Doubles (3rd Topic in #899!)

[Firestorm]

Lack of sleep clause barely does anything. All it does is artificially nerf Breloom and Amoonguss for no good reason other than to make up for bad teambuilding. Short but decent discussion on sleep clause can be found here if anyone is interested.

Originally Posted by Fat Darkmalice

I'm guessing this is one of your decent TR teams; the one I played against?

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles9300722

It was a good match.

Yeah, that's my main team. It's identical to my VGC team. I haven't bothered updating EVs for LV100, lack of item clause, to account for the ubers that are allowed in this format, lack of sleep clause, or the fact that you can use all six mons but it still works great imo! Taunt + Fake Out is a great way to stop a turn 1 Trick Room if it's something you don't need to overcommit on and reversing it is also great. One of these days I'll finally remember that Tornadus gets defiant XD That was a good game indeed!

[Braverius]

Even though I disagree that they're different (for recent evidence, see: Firestorm's post above, Crow380 at #15 getting there with his VGC team in less than 1 hour), I think we should hold off discussion on that topic here, since this isn't the thread to discuss it in. I was making a point of what/what not to discuss rather than wanting to bring that up, anyways.

I do totally agree that you need synergy, though. For example, using 6 water types while spamming Surf and bending over backward to switch the useless-anyways-if-it-sits-on-the-field rain-inducing punching bag Politoed around is silly and will get you beat by any solid player. However, using 3 rain-dependent mons and 3 other solid Pokemon that can benefit from rain but do not depend on it (Escavalier, Thundurus, Heracross, and Amoonguss come to mind) can actually be legitimate, because the Pokemon in the back can support the rain Pokemon, benefit from rain being up, but function well outside of rain so you don't have to switch predictably in order to keep rain up, and serve as checks to its counters.

A few things I still disagree on, since you don't have evidence for your claims against any high-tier teams yet:

My point is basically just because a pokemon is VGC standard, doesn't mean its automatically amazing in doubles.

I used two of my VGC teams slammed together to get to the top. Never re-did spreads or anything. I found that replacing Heracross with Shaymin-S was decent, but not that great. Most of the legendaries allowed aren't spectacular, but things like Deoxys-Speed with Screens, Shaymin-S in general, and both permitted Kyurems are good ideas to be explored.

I don't enjoy standard teams and prefer trolly/different teams.

That's fine, play what you have fun with, but I have no idea what this is getting at from a metagame analysis standpoint.


And just to answer this briefly:

...

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The biggest difference I can think of between VGC and smog doubles is the time limit vs no turn limit.

Both have the same time limit on a simulator.

[Audiosurfer]

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

@ the Volc/Tran argument, Volcarona IS good with support.. but thats just based on my experiences, maybe you think differently. Heatran might be cool with certain strats but I personally haven't seen many yet, I like its potential to wall certain pokemon though. PS at the wide guard protecting from surf comment, hydro pump/scald have become common on rain now, much as stone edge is starting to build in popularity but as of now the only ground type moves I see are EQ and earth power and you can predict an earth power a mile away. I prefer fake out support for Volcarona over wide guard support and so running protect is essential if you'd like to use fake out support, wide guard support is a gamble as any decently backed stone edge will ohko volc!

Personally I found stall a highly viable strategy in doubles as boosting is not as viable and resistances and bulk are probably more important in doubles than singles as you see a lot less outrages and such. What are opinions on using stall (or semi stall) teams.


PPS: My Chansey + Shuckle is countered by:

1. Taunt
2. Leech seed/Seed flare
2. Sleep powder
3. Preventing set up (through rage powder as Braverius did or otherwise)

And I am aware of that, but it doesn't necessarily make it a "useless" strat. I simply enjoyed trolling with it :P

In the Volc/Heatran discussion, I did say that Volcarona was viable, if you read through the posts. That wasn't what was being contested. It's Heatran's viability. I do agree with you that Heatran's resistances are a huge point in why it's viable, along with Flash Fire, with both of these being able to carve out a niche for it. Anyways, I'm not gonna talk about it too much since most of what I have to say was said already in my previous posts, but Heatran isn't outclassed by Volcarona, as they both have seperate functions (ik you didn't say that it was but that was what the discussion was about).

In terms of stall's viability, I don't think stall is very viable. Double-targeting, spread moves, and the ability of a partner to take care of mons that would normally wall one pokemon all lend to making stall significantly less viable. I think that the closest you can get to stall is bulky offense. If you don't have a way of dishing out damage when you tank a hit, then you're just going to get smashed through the next turn, since you won't be dealing notable damage due to the decreased viability of entry hazards (although SR can work well) and the fact that your moves will be hitting for a lot lower damage than their moves You could try Toxic-stalling, but usually trying that ends up with your Pokemon dead due to getting torn through by the opposition, since that takes way too long to work.

[Crow350]

Aw dang I got mentioned so I guess that means I have to give my input now, huh?

Ok first things first: I know this isn't VGC. But seriously guys, when I can take what I consider a bad VGC team and use it successfully perhaps you need to reconsider if there's really a reason to have Smogon Doubles. Now this may be to the tier being relatively new and the majority of players haven't figured out doubles yet and I get that comes with time. I just think you might want to re-evaluate the tier in a couple months if VGC players are still wrecking with their teams.

And now for some random other observations:
I'm also of the opinion that sleep clause is completely pointless. I see an Amoonguss or Breloom and just don't care. I can sleep something and not have to worry about it anymore. And it's not like sleep is even that big of a deal; I have five other pokemon to deal with the opponent. I guess my point here is that sleep is much more devastating in VGC and we function quite well without sleep clause, so what's the point of having it here?

I'm a big fan of evasion clause. Although it could be up for debate if this clause is necessary, not having to deal with (for lack of a better term) that bullshit is fantastic.

Bulk is still king, stall doesn't work.

Trick room is for the most part an autopilot team. Very rarely do you actually have to think when using TR here.

I'm see a lot of championing of lesser used pokemon. Imo trying gimmicks and subpar pokemon in a developing metagame isn't healthy for it. Do it once you have a solid meta and can actually say "just because a pokemon is VGC standard, doesn't mean its automatically amazing in doubles."

Anyway, falling asleep writing this. If it's not deleted for talking about VGC perhaps more to come later.

[Firestorm]

It's a format not a tier!

tier

1 [teer] Show IPA
noun 1. one of a series of rows or ranks rising one behind or above another, as of seats in an amphitheater, boxes in a theater, guns in a man-of-war, or oars in an ancient galley.

2. one of a number of galleries, as in a theater.

3. a layer; level; stratum: The wedding cake had six tiers. All three tiers of the firm's management now report to one director.

4. Australian. a mountain range.


verb (used with object) 5. to arrange in tiers.

I swear to god Crow I'll slap you when I see you!!! >:( >:( >:(

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat Firestorm

It's a format not a tier!

lol, I think PS is the only thing that actually uses the word "format" to describe metas. Even PO calls them tiers.

[Braverius]

Originally Posted by Fat Firestorm

I swear to god Crow I'll slap you when I see you!!! >:( >:( >:(

This is assuming a lot.

[Crow350]

Originally Posted by Fat Firestorm

It's a format not a tier!

I swear to god Crow I'll slap you when I see you!!! >:( >:( >:(

Wait so this isn't a system based on multi-leveled cakes? I feel cheated.

[Pocket]

Originally Posted by Fat Darkmalice

I just want to side-track the discussion for a bit to talk about Leftovers; Pocket wanted it to be Topic of the Week though no one actually talked about it. (It might be better to include Topic of the Weeks as a separate thread so that it doesn't disrupt the discussion).

Topic of the Week #1: Leftovers

---

Leftovers is one of the most common item in Singles ever since items were introduced in GSC. However, does Leftovers have a place in Smogon Doubles???


Here are some guiding questions:

~ What qualities should a Pokemon possess to make the most use of Leftovers in Doubles?

~ Provide a moveset with Leftovers

~ Is Sitrus Berry Leftovers of Smogon Doubles? When does Leftovers outweigh the immediate 25% recovery of Sitrus Berry?

Long story short, Leftovers is better when Sitrus Berry if you get 5 turns of recovery from it, worse if you get <4 turns, and the same if you get 4 turns. Therefore, Leftovers is better on Pokemon that usually survive at least 5 turns on the field.

Qualities that are more likely to survive this many turns include:

1) Bulk. This is a given

2) Typing. Bulk by itself mean nothing if you're weak to many types. For example, Terrakion on the basis of stats is a bulky attacker, but this bulk is undermined by its horrid defensive typing (alas it's excellent offensively).

3) Pokemon that abuse turn-stalling strategies. Protect is the obvious example, but it can be amplified with other moves like Substitute. Leech Seed + Protect/Substitute is another strategy. Boosting defensive stats, like with Cosmic Power, also stall for time. Calm Mind and Quiver Dance are also included, but to a lesser extent.

4) Keeping your Pokemon on the field during turns in which it won't be taking much damage, and keeping your Pokemon off the field when it would otherwise take significant damage. This is the most complex quality, but perhaps the most important. For example, Cresselia takes little damage from most attacks and you will commonly find turns with which it takes little damage against both opponents, even if they both double target it. Cress may only be taking about 20% damage per turn, and as long as it continues to remain like this, she will easily make good use of Leftovers. But if you keep Cress in against Volcarona, it can be 2HKOed by Bug Buzz. Leftovers won't help if Cress takes two hits from Bug Buzz, but Sitrus Berry may make Cress avoid the 2HKO. However, this calc is much less relevant if you switch Cress out.

This quality depends not only on the Pokemon itself, but its teammates. For example, it's a lot more risky to switch Cress out of Volcarona's Bug Buzz if your entire team is 2HKOed by it. It's much easier to do so if you have a Heatran on the bench, ready to switch in. Generally, teams with bulkier Mons and greater defensive type synergy create more opportunities for switching that lead to keeping Pokemon on the field during times when they can take less damage. HO teams, however, won't get nearly as many opportunities.

Similarly, if you have teammates that can lessen the damage that your Pokemon takes, Leftovers becomes a better choice. For example, teams utilizing dual screens, and a Ferorthorn on a rain team to protect it from Fire-type attacks (and it still takes Water-type attacks well)

This also extends to the purpose that Cress carries for the team. If your Cress has TR, and you're using a TR team that needs TR active to function, you may be more keen to keep Cress in to take the Bug Buzz to set up TR. If you have a Dusclops waiting on the bench, you may decide to switch out Cress to Dusclops to take the Bug Buzz and then eat a Heat Wave as it sets up TR. If Cress is your only TR user, you have to weigh up the cons between trying to keep your precious Cress fit as long as possible or to set up TR and risk losing her early.


Generally, Pokemon that make good use of Leftovers have a combination of these factors and not just one. For example, Musharna is bulky, but it generally lacks any time-stalling moves (Protect included), and if it's used on a hyper-offensive TR team, it may not get many opportunities to switch out.

To give examples of good Leftover uses, look at my team. It is a bulky team with great type synergy, so switching out is generally quite easy with this team. Cresselia is very bulky, and I have teammates that can easily take all the attacks that it is weak too; consequently, I found Leftovers better than Sitrus Berry.

My Heatran is bulky, is part of a FWG core, and has Substitute + Protect for time stalling. Cress has Skill Swap and Sunny Day to remove two of its 3 weaknesses, and Gastrodon helps alleviate its Water-type weakness too. Once again, I found Leftovers > Sitrus Berry usually.

My Gastrodon is bulky, has only 1 weakness and can time stall well too with Recover + Stockpile, especially if TR is up. It is a good Leftovers user. However, I'd say Leftovers is only marginally better than Sitrus (on a different team with which switching is harder, I might prefer Sitrus). It is prone to double attacks and receiving heavy damage before it gets KOed, especially considering that it lacks Protect. If it takes a Grass-type attack before I get a Stockpile boost, it probably won't survive.


Finally, it should be said that Leftovers is never always better than Sitrus Berry and vice-versa. For example, I've had some battles in which Gastrodon has survived 10+ turns, but others in which it got KOed after its second turn and Sitrus Berry would have made it live another turn.

Excellent post, Darkmalice! I had a blast reading your RMT and watching over your replays! I am glad it tied in perfectly with the topic of the week :)

Volcarona and Heatran are both powerhouses from my experience. I find a Volcarona sweep much easier to pull off in Doubles than in Singles. Volcarona always find itself forced out by impenetrable walls or revenge killers, but in Doubles you can pair it up with teammate that can eliminate such threats. Fake Out users are also great in setting up QDs. I find Weavile to be the perfect partner for Volcarona, mainly because it can dispatch Dragons and Terrakion before they can retaliate (plus Fake Out).

Heatran in the other hand is a fearsome TR sweeper. It's not hard to support Heatran with Trick Room, Sunny Day, and even Helping Hand support to absolutely demolish everything with its super-powerful Heat Wave and Eruption spread moves. It also possesses plethora of useful resistances that allows it many switch-ins against mons like opposing Chandelure, Metagross, and Ferrothorn.

If anything, I find Chandelure a major disappointment. It cannot set itself up for an unstoppable sweep like Volcarona, and neither does it have the tankiness of Heatran. My experience in facing Chandelure has been quite underwhelming. Is there any particular perks for using Chandelure over Volcarona and Heatran?

I am excited to see many VGC players checking out Standard Doubles! It seems like most of you do not appreciate the Sleep Clause, and it's understandable, seeing from where you originate. Be aware, though, is that our primary mission is to cultivate a stronger doubles culture within Smogon community, which is primarily single-oriented. We want this community to accept and embrace Doubles as a Pokemon format, and ultimately make this metagame official. Thus to attract singles players, we decided to keep the familiar clauses from the Singles metagame. Once this metagame grow in player base and become an official metagame of Smogon, we may consider testing these clauses.

[Braverius]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Our primary mission is to cultivate a stronger doubles culture within Smogon community, which is primarily single-oriented. We want this community to accept and embrace Doubles as a Pokemon format, and ultimately make this metagame official. Thus to attract singles players, we decided to keep the familiar clauses from the Singles metagame. Once this metagame grow in player base and become an official metagame of Smogon, we may consider testing these clauses.

When it's explained this way, it makes sense and actually is an excellent idea. I never really thought that bridging the gap between the two metagames might be a big step toward growing the doubles formats, but it likely could be, and is a great attempt to try to grow the community. The majority of people don't like to step outside of their comfort zone, so bringing this format closer to their comfort zone and moving them along makes sense. Also, this explains the thought behind the type of discussion you want on this thread- exploratory discussion geared at future advancements, but not putting up walls between the formats. Thanks for clearing the air on that ^_^




More of a strategy note: some things won't ever be the same or be able to be related without some negative backlash in learning how to play this format, though, such as "sweeping". I don't think relying on a Pokemon to sweep in doubles is ever a legitimate strategy. Sure, it may have a tendency to run train and be more offensive-based, but you have to be more flexible and do more than simply try to set up things. You have to adjust on the fly, and be ready for what your opponent does moreso than be prepared to set up your own strategy. This means that the Pokemon combination you're using to "sweep" has to be able to break up and go on its own more often than not, which is why a team has to be really fluid and cohesive.

Use the opponent's likely plays and threats to your current situation to make your move rather than worrying about your own "setup", because like I said, it won't work against most archetypes since doubles is so much more broad. Don't get me wrong, it's never bad to use some good "setup" combos (Cresselia Swagger on Metagross, Hitmontop with Quiver Volcarona, Trick Room on a slower, bulkier team), but relying on that against every single team archetype is not something that you can do and expect to win. Consider it more of a secondhand option if available rather than a priority to set up, and worry more about what attacks are coming your way and how you can improvise based on that.

Chandelure, in my experience (sheer opinion, but might as well throw it out there), is more consistent than Heatran and Volcarona, as it provides a good balance of defense and offense, along with having some alternate uses than simply setting up to attack more easily, such as Trick Room and Trick with a Choice item.

[youngjake93]

Chandelure also has Imprison. You can couple it with Trick Room/Protect to disrupt the opponent. You can couple it with Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse to protect yourself. You can couple it with Hidden Power/Energy Ball to make a bulky Gastrodon partner pretty invincible if they don't carry Giga Drain something.
Plus Chandelure has the highest sAtt and 2 immunities(immune to Fake Out! Close Combat! and Explosion!).
Scarf Heat Wave Chandelure can sweep just like TR Heatran without TR support.

[NidoJosh]

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Chandelure also has Imprison. You can couple it with Trick Room/Protect to disrupt the opponent. You can couple it with Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse to protect yourself. You can couple it with Hidden Power/Energy Ball to make a bulky Gastrodon partner pretty invincible if they don't carry Giga Drain something.
Plus Chandelure has the highest sAtt and 2 immunities(immune to Fake Out! Close Combat! and Explosion!).
Scarf Heat Wave Chandelure can sweep just like TR Heatran without TR support.

The issue that I have with running Chandelure like this is that it's highly situational and is actually dependent on your opponent running those moves. I can see it working for Protect but otherwise I see it as a wasted moveslot

I think it's main selling point is its high Special Attack stat that is usable in this format

[thecrowing2k8]

Hi. I'm trying to break into this format and I'm noticing these older VGC strategies that I'm not familiar with, but a lot of experienced players are. For Example, TerraCott is very annoying and I find I need to run fast opening mons or priority to handle them. I've come to the conclusion that I need to target Whimsicott first, but the threat of Terrakion is stressfull lol.

Aside from that, are there any other strong cores out there now that are potentially destructive aside from TerraCott. I feel that I need to gear towards a few sound cores as opposed to creating a rain team with 5 swift swimmers lol.

[youngjake93]

Originally Posted by Fat thecrowing2k8

Hi. I'm trying to break into this format and I'm noticing these older VGC strategies that I'm not familiar with, but a lot of experienced players are. For Example, TerraCott is very annoying and I find I need to run fast opening mons or priority to handle them. I've come to the conclusion that I need to target Whimsicott first, but the threat of Terrakion is stressfull lol.

Aside from that, are there any other strong cores out there now that are potentially destructive aside from TerraCott. I feel that I need to gear towards a few sound cores as opposed to creating a rain team with 5 swift swimmers lol.

Fake Out and Protect used correctly derails most strategies. The two most anti-meta Pokemon are Hitmontop and Gastrodon imo, so you could try those out if your goal is to handle as many opposing threats as possible.
Rage Powder/Follow Me users(Amoonguss, Togekiss) and Prankster users(Sableye, Whimsicott, Murkrow, Thundurus-I) are also pretty good at derailing opposing threats.

But.. you will need to focus on offense as well. Stall can be done, but it is very prone to being dismantled by your opponent and requires perfect precision. General rule of thumb is to go bulky offense for easier success. Metagross, Kyurem-B, Tyranitar and Pokemon like that can take a hit AND dish one out are good to start with. The usage stats will let you know roughly what people use a lot of.

Don't be afraid to experiment once you get the hang of it though. For example, I've seen Mantine used successfully and gain some popularity and it didn't really fall into the standard popular choices at first.

[Pocket]

Thanks for the input on the last topic of the week, guys! The best topic poster goes to Darkmalice who went into elaborate details about the quality of an ideal leftovers users and provided an concrete example of leftovers in action through his exemplar doubles RMT: Wreck-It Ralph. Close second goes to Audiosurfer and Carl. They both provided interesting insight as to the different conditions that make Leftovers or Sitrus Berry the superior item. Audiosurfer states that Leftovers is a more useful item for Substitute users and provided a solid example in SubSeed Abomasnow, while Carl states that Follow Me / Rage Powder users prefer Sitrus Berry for the immediate 25% recovery to take both enemy hits better. The point breakdown for participants are as follows:

+3 - Darkmalice
+2 - Audiosurfer & Carl
+1 - BlankZero, NidoJosh, Pwnemon, The Exeggutor, & youngjake93

Now let's move on to the second topic of the week: Trick Room!



A few pages ago, to my surprise, one or two posters have stated that Trick Room is underwhelming / non-prevalent! However, in reality, Trick Room is among the most potent environment modifier that exists in doubles. This will be a nice opportunity for newcomers of doubles (as like myself) to discuss and explore about this prevalent strategy, while the more experienced doubles players to share their insights.

Here are some guiding questions:

• Provide an example and explain one of the prominent TR setters
• Provide an example and explain one of the prominent TR sweepers
• How high can a TR sweeper's base Speed reach before sweeping in TR becomes unfeasible?
• When two Trick Room teams face each other, how should each of them fight?
• Is a relatively fast Iron Ball (ie Iron Ball Kyurem) user a viable alternative as a TR sweeper, or would a player benefit more from using naturally slow Pokemon whose free to use power-boosting items (ie CB Druddigon / Zweilous)?
• Are semi-TR teams, which do not heavily depend on an active TR, more effective than a full-TR team?
• Are "defensive" TR teams feasible (cue @ Darkmalice ;D)

For future reference, if you need to know the topic of the week, simply click the "Topic of the Week" link of this thread's leaderboard ;)

[Joim]

I've used Trick Room in Doubles to some success.
Cresselia, Slowbro, and Slowking are my favourite Trick Room setters. They have bulk, they have good abilities, and they can be really slow. It's pretty difficult to KO them in one turn, especially Cresselia, it takes even Dark-type moves and U-turns like a boss. Cresselia proves to be a helpful asset in Trick Room, not needing t-wave or icy wind anymore, providing Helping Hand, screens, and or Skill Swap with Heatran or other foes weaker to Earthquake than it. It's best to run both Cresselia and one of the Slows, I usually favour Slowbro to take the common physical attacks.

The best TR sweepers are Reuniclus and Conkeldurr bar none. These guys wreck. Reuniclus can set up TR itself and it will destroy anything with a Helped Hand Psyshock, Focus Blast, or Shadow Ball. Guts burnt Conkeldurr will deal heavy blows with Hammer Arm or Drain Punch, Rock Slide or Payback, and Mach Punch even to the resisting foes. Reuniclus is pretty bulky as well and is either immune to status or can use Regenerator, so it will probably survive through the match to deal heavy blows. It won't go unnoticed.

While they are the slowest sweepers for Trick Room, a negative nature and 0 IVs in Speed some time can do the trick. Some Pokemon like Kyurem-b have been proven good in TR, being outsped by its dragon brothers normally. It's true that support slow mons like Amoonguss will still be faster in TR, but it'll be faster than opposing sweeper forces. I'd say any mon below 100 speed can get slow enough to be of use in a TR team, especially if you add Iron Ball for the extra speed.

While Iron Ball makes sure you are going to be slow, you are losing a lot of power, so I'd sacrifice some TR-speed for the sheer power a Choice Band or a Gem can give. That might give you trouble against opposing Trick Room teams, but the power is worth it. Anyways, against other Trick Roomers, you gotta think which team will benefit more from Trick Room to either fight to keep it on or to keep it out, as Trick Room cancels itself upon repeated use. That's where a less slower TR sweeper like Kyu-b or other semi-TR Pokemon might come in handy, you'll have the power to cancel TR in several mons and you will then outspeed the opposing TR force.

[The Exeggutor]

Originally Posted by Fat Joim

I've used Trick Room in Doubles to some success.
Cresselia, Slowbro, and Slowking are my favourite Trick Room setters. They have bulk, they have good abilities, and they can be really slow. It's pretty difficult to KO them in one turn, especially Cresselia, it takes even Dark-type moves and U-turns like a boss. Cresselia proves to be a helpful asset in Trick Room, not needing t-wave or icy wind anymore, providing Helping Hand, screens, and or Skill Swap with Heatran or other foes weaker to Earthquake than it. It's best to run both Cresselia and one of the Slows, I usually favour Slowbro to take the common physical attacks.

The best TR sweepers are Reuniclus and Conkeldurr bar none. These guys wreck. Reuniclus can set up TR itself and it will destroy anything with a Helped Hand Psyshock, Focus Blast, or Shadow Ball. Guts burnt Conkeldurr will deal heavy blows with Hammer Arm or Drain Punch, Rock Slide or Payback, and Mach Punch even to the resisting foes. Reuniclus is pretty bulky as well and is either immune to status or can use Regenerator, so it will probably survive through the match to deal heavy blows. It won't go unnoticed.

While they are the slowest sweepers for Trick Room, a negative nature and 0 IVs in Speed some time can do the trick. Some Pokemon like Kyurem-b have been proven good in TR, being outsped by its dragon brothers normally. It's true that support slow mons like Amoonguss will still be faster in TR, but it'll be faster than opposing sweeper forces. I'd say any mon below 100 speed can get slow enough to be of use in a TR team, especially if you add Iron Ball for the extra speed.

While Iron Ball makes sure you are going to be slow, you are losing a lot of power, so I'd sacrifice some TR-speed for the sheer power a Choice Band or a Gem can give. That might give you trouble against opposing Trick Room teams, but the power is worth it. Anyways, against other Trick Roomers, you gotta think which team will benefit more from Trick Room to either fight to keep it on or to keep it out, as Trick Room cancels itself upon repeated use. That's where a less slower TR sweeper like Kyu-b or other semi-TR Pokemon might come in handy, you'll have the power to cancel TR in several mons and you will then outspeed the opposing TR force.

Excellent post by joim here, i'll go more in-depth with a post in a bit and i'll even break down my trick room team for the people

[StarmanXL]

I personally like using the Slows for TR setting, since they get a good amount of moves to abuse under TR (gogo flamethrower) and are all in all pretty reliable.

Interesting that you mention Conkeldurr. I'm not gonna say he's not a great TR poke because he is, but what about Hariyama? It's not as strong or as slow, but it's still pretty fierce with Guts boosted STAB Close Combats coming from a base 120 attack. Not to mention one of the nice things it gets is Fake Out. I've found that to be pretty useful for getting Trick Room set up first turn, or buying time later if you switch him out and back in again. Granted, that's probably the only thing it has over Conkeldurr, but it's saved my ass enough that I think it warrants use.

[Mr.E]

As nice as Fake Out is, Conkeldurr has a lot more going for it overall. Unless you really gotta have it, and I don't think anything is ever "required," Conk is slower (faster in TR) and stronger as you said. Technically, Hariyama hits harder because it uses Close Combat but the difference is minimal over Hammer Arm Conkeldurr, who also doesn't lower its own defenses and makes itself even slower to boot. Conk can also opt for Drain Punch and has access to Mach Punch.

I've only recently gotten into Gen 5/Doubles by trying my hand at VGC. Aside the fact that most of my Smogon friends are now the Nuggetbridge crowd, I just sorta had a hankering for building a Gothitelle team. Shadow Tag is just so incredibly broken and I kinda wondered why nobody bothers to abuse it. Anyway, the team's basically a TR team with a couple of higher-speed mons in the wings for wiggle room out of it, so I have experience with it.

The primary reason TR is such a threat is that it's contrary to all other forms of speed control. Icy Wind and paralysis slow the opposition. Tailwind speeds your guys up. Weather teams utilize their respective abilities for speed. Choice Scarf, Speed Boost, whatever. It's all about being faster. Not only does Trick Room turn all of these methods of "going first" around on their users but it's wasting their items and EVs. Hell, a TR team will naturally have better stats overall just by virtue of using a bunch of slow mons, since obviously lower speed means more base stats distributed elsewhere. (e.g. Conkeldurr's BST is 75 less than Terrakion's. Minus Speed, it's only 12 less.) And since you're not playing the same game as everyone else, no "sorry Scarfchomp, you still lose to Scarf Latios" situations except against other TR players.

Best TR setters would have to be Ghosts due to their Fake Out immunity. Eviolite Dusclops is the slowest and bulkiest of the bunch but it's complete Taunt bait with no significant offense of its own and inability to hold a Mental Herb. Jellicent and Chandelure can hold them but it's hardly necessary since they pose enough of an offensive threat to dissuade Taunt, though Jellicent needs to be fresh to threaten a big Water Spout. Jellicent is still fairly bulky with a great typing and slow enough to operate well under TR. Chandelure is a better secondary user, or anti-TR mon with Imprison, since it's kinda too fast to optimize use of TR personally but it does hurt like the dickens. Obviously there are plenty of other reasons to use any number of the Psychics instead, plus of course there's Porygon2, but as far as just setting up TR is concerned the Ghosts are winners.

I always like to make sure I have a backup plan, so I'm not big on "pure" TR teams anymore than I am not having an attacking move on supporters (such as Night Shade on Dusclops or Giga Drain on Whimsicott) to evade Taunt and double-target if necessary. I like having something fast as a backup plan or for possible clean-up duty after TR wears off, in fact the bulk of Team Goth's victories are QD Volcarona sweeps, but I don't think even pure TR teams are as dependent on it as other teams are on their own field effects. Bulky, slow goodstuff like Conkeldurr and Metagross generally expect to take hits and dish them back out even harder as it is, Trick Room is just like a nice bonus to have more than a necessity. Ferrothorn and Gastrodon still hard wall a ton of things. You'll see all these mons even on non-TR teams. On the other hand, typical weather sweepers are worthless outside of their weather (or inside TR :P).

[StarmanXL]

I suppose you're right about Hariyama. I guess I just really like my fake out-ing sumo wrestler. But yes, god damn is shadow tag annoying. I faced a shadow tag + perish song team yesterday and it completely destroyed me (didn't help that I made a huge misplay first turn and didn't get Escavalier in in time, otherwise I might have had a chance).

I have to agree with you about TR team. Unless you have a TR team yourself or some contingency plan (or simply a goodstuff's team with a few bulky mons and some smart Protect use) it's really easy to get steamrolled by one.

[Bent1ey]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr.E

As nice as Fake Out is, Conkeldurr has a lot more going for it overall. Unless you really gotta have it, and I don't think anything is ever "required," Conk is slower (faster in TR) and stronger as you said. Technically, Hariyama hits harder because it uses Close Combat but the difference is minimal over Hammer Arm Conkeldurr, who also doesn't lower its own defenses and makes itself even slower to boot. Conk can also opt for Drain Punch and has access to Mach Punch.

Feint is a pretty big plus for Hariyama, if you actually want to kill your opponent during your Trick Room turns you have to keep it from Protecting against your every attack. There is also Belly Drum, but admittedly that's not necesarily somethign akin or important for Trick Room. Hariyama plays better the support role because of the additional bulk, and you can choose to run Sheer Force for a powerful Rock Slide. Different options, but both are solid pokes.

[The Exeggutor]

Trick room, to me has always been one of the most effective play styles in any doubles format, from vgc to smogon doubles i've been using the play style for nearly 3 years now, and it has yet to fail me. It allows many pokemon, who in other words would be bad, be good. Such pokemon like Rhyperior or Marowak who struggle outside of trick room, are two of the scariest mons within. The main team i've used in Smog Dubs, is a hail room team, being able to abuse Abomasnows mediocre speed, powerful spread move, and the anti meta weather make it a very fun and a very successful team in my eyes.

...

---

Jellicent @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Scald
- Shadow Ball
- Protect

Amoonguss @ Mental Herb
Trait: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Giga Drain
- Protect

Kyurem-Black @ Chople Berry
Trait: Teravolt
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Dragon Claw
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt
- Protect

Abomasnow @ Expert Belt
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Cresselia (F) @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Rest
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Helping Hand

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Protect

The main leads for this team are of course either Jellicent and Amooongus, or Cresselia and Amoongus, depends on my opponents team. Allowing me to get pretty much guaranteed trick room. With double protect to stop fake out users, and rage powder Amoongus to get up trick room for sure. Amoongus can proceed to spore and Cresselia/Jellicent can either attack or switch


The main heavy hitters on the team are Kyurem-b, Abomasnow and Eruption Tran. All dangerous in their own way Kyurem-b with Dragon Claw and Fusion bolt to be able to hit things super hard and either Earth power or Blizzard for the last move slot. Abomasnow is the anti weather and deals with bulky waters, dragons and flying pokemon alike thanks to it's stab coverage. HP fire is used for Ferrothorn and the odd scizor due to the weakness my teams have to them. The last heavy hitter is Heatran, Eruption tran in trickroom is one of the scariest mons in the game. Fire blast is used against wide guard teams or when the HP is to low to be effective enough and earth power is for Heatran and Chandy who think they can switch in. All of these paired with Cresselia's helping hand or Amoongus using rage powder, gives excellent support to the already heavy hitters with boosting their attacks or prolonging their life respectively.


The key to an effective trick room team is to have a team that doesn't necessarily need trick room up to be successful. I wouldn't suggest running Pokemon like Rampardos, who is slower then dirt and is frail as paper, sure it's good in trick room, but it's to much of a liability. Build a team that is a little bulkier or pokemon that can work inside or out of trick room.

I've reached high 1900's with this team, and if you want to steal it and use it for yourself i'm giving you full permission in this post

[Dia]

My TR team kicks ass. I just use 4 TR sweepers and 2 cleaners. I have done significantly better in this meta than in others. My average is high 1600s while it's 1400s in ou.
Shaymin S is great in this meta.

[Pocket]

I'm happy with the feedback thus far - especially MrE for his comprehensive presentation of Trick Room and Exeggutor's generosity in sharing her team with us! Keep them coming!

Joim: Yea, it seems like Conkeldurr is the second best Trick Room user outside of ErupTran. Reuniclus is also a certainly cool alternative over Cresselia if you want a more offensive TR setter, and I can see it pairing well with Amoonguss & Conkeldurr ;d

Speaking of Conkeldurr, is Guts @ Flame Orb the best choice for it? The 50% Atk boost is nice, but with Pokemon spamming Protect, Conkeldurr can wear down fast. I was thinking maybe even Iron Fist or Sheer Force @ Life Orb may be better options for durr.

IFist pretty much provides Conky's STAB moves and elemental punches 20% attack boost, and combine that with LO boost it actually gives more power than Flame Orb boost (1.56 > 1.5), and with only 10% recoil every turn it attacks (meaning you can't Protect-stall).

Sheer Force @ LO is another interesting option. Sheer Force unfortunately does not provide any boost to Durr's main STAB moves, but they do receive LO boost. What's appealing about this combination: Sheer Force powers elemental punches and Rock Slide without LO recoil, and this cumulative boost being the biggest of them all (1.3*1.3=1.69).

So in either case, Iron Fist or Sheer Force @ Life Orb provides a greater boost than Guts boost most of the time with less recoil damage. Guts Conkeldurr ensures that it wont be crippled by a burn, but it should not be that hard to avoid this status affliction anyways.. Even if you want protection from burn, I'd probably still use Life Orb on Guts Conkeldurr, just so it doesn't wear down as fast when unstatused.

[Audiosurfer]

I agree with Pocket that the burn damage on Conkeldurr can really hinder it. While the power boost is nice, Conkeldurr is hardly a tank, and any reasonably powerful attack takes a huge chunk out of it. While in singles this isn't as bad since it can live the hit and retaliate with a Drain Punch, in Doubles it can be double targetted, or Protect can be used to prevent you from hitting one mon while the other attacks you. I think both sets you talked about are pretty great. I'll have to try them out sometime.
In terms of why TR is so strong, I think it's that people tend to under-prepare for it, as well as the fact that it counters common preventative measures for sweepers being used. For the most part, people tend to overprepare for weather teams and then leave themselves weak to TR, usually just figuring that they can Protect stall out TR or maneuver their way around it, which leads to them losing their Pokemon to a TR sweeper. Also, most times, when people think of sweepers, they expect fast and frail, so they'll add some speed control on their team and call it a day. While that can work against traditional sweepers, in TR the sweepers are usually slow and bulky, so trying to control their speed only helps them. Also, when building teams, alot of times people might center around a speedy threat that can rampage through a team (Kingdra, Excadrill, Blaziken) but then they find themselves in a tight spot when TR is up and their Excadrill is getting "outsped" and OHKO'd by Rhyperior.