(Discussion) Stat Boosts

[Dogfish44]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused.

Stat boosts are one of the many facets of ASB everyone would fix and knows exactly how, but nobody has ever bothered to do anything about. Thankfully a huge number of solutions were put forward when this was asked about, so let's see who's got the best ideas. Here's our current system:

Stat Changing Moves:

Stat boosters/drops will work exactly as they do in-game, boosting as many stages as is stated in the attack. +2 and +3 Stat boosts always last for at least two actions after use, and +1/+1 boosts always last for four actions from +0, so strategic placement of stat boosters is a skill you can utilize in battle. During the third action of a round (after the damage is calculated and applied to the opponent), whatever boost/drop a Pokemon has will be moved towards a zero stage boost, and any boosts/drops they would get from their 3rd action are moved forward to apply to the next round. Single stage boosters/drops will be balanced by locking the boost rate in for the round, e.g. if you Howl once, you will not lose the +1 boost at the end of the round, it will carry over to the next round.

The actual impact on damage is as follows:

Each stage (+1/+2 etc.) adds/subtracts 1.75 damage from the final calculated damage. This is applied before any final rounding of the numbers. Below is a reference for how much damage to add/subtract for each stage.

Stage  Boost     Speed (100 Base)
+6     +10.50    1050
+5     +08.75    0875
+4     +07.00    0700 
+3     +05.25    0525
+2     +03.50    0350
+1     +01.75    0175
+0     +00.00    0100
-1     -01.75    0057
-2     -03.50    0028
-3     -05.25    0019
-4     -07.00    0014
-5     -08.75    0011
-6     -10.50    0009

Calculating Speed Boosters:

For Speed, each of these acts as a multiplier on Base Speed for positive values, and a divisor on negative values (no boosts uses the regular Base Speed). Ex: A Pokemon with 100 Spe at +1 has 175 Spe, and the same Pokemon at -1 has 57 Spe. Always Truncate the Speed. This makes Speed Boosters and droppers about equivalent to how they act on actual speeds in the cartridge, even though the values are increased.

General Rules:

• Boosts only ever reset +1 or -1 toward 0 at the end of a round.
• +1 Stat Boosts/Drops received from non-damaging moves (Meditate, Leer, etc.) have that stat maintained at the end of the round in which they were used. To continue to lock the stat for future rounds, the moves must be used again in those rounds, otherwise they will begin to decrement as normal. Otherwise, these are treated the same as the +1/+1 Stat Boosts/Drops as noted below. Moves treated this way have the phrase "This move locks its changed stat for the round within which it was used." in their Data Audit thread description.
• +2 and +3 Stat Boosts/Drops (Swords Dance, Tail Glow, etc.) and +2 or +3 Boosting/Dropping components of other moves (Shift Gear's Speed boost, etc.) changed from 0 last for at least 2 actions after the usage action before being prone to resetting toward 0.
• +1/+1 Stat Boosts/Drops (Calm Mind, Quiver Dance, Bulk Up, etc.) and +1 Stat Boosts/Drops with Damage (Charge, Close Combat, Low Sweep, etc.) changed from 0 last for at least 4 actions after the usage action before being prone to resetting toward 0.
• The action counts above do not include the action taken to activate the boosting or dropping move itself.

Examples:

Zangoose with Swords Dance and Hone Claws

Zangoose Example

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Slash ~ Fury Swipes ~ Swords Dance

Zangoose will have no stat boosts at the time of either Slash. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the end of the next round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack.

Slash ~ Swords Dance ~ Fury Swipes

At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have no boosts. At the time of Fury Swipes, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the end of the next round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack.

Slash ~ Fury Swipes ~ Hone Claws

At the time of Slash and Fury Swipes, Zangoose will have no boosts. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the end of the next round, Zangoose will still have +1 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have no boosts again.

Slash ~ Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance

Zangoose will have no boosts at the time of Slash. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +4 Attack. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +3 Attack.

Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance ~ Slash

At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +4 Attack. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +3 Attack. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +2 Attack.

Hone Claws ~ Slash ~ Swords Dance

At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +1 Attack & Accuracy. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +3 Attack and +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +2 Attack.

Swords Dance ~ Slash ~ Hone Claws

At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +3 Attack and +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +2 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +1 Attack.

Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance

At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +5 Attack.

Swords Dance ~ Hone Claws ~ Slash

At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +3 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +2 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +1 Attack.

Toxicroak with Meditate and Swords Dance.

Toxicroak Example

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Swords Dance ~ Meditate ~ Poison Jab

At the time of Poison Jab, Toxicroak will have +3 Attack. At the start of the next round, Toxicroak will still have +3 Attack because Meditate locked the Attack stat stage for that round. If Meditate or Swords Dance are not used in the next round, then at the end of that round Toxicroak will have +2 Attack.

(R1) Swords Dance ~ Meditate ~ Poison Jab
(R2) Swords Dance ~ Cross Chop ~ Meditate
(R3) Pursuit ~ Pursuit ~ Pursuit

At the time of Poison Jab, Toxicroak will have +3 Attack. At the start of R2, Toxicroak will still have +3 Attack. At the time of Cross Chop, Toxicroak will have +5 Attack. At the end of R2, Toxicroak will have +6 Attack. This is because the Meditate used during R2 both boosts the +5 to +6 and locks that stat stage for that round. For the entirety of R3, Toxicroak has +6 Attack, but since Meditate is not used, at the end of R3, Toxicroak has +5 Attack.

I want discussion focussed on:

• Do stat boosts provide too much or too little of a boost?
• Is decay needed?
• Does anything change for Speed, Evasion and Accuracy?

Keep it civil folks!

[zarator]

• Do stat boosts provide too much or too little of a boost?

Too little, and it is pretty apparent from battling experience. The large majority of battlers use stat boosting moves only if it's a speed boosting move, or as part of a substitution (ex: if he uses Protect, Swords Dance instead). If these moves (I'm especially thinking about Atk/Def/SpA/SpD, so please forget about Spe/Acc/Eva for now) had any real competitive value, they wouldn't see use only as mere "sub fodder"

• Is decay needed?

Probably not. First of all, consider that this is an issue only in Singles. In Doubles or Triples the match is too fast-paced for decay to become a real issue. Now, about Singles, the issue to me seems roughly the same of Toxic stalling - if you actually manage to stall the opponent so long that Toxic damage (or stat boosts, in our case) actually make a difference, then you deserve to reap the benefits, not to be nerfed by a cap. Remember that your average Pokemon can hit nearly everything for at least 15 damage per action, so the chances of decay to kick in (after 2-3 rounds) are pretty slim as they are. I COULD see a case if we significantly buffed stat ups for some reason, but for now I'd say we can get rid of the decay system without too much remorse - it always looked like a byzantine system to me, one that we would be way better off without.

• Does anything change for Speed, Evasion and Accuracy?

I believe Speed boosts were discussed in a different place, and Evasion/Accuracy ones seem fine as they are honestly.






Now, two quick things to close the post


1) You mispelt "focussed"^^
2) You should add, to the current questions, the following one: Should stage differences be applied before, or after the weakness/resistance multiplier?

[TheWolfe]

• Do stat boosts provide too much or too little of a boost?

Far too little, and the biggest reason is that the stat modifiers are applied after weaknesses and resistance, as opposed to other boosts, like items, abilities, etc. Thanks to ASB granting a Pokemon their entire movepool, the trainer would be most apt for using their most super-effective move upon their foe. A stage boost that only results in just an additional ~2 points of damage is barely going to make an impact, even if you spam three attacks in a round. If you're not spamming attacks, then you run the risk of losing your boosts due to decay, which leads into the second reason.

• Is decay needed?

I'd say no. While there could be a theoretical issue down the line where a +6 Attack, +6 Special Attack, and +6 Speed Pokemon could sweep an entire team like in the cartridge games, the fact you're completely vulnerable to setting up makes this a moot point, especially since recovery moves are less powerful than in the cartridge games and repeated blows, especially super-effective ones, could leave a booster incredibly weak unless you really catch your opponent off guard. Plus, many Pokemon have access to stat-clearing moves, such as Roar, Dragon Tail, Haze, Clear Smog, etc. especially with the enhanced movepool capacity all Pokemon in ASB have.

• Does anything change for Speed, Evasion and Accuracy?

Nope. They are fine as is. ^^

[Objection]

I agree with what zarator and TheWolfe say about the first two questions. Stat boosts do provide too little benefit and it is (at least partly) because they apply after weakness/resistance. The only other things that apply after weakness/resistance are Multiscale (which, given how it affects the overall damage, putting it before or after isn't gonna make a huge difference) and the type-boosting items like Silk Scarf (which provide a greater boost than Swords Dance while not taking up an action to give the boost). Simply putting them before the weakness/resistance modifier would at least go a long way towards making stat boosters viable.

As for decay, I am mostly in agreement with zarator and TheWolfe. The decay system is an unnecessary nerf to most stat boosts and stat drops when there are already plenty of ways (some of which are incredibly common) to stop people from getting to obscene levels of stat boost/drop.

However, there are a couple of situations in which I think some sort of "decay" should remain:

The first is the moves Leaf Storm, Draco Meteor and Overheat (and maybe Hammer Arm and any other damaging move that lowers your own stats, but I'm more concerned about the first three). Most pokemon that get these moves can't boost their special attack to mitigate the drop from these moves. And of course, this isn't even considering the likes of Serperior, who can get to +6 special attack far more easily than (almost) all other special attack boosters by virtue of using a method that works while taunted and still continues to damage the opponent.

The second of these is any move that lowers accuracy or raises evasion. If the outcry about old Illuminate and old Forewarn is anything to go by, ASB as a whole hates accuracy reductions and evasion boosts. It's not surprising either considering it effectively limits the victim's options to either pray to the RNG or use moves that always hit (which is perfectly fine if your name is Machamp or Golurk, but otherwise ...)

As a result, I would like to suggest that we remove decay, but the stat boosts and drops for the moves I talked about above only last for 6 actions and each boost/drop is treated separately for the purposes of this decay. Furthermore, other moves that alter the relevant stats do not affect the stat boosts/drops from these moves - once the 6 actions have passed, these moves' effect is removed and the rest of the stat adjustments are used.

As for speed, the progression at the moment is kinda dumb and makes speed-boosting moves like Agility superior to other methods of boosting speed like Swift Swim and Tailwind. Similarly, it makes speed-dropping moves almost as good as the speed-reducing effect of the paralysis status. I would like to see a bit more equality among the speed-adjusting effects.

As for evasion and accuracy, I've made my point above about their duration and have no comment on the values that they adjust by, except that they ought to be posted in the DAT.

As an aside, we should probably put a cap of 20 or so on Stored Power just so any decayless system doesn't make Swoobat OP.

[ZhengTann]

• Do stat boosts provide too much or too little of a boost?

Read zarator and Wolfe. I really don't think people need to read the same thing in 3 different posts.

• Is decay needed?

I have to say yes, though. Remember that decay applies to drops as well as boosts, so the current decay system isn't all cons and no pros. Also, read Obj's 3rd to 5th paragraph (mind, I'm only on the same page as Obj on those 3 paragraphs only - I am not Bubs)

• Does anything change for Speed, Evasion and Accuracy?

I would have really liked to propose a change to the current in-catridge system just for the sake of customized ASB. But nah, probably not the best of ideas to fix something when I have little idea which part of it is broken.



Proposal: Maybe we can bump stat boosters from 1.75 outside of typing effectiveness to 3 outside of typing effectiveness? The reason behind the stat boosters usage is that they give too little effective damage output per action - if we can bump stat boosters up to the level that it deals just as much overall damage as you would using an SE attack instead, then maybe it'll be viable enough for long matches (shorter ones will still, unfortunately, favour damage races over set-ups).

[Engineer Pikachu]

It's pretty obvious that the moves that boost true stats (Atk / Def / SpA / SpD) are way underpowered. However, I'd like to note that something commonplace like Swords Dance really shines in Doubles and especially Triples, where you can rack up to 10.5 extra DMG per attack; this is my main reason for disagreeing with Zt's proposal above, considering that with that Tail Glow, for example, could potentially grant 27 extra DMG per action, or 18 DMG in Doubles. On the other hand, Speed-altering attacks have far-reaching impacts, and accuracy and evasion boosts are pretty good as they stand right now in my opinion.

Personally I still want decay. In addition to reasons already listed here, Objection's point brings up excellent examples in which having no decay is definitely not good. Attacks that lower your own attacking stats are often used in competitive play because you can take out one Pokemon in one hit and you can easily switch out to eliminate the stat drop; neither of those points are really true in ASB. I can elaborate more on this later but I'm sleepy. I don't like Objection's suggestion, though, since if we're so bent on enforcing consistency it does everything but that.

I'm also going to link to the post I already linked above (here) to reinforce my proposal for new Speed modifiers. It's the exact same one as the one in-game, and is less counter-intuitive; as a plus, -6 Speed is equivalent to a nice 25% (same as paralysis!) instead of the really strange ~9.5238% we have now.

[Geodude6]

Why is it that stat boosts are applied after type effectiveness? That doesn't seem right. However, the way it works in-game seems to work TOO well. Raising a stat by 50% per stage is WAY overpowered. 1620 +6 Atk Salamence? No thank you. But a Salamence at +6 Atk only gets a measly 10.5 extra damage per attack. That doesn't seem right either.

My proposal is this: Stat boosts raise/lower the attack rank by 1 for each stage of boosts. A Salamence at +6 Atk, therefore, would have rank 11 Atk with a neutral nature. That does seem like a lot, but that IS +6, which would require many Dragon Dances and some Moxie boosts. I think that decay is a good idea mainly so we don't break Swoobat.

[Pwnemon]

honestly the only thing i want to see is the boosts/drops changed to ±2

everything else about our stat boosts system is fine and singles players can suck it 8===D

[Objection]

Originally Posted by Fat Geodude6

Why is it that stat boosts are applied after type effectiveness? That doesn't seem right. However, the way it works in-game seems to work TOO well. Raising a stat by 50% per stage is WAY overpowered. 1620 +6 Atk Salamence? No thank you. But a Salamence at +6 Atk only gets a measly 10.5 extra damage per attack. That doesn't seem right either.

My proposal is this: Stat boosts raise/lower the attack rank by 1 for each stage of boosts. A Salamence at +6 Atk, therefore, would have rank 11 Atk with a neutral nature. That does seem like a lot, but that IS +6, which would require many Dragon Dances and some Moxie boosts. I think that decay is a good idea mainly so we don't break Swoobat.

Actually, increasing by 1 rank per stage is not a lot at all. In fact, it's a lower boost for neutral moves than the current system and, for boosts beyond rank 5, a lower boost for super effective moves than the current system.

Also, contrary to what Pwnemon says, there are more problems with the stat boost system than the number. The fact that the boost is applied after type effectiveness means super effective moves (which, unless your name is Haxorus, you will be trying to use if possible) get shortchanged, meaning that increasing the damage boost to 2 after weakness/resistance is not going to make stat boosting moves any good. (Also, that "singles players can suck it" thing had better be a joke because any form of "suck it up" is never and will never be a valid argument for anything except what a vacuum cleaner should do.)

Because of all this, at the very least, we need to have the boost calculated before weakness/resistance and the damage boost per stage has to be at least 1.75. It can be higher than 1.75 (2 seems like a good number), but not lower. As for decay, while I think that the decay system is nothing but a relic of an outmoded belief and that any problems caused by removing decay should be easy to solve, I would not be entirely opposed to a different decay system that is both simpler and causes stat boosts to last as long as they do now or a little bit longer.

[ZhengTann]

Well, I can't really agree with Engi about boosting moves being overpowered in multi-battles - we all know very well that such matches have incredibly volatile momentum that often the best way to maintain yours is to win the short-term damage race outright. Spending an action merely to nerf/boost stats are not that viable as a strategy unless we can ensure that the effective damage output can match the situation in which we attack outright instead. Take a look at the following example:

• I am a R5 Attacker versus a R3 Defender.
• I can use an 8 BAP SE no-STAB move to deal 16.5 damage per action.
• Or I can spend that turn to SD, though I have to make sure that my SD can grant an extra 16.5 damage (or more) by the time it expires.
• The 16.5 damage need not be achieved in a single round - it can be accumulated throughout the decay duration.
• Of course, I can spend 3 actions to get up to +6, but I usually am half-dead-with-decayed-boosts by then.

So that's why I'm advocating scaling up the stat boosts/nerfs numbers - to make boosting moves more viable. On the other hand, though, this will likely cause Leaf Storm-esque moves to drop in usage (outlined in Engi's post about comparison between ingame and ASB up there).

Another point I'm trying to defend is that true stat boosts remain outside typing effectiveness, because it can allow mons with limited movepools (okay, okay, read: I love Haxorus) to outpace their opponents with better SE moves. If we were to change this, then its all back to "oh let's see whose SE move is more powerful" move-creeping, which isn't the most fun thing in battling at all (read: curse CAPmons and their friggin' bloated movepools).

But yeah, concerning the decay system - it is counted in actions rather than rounds because we wanted to encourage creative, tactical plays rather than "oh I'll SD A1 then rampage A2 and A3". Admittedly, this isn't the most user-friendly system, but aside from changing it to decay-by-round instead of the original decay-by-action, I'm blinded. Maybe we can prolong the decay duration instead, but I guess it's no different from boosting the boosts/drops number in the first place.

[zarator]

I don't intend to derail the thread. But some of the reasons people brought up against decay are almost ridiculous. This post is going to be quite long, since I will have to deconstruct them one by one.

1) Swoobat will be broken!

This is perhaps the most pathetic one. The sheer idea that Swoobat can break the meta with Stored Power without decay is silly, for a variety of reasons. Aside from the fact that Swoobat's coverage is incredibly shallow (Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Signal Beam, and Hidden Power is basically all he has besides his STAB moves), the array of Pokemon that can counter this strategy is immense. Since people doesn't seem to buy this, I'm gonna give you an extensive run through the dex to show you what I mean

Note: For the record, Swoobat's only moves to hamper the opposition somewhat are Imprison (which is only useful for Taunt), Magic Coat, Taunt, and Thunder Wave.

Long Counter List, FE mons listed in alphabetical order

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Names in black have little issues, or Swoobat has no reason to use Stored Power against them. Names in yellow can incur in trouble, should Swoobat use the right move against them. Names in red are in serious danger. Names in blue can't beat Swoobat regardless of Stored Power.
Abomasnow: It hits Swoobat supereffectively, and will kill him if he attempts to stack up boosts. Even Swoobat would be better off using his STAB Flying-type attacks.
Absol: Dark-type.
Accelgor: It can Encore Swoobat into stat boosting, and U-turn out of any Taunt attempts. Yawn is also an available strategy.
Aerodactyl: Easily outdamages Swoobat with Rock STAB. It has Roar, Whirlwind, and Taunt as well if you need.
Aggron: It resists Psychic, and can demolish Swoobat very fast.
Alakazam: Disable, Encore, Psych Up, Taunt... Just to mention some.
Alomomola: Psych Up and Magic Coat are all he has. Not much of a chance.
Altaria: Haze, Roar, Psych Up, and Perish Song are all valid answers, but it can incur in trouble should Swoobat manage to Taunt him.
Ambipom: Taunt and Snatch can prevent Swoobat from racking up stat boosts, while U-turn allows Ambipom to get rid of Taunt himself. Moreover, he can hit Swoobat really hard.
Amoonguss: Wouldn't stand a chance, with or without Stored Power.
Ampharos: It hits too hard for Swoobat, preventing him from boosting itself.
Arbok: It has Snatch, Disable, and Dragon Tail, but he's fucked up by the Psychic weakness anyway.
Arcanine: All it has is Roar. If Swoobat locks him with Taunt, he's in trouble.
Archeops: Taunt, Roar, Dragon Tail, and a Rock STAB means Swoobat stands no chance.
Ariados: It has Disable, but heh. It's Ariados, what would you expect?
Armaldo: Can outdamage Swoobat easily
Audino: Encore, Skill Swap, Magic Coat all work, but it has trouble dealing significant damage in return.
Azumarill: Encore and Perish Song, plus Fake Tears can slow down Swoobat's boosting strategy. Also, Azumarill hits damn hard.
Banette: Snatch, Disable, Psych Up, Taunt... it can even Imprison Calm Mind and Magic Coat any Taunt attempts. Not to mention the supereffective STAB attacks.
Basculin: Hits hard but he's frail. Swoobat shouldn't lose time setting up.
Bastiodon: It resists Psychic, it can hit SE, and has both Taunt and Magic Coat to mess Swoobat up. In a pinch, he can Metal Burst.
Bearctic: Encore, Taunt, Roar, and supereffective STAB attacks.
Beautifly: Swoobat can easily own him with his Flying STAB. However, it has Whirlwind to counter stat boost attempts.
Beedrill: Same as above.
Beheeyem: Power Swap, Snatch, and Magic Coat to stop Taunt. Imprison, too. I don't see why Swoobat would attempt Stored Power against Beheeyem.
Bellossom: Flying weak, and even has Gastro Acid... Swoobat should just use Flying-type attacks here.
Bibarel: Simple match!... for Swoobat, with Stored Power.
Bisharp: Dark-type
Blastoise: Mirror Coat, Haze, Roar, Dragon Tail... and SE Ice-type attacks.
Blaziken: Fighting-type, not much else to say. It still has Roar, though.
Blissey: Snatch, Skill Swap, Psych Up... and a godly Special Defense. But if Taunted, it may have trouble even with Ice Beam and Thunderbolt to boast.
Bouffalant: It hits too hard.
Braviary: Sheer Force Sky Attack alone does roughly 23 damage, without counting items and natures. Sheer Force Rock Slide does around 20 damage or so in same conditions. Swoobat shouldn't attempt this.
Breloom: No comment.
Bronzong: Swoobat shouldn't attempt Stored Power here.
Butterfree: Pretty much in the same boat with Beautifly and most other Bugs.
Cacturne: Dark-type
Camerupt: Roar and Yawn are viable strategies, but it has trouble preventing Swoobat from Taunting him. It still has a chance at outdamage him, though.
Carnivine: Swoobat would be better off attacking with his Flying STAB here.
Carracosta: Can't prevent Stored Power, but it can easily outdamage Swoobat.
Castform: Can hit back very hard, and Psych Up to boost up alongside. Not to mention Disable. Hard to set up on.
Chandelure: Haze, Taunt, Imprison. If Swoobat attempts to Taunt him early, Shadow Ball does around 25 damage unboosted, before items/nature.
Charizard: Roar and Dragon Tail, Swoobat can Taunt or Substitute, but it can't do both at same time. Also Charizard isn't a lightweight when it comes to offense.
Chatot: Taunt, Encore, U-turn... and strong physical offense. Not worth setting up against.
Cherrim: Flying-weak, completely helpless in Singles.
Chimecho: Skill Swap, Disable, Hypnosis, Snatch, Magic Coat, and can use Stored Power on its own. I'd call it an even match.
Cinccino: Encore, Fake Tears, and a strong offense means Swoobat is in trouble here.
Claydol: Stone Edge hits Swoobat on the side he can't patch up, and Claydol still resists Psychic.
Clefable: Encore, Magic Coat, Psych Up, Skill Swap. It learns Stored Power as well. It can hit hard with a variety of attacks.
Cloyster: It hits just too hard to be set up on by Swoobat.
Cofagrigus: Snatch, Disable, Imprison, Haze, Power Split, and it can prevent Taunt with Magic Coat. Also, Ghost STAB.
Conkeldurr: Not much to say here.
Corsola: Mirror Coat, plus Rock-type attacks. But she's double Grass weak, why using Stored Power when you can just Energy Ball?
Cradily: Mirror Coat, Gastro Acid for Simple. Or it can just attack.
Crawdaunt: Dark-type
Crobat: Haze, Taunt, Hypnosis, and it's faster. Swoobat would be better off attacking outright.
Crustle: Trying to set up in face of a supereffective STAB Rock Wrecker sounds a bit suicidal.
Cryogonal: Haze, Magic Coat to stop Taunt, and Ice STAB give a lot of problems.
Darmanitan: Encore, Taunt, Roar, and a kickass offense. Yawn, if you're into it.
Delcatty: It may have Fake Tears, but that's it. No way to stop Taunt, not enough damage to outpace Stored Power.
Delibird: Boost as much as you like, this bird just doesn't give a fuck^^
Dewgong: Encore, Disable, and supereffective STAB attacks (yes, physical ones as well, thanks to Icicle Spear and Avalanche).
Ditto: No comment here.
Dodrio: Haze, Taunt. It may have trouble stopping foe's Taunt, but it hits hard.
Donphan: It hits hard. And his weight, as well as the Grass weakness, means that Swoobat has better strategies here than Stored Power.
Dragonite: Haze, Roar, Dragon Tail. Strong offense. Swoobat shouldn't attempt this. Even Multiscale kinda ruins the strategy, one on one.
Drapion: Dark-type
Drifblim: Haze, Magic Coat, Skill Swap, Psych Up, and supereffective STAB. Not to mention Hypnosis. Also it can outspeed once Unburden kicks in.
Druddigon: Snatch, Taunt, Dragon Tail, and strong offense.
Dugtrio: Too weak to put up a challenge.
Dunsparce: RNG match for the most part. Unpredictable.
Durant: Not much of a point using Stored Power against him.
Dusknoir: Disable, Imprison, Skill Swap, Snatch. And it hits really hard with his Ghost STAB.
Dustox: Really, what did you expect here?
Eelektross: Good luck setting up on this.
Electivire: Same as above
Electrode: Same as above, but it has Mirror Coat as well to laugh at you. Not to mention it can outspeed and Taunt you.
Emboar: It hits very hard with Head Smash, is very fat, and is Psychic weak. Why would you attempt to use Stored Power?
Emolga: Not only Encore and Taunt give Swoobat serious problems, but he also has to be wary of Emolga's STAB Electric attacks.
Empoleon: It may resist Psychic, but it doesn't hit strong enough.
Escavalier: It does resist Psychic, and it hits like a truck.
Espeon: Laughs at Taunt attempts, resists Psychic, can use Skill Swap, Psych Up, Calm Mind, even Stored Power.
...

I won't keep going to not bother you excessively (as if you would read it all anyway...) but you get the point. The amount of mons that actually give a fuck about Stored Power is exceptionally small. There's no point in discussing this, and I don't know why people keep bringing this up.

2) It defeats strategy

Some people argued that decay promotes strategic use of stat up moves. But in the end, it just makes them more viable to be used on a2 or a3 than a1. This doesn't really scream strategy to me. I don't even understand why this would be an argument.

3) What about Draco Meteor and similar moves?

This is perhaps the only legitimate argument I've seen so far. But I think it is kind of misleading. People argued that, without decay, these moves would be too weak. I personally believe the contrary. To put it in other words, I believe these moves are too good at the moment, and eliminating decay would balance them nicely (although at that point reducing the energy cost from 10 to 9 or even 8 would make sense). At the moment, most Pokemon with somewhat decent mixed offenses can fire these moves off with impunity, switching to physical offense for the few actions necessary to fire off another big hit. Even Haxorus, with its measly 1 SpA rank (assuming Adamant), can wreak havoc with an unsuspecting foe with Draco Meteor (assuming Dragon Fang and 3 SpD, the foe is still taking a healthy 18 damage). In the ends of Pokemon like Arcanine, Dragonite, Salamence, Exeggutor, etc, these moves are incredibly good, and come with little to no opportunity cost. Besides, even without decay, many of these mons could just U-turn out or (in Switch = OK battles) simply switch out.

4) Serperior would be broken!

Few people mentioned this. Which is odd, since it is perhaps the strongest argument out of the ones I summed up here. However, I believe that even in this case, people are overestimating things. Even without decay, Serperior would still be balanced. His coverage blows, and most Pokemon that resist Grass-type can beat Serperior one on one. Any Pokemon with Skill Swap and/or Entrainment can screw over Serperior. A lot of Water-types learn Mirror Coat to punish Serperior. I will elaborate on this later (I really ran out of time now), and if necessary I'll make a list like the one above for Swoobat, but the point in short is: only a handful Pokemon can beat Serperior with the Decay system but lose without the Decay system, because the difference in damage output with and without decay is really minimal unless the battle lasts for 5 or more rounds.

[Engineer Pikachu]

Hopping in really quickly to make some remarks.

Originally Posted by Fat ZhengTann

Well, I can't really agree with Engi about boosting moves being overpowered in multi-battles - we all know very well that such matches have incredibly volatile momentum that often the best way to maintain yours is to win the short-term damage race outright. Spending an action merely to nerf/boost stats are not that viable as a strategy unless we can ensure that the effective damage output can match the situation in which we attack outright instead.

Except I demonstrated that, with the proposal for each boost to be +3 DMG, it's astonishingly worth it to stat up; with a common +2 boost from Swords Dance that would be an extra 12 DMG per attack, and I think 24 DMG is pretty respectable and is probably more than what you would get in one action.

Another point I'm trying to defend is that true stat boosts remain outside typing effectiveness, because it can allow mons with limited movepools (okay, okay, read: I love Haxorus) to outpace their opponents with better SE moves. If we were to change this, then its all back to "oh let's see whose SE move is more powerful" move-creeping, which isn't the most fun thing in battling at all (read: curse CAPmons and their friggin' bloated movepools).

I support this entirely.

Originally Posted by Fat zarator

1) Swoobat will be broken!

This is perhaps the most pathetic one. The sheer idea that Swoobat can break the meta with Stored Power without decay is silly, for a variety of reasons. Aside from the fact that Swoobat's coverage is incredibly shallow (Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Signal Beam, and Hidden Power is basically all he has besides his STAB moves), the array of Pokemon that can counter this strategy is immense. Since people doesn't seem to buy this, I'm gonna give you an extensive run through the dex to show you what I mean

Note: For the record, Swoobat's only moves to hamper the opposition somewhat are Imprison (which is only useful for Taunt), Magic Coat, Taunt, and Thunder Wave.

<list>

This is a pretty bad argument.

Consider that, in most cases, Swoobat will have a neutral matchup in terms of SpA vs SpD - Swoobat is 3 SpA naturally, but most times it will run Timid. That means that if Stored Power has at least 9 BAP Swoobat is dealing at least as much damage with it as a 2x SE 8 BAP attack, and if Stored Power has at least 15 BAP than it does the same with a 4x SE attack. After one Calm Mind Swoobat's Stored Power has 10 BAP, and after two it has 18 BAP. Given this most of your points of "Swoobat should be using XXX move, not Stored Power" don't really hold any weight.

Moreover, just pointing out moves that have the potential to disrupt Swoobat in no way makes the Pokemon a counter. What some of your comments say are analogically equivalent to saying "Gengar has Counter therefore it can't lose to any physical attacker."

2) It defeats strategy

Some people argued that decay promotes strategic use of stat up moves. But in the end, it just makes them more viable to be used on a2 or a3 than a1. This doesn't really scream strategy to me. I don't even understand why this would be an argument.

I might argue the inverse; removing decay removes strategy. It doesn't take long to realize why that is.

4) Serperior would be broken!

Few people mentioned this. Which is odd, since it is perhaps the strongest argument out of the ones I summed up here. However, I believe that even in this case, people are overestimating things. Even without decay, Serperior would still be balanced. His coverage blows, and most Pokemon that resist Grass-type can beat Serperior one on one. Any Pokemon with Skill Swap and/or Entrainment can screw over Serperior. (1) A lot of Water-types learn Mirror Coat to punish Serperior (2). I will elaborate on this later (I really ran out of time now), and if necessary I'll make a list like the one above for Swoobat, but the point in short is: only a handful Pokemon can beat Serperior with the Decay system but lose without the Decay system, because the difference in damage output with and without decay is really minimal unless the battle lasts for 5 or more rounds.

What you're really assuming in (1) is that the only thing Serperior can do is Leaf Storm continually and get absurdly high damage output through stage boosts. While it's true that it's certainly the thing that Serperior does best you're completely overlooking the fact that Serperior is able to do other things as well (stall, for one) and so arguing that "Skill Swap renders Serperior useless and so no decay isn't broken" isn't really true; without decay even a single +2 boost that Serperior gets can certainly be enough, especially if Serperior goes the stalling route as then the boosts will have more time to add up.

[Gerard]

Swoobat also has Heat Wave, Giga Drain and Signal Beam for coverage, the first one a good spread move while the second a better energy ball that helps it recover health.

Also, by the same token Engi Swoobat is already in a bad match up against most pokes due to it's pathetic 2/2 defenses, which means every turn you boost yourself in order to get to that awesome damage outputs you're taking damage, very probably SE one, before he can even unleash all those Stored Powers (a regular match with a rank 4 mon with an 8 BP physical SE attack does 16.5 per attack, so you erase one third of it's health by the time he is at +4/+4) while still trying t keep thm. Also, consider that most mons also have some stat lowering moves so there's too.

And Swoobat sucks in doubles+, not even +6 Heat Waves help the fact that he'll probably be long death before he can even try and use them

[zarator]

Engineer, I think you kind of misunderstood my point about Swoobat and Serperior. What I'm arguing is that the instances where the presence or absence of decay could actually matter are really limited for both Pokemon.

In Swoobat's case, I've argued that not only decay kicks in too late to actually matter, but that in most cases Swoobat either would lose or would win regardless of this "buff", and often he has better strategies to follow than Stored Power.

In Serperior's case, the matter is admittenly less clear cut than in Swoobat's case, but think about it for a moment. Let's suppose a battle lasts for, say, 5 rounds (which is a lot even for singles, if it involves an offensive mon like Serperior). Assume Serperior starts Leaf Storming from round 1. This means that decay would start applying from the end of round 2 (assuming I made my calcs correctly). Under the current system, this would mean that:

1) If the battle lasts 3 rounds, decay reduces Serperior's damage output by 1.75-5.25 (depending on how many special attacks are used)
2) If the battle lasts 4 rounds, decay reduces Serperior's damage output by 3.5-10.5 (depending, again, on how many special attacks are used)

As you can see, only from the 5th round the gap starts becoming significant (remember that, most times, you won't get to keep using special attacks relentlessly. You will have to Taunt, Protect, all sorts of stuff).

tl;dr: I endeavor you to provide me an account of enough mons that Serperior currently can't beat that, instead, can be defeated without the Decay mechanic. Unless I'm mistaken, that number will be ridiculously low. Exactly like I showed in Swoobat's case.

[ZhengTann]

Okay, so I'm going back to the questions in OP to revise my standings...

• How good are stat boosting moves?

They suck. Pretty much everyone can agree that 1.75 per rank boost is too small a boost to matter, especially when you factor decay and being outside of typing effectiveness.

• Is decay needed?

I'm torn in this one. Zarator (and Wolfe, once I reread his post) made some compelling arguments against decay within the current system. But if we were to change the additional damage provided by stat boosters to fix Question 1, then it might be a different matter entirely.

Let's say under the current system, a single SD with all out attacks every remaining action would mean a maximum of 12.25 effective extra damage (SD at A2, then spend the 3rd action and next 2 rounds spamming attack). As we can see, this is not a viable strategy when you can usually more than that amount of damage already with a decent non-STAB SE direct attack. But if we scale the boost up to 2 per rank instead of 1.75, the same situation would yield a maximum of 22 effective extra damage. That seems viable as a tactic, IF AND ONLY IF the decay system is still in place.

Of course, as zarator said, we might not spam attacks after we boosted ourselves. But if 1.75 per rank boost does not merit viability in the first place, no one would use it. So I can see either we scale up the boost, or simply remove decay, but not both together.

• What about Speed, Evasion and Accuracy?

This is where I think I should argue for the decay system. Currently it allows for tactical advantages when it comes to speed tiers and accuracy hax in battles. You might be able to dodge that Will-O-Wisp with a Mud Slap, or outspeed Breezi with Riolu, but you can't do it forever with just a single set-up action. When it comes to the 4 true stats, I can understand the arguments against decay, but in this case, I have to ask: do we really want a Mud Slap to be the equivalent of a Minimize? Not to mention that you can actually afford to spam the former?

If we were to scale up the stat boosts in response to Question 1, then for consistency's sake we'll have to revise the Speed issue, I think. But for now, I'd rather keep the decay system as it is - Serperior and Swoobat are good examples of true stats, yes, but we have to consider the 3 stats outlined in this question as well. I'm of the opinion that decay really matters in this one.

• Should stage differences be applied before, or after typing effectiveness?

If we're talking about the usual rank differences (not stat boosting/nerfing involve), then I see no compelling argument against it as it stands, yet. My only gripe was with the issue of "What happens after I SD or NP". I still love Haxorus, and I hope my point about mons with limited movepools but adequate stat boosting moves versus mons with bloated movepools is reasonably justified. That's why I'm still arguing for the current formula of keeping rank differences within typing effectiveness and stage boosts/nerfs outside of it.



Revised Proposal from my post #5:

- Upscale stat boosting moves so that a stage boost/drop would equal to +2/-2 instead of the current +1.75/-1.75 respectively to make them viable as a tactical move.

- Maintain decay as it is, since any changes to the decay system wouldn't move it towards betterment, and removing it altogether seems to be contrary with the accuracy hax issue we're griping with.

- Speed drops would become 2x Speed in +1, 3x Speed in +2, and so on, and so forth, just for the sake of consistency (which is a terrible reason, I know, feel free to refine it).

- Make no changes to Accuracy/Evasion, since these 2 stats are doing okay (tactically viable without being overpowered).

[Its_A_Random]

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

honestly the only thing i want to see is the boosts/drops changed to ±2

everything else about our stat boosts system is fine and singles players can suck it 8===D

Ehhh, pretty much this, alongside a simplified decay system so people actually know what is going on—which I will post at a later date—And maybe moving the stage difference before the SE multiplier, but I am not sold on that atm.

Originally Posted by Fat zarator

1) Swoobat will be broken!

This is perhaps the most pathetic one. The sheer idea that Swoobat can break the meta with Stored Power without decay is silly, for a variety of reasons. Aside from the fact that Swoobat's coverage is incredibly shallow (Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Signal Beam, and Hidden Power is basically all he has besides his STAB moves), the array of Pokemon that can counter this strategy is immense. Since people doesn't seem to buy this, I'm gonna give you an extensive run through the dex to show you what I mean

Note: For the record, Swoobat's only moves to hamper the opposition somewhat are Imprison (which is only useful for Taunt), Magic Coat, Taunt, and Thunder Wave.

<list>

A couple of things, first:

• If you are not using Swoobat to abuse Calm Mind/Stored Power, then you are better off using something else like Sigilyph or Xatu, because 1) Calm Mind + Stored Power + Simple is its niche, & 2) Outside of its niche, it is a run-of-the-mill Psychic/Flying type that is generally outclassed.
• What you listed (And not even that is fully correct) is what you think would happen on paper, & not in practice. You seem to imply that anything with Taunt/Roar/whatever is a counter, & anything that does not have it is not a counter, yet in reality, you may have the tools, but it does not translate to auto-victory.

You are seriously underestimating Swoobat's power, which is like a truck once it gets going (i.e. Hits hard & is hard to stop). Compared to spamming Psychic or other coverage moves, more often than not, Swoobat can make up the lost actions in just 1-3 Stored Powers at +6 SpA/SpD, & even if you manage to KO the opponent, you get the added advantage of being able to deal lots of damage to whatever switches in before potentially going down—something it cannot do with other strategies—And overall, makes those actions you spent setting up, well worth the time. I am aware that you are a sitting duck when setting the whole thing up, but you also need to realise that substitutions exist, turn orders exist, not everyone has something that can stop the set-up, Swoobat has lots of options that help facilitate its set-up, & finally, it does not always have to Calm Mind 3 times before attacking. Sometimes, setting up 2 times can suffice, & allow you to still make up lost actions within a couple of Stored Powers.

As far as what you are actually arguing about, Swoobat may not necessarily be broken without decay, but it will be a damn good buff in the event that it does last longer than 2 rounds, which Swoobat certainly has the tools to last long enough to reach, since it means it can fire off 18/26 BAP Stored Powers for a far longer time & continue to terrorise the opposition with the damage it deals, & every HP Point counts in ASB, so... Not to mention, it means that Special Attackers will continue to have a rough time against Swoobat for longer, since let us put it this way: Having 7/10.5 damage shaved off your special moves for an extended period of time is going to hurt, & especially given Swoobat can also Roost off damage, set up screens, among other gimmicks, no decay can also allow something as offensively inclined as Swoobat to function as a decent, if not, effective Special Wall.

tl;dr, Swoobat may not be broken w/o decay, but after 2 rounds, which it can last longer than, it can do far more, & furthermore, not waste extra actions stat boosting. If you are not using CM/SP with Swoobat, then you are better off with something else.

I am out of time for now, & do not have anything else to say atm, but I will post my proposals & shit later. Remember to keep it civil, though.

[zarator]

I never denied that Swoobat, outside of Calm Mind + Stored Power, is mostly outclassed, so I don't understand why you're calling me out on this. It doesn't even matter in our context, since what we're arguing about is whether CM/SP Swoobat is broken without decay - not about how much he sucks without CM/SP.

As for the second point you make, I never claimed that "anything with Taunt/Roar/whatever is a counter". Heck, if you read through my list you'll see that the Pokemon who can only rely on the likes of Taunt, Roar, or Haze (like Altaria) have been marked as yellow. What my list wanted to show (and what you, Engineer, and everyone else here fails to address) is that, even without decay, Stored Power is an unviable strategy against over half the metagame. Any Pokemon with Rank 4 or Rank 5 Attack and strong STAB moves can demolish Swoobat before it goes out of hand (ex: Braviary, Bouffalant, Cinccino). This also include basically anything with a supereffective physical move.

Now, you claim that special attackers are boned. This is a vast overestimation of Swoobat's prowess. The Psychic/Flying bat is weak to a large amount of special attacks. Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball... just to mention some. And the majority of special attackers have also some means to disrupt Swoobat's own strategy. From Haze, to Disable, to Magic Coat to bounce back Taunt attempts, plus Encore, Calm Mind, Dragon Tail, etc etc. And if Swoobat spends an action to try something like Taunt, the opponent can just punish him with a direct attack.

You say that "what you think would happen on paper, & not in practice". This works both ways. A lot of you simply seem to think that the opponent can do nothing while Swoobat sets up. As I showed, however, the majority of Pokemon Swoobat beats with this strategy would lose against him, to begin with. And as I argued endlessly at this point, it is very rare that the absence of decay will matter, even in singles, since few match-ups last over 3-4 rounds. Even a special attacker like Blissey can manage to deal over 10 damage per round to Swoobat, resorting to lol STAB Return/Frustration. 90% of the time Swoobat won't last that long, and saying "it does not always have to Calm Mind 3 times before attacking. Sometimes, setting up 2 times can suffice, & allow you to still make up lost actions within a couple of Stored Powers" doesn't change the fact that, in the large majority of cases, the absence of decay won't affect the outcome of the match.

tl;dr: Even a fully setup Swoobat takes at least 10-15 damage per action from even the most inept of physical sweepers (including lol Blissey). There's no way a Swoobat can survive long enough to make decay actually matter. What the heck are we talking about?

[Deck Knight]

It would probably be wise for me to explain my logic about stat boosts and why the numbers are what they are. Some of this will seem logical but impractical, and other parts illogical but practical.

Priority 1: Balance!

The thing about stat boosters is that they are game-defining in the cartridge games. Set-up sweepers are extremely powerful, and any Pokemon that gets a stat-up move is automatically more viable than a Pokemon that does not get any, or gets irrelevant ones (e.g. Swords Dance on Sunflora which has neither the speed nor physical versatility to use it). As such this meant in the transfer over to ASB - a system partly designed to increase parity between very strong and very weak mons in comparison to the cartridge games - if stat boosters were too strong then this goal would be more difficult.

On the other hand, stat boosters couldn't be useless. They initially started at 1.5 ending damage per stage, but this didn't really fit any iconic in-game situations and was a major let-down. The only stat that really benefited from this was Speed. Eventually I decided to buff it to 1.75, and I made that decision based on some in-catridge speed calculations. Max Spe +1 Tyranitar outspeeds Starmie. Well, there aren't EVs in ASB so I had to approximate, and a +1 +Spe Tyranitar hits 124 Spe, which is faster than a Starmie that doesn't have its own boosting nature. Imperfect, but again this is the problem with an EV-less system (and god no, I'm not gonna even attempt implementing something like that).

As far as stat boosts vs. abilities, that was another balance thing, since most of the Swift Swim, Sand Rush, and Clorophyll pokes would be way overpowered if they were equivalent to +2 Spe. Making them a literal double was a compromise that made the abilities useful, but let other mons outspeed them via a stat boost.

Strategy and Decay:

Decay was a mechanic I devised to further balance stat boosters, particularly negative ones. This is why decay also works on stat drops so as not to make those too powerful as well. Since ASB has sort of an opposite orientation to switching, stat drops can outlast their user since defense boosters are rarer than stat drops in general. You can last ditch Screech in a switch = KO and, sans decay, but your opponent at a massive disadvantage.

Decay also allowed strategic placement of stat boosters as a skill that could be utilized in battle - action timed elements add depth to the game and simulate a real-life battle, where you'd perform moves in a certain order or a certain time to get the effect you wanted.

Finally I should mention why they're additive and after W/R. This was again to differentiate them from in-game, and also to prevent the escalation problem Zhengtann mentioned - just making stronger Pokemon more powerful by making them impossible to outpace if they already have the advantage. This makes stat-boosts better if you're using weaker or even NVE moves that have a more desirable effect.

Now I have been thinking about boosting the effect to the "true stats" since we already have items/abilities etc. that do that, I just don't want to go too far in the other direction. I was thinking a boost of 2.5 or 3 per stage. Just remember that Belly Drum, Tail Glow, and Shell Smash exist, so whatever extremity they're at gets exacerbated, and remember these boosts are per action, not per round.

[ZhengTann]

Well, in crime cases, they say that motive is the most defining element of all. So now that Deck's motives and reasons behind true-stat stage differences are made clear, I think we really should ponder the following question:

Originally Posted by Fat motives of this thread

Should we implement changes to the stat boosters (and stage differences in general) while still sticking to Deck's reasoning, or should we overhaul the whole system by starting with the whole concept behind stat boosters?

I honestly think that such a question must be answered before we move further, because otherwise we'd only argue amongst each other to the bitter end, or be forced to come up with a compromise that went in a direction neither side would've wanted altogether. For myself, my stance is clear - my proposal went along the lines of Deck's reasoning very well, for I share many of the same thoughts with him on this matter (even though I daresay the two of us never discussed about this issue together). Maybe we can debate on whether such a concept needs to be reviewed give current ASB trends before we start proposing changes to the current system, in order to make sure that any newer proposals would follow well the philosophy behind stat boosters.

[SubwayJ]

While I have no clue whether to modify the stat boosts, place them before or after typing modifier, or to have decay. If we ARE to boost stat boosters significantly enough that Swoobat becomes a problem, we could just add the following clause to Simple, "Stat boosting moves used by this pokemon cost X more energy." With X being a value determined that sufficiently nerfs stat boosting for Swoobat.

[Its_A_Random]

Originally Posted by Fat SubwayJ

While I have no clue whether to modify the stat boosts, place them before or after typing modifier, or to have decay. If we ARE to boost stat boosters significantly enough that Swoobat becomes a problem, we could just add the following clause to Simple, "Stat boosting moves used by this pokemon cost X more energy." With X being a value determined that sufficiently nerfs stat boosting for Swoobat.

Just cap Stored Power's BAP at a value like 20. Problem solved.

Though the issue with Swoobat in an ASB without decay is not the 1v1 match-ups where it must set up though, rather, what happens in the rounds after Swoobat wins a match-up, assuming the opponent has to send a replacement in. Its reliance on arguably the most-user dependant attacks in ASB means it is far more affected by decay than most others; one round of decay from Calm Mind means a whopping 5.75 final damage is shaved off its Stored Power against neutral targets; a far cry from the flat 1.75 shaved off from something like Serperior's attacks. Also, if you are saying Swoobat cannot wall Special Attacks, give it +6 Sp. Defence, let it set up screens, & at that point, most Special Attacks will not crack 20 DMG to it, something of which Swoobat can just use Roost or something & still get a net gain in HP. Physical Attackers are still going to deal loads of damage to Swoobat regardless—even with Reflect—but in the event you can get a lot of mileage from it, that is when the no decay really matters. Then there is the many moves it has that can help facilitate its set-up...

Generally, Swoobat without decay can generally be allowed to be more conservative than they are now, since that 26 BAP Stored Power is not going to go away over time, assuming you can make Swoobat last for some time, which it has the tools to do against Special Attackers. I am not trying to say that Swoobat will be broken is a decayless ASB, but what I am trying to say is that Swoobat will be more powerful in a decayless ASB, especially when used conservatively.

That is not why I am here though. I am here to proposed a simplified decay system that is easier to understand than the current system, etc.

Current Stat Changing System

---

Originally Posted by Fat Current Stat Changing System

Stat Changing Moves:

Stat boosters/drops will work exactly as they do in-game, boosting as many stages as is stated in the attack. +2 and +3 Stat boosts always last for at least two actions after use, and +1/+1 boosts always last for four actions from +0, so strategic placement of stat boosters is a skill you can utilize in battle. During the third action of a round (after the damage is calculated and applied to the opponent), whatever boost/drop a Pokemon has will be moved towards a zero stage boost, and any boosts/drops they would get from their 3rd action are moved forward to apply to the next round. Single stage boosters/drops will be balanced by locking the boost rate in for the round, e.g. if you Howl once, you will not lose the +1 boost at the end of the round, it will carry over to the next round.

The actual impact on damage is as follows:

Each stage (+1/+2 etc.) adds/subtracts 1.75 damage from the final calculated damage. This is applied before any final rounding of the numbers. Below is a reference for how much damage to add/subtract for each stage.

Stage  Boost     Speed (100 Base)    Accuracy / Evasion (100% Base Accuracy)
+6     +10.50    1050                300% / 033%
+5     +08.75    0875                267% / 038%
+4     +07.00    0700                233% / 043%
+3     +05.25    0525                200% / 050%
+2     +03.50    0350                167% / 060%
+1     +01.75    0175                133% / 075%
+0     +00.00    0100                100% / 100%
-1     -01.75    0057                075% / 133%
-2     -03.50    0028                060% / 167%
-3     -05.25    0019                050% / 200%
-4     -07.00    0014                043% / 233%
-5     -08.75    0011                038% / 267%
-6     -10.50    0009                033% / 300%

Calculating Speed Boosters:

For Speed, each of these acts as a multiplier on Base Speed for positive values, and a divisor on negative values (no boosts uses the regular Base Speed). Ex: A Pokemon with 100 Spe at +1 has 175 Spe, and the same Pokemon at -1 has 57 Spe. Always Truncate the Speed. This makes Speed Boosters and droppers about equivalent to how they act on actual speeds in the cartridge, even though the values are increased.

General Rules:

• Boosts only ever reset +1 or -1 toward 0 at the end of a round.
• +1 Stat Boosts/Drops received from non-damaging moves (Meditate, Leer, etc.) have that stat maintained at the end of the round in which they were used. To continue to lock the stat for future rounds, the moves must be used again in those rounds, otherwise they will begin to decrement as normal. Otherwise, these are treated the same as the +1/+1 Stat Boosts/Drops as noted below. Moves treated this way have the phrase "This move locks its changed stat for the round within which it was used." in their Data Audit thread description.
• +2 and +3 Stat Boosts/Drops (Swords Dance, Tail Glow, etc.) and +2 or +3 Boosting/Dropping components of other moves (Shift Gear's Speed boost, etc.) changed from 0 last for at least 2 actions after the usage action before being prone to resetting toward 0.
• +1/+1 Stat Boosts/Drops (Calm Mind, Quiver Dance, Bulk Up, etc.) and +1 Stat Boosts/Drops with Damage (Charge, Close Combat, Low Sweep, etc.) changed from 0 last for at least 4 actions after the usage action before being prone to resetting toward 0.
• The action counts above do not include the action taken to activate the boosting or dropping move itself.

Examples:

<Examples go here, because fuck broken hide tags>

Originally Posted by Fat IAR's Proposed Stat Changing System

Stat Changing Moves:

Stat boosters/drops will work exactly as they do in-game, boosting as many stages as is stated in the attack. At the end of each round, all stats will begin to reset towards 0, but only under special circumstances, can a stat change be locked in at the end of that round. These circumstances are as follows:

• A move that raises/lowers a single stat by 1 stage will always lock the stat change in for the round.
• A move that raises/lowers more than one stat by 1 stage only locks the stat change in for the round if the last use of that move in that round was not on the first action.
• A move that raises/lowers at least one stat by 2 or more stages only locks the stat change in for the round if the last use of that move in that round was on the last action of a round.

The actual impact on damage is as follows:

<Same as before unless changed>

Calculating Speed Boosters:

<Same as before unless changed>

General Rules:

• Boosts only ever reset +1 or -1 toward 0 at the end of a round.
• Boosts will always reset towards 0 at the end of a round, unless a boosting/lowering move was used, depending on when the final instance of said move was used. This is as follows:
  • A move that raises/lowers a single stat by 1 stage will always lock the stat change in for the round.
  • A move that raises/lowers more than one stat by 1 stage only locks the stat change in for the round if the last use of that move in that round was not on the first action.
  • A move that raises/lowers at least one stat by 2 or more stages only locks the stat change in for the round if the last use of that move in that round was on the last action of a round.

Examples:

<Examples go here>

Basically the main aim of this proposal is this:

• Simplify decay to the point where one can easily determine when to apply decay or not - Basically, counting actions is annoying, I know a few users who cannot understand the current decay system, so this system is designed to reduce the complexity of the decay so you can say "Oh, a stat booster was not used that round, I need to apply decay".

Obviously it needs work, decay is more evident, & it could be argued that it makes stat boosters worse, but yeah. It is still a WIP & needs some feedback if anyone wants to give any.

[Leethoof]

I think to achieve the proper form of stat boosting, we need a bit of shift in our mindsets.

Firstly, it is of my opinion that we need stop worrying about Serperior/Swoobat, and focus on the GOAL. Sure, being mons that are highly dependent on stat boosts, they will likely be most affected by whatever changes we make, for better or worse. Yeah, they are both perfectly strong and useful mons that will most likely be buffed as we blanket buff/fix stat boosts. However, this is not a problem! There are 649 Pokemon (well, not all of them are catchable but whatever), those lines only form 5 of them! They should not be holding back what is best for the rest, regardless of whether it makes them strong. Will people go out and buy the two of them because they are stronger? Without a doubt, however ASB will keep chugging along, even if two mons were buffed. Did we say "IDK guys we should probably change Iron Fist to 1 BAP, Conk and Lurk are pretty strong"? Not a perfect metaphor, obviously, but the point is that we should not focus on individual lines. Yes, we have done similar things in the past, nerfing Perish Song, sleep, and other various moves/rules because Gengar and Kitsunoh had us in a chokehold, but I feel we have transcended our premature kneejerk reactions (the council was supposed to help with this, even -.-). ASB is a slow-moving giant; it will take time for us to get used to it, but get used to it we must. The priority is balance, but balance for the game as a whole, not balance for Serperior + Swoobat. It's an absurd tangent that needs to be crushed into its little sine and cosine parts, which must then be subsequently ground, burned, buried, and fed to the Raving Bugblatter Beast of Trall.

Next, we need to think less of the actual damage numbers in game, and more of thesituations in which they are used. I don't play competitive anymore, so bear with my horrendous example, but here it goes: You're down a couple mons, but you have your kickass Lucario who came in on a resisted-move, ready to Swords Dance and MURDER SOME MONS. But is that enemy Terrakion waiting in the wings scarfed or banded? Is that Bronzong you're facing packing Earthquake, eager to bait your Luc into an early sweep? This move is an ADRENALINE-RUSH, HIGH-RISK, HIGH-REWARD, I'M-READY-TO-BLOW-SOME-AUDINOS-UP kind of move. It is the all-or-nothing, and this isn't even considering REAL MAN stuff like Anger Point, Belly Drum, and Shell Smash. You are risking the momentary lull of inaction for some serious damage. You could be taunted, you could be snatched, you could be phazed, you could actually be hazed (lol nobody uses that), you could even be KOed...it's a scary world out there for set-up mons. But they still pull through, because of that IM HAXORUS UNTIL I SWITCH OUT feeling.

Now, translate to ASB. We pride ourselves on our clever tricks, obsessive damage-calcing, and long-term strategies. How could such a MAN move properly be rendered? The answer: it couldn't in our baby steps as we were still learning how the game functioned without seriously breaking Swoobat and Serperior upsetting our precious balance. So, Deck sneakily re-purposed them to make up for deficiencies in coverage, so that Pokemon could stand a chance during negative matchups by setting-up and striking the opponent with strong, boosted STAB attacks. The problem with this solution, although indeed very clever, is that such match-ups don't exist, barring monsters like Slaking or Haxorus (who rely on their high attack stat and high BAP moves, rather than set-up, anyways). Pokemon will either have coverage to hit their opponents with or something more important do, like barrel rolling from the unfavorable matchup or supporting teammates. So, stat-ups never get used, because they fill an unnecessary niche. The problem: What niche should they fill? What should stat-ups do in ASB? For epic mega-damage with high-risk, we already have combos! In essence, combos stunted stat booster's growth, but combos are cooler so that's a good thing.

Now, after three paragraphs of somewhat unnecessary rambling, we arrive at my proposal. It attempts to fill a different kind of epic-damage niche from combos in terms of you pay the “cooldown” and get the damage later, rather than deal the damage now and pay the cooldown later. I’d like to preface this by showing all my examples are dealing with attack-boosters because verbs are confusing, but it works in reverse with defense boosters and attack/defense lowererers.

First, I’ll tell how much damage they affect, and my reasoning behind it. I balanced it around doing about 1.75x of an average SE coverage move (that was complete guessing, I did no calcs whatsoever). I think an investment of this is a good idea: jumping the gun and going for a stat booster sacrifices that one action, but can very well pay it back – if you play well and the opponent doesn’t stall, evade, or restrict your moves with screens/torment/disable/etc. Remember – even if you catch them off guard this round, your opponent will likely be on the defensive next round, intelligently stalling out the decay (yes, my proposal supports decay, but more on that later), or perhaps even countering it with a stat booster of their own. It could potentially create a back-and-forth dynamic on top of the countering we have with ordering first/second, adding another layer of strategy as both players manage their now very valuable boosts (but not too strong, mons without boosts are still perfectly acceptable, though you’d have try really hard to find a mon without boosts lol).
So, my proposal:
Each stage of a +1/-1 Boost is +-2.5 BAP (before SE modifier). “DAAAAAMAGE CREEP” you all might cry in dismay, but fear not, because I kind of already explained it there. But fear not, because the real game-changer comes later.
Also decay is going to be really simple in my new one. Like Light Screen, Torment, etc, boosts will last for a flat six actions, before returning right back to 0. If another boost is used during the six actions from a last one, they will stack of course, but the new boost runs on its own decay counter. It’s a bit more work to keep track of, but overall it is simpler and less convoluted.
And here is the biggest portion of my proposal, making stat-boosting moves risky (not like Aurumoth, this is REAL risky business) by giving +-2 boosters, Tail Glow, and Cotton Guard a straight -1 Priority and perhaps a slight EN cost increase, to compensate for the massive boost they provide now. Belly Drum and Shell Smash already have their drawbacks. Such strong attacks need something to keep them in check.

That was radical and not very well thought out, but even if you don’t like my specific proposal, please take into account everything I said about stat boosters that wasn’t related to numbers, because I’m really bad at ASB numbers (I prefer letters in my math 8). I truly do believe stat-boosters can be an excellent way to bounce the momentum back and forth between players even more, which is good imo. Critiques/Comments/Hatemail pls.

[zarator]

I'm on the fence about Leethoof's proposal, but his first three paragraphs are perfect, and everyone here should read them before posting.

[ZhengTann]

Agreeing with zarator about Leethoof's first 4 paragraphs (the first still counts even if its a one-liner) being solid. However, I will not deny that I am an obsessive ASB number-cruncher, so I would hold opposition against his proposal because we held different, yet logical stances.

Originally Posted by Fat Leethoof's stance

I think an investment of this is a good idea: jumping the gun and going for a stat booster sacrifices that one action, but can very well pay it back – if you play well and the opponent doesn’t stall, evade, or restrict your moves with screens/torment/disable/etc. Remember – even if you catch them off guard this round, your opponent will likely be on the defensive next round, intelligently stalling out the decay (yes, my proposal supports decay, but more on that later), or perhaps even countering it with a stat booster of their own. It could potentially create a back-and-forth dynamic on top of the countering we have with ordering first/second, adding another layer of strategy as both players manage their now very valuable boosts.

Yes, of course - as with the likes of Taunt/Screens, a stat boosting move can and will create the dynamics that adds more tactics to a battle than damage races. Yet if you ask any veteran in ASB, the most viable strategy is none other than:

Originally Posted by Fat No-brainer

DING DING DING!!
SE damage races.

Which only stacks another layer upon what we're already familiar with. Why not allow even NVE moves to gain viability through stat boosters? Why nerf NVE moves even more when we can potentially use them after a good investment?

• Most ASB FEs have large enough movepools for SE coverage: Yes. But can you not agree that those who don't hold as much merit as those who do?
• We should think of the whole ASB, not just the small portion of mons that can benefit/break due to it: An analogy could be drawn - do you give tax rebates to the poorer people who need it (I'll not go into the lazy-to-work-get-rebate-instead leeches), or to the millionaires who probably wouldn't notice their tax deduction from their income? Yes, we should think of balance to the whole ASB, which means we arm those less able to fend for themselves in the current system, not just everyone. If we choose the former, ASB might get to see more diversity. If we go for the later, we'd have done little to nothing about the current game trend.

Now, to calc Leet's stuff in a vacuum. +-2.5 per stage boost is pretty viable, especially before typing, which means you could usually scale up 3.75 extra damage per action in a standard SE move. Add that to a flat 6-action decay, and you got yourself the equivalent of an actions worth of damage with a +1 setup, possibly more. But if we move to +2 stages... they are very powerful. Note the difference between "viable" and "powerful" here. With a +2, a mon could scale up about 2 actions worth of extra damage with a 1-action setup move. Even with -1 priority, support strategy (Substitute, Torment, etc.) I have doubts that it would not compound our problem. Sure, no solution can solve our problem absolutely - balance is, after all, forever dynamic - but implementing such changes without a destination in mind leads to pointless wandering, not a calculated step in the right direction.

[Its_A_Random]

Leet, I kinda agree with your first three paragraphs, but ignoring the minority can be potentially dangerous. Yes worst case scenario, Swoobat & Serperior can be come top tier, but when you look at Traits, where Klinklang, Conkeldurr, Bronzong, Golurk, & a couple of others forced an overhaul in the definition of a Trait... Yeah. But the overall idea is balance in ASB as a whole, yes.

Anyhow, your proposal...

Originally Posted by Fat Leethoof

So, my proposal:
Each stage of a +1/-1 Boost is +-2.5 BAP (before SE modifier). “DAAAAAMAGE CREEP” you all might cry in dismay, but fear not, because I kind of already explained it there. But fear not, because the real game-changer comes later.

Ehh, this is fine... If Volbeat did not have Tail Glow to compliment Prankster & Power Lens (An instant, hard to stop, +15 DMG to neutral targets can be pretty "omg wtf is this shit" at times)... I have concerns about having the stage difference before the SE multiplier, but I can live either way. Also, what about Speed Boosts?

Originally Posted by Fat Leethoof

Also decay is going to be really simple in my new one. Like Light Screen, Torment, etc, boosts will last for a flat six actions, before returning right back to 0. If another boost is used during the six actions from a last one, they will stack of course, but the new boost runs on its own decay counter. It’s a bit more work to keep track of, but overall it is simpler and less convoluted.

I like the idea of having decay, but there are a few issues with this part, imo:

• As with no decay, there is virtually no reason to use a move that raises or lowers one stat by one stage, as opposed to a move that raises or lowers one stat by two or more stages. Perhaps a slight buff to those moves might help? I know you cover this later on, but yeah.
• Too many things to keep track of: This is why I do not like the idea of counting by actions — You get confused as to when to apply decay with all these numbers to keep track of. Also, it tends to make decay become more significant than before in damage. Maybe make the whole thing reset towards 0 after 6 actions? idk, but that makes it more convoluted than the current method, lol.

This is why I like my method of decay. I think it feels far simpler, it gives weaker boosting/lowering moves a little more of an edge, as in, you do not have to use it on a certain action to avoid decay, but yeah. It still makes decay more significant, but at least you can more easily make up for the lost action(s) boosting.

Originally Posted by Fat Leethoof

And here is the biggest portion of my proposal, making stat-boosting moves risky (not like Aurumoth, this is REAL risky business) by giving +-2 boosters, Tail Glow, and Cotton Guard a straight -1 Priority and perhaps a slight EN cost increase, to compensate for the massive boost they provide now. Belly Drum and Shell Smash already have their drawbacks. Such strong attacks need something to keep them in check.

Too risky, tbh. The EC increase is fine if you want to discourage those bigger boosts (Even though Cotton Guard & Tail Glow cost like 11 EN already), but reducing the priority is not that great an idea. I mean, sure we have precedence from Perish Song, but Perish Song was pretty dumb anyway. I mean, it is (possibly) not as if we are going to break the damn things, (Though +5 Damage per Swords Dance/Nasty Plot/etc on Neutral Targets is pretty powerful in itself), but making them more vulnerable to Taunt & friends is not the best of ideas, especially when trying to encourage stat boosters.

All in all, it certainly encourages boosters, but perhaps a little bit too much. Some attempt has been made to balance out the boost, but ehh... idk. Perhaps nerf the boost & change decay or something? idk, but it is somewhat a start, imo. After all that, I probably have no idea of what I am going on about either... >_<