Keldeo (Expert Belt) [2/3 QC]

[Cherub Agent]

yes it does, because it achieves the same KOs as HP ice and frees up a slot for another hidden power

[Pokemasta77]

Just thought of another idea. Anyone ever think of a Physical Keldeo? It does learn Swords Dance and has a massive Physical movepool. Base 72 is somewhat usable.

[Lord of Bays]

I once thought about it, because SD Aqua Jet is actually pretty cool, but base 72 Attack is just not acceptable.

[Pokemasta77]

With just one Swords Dance, it reaches around 544 Atk. I believe if completely maxed out which is more than enough.

[AccidentalGreed]

This is not the time or place to discuss Swords Dance Keldeo. Discussion is reserved for the set in the OP and that's that.

[Pokemasta77]

What is the op? Anyway isnt this a thread to discuss Expert Belt Keldeo sets?

[Shurtugal]

No, only the EB Keldeo on post one, original post (OP)

[Jukain]

Having just discussed with the QC team, there seemed to be a consensus (Pocket + shrang + others) that Life Orb needs to be represented in this analysis.

Life Orb gives you more overall power than Expert Belt; Expert Belt is honestly pretty weak. Yes, you can bluff a Choice item, but your attacks really don't pack as much of a punch. I've used both variants extensively, and there is no reason Life Orb shouldn't be slashed. The power really is that helpful.

An interesting Hidden Power I used was Flying; it lets you win against opposing Keldeo, Celebi, Toxicroak, and Amoonguss, and always OHKOes Breloom. It deserves an AC mention for sure.

The only thing to be determined is the placement of Life Orb's slash, but there seems to be a split opinion on that, so just do this for now.

[alexwolf]

LO can be mentioned in any of the Specs, CM, or Expert Belt sets. Either in the Set Comments or in the AC. I personally believe that it fits better to the nature of the Specs set, which aims to be a wallbreaker. The EB values a lot the surprise factor, while the CM set has some sweeping potential, and it would be a shame to put those to waste by using 4 attacks + LO.

tl;dr slash LO with Specs and add a sentence in the AC about LO.

[Pocket]

Nah, alexwolf, LO is more appropriate slashed with EB than with Specs. The latter is just at an entirely different level when it comes to nuke power, and plays differently from non-choiced Keldeo variants. Plus, iirc QC staff agreed that "surprise value," should never be the only reason to publish a set on-site.

With that said, though, does LO clinch any significant KOs that EB misses out on? If yes, slash it with EB. If no, make it an AC mention.

Regardless, rename this set to "All-Out Attacker."

[alexwolf]

Yeah i see your point, and this is the issue that shrang kept mentioning before. It is a reasonable concern so ok. Let's see some calcs and if they are good enough with LO, then slash LO with EB. If not put it in AC. Basically what Pocket said.

[Jukain]

Sure, here's some calcs.

Let's start with Icy Wind:

vs. 0/0 Garchomp

• Expert Belt: 92.71 - 110.36%
• Life Orb: 100.56 - 119.32%

vs. Offensive Pivot Landorus-T

• Expert Belt: 94.85 - 111.92%
• Life Orb: 102.98 - 121.13%

Secret Sword:

vs. Offensive Heatran

• Expert Belt: 98.14 - 115.78%
• Life Orb: 106.19 - 125.69%

It's the same deal for SubTran, btw.

Hydro Pump (outside rain):

vs. standard Gengar

• Expert Belt: 94.63 - 111.87%
• Life Orb: 122.98 - 145.59%

vs. Specially Defensive Heatran

• Expert Belt: 84.15 - 99.74%
• Life Orb: 91.16 - 108.05%

vs. Offensive SD Scizor

• Expert Belt: 83.27 - 98.22%
• Life Orb: 108.18 - 127.75%

vs. Physically Defensive Skarmory

• Expert Belt: 78.44 - 92.51%
• Life Orb: 102.09 - 120.35%

vs. Standard Forretress

• Expert Belt: 74.01 - 87.28%
• Life Orb: 96.32 - 113.55%

vs. Standard Lucario

• Expert Belt: 92.9 - 109.57%
• Life Orb: 120.92 - 142.55%

Hydro Pump (in rain):

vs. OTR Reuniclus

• Expert Belt: 82.15 - 96.82%
• Life Orb: 106.84 - 125.91%

vs. Choice Scarf Jirachi

• Expert Belt: 85.33 - 100.58%
• Life Orb: 110.85 - 130.79%

vs. Specially Defensive Skarmory

• Expert Belt: 81.13 - 95.5%
• Life Orb: 105.38 - 124.25%

vs. Swords Dance Breloom

• Expert Belt: 84.35 - 99.61%
• Life Orb: 109.54 - 129.38%

vs. Offensive Deoxys-D

• Expert Belt: 80.91 - 95.02%
• Life Orb: 104.97 - 123.65%

vs. Bulky Swords Dance Scizor

• Expert Belt: 80.23 - 94.47%
• Life Orb: 104.36 - 122.67%

I could get more on stuff that becomes a 2HKO but this stuff should suffice.

[Pocket]

Thanks, p0078; many of those are convincing calcs. I support slashing LO with EB

[Dice]

yah just slash secondary slash lo and mention how it can't lure shit but it gets important kos

[Shurtugal]

Pls take calcs that are both w/ or w/o LO ohko'ed AFTER Rocks

[Jukain]

I'm going to make a case for Life Orb to get slashed first on this set.

[14:05] <jc104> I absolutely refuse to have LO slashed AFTER ebelt
[14:05] <jc104> because that puts what is the second best keldeo set and slashes it behind the worst

If Life Orb isn't going to be folded into offensive CM (which it probably should, they play very similar), then it should absolutely have the first slash on this set. The amount of power it brings to the table is enormous, a glimpse of which is shown by the calcs in my other post. With Life Orb, Keldeo can do way more damage to the opposing team. Sure, Expert Belt can bluff, but it has zero power compared to Life Orb. For the Pokemon it hits super effectively, sure, it hits them pretty hard, but every neutral hit is pitifully weak compared to one backed by Life Orb. Bluffing a Choice item does not the bring the same results as pure power, plain and simple. If Life Orb must be put on this set, it should be slashed first.

I have used both variants extensively and have been faced with numerous situations where running Expert Belt on Keldeo lost me the game where Life Orb would have won it.

Hidden Power Flying also needs to be included in AC. As I said in a previous post that included the topic, it allows Keldeo to always win mirror matches against opposing Keldeo and hits Celebi, Toxicroak, and Amoonguss, as well as always OHKOing Breloom.

Cheers.

[Shurtugal]

LO an EB are such different sets. I don't see why I should mention it when they both have different jobs. I'll mention it when I get time since it seems the community disagrees with me.

I meant above that numerous amount of those calcs are KO'd with EB Keldeo anyway after a small 6% damage from SR like Piviot Landorus-T for example (seriously not going to mention that LO gets the KO when after SR, EB also KOs. Ridiculous!)

[jc104]

A 30% difference on keldeo's most powerful move is enormous. I can't see why you think you need to see calcs to confirm that. Unless Keldeo just OHKOes everything, there will always be a time when a boost that large makes all the difference (it's probably about 30% of the time lol!).

I entirely agree that LO and EBelt play quite differently and I don't want them slashed together. However, if they are going to be slashed together, I want the better one slashed first.

[Shurtugal]

What? I'll slash LO after EB but not before. EB and LO don't hit the same things so you can't say LO or EB is better than the other. I will recognize LO's utility and slash it AFTER EB.

I will accept the calcs, I was just pointing out that 1/2 of those are bs because of the fact that SR also nabs those KOs but I do see where LO would be beneficial.

When I used LO I was disappointed. Sure it was a lot more powerful, but I wasn't luring any counters and LO + hazards easily wears it down to nothing. It couldn't RD like the EB set could and it simply lost to things that the CM set does, plain and simple. Put LO on the CM set imo, if its going on this set it will not be the first slash.

[Jukain]

If that is going to be the case, then it's probably better to just fold Life Orb into offensive CM.

I'll do that should it become the case.

[PK Gaming]

Using LO goes entirely against the point of this set (to bluff choice), but I don't see why you can't emphasize that in AC. LO should get a slash on the main set, with an AC accompanying AC mention that explains why you would use it in the first place.

[Swamp-Rocket]

I was looking through this a bit, and I noticed you provide a bit too many examples compared to most other analyses. Some of them are really shaky imo and aren't too necessary.

Most of its usual counters in Celebi, Tentacruel, Latias, Latios,

Hm? Sure, you can hit him with Icy Wind, but what else? If it has Specs, Latios easily OHKOs Keldeo with Psyshock, Thunderbolt, or a Draco Meteor. If it has a Scarf, it 2HKOs with all these moves, and Icy Wind doesn't help because you can't OHKO it with anything unless you predict the switch, use Icy Wind, and then follow it up with another Icy Wind, a feat that could be accoplished with Specs just as easily. You need to use Hidden Power Bug to secure the 2HKO, which can be an issue.

A calc to prove that this is nowhere close to the KO you need

252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Latios: 44.52% - 52.49% (2-3 hits to KO)

Against Latias you are doing pathetic damage. Assuming its offensive, its still avoiding the 2HKO thanks to that Special Defense and it ends up similar to specs Latios - dead.

252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Latias: 31.59% - 37.36% (4 hits to KO)

Toxicroak, Jellicent, and Amoonguss can easily be flattened with the aid of its new Expert Belt.

You can't hit Toxicroak for more than 40% damage with your best move against it, Hidden Power Electric (if it has absolutely no investment in defenses). Toxicroak in return 2HKOs you with a Life Orb Drain Punch and recovers enough HP (especially in the Rain) to make it as if Keldeo wasn't even there in the first place.

Keldeo is destroyed by Amoonguss. It can't do anything to it and Keldeo gets 2HKOed with Giga Drain (which means Amoongus just heals itself)

252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs 252 HP/228 SpDef Amoonguss (+SpDef) : 28.24% - 33.8% (4-5 hits to KO)
28 SpAtk Amoonguss Giga Drain vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Keldeo: 50.15% - 59.44% (2 hits to KO)

It should be noted that Expert Belt Keldeo can also lure in Pokemon trying to resist one of its STABs or coverage moves (very common if they predict the choice set) such as Dragon Dance Dragonite, Dragon Dance Gyarados, Rock Polish Landorus-I, Rock Polish Landorus-T, Dragon Dance Landorus-I,

This is mostly a personal thing, but why is the specific set invluded? It really seems like ANY Dragonite could expect the Choice set, whether it be the Choice Band, the Dragon Dancer, the Hurricane spammer, etc., and same with Gyarados. Including two (three?) Landorouses seem incredibly redundant - if it counters one, it should likely counter the other one easily

Landorous also doesn't learn Dragon Dance.

opposing Keldeo, Terrakion

A Pokemon that is weak to both STABs would never even think about switching in, even if it has a coverage move incoming. In my experience, 90% of the time a Keldeo is going to use Hydro Pump, Surf, or Secret Sword, and if it relies on a coverage move to take out the foe, it usually doesn't go in the battle and do it. Terrakion isn't really needed imo.

LO Lati@s, Nasty Plot Celebi, Growth Venusaur, Swords Dance Scizor, Forretress, Hippowdon, and Politoed.

Forretress isn't a counter - it hits far too weak and can't do anything back to Keldeo. It also takes a considerable amount of damage from both STABs, and all it can really do is set up hazards... which isn't very much. And, as mentioned, Keldeo with a Choice set will usually be using a STAB move, so Forretress probably won't switch in.

Venusaur gets hit hard... that is true, but Keldeo has no buisness even attempting to take it on. A Life Orb Giga Drain OHKOs just too often - around 30% of the time with a Timid Nature and all but 6.25% of the time with a Modest Nature (Modest Venusaur is more threatened by Scarf Keldeo because its faster.

Politoed seems sort of like an afterthought if anything, but I personally wouldn't switch in Politoed considering it powers up Hydro Pumps, which in turn could do incredible damage if backed up by a boosting item like Specs (which the opponent may believe that you have). Secret Sword isn't exactly kindly either, and Politoed can't do much back to it.

Finally, this is pretty minor, but try not to abbreviate Lati@s in analyses. Also, as aforementioned, the chances of taking a hit from LO Latios is slim, and Latias will usually come out on tip,

In AC, I don't see how Breloom deals with Thundurus-T at all, or why taking out Feraligatr is necesary (its rare and can't do anything back to it that is threatening). Breloom can only do 40% with Mach Punch at best to Thundy-T while it gets OHKOed easily by Hidden Power Ice. Also, []s are not needed around the Hidden Power types, so remove those.

You don't need to implement all this but this is just for thought I guess

[Shurtugal]

1. SR guarantees 2HKO on Latios
2. HP Psychic and Flying, though they are in AC so should I not mention those? I'm new so I apologize ;~;
3. I meant RP Landorus-I, I'll fix that. I just mentioned Pokemon that normally set up on choice locked Keldeo, those are what came to mind.
4. Those aren't counters. RD Keldeo beats Venu (Giga from Timid foes 83% to Keldeo, meaning 100% keldeo can set up RD ftw lol). It lures all of those in and can beat them. Again, RD is AC so same as #2

[Jukain]

I'm not on the QC team, but you should hold up on Life Orb for now. I've talked with numerous QC members and we're not so sure what to do with it (what set to put it under, and the implications doing so would have).

also:

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

HP Psychic and Flying, though they are in AC so should I not mention those? I'm new so I apologize ;~;

You haven't mention HP Flying at all yet. Oh, and yes, you can mention them basically to say that Keldeo doesn't need support to remove whatever Pokemon are in question if it has whatever move hits it that is in AC.

[PK Gaming]

Moving to L&O since Shurtagul quit