BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Lavos Spawn]

besides i don't really think damage calcs on chansey of all things are relevant in the current metagame. we need to be looking at the actual nature of the bw2 metagame in order to properly analyze what's good and what isn't. right now ou is centered around an offensive mindset, with pokemon such as scizor, keldeo, latios, terrakion, and garchomp heading up last month's usage stats. look at those five pokemon. four of them outspeed and ohko hydreigon flat-out, and the other one still does a hefty chunk with choice band bullet punch. i realize these five pokemon aren't entirely indicative of the metagame, but you get my point. right now, hydreigon's too slow and is weak to far too many common attacking types to be effective. base 98 speed frankly doesn't cut it in today's metagame. more than half of the pokemon currently in the top 20 of the usage stats outspeed and ohko hydreigon, or tank a hit and ohko back. that's pretty bad considering what hydreigon's trying to accomplish. fact is, the thing can't fulfill its supposed role as an effective sweeper or wallbreaker because it's too slow and too frail to keep up with the offensive nature of the bw2 ou tier.

[ssbbm]

well i mean chansey has already taken 1 sr damage or switches in on sr + spikes or there is sr + sandstorm up or residual damage in general then hydreigon should beat it if it predicts the switch. that's not that hard to accomplish seeing as the mejority of teams really can't switch in anything to hydreigon besides chansey (there is really no counter to lo hydreigon i think).

also i agree that hydreigon is slow and easily beaten by offensive teams but by god balanced / defensive teams are fucked to death by the specs set

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

well i mean chansey has already taken 1 sr damage or switches in on sr + spikes or there is sr + sandstorm up or residual damage in general then hydreigon should beat it if it predicts the switch. that's not that hard to accomplish seeing as the mejority of teams really can't switch in anything to hydreigon besides chansey (there is really no counter to lo hydreigon i think).

i don't think predicting the switch and using superpower is the hard part, it's getting up that assumed two layers of hazards plus sandstorm that's really difficult. i mean you only really see chansey on rain stall, and rain stall's absolutely centered on keeping its own weather up plus keeping opposing hazards off while laying hazards of its own, so assuming that we're magically going to have hazards down and sand up to create ideal conditions for a hydreigon sweep is kind of silly.

btw what's the generally accepted life orb hyd set? i keep hearing a lot about dragon pulse, surf, earth power, earthquake, fire blast, superpower, u-turn...what are the four most common moves

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

i don't think predicting the switch and using superpower is the hard part, it's getting up that assumed two layers of hazards plus sandstorm that's really difficult. i mean you only really see chansey on rain stall, and rain stall's absolutely centered on keeping its own weather up plus keeping opposing hazards off while laying hazards of its own, so assuming that we're magically going to have hazards down and sand up to create ideal conditions for a hydreigon sweep is kind of silly.

btw what's the generally accepted life orb hyd set? i keep hearing a lot about dragon pulse, surf, earth power, earthquake, fire blast, superpower, u-turn...what are the four most common moves

| Moves
| Draco Meteor 75.801%
| Fire Blast 64.704%
| Dark Pulse 59.052%
| Superpower 29.449%

There ya go. I have no idea why Dark Pulse is so popular... guess some people just really hate Jellicent. Personally, my preferred Hydreigon moveset is Draco Meteor / Fire Blast (or Surf on a rain team, but usually Fire Blast) / Superpower / Earthquake, which covers a lot of threats, but I haven't actually taken the time to see what it doesn't. The Smogon recommended set is all those same moves, but with Roost slashed before Earthquake.

[mcdanger]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

| Moves
| Draco Meteor 75.801%
| Fire Blast 64.704%
| Dark Pulse 59.052%
| Superpower 29.449%

There ya go. I have no idea why Dark Pulse is so popular... guess some people just really hate Jellicent. Personally, my preferred Hydreigon moveset is Draco Meteor / Fire Blast (or Surf on a rain team, but usually Fire Blast) / Superpower / Earthquake, which covers a lot of threats, but I haven't actually taken the time to see what it doesn't. The Smogon recommended set is all those same moves, but with Roost slashed before Earthquake.

Superpower, fire blast and draco meteor give it full coverage, earthquake is to hit heatran, sp def jirachi, and chople tyrannitar harder. Ya i dont get dark pulse as it just hits gengar, celebi, and former threat deoxys def harder, all which cant stomach draco meteor, or fire blast in celebis case. When i run it i prefer roost or sub in the last spot for more longevity and staying power.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Dark Pulse has some merits. First, Celebi can actually tank Fire Blasts if it's raining. However, nothing prevents Celebi from being smashed by Dark Pulse on any weather. Second, it also hits Jellicent (which with a specially defensive EV spread, has a lot of potential to avoid the 2HKO from Draco Meteor) and the rare Reuniclus. Dark Pulse also has two other merits. It hits bulky Water-types without needing to resort to Draco Meteor, so if you want to keep your Draco Meteor to something more dangerous, or to weaken the opponent until it can be smashed by Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse can do the job. Also, STAB Dark Pulse has the same power as an non-STAB Fire Blast, but Dark Pulse has perfect accuracy and more PP, and thus, Dark Pulse lessens the need to use Fire Blast in situations where you want to keep Draco Meteor for use later on battle.

[Cygnis]

Originally Posted by Fat mcdanger

Superpower, fire blast and draco meteor give it full coverage, earthquake is to hit heatran, sp def jirachi, and chople tyrannitar harder. Ya i dont get dark pulse as it just hits gengar, celebi, and former threat deoxys def harder, all which cant stomach draco meteor, or fire blast in celebis case. When i run it i prefer roost or sub in the last spot for more longevity and staying power.

For the LO, set, I just run Roost over D-Pulse. Healing off LO damage is a lot more beneficial than EQ, it even needs it more in BW2 beacause of how offensive the metagame is. Roost / U-Turn / Dark Pulse / Surf / EQ can all go in the third slot in my opinion

[Meru]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Dark Pulse has some merits. First, Celebi can actually tank Fire Blasts if it's raining. However, nothing prevents Celebi from being smashed by Dark Pulse on any weather. Second, it also hits Jellicent (which with a specially defensive EV spread, has a lot of potential to avoid the 2HKO from Draco Meteor) and the rare Reuniclus. Dark Pulse also has two other merits. It hits bulky Water-types without needing to resort to Draco Meteor, so if you want to keep your Draco Meteor to something more dangerous, or to weaken the opponent until it can be smashed by Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse can do the job. Also, STAB Dark Pulse has the same power as an non-STAB Fire Blast, but Dark Pulse has perfect accuracy and more PP, and thus, Dark Pulse lessens the need to use Fire Blast in situations where you want to keep Draco Meteor for use later on battle.

On my team, Dark Pulse also manages to annoy SpDef Hippowdon because Hydreigon can't get past him with two LO Draco Meteors, but a Dark Pulse flinch in tandem with a Draco Meteor will eliminate him.

But really, the main reason is for Jellicent and Celebitch.

[HardCore]

HardCore's Unique Heatran Set!!!

...

---

Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Magma Storm
- Substitute
- Protect / Will o Wisp/ Hidden Power Fire
- Bulldoze

So after seeing a Magma Storm Heatran with

- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earth Power/ Protect/ Roar

I was thinking about my team with a set up Rachi. It needed something to stop Volcarona in its tracks as well as a Pokémon for breaking down other bulky mons that lack recovery. So I figured why not make a Magma Storm Heatran of my own. Simply having Roar wouldn't be good enough because I'd be walled by other Heatran, so I thought Earth Power, but finally came to the never used Bulldoze! It's really fun perfect for the meta, and can even get you out of Dugtrio Traps in a pinch. It is a great bulky Pokemon that gets me one step closer to a SubCM Rachi sweep, because almost anything that can take Heatran has moves that break Rachi's subs. Spamming protect sub on those mons you can't take but want to kill works really well since they can't switch.

Don't knock this awesome set until you try it!!!

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat HardCore

HardCore's Unique Heatran Set!!!

...

---

Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Magma Storm
- Substitute
- Protect
- Bulldoze

So after seeing a Magma Storm Heatran with

- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earth Power/ Protect/ Roar

I was thinking about my team with a set up Rachi. It needed something to stop Volcarona in its tracks as well as a Pokémon for breaking down other bulky mons that lack recovery. So I figured why not make a Magma Storm Heatran of my own. Simply having Roar wouldn't be good enough because I'd be walled by other Heatran, so I thought Earth Power, but finally came to the never used Bulldoze! It's really fun perfect for the meta, and can even get you out of Dugtrio Traps in a pinch. It is a great bulky Pokemon that gets me one step closer to a SubCM Rachi sweep, because almost anything that can take Heatran has moves that break Rachi's subs. Spamming protect sub on those mons you can't take but want to kill works really well since they can't switch.

Don't knock this awesome set until you try it!!!

My only problem with this is that it doesn't pack any real way to damage anyone beyond Magma Storm. Bulldoze is really just a utility move, which means that to use this to your full potential, you have to run some kind of residual damage with it, ie. Sandstorm, hail, or Toxic Spikes. I'm not exactly certain on how you would use it, either. It sorta seems like an awkward set, imo, though my opinion would certainly change if you could get me some logs or replays. (Seriously, I'd love to take a look at this thing, I'm genuinely curious.)
That being said, props on the creativity, especially if it works like you say it does. Bulldoze if a criminally underused move on quite a few Pokemon. I personally love tossing it on Mamoswine, which makes it ridiculously hard to switch into, as well as Ferrothorn, to stop setup and Magnezone, and on Garchomp, because its Garchomp and screwing over faster pokes on the switch is hilarious.

[HardCore]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

My only problem with this is that it doesn't pack any real way to damage anyone beyond Magma Storm. Bulldoze is really just a utility move, which means that to use this to your full potential, you have to run some kind of residual damage with it, ie. Sandstorm, hail, or Toxic Spikes. I'm not exactly certain on how you would use it, either. It sorta seems like an awkward set, imo, though my opinion would certainly change if you could get me some logs or replays. (Seriously, I'd love to take a look at this thing, I'm genuinely curious.)
That being said, props on the creativity, especially if it works like you say it does. Bulldoze if a criminally underused move on quite a few Pokemon. I personally love tossing it on Mamoswine, which makes it ridiculously hard to switch into, as well as Ferrothorn, to stop setup and Magnezone, and on Garchomp, because its Garchomp and screwing over faster pokes on the switch is hilarious.

I will try to Tuesday or Wednesday when I don't have school. I can see how this sets viability needs to be heavily corroborated. Bulldoze is definitely a utility move that does a small amount of damage, but in the end pays off. I've been using this team on PO, because it's got a faster pace than PS and I was just testing stuff, but the team is ok so I will get some Showdown replays and maybe even put this on my YT.
__
3/18/13
Here you go! http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou12303134 I'm Robor (test alt). I'm currently testing will o wisp instead of protect and so far I can definitely see my team having no trouble with sun teams, which includes the amazing Volcarona. My team definitely doesn't have any hazards to abuse either, but Heatran really shined in that battle for sake of example.

[Deluks917]

The Metagame honestly seems great right now to me. I have seen Rain Offense/Stall, Sand Offense/Stall and weather-less offense all doing very well. With a decent amount of variance in the versions of each. Sun and weatherless stall (or semi-stall) do not seem to be doing very well based on the ladder.

[moonbase]

I agree with all your points up to "Sun and weatherless stall (or semi-stall) do not seem to be doing very well based on the ladder." Sun has the most powerful abusers of its weather, and the saying goes that if you win the weather war with sun, you essentially win the game (that statement can also be used against sun, because if you lose the weather war, you are utterly fucked) that is why you see some of the highest players on the ladder using sun because it has the most untapped power out of every weather. Weather less stall is completely viable as well, if you have a well built team and you are not a crap battler. That goes for every single playing style, but the reason why you probably think that those two styles of playing are not viable are because the people you see on the ladder using those things often times do not know what they are doing.

[Bent1ey]

Originally Posted by Fat Deluks917

The Metagame honestly seems great right now to me. I have seen Rain Offense/Stall, Sand Offense/Stall and weatyherless offense all doing very well. With a decent amount of variance in the versions fo each. Sun and weatherless stall (or semi-stall) do not seem to be doing very well based on the ladder.

I agree this is about as balanced as I ever expected the meta to be, Sun has been pretty untouched by external nerfs, so we can genuinely ask what kind of shift could make it more present in the meta.

[Dcae]

Personally I think offensive sun is deadly. Sunny day on Ninetales is extremely good, allowing it to troll Politoed well. It is underrated. I agree with the fact that the meta is as balanced as it can be, but I disagree regarding weatherless stall being viable. The thing is that weather is vital to be controlled, otherwise things like offensive sun or rain and really hurt. Imo it can be used, but isn't as good as other types of stall

[victinivcreate1]

nah sand offense is much more dangerous than sun/rain offense.

sand sweepers tend to have better coverage than rain/sun sweepers (terrakion's rock/fighting)

cb/scarftar is the greatest teammate. it alone can ohko sand sweepers common counters with pursuit (landorus and ttar rape all).

excadrill is faster in the sand than kingdra in the rain and venusaur in the sun.

[Unoriginal Name]

Originally Posted by Fat victinivcreate1

nah sand offense is much more dangerous than sun/rain offense.

sand sweepers tend to have better coverage than rain/sun sweepers (terrakion's rock/fighting)

cb/scarftar is the greatest teammate. it alone can ohko sand sweepers common counters with pursuit (landorus and ttar rape all).

excadrill is faster in the sand than kingdra in the rain and venusaur in the sun.

Erm, Excadrill? He's Uber... And Kingda isn't allowed with Drizzle regardless, so it's only Venu, who is the swing grace of Sun offensive, and what makes it so awesome.

Although I do agree with you on Sand being great offensively, but I prefer Sun. I dunno, just really personal preference. Rain wins stall hands-down with Jellicent and Tentacruel and whatnot, but is not as good offensively IMO. Not to say it isn't good, of course, with access to Keldeo and the like.

Venusaur and Dugtrio have great synergy, Ninetales hinders faster Physical sweepers with Will-o-Wisp and maybe Roar, and Xatu plus a spinner/hazard layer (I prefer Forre myself) if you so choose allows the sweepers to safely do what they're supposed to do. Not to say Sand isn't good: It's just much more suited to balanced.

[Dragonicwari]

Has anyone else noticed a trend of mono type teams? For whatever reason I keep getting pitted against them and 9/10 times I'm just sitting there saying: "yay, free points :D"

[Dcae]

I have as well but I think it's practicing for a tournament or just for fun. There Spe some very well built teams though so I keep my guard up when facing them, unless its an obviously bad team. Maybe its a trend though I certainly have seen many of them popping up on the ladder.

[Dragonicwari]

I actually asked a few of them and they said it wasn't for a tournament. How would everyone feel about mono type being the next big thing in ou? It is hard to pull off but if you can make a good mono type team it is hard to beat (especially if hax interferes at the right time)

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Dragonicwari

I actually asked a few of them and they said it wasn't for a tournament. How would everyone feel about mono type being the next big thing in ou? It is hard to pull off but if you can make a good mono type team it is hard to beat (especially if hax interferes at the right time)

Monotype is pretty gimmicky, and it restricts your teambuilding too much to be really considered as an actual style of team. If you run mono water, which is one of the more common teams I see, because Politoed, you need to run Gastrodon or Quagsire for Thundurus-T, you need to run Gyarados for something that isn't eaten alive by Celebi, you need to run Starmie or Tentacruel (or, god forbid it, Blastoise) for Rapid Spin support... There's just to much going on for a team with one typing to handle without it being essentially the same team.
You could make an argument for certain teams viability, though. Mono fighting seems decent, and now that Kyurem-B is here, mono Dragon doesn't get eaten alive by Mamoswine anymore, and everyone knows that Dragspam is a very effective style of play.

[Eleman]

Yeah, I see monotype all the time on Showdown and it is getting to be very common for users who just want to have a good time. Monotype is only for the person who is not competitive and just wants to try out something new. I agree monotype is gimmicky but it is interesting to try because you have to put into account the type that the team is weak to and cover it up with another pokemon with a strategy or dual typing that counters that particular type. Team building is essential as it takes a lot of time to find the right pokemon for each team slot. Oh btw I prefer using ground as my type because of the powerful threats like Landorus that can wreck the entire metagame, although it is pretty underrated. It also sets up sand with Hippowdon and can resist water and ice with a Quagsire or your ground/water pokemon of choice. Grass is resisted by Acrobat Gliscor and Landorus.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

Monotype is pretty gimmicky, and it restricts your teambuilding too much to be really considered as an actual style of team. If you run mono water, which is one of the more common teams I see, because Politoed, you need to run Gastrodon or Quagsire for Thundurus-T, you need to run Gyarados for something that isn't eaten alive by Celebi, you need to run Starmie or Tentacruel (or, god forbid it, Blastoise) for Rapid Spin support... There's just to much going on for a team with one typing to handle without it being essentially the same team.
You could make an argument for certain teams viability, though. Mono fighting seems decent, and now that Kyurem-B is here, mono Dragon doesn't get eaten alive by Mamoswine anymore, and everyone knows that Dragspam is a very effective style of play.

Monodrag and Monofighting are probably the only two Monotypes that could be anywhere close to competitive, truth be told. Of course, they're both WRECKED by Spikes and Stealth Rock, respectively, but when you're constraining your team-building by THAT MUCH you're going to have gaping holes.

[Dcae]

I think Monowater also is competitive because it only has 2 weaknesses, and has an incredible variety of pokes to use, with Water/Grounds and spinners, etc. Lantern stops electric types too. They have access Rotom Rain as well, and thus should be considered at least decently competitive when regarding genotype teams.

[Morgenstern]

What do you guys think about DragMag? Effective but underrated? Or just bad? c: