Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

[Rayquaza_]

You're only agreeing for team preview to stay because you got used to it.
If it didn't exist, none of you would even suggest that a team preview feature was necessary at this point.

Using the argument that saving a boosting sweeper as last pokemon can turn the tables of a match is laughable, because you could have a taunt/haze/perish song/ghost curse/encore user under the wings to stop that strategy.

Likewise saying that a "surprise noob-friendly sweeper" like Terrakion could come in for free and net a free KO at any point in the match is equally stupid because 1. usage statistics are there for a reason, so that you can prepare for common threats and 2. you could also have a Terrakion counter such as Golurk or Nidoqueen under the wings to stop it.
You can bet that if team preview didn't exist pokemon such as these would be much more common in OU, because they heavily rely on surprise value to do their job.

[Infernis]

I was playing ADV again for the Tour this past weekend, and the lack of Team Preview is actually really nice. It's not too hard to adapt to the change; I managed it in a day or so. Has the enemy been conspicuously using only 5 of their Pokemon? The last one might be a cleanup Snorlax. It takes some predicting, but it's not impossible to deduce. It requires one to have an answer to everything. You can't build a team and play it like there isn't a sleepy bear in the wings unless you've either killed it or forced the enemy to use all six of their Pokemon. That's a big reason why ADV was such a slower-paced metagame. (Other than the massive move power creep*.) You can't see the entire enemy team and know that one of your Pokemon can sweep away the enemy team if you can only manage to wear down particular members.

*Gen 3 Hi Jump Kick: base 85. Gen 5 Hi Jump Kick: Base 130. Gen 3 Outrage: base 90. Gen 5 Outrage: base 120.

EDIT: Rayquaza_ speaks truth. Swampert would be completely amazing in the Tour if people didn't prepare for it with HP Grass on a third of their teams.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Originally Posted by Fat Infernis

I was playing ADV again for the Tour this past weekend, and the lack of Team Preview is actually really nice. It's not too hard to adapt to the change; I managed it in a day or so. Has the enemy been conspicuously using only 5 of their Pokemon? The last one might be a cleanup Snorlax. It takes some predicting, but it's not impossible to deduce. It requires one to have an answer to everything. You can't build a team and play it like there isn't a sleepy bear in the wings unless you've either killed it or forced the enemy to use all six of their Pokemon. That's a big reason why ADV was such a slower-paced metagame. (Other than the massive move power creep*.) You can't see the entire enemy team and know that one of your Pokemon can sweep away the enemy team if you can only manage to wear down particular members.

*Gen 3 Hi Jump Kick: base 85. Gen 5 Hi Jump Kick: Base 130. Gen 3 Outrage: base 90. Gen 5 Outrage: base 120.

EDIT: Rayquaza_ speaks truth. Swampert would be completely amazing in the Tour if people didn't prepare for it with HP Grass on a third of their teams.

Even if Outrage was base 120 in advance it wouldn't have been used much, not with the likes of Suicune and Blissey being so common in that metagame.

Really, it was the re-assigning of physical and special moves that was the biggest thing that made Gen IV and V so much more offensive imo, although obviously the power creep is still a factor.

[Abacus]

Every generation has had its own feel to it. I didn't play generation 1 or 2, but from hearsay...

Generation 1 was about fearsomely powerful pokemon with odd mechanics, chess like interactions and psychic dominance.

Generation 2 was about stall, spikes, leftovers, rest and snorlax

Generation 3 was about tight team construction, counters and choice band

Generation 4 was about setting up the right sweep, lures, and life orb

Generation 5 was about weather

My fear is that generation 6 will also be about weather. No mechanic is nearly so powerful as weather, and unless generation 6 doesn't allow imports from gen 5, then I think generation 6 will also be about weather. There's nothing wrong with gen 5 being the weather generation, I just don't want pokemon to become the weather game.

[grrgrrgrr]

I predict some abilities to be replaced, as people pointed out. It would be a great opportunity to fix past gen mistakes and prevent a retarded omaunt of ability slots. Let's make some examples:
-Dual abilities on legendaries is actually wrong, since legendaries appear once. Sure, many legendaries got pressure, so I understand they gave them a second ability, but they actually just should have replaced pressure instead. (and many legendaries didn't get a very interesting ability either, such as Articuno, Mewtwo and the Sinnoh dragons). I do want to make an exception for legendaries that have multiple ways of summoning, athough that hasn't been done yet (Would be cool if they made a R/S remake, and gave the regis two ways to summon).
-GF will likely introduce a Hail equivalent of Sand Rush (I call it Snow Rush) and Stoutland certainly deserves it. But he already has three abilities. Two of them leave him in dust, so it would be a good idea for GF to remove them on him and give Snow Rush instead. (Also, Sand Rush and Snow Rush pairs very gimmicky).
-In DP, Hitmonchan got an ability that boosts all punching moves. One would assume Hitmonlee would get an ability that boosts all kicking moves. But no, he got an ability that only boosts (Hi) Jump Kick (which was crap back then), along with an array of moves he doesn't even learn. Fix that, GF!
-Some more mons should gain a signature ability. Some funny ideas would be an ability that combines all non-signature sun-consuming abilitys for Sunflora and, an ability that priorities Electric moves for Raikou (similar ones for Entei and Suicune), and an ability that removes hazards on the end of each turn for Hitmontop. Of course, these should be their only abilities, so it would cause an ability replacement.
-I'm of an opinion that all eeveelutions should have the same ability (I was thinking of Adaptability and Quick Feet), as part of their gimmick. Not sure if GF can do this at this point, as Espeon would severely dislike it.
-Blaziken would stay in Uber if it kept Speed Boost. Starters shouldn't be uber, so I guess GF will take it away from him.
-GF blew several dream world abilities. Most notably are the Regis' abilities, as they would be perfect recepients for Analytic. (Ice Body is decent, but relies on the least used weather. Surdy is good, but kinda useless on Regirock, and Light Metal is just a shit ability in general). Other notable mons are Rapidash (it should have gotten Sap Sipper), Farfetch'd (it should have gotten Super Luck) and Ampharos (it should've gotten Lightningrod).
-GF also blew the gen3 ability distribution a little bit. I mean, almost nothing got Volt Absorb (Ampharos deserved it!).
-Ditto should have Imposter as it's only ability.

I would also like to mention something about the in-game mechanics of abilities, even though it's kinda off-topic. Up until now, every pokemon has one or two ingame abilities with the same frequence of appearing anywhere, along with one hidden ability that has to be obtained by event. I find that actually very stupid. In my book, every pokemon should have up to three ingame abilities, and the frequence of each ability varies per ingame location. That said, some ingame locations feature species with only it's first ability. Some abilities will be version exclusive, some will be event exclusive, but the amount of that will be limited. Some other factors can play as well, such as season, day of the week, and day/night.

[grrgrrgrr]

Also, I have an idea to buff hail:

Hail changes the typing of SR into Ice. This means that Ice types have an easier type of switching in under Hail, as they resist SR. Hail would also benefit Fire types, but it would be an absolute nightmare for Dragons and Grounds.

[grrgrrgrr]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

I'll never accept the idea of a 100% accurate freeze move as "broken" as long as Spore works the way it does right now.

Seconding this, especially since a 100% freeze move will be probably exclusive to Ice types (and we have Freeze Clause). And they can also introduce a 75% accurate one if a 100% one is indeed too much.

EDIT: another quote:

Originally Posted by Fat HackerKing

Personally, we NEED some overdue evolutions. I think a Zangoose evolution would actually be viable.
Toxic Boost, Swords Dance, Toxic Orb, and STAB Facade, Close Combat and Night Slash would blow holes in opponents once the fighting types were gone. The main problem with Zangoose now is its mediocre speed. Add en evolution with base 100 Speed and you have a monster at your hands.

Evolutions is something they should be careful with. Look at the DP era: many evolutions were introduced that mutilated classic mons. We don't want that to happen again. Look at Rhyperior: he is way less cool than Rhydon and his only advantage is an ability that IS usefull. As for Zangoose, they could also make him more threatening by boosting his exclusive now-100%-inferior-to-Gusts ability, Toxic Boost, by letting it Boost his attack AND Speed when poisoned. Then he is powerful AND fast.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Originally Posted by Fat grrgrrgrr

Evolutions is something they should be careful with. Look at the DP era: many evolutions were introduced that mutilated classic mons. We don't want that to happen again. Look at Rhyperior: he is way less cool than Rhydon and his only advantage is an ability that IS usefull. As for Zangoose, they could also make him more threatening by boosting his exclusive now-100%-inferior-to-Gusts ability, Toxic Boost, by letting it Boost his attack AND Speed when poisoned. Then he is powerful AND fast.

One weird thing when we discovered the Gen IV new evos was that some of them were for Pokemon that were big players in OU at the time (like Magneton and Dusclops), and others, like Rhydon and Porygon2, were viable in OU and had been in the tier at times during Gen III, and the concept of making stronger versions of those Pokemon seemed quite unnecessary at the time. Obviously, it's worked out in the end, but it goes to show it's difficult to predict how they'll work out competitively. And something ridiculous like a Scizor evolution might turn out to be pretty poor in the end.

If you're talking about their designs, I see what you mean. I found the designs of Lickilicky, Tangrowth and Magmortar, to be pretty awful at first. They could've been a lot more appealing. I've got used to them now though. Some of the others were decent.

[WarriorPrince]

Originally Posted by Fat grrgrrgrr

-GF will likely introduce a Hail equivalent of Sand Rush (I call it Snow Rush) and Stoutland certainly deserves it. But he already has three abilities. Two of them leave him in dust, so it would be a good idea for GF to remove them on him and give Snow Rush instead. (Also, Sand Rush and Snow Rush pairs very gimmicky).

-Fix that, GF!
-Blaziken would stay in Uber if it kept Speed Boost. Starters shouldn't be uber, so I guess GF will take it away from him.

-GF blew several dream world abilities.

.........................

I hope you don't actually believe that Gamefreak will implement these changes /fixes because of the impact it will have on the metagame or at the request of competitive batters.....

If that were the case, they would have changed a TON of things that players have been crying for for certain Pokemon for years.

Yes, they did make competitive breeding MUCH easier, but I've yet to see them do much to a Pokemon's abilities (or anything else of the sort) for the sake of competitiveness....

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat grrgrrgrr

Evolutions is something they should be careful with. Look at the DP era: many evolutions were introduced that mutilated classic mons. We don't want that to happen again. Look at Rhyperior: he is way less cool than Rhydon and his only advantage is an ability that IS usefull. As for Zangoose, they could also make him more threatening by boosting his exclusive now-100%-inferior-to-Gusts ability, Toxic Boost, by letting it Boost his attack AND Speed when poisoned. Then he is powerful AND fast.

Personally, I like most of the DPP evolutions. Yeah, Magmortar and Lickilicky are shameful (although Lickitung itself was pretty shameful too), but I've found that Pokemon like Magnezone and Rhyperior have grown on me. Plus, Honchkrow and Togekiss are and always have been awesome.

Buffing Toxic Boost would make it pretty overpowered, in my opinion. Yeah as it stands Toxic Boost is inferior to Guts, but it's fitting with Zangoose's flavor, since he's worst enemies with the poisonous Seviper (shame he didn't get a cool Dream World ability though).

If there was one Pokemon I'd want to see get a new evolution, it'd be Camerupt. I mean, it's a fucking volcano camel, it's such a shame that it sucks. All they'd really need to do is up it's bulk a notch and he wouldn't necessarily be top tier, but he'd be much more viable nevertheless.

[GrassBlade]

Personally, I want to see something like a defensive Mold Breaker. I'm not sure how Mold Breaker works defensively, but maybe something that removes the opponent's ability. Then, the Reuniclus they have can get poison stalled. Or maybe Magic Guard is gone. Moxie not giving them more attack. Sheer Force pokemon taking LO recoil. It would be amazing on a decent wall.

[Cobraroll]

I wonder if XY will have the same amount of "loot" as BW2 had. Funfest Missions, PokéStar Studios, Join Avenue... you get TONS of stuff for free in these games. That includes several items you don't need many of, such as Magmarizers and Up-grades (and Hard Stones...). I've got a feeling that even if TMs had been single-use still, we wouldn't have much of a shortage of them with all the handing out. The flow of money has been greatly increased as well, with both money sinks and money sources blooming everywhere.

Anyway, the competitive effect of this is that it becomes easier and easier to get those "perfect" 'mons previously "exclusive" to simulators. EV training is easier, levelling can be done a lot faster, and you can get awesome moves on your Pokémon easier than ever before (For instance, I never really got around to use TM26 in my Gen. I-IV games. I kept thinking I'd sooner or later come across a Pokémon that really could use Earthquake to its fullest potential. I never did).


Also, the last time Smogon closed the XY speculation/discussion thread, GameFreak announced a new Pokémon within hours. The current attempt to replicate the success has so far been fruitless.

(Knowing my luck, we'll see news in a day or two. Or rather, you will. I'll be up in the mountains for a week without Internet, so any revelations will probably be discussed to death by the time I return).

[FrostFire]

Hey, so just googled "Pokemon x and y news" on the off chance, and found this:

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/article...lveon-type.htm

Apparently the official pokemon twitter announced that there would be 'big news' coming out this Saturday. The website above suggests that it's about Sylveon's typing, but I think that's just a complete stab in the dark on their part. Still, we might finally have something new to chew on in a little less than a week :)

(NB:// You can also see the announcement on the official twitter page here - just scroll down a bit: https://twitter.com/Pokemon )

[Cobraroll]

This might be more relevant to Ubers than to OU, if real, but...
http://serebii.net/index2.shtml

New Mewtwo forme?

[Princess Bri]

I swear GameFreak will see hail as the worst weather, so they'll make an Ice-type Pokémon with like the Special Attack of Chandelure and the speed of Jolteon coupled with Ice Body.

1 0 0 0

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gr8- you're the fucking best and i love you. i hope my bad influence hasn't made you evil and trolly irl.
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anyone else i forgot im sory but i'm fucking lazy

[Scorpio]

Originally Posted by Fat Cobraroll

This might be more relevant to Ubers than to OU, if real, but...
http://serebii.net/index2.shtml

New Mewtwo forme?

Fake. Fake-o. Faken von Fakemeister. Falsified.

I mean seriously, since when did GF decide to wait four whole gens to give a legendary a new form? If anything, it'll be Genesect getting a new form.

[TLo]

sandstorm has 3 immune types, ground rock and steel
i feel like hail should share this idea, the three immune would be ice (obviously), fire (melts ice?) and steel (because steel)

[Dcae]

I think what Hail really needs to be viable is moar abusing abilities. Make something like Sledding, which is the equivalent of Swift Swim, and more Ice Body abusers that are viable. That would give justification to run Hail in OU. Also, more stuff like Mamoswine that are amazing anti meta and have godly STABs without an SR weakness.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat TLo

sandstorm has 3 immune types, ground rock and steel
i feel like hail should share this idea, the three immune would be ice (obviously), fire (melts ice?) and steel (because steel)

For the love of god no more buffing Steel.

[Hemp Man]

Wouldn't making Fire immune to Hail make Hail even worse? Ice is weak to Fire...

[victinivcreate1]

How about an Ice Fighting type with MASSIVE ATTACK but bad physical defense. Lets say 100 HP and 80 special defense.

Oh yeah with access to Ice Shard and Mach Punch and Swords Dance.

100/140/60/70/80/85

Thats fairly balanced in my opinion.


And how about buffing Icicle Crash to 100% accuracy. 90% makes no sense.

[keleyeemoh]

Originally Posted by Fat victinivcreate1

How about an Ice Fighting type with MASSIVE ATTACK but bad physical defense. Lets say 100 HP and 80 special defense.

Oh yeah with access to Ice Shard and Mach Punch and Swords Dance.

100/140/60/70/80/85

Thats fairly balanced in my opinion.


And how about buffing Icicle Crash to 100% accuracy. 90% makes no sense.

And then not give it Icicle Crash or Ice Punch or any useful physical Ice-type attacks!

[Agent Gibbs]

Originally Posted by Fat victinivcreate1

And how about buffing Icicle Crash to 100% accuracy. 90% makes no sense.

Adding to that, I think it would be cool if Rock Slide were boosted to 100% accuracy. If we have to use Rock Slide as a weaker but more accurate alternative to Stone Edge, it would be nice if it were at least perfectly accurate. A boost to 80 BP would also be nice, since that would give it a little extra bite and effectively make it a Rock-type Iron Head.

Also, I think Feint should be set back to 50 BP like it used to be. They made it so it now hits the opponent even if they don't use Protect/Detect, still hitting them even if they do, and it still has +2 priority. It would be a cool move if only they didn't lower its BP to 30. I think it would really be nice on CB Scizor as a slightly stronger Quick Attack that can bypass an occasional Mach Punch or something.

[Dcae]

Originally Posted by Fat Agent Gibbs

Adding to that, I think it would be cool if Rock Slide were boosted to 100% accuracy. If we have to use Rock Slide as a weaker but more accurate alternative to Stone Edge, it would be nice if it were at least perfectly accurate. A boost to 80 BP would also be nice, since that would give it a little extra bite and effectively make it a Rock-type Iron Head.

The thing is when there is a Rock Slide, there is a possibility you can avoid it. Same with Icicle Crash. As much as I hate missing with Rock Slide (happens to me all the time with Drilbur in LC), it would not make sense for them to have perfect accuracy. The flavor of the moves are inherently made to possibly miss, which makes it more realistic. However, I completely agree that it should be buffed, IMO to 85 BP.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Originally Posted by Fat Cobraroll

This might be more relevant to Ubers than to OU, if real, but...
http://serebii.net/index2.shtml

New Mewtwo forme?

Well, we don't know what Ubers and OU are going to look like next generation do we? I certainly hope we don't autoban this just because it looks like/is another form of Mewtwo lol.

I wonder what its stats will be like. I think maybe the same stats as Mewtwo just re-arranged?

Mew and Mewtwo are probably going to be included in the storyline if its genetics related. Maybe Deoxys too, I wonder if we might get new Deoxys formes too. Perhaps a physical and a special one.

And with regards to moves base powers, I really don't want many more to be increased. Perhaps it's just because I started playing in RBY, but Pokemon have such huge movepools now, and access to numerous strong attacks. Sometimes I think it's getting a bit much. Like it used to be special if a Pokemon of a certain type had access to a move of a certain type, but now it seems pretty common.