OU Stats - February 2k13

[BurningMan]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

Late game sweeping can be done by many pokemon so I continue to fail to realize why people love Lucario so much. It has a great defensive typing yet its frail. Its main sweeping moves are all weak priority moves, too. I feel like new players are the cause for it's high usage.

SD+E-Speed is something evey offensive pokemon would kill for. Stab Close Combat handles every thing that resists it and Lucario actually hits harder than terrakion given that it can afford to run adamant and also uses LO something Terrakion somehow never uses.

it is a great late game cleaner simply because priority moves are absolutly amazing to sweep with since you don't have to fear choice scarf users or faster pokemon at all so the only way to stop lucario is to have something that can actually take a +2 E-Speed wich can be very hard late game since after 2 SR switch-ins almost every offensive Pokemon gets KO'd

[Tabuu]

Yea dog. Stop this Lucario hate.
His ability to clean weakened teams, guarenteed, is something not too many Pokemon can brag about.

[spooky96]

Who's hating Lucario? I just said its just not as useful as before. And what? Do you actually put a slot on your team while making a team and saying "I necessarily need a late game sweeper, I think I'll add this Pokemon."

[Jelandee]

The access to such strong priority is primarily the only reason why anyone uses Lucario over any other sweeper, especially considering the fact that it can take on the common Techniloom with ease, as well as several other priority sweepers. As a result, this makes Lucario virtually unstoppable after an SD, once its counters are weakened. The sad thing is people don't seem to realize that, and endlessly compare it to Terrakion, unaware of the fact that it can't deal with the same threats as easily as Lucario can.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat spooky96

Who's hating Lucario? I just said its just not as useful as before. And what? Do you actually put a slot on your team while making a team and saying "I necessarily need a late game sweeper, I think I'll add this Pokemon."

...Yeah, kind of. That's why people use Scarf Salamence, Agility Thunderus-T, RP Landorus, and Swords Dance Breloom, just to name a few.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat BurningMan

SD+E-Speed is something evey offensive pokemon would kill for. Stab Close Combat handles every thing that resists it and Lucario actually hits harder than terrakion given that it can afford to run adamant and also uses LO something Terrakion somehow never uses.

it is a great late game cleaner simply because priority moves are absolutly amazing to sweep with since you don't have to fear choice scarf users or faster pokemon at all so the only way to stop lucario is to have something that can actually take a +2 E-Speed wich can be very hard late game since after 2 SR switch-ins almost every offensive Pokemon gets KO'd

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

Yea dog. Stop this Lucario hate.
His ability to clean weakened teams, guarenteed, is something not too many Pokemon can brag about.

Late game sweepers typically don't even have priority whatsoever. They rely on speed-boosting moves or a choice scarf. E-speed having a +2 priority as opposed to +1 is unnecessary most of the time. It's an un-STAB'd priority move that cannot hit ANYTHING super-effectively. Can people stop having 4th gen nostalgia regarding Lucario and just accept it that it should probably be put into the same boat as Infernape and Cloyster? If you're looking for a late game sweeper specifically with E-speed, use Dragonite. Hell, I would even consider Arcanine depending on the team I'm using.

[Tassa]

Lucario can be revenged by mon with a resistance to E-speed (or better, an immunity) which are faster (scarf can be used) and able to OHKO him (not the harder part). Such mons include ScarfTar, all variant of Terrakion (and THIS is what is really bad for him), ScarfTran (unplayed), Gengar (which has to rely on Focus Blast) and it is nearly all. Some other mons avec the necessary bulk to survive a hit and KO back (Hippodown, Keldeo) or phaze it (Skarm), but they are few and need to be near max health. Last way is to Life Orb stall him, but it always mean losing one or two mon.

There are really few mon that can inflict such pressure if you let them one "free" turn (that he can gain). It's not a monster, we can play around by smart play, but he's in no way as bad as you pretend him to be.

[spooky96]

Yes finally someone hit the reality, 4th gen nostalgic people are supporting as hell. Its not even an effective late game sweeper, E-Speed is non STAB move with no super effectives to hit. Plus its still slow, a lot of faster Pokemon have been introduced. So if by any chance your enemy survives, you'll be KO'ed. Goes without saying as defenses are non-existent.

And the person who wrote the analysis for Lucario is accurate - 4 movepool syndrome or something. You'll always desperately want a 5th move.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat spooky96

Yes finally someone hit the reality, 4th gen nostalgic people are supporting as hell. Its not even an effective late game sweeper, E-Speed is non STAB move with no super effectives to hit. Plus its still slow, a lot of faster Pokemon have been introduced. So if by any chance your enemy survives, you'll be KO'ed. Goes without saying as defenses are non-existent.

And the person who wrote the analysis for Lucario is accurate - 4 movepool syndrome or something. You'll always desperately want a 5th move.

Ok, I think I've figured it out. When was the last time you used Lucario? A few weeks ago I built a team around Hydreigon with Lucario as my cleaner, and as much as I wanted the team to be centered around my favorite purple dragon, Lucario stole the spotlight in almost every match. Use Extremespeed, Close Combat, and Bullet Punch and all the counters you mentioned are beaten at +2. The only thing you have to worry about at that point is Jellicent and Gliscor, which can easily be beaten with teammates. Other than that, you will clean up like nobodies business. Seriously, try taking a look at False Sense's last RMT with Gary2346. They used a Lucario and the team is great. It isn't even close to comparable to Infernape, because it has a whole lot more resistances (seriously, x4 resisting Rock and Dark makes him great for absorbing Choice-locked Terrakion and Tyranitar!), and his main STAB isn't cut in half by rain. Cloyster is SR weak and has to lower its already crap SDef to set up, or rely on Focus Sash. It can't come in on many Choice locked Pokémon (Azumarill...maybe?), and therefor doesn't have as many chances to set up as Lucario. Seriously, Lucario is fantastic, and if you don't think it is, you must not have seen it in action.

[Jelandee]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

Late game sweepers typically don't even have priority whatsoever. They rely on speed-boosting moves or a choice scarf. E-speed having a +2 priority as opposed to +1 is unnecessary most of the time. It's an un-STAB'd priority move that cannot hit ANYTHING super-effectively. Can people stop having 4th gen nostalgia regarding Lucario and just accept it that it should probably be put into the same boat as Infernape and Cloyster? If you're looking for a late game sweeper specifically with E-speed, use Dragonite. Hell, I would even consider Arcanine depending on the team I'm using.

Take mind that despite being non STAB, E-Speed still holds a significant difference in power than other available priority moves. Hell, it can even be compared to STAB Technician priority moves in that sense. Also, regarding your comment on Dragonite and Arcanine, with being a late game sweeper, Lucario can easily find much better opportunities to come in and set up, as it has no problem with Stealth Rock, unlike the former. I'm not trying to take up for Lucario entirely, as i do believe that there can be better options for its role depending on your team, but it still has a nice niche that separates it from the rest of the crowd.

[Tabuu]

I hope you realize that the following happens for Lucario:
If it runs Crunch: It just needs Pokemon such as Terrakion, Gengar, Scarf Tyranitar, Landorus-T and Gliscor out of the way.
If it has Ice Punch: Pokemon such as Jellicent and Reuniclus need to go.
If it has Bullet Punch pokemon such as Slowbro Jellicent and Gliscor need to be eliminated first.
After these requirements are fulfilled, along with the assist of LO, SD and SR, nothing can stop a Lucario sweep.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat Jelandee

Take mind that despite being non STAB, E-Speed still holds a significant difference in power than other available priority moves. Hell, it can even be compared to STAB Technician priority moves in that sense. Also, regarding your comment on Dragonite and Arcanine, with being a late game sweeper, Lucario can easily find much better opportunities to come in and set up, as it has no problem with Stealth Rock, unlike the former. I'm not trying to take up for Lucario entirely, as i do believe that there can be better options for its role depending on your team, but it still has a nice niche that separates it from the rest of the crowd.

I'm gonna have to stop you right there. The only meaningful users of Technician are Scizor and Breloom and they hit WAY harder than Lucarios E-speed. The power of their priority moves after boosts are 90 with a base 130 attack, while Lucario's E-speed is 80 at base 110 attack. Not only that, but that power could be doubled in Scizor's case, or even quadrupled in Breloom's case. If you want to change my opinion, show me a PS! replay of Lucario getting someone a late-game sweep with E-speed. Until then, I will be grouping it with the likes of Nape and Cloyster since they get higher usage than they should for one reason or another.

[Vemane]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

I'm gonna have to stop you right there. The only meaningful users of Technician are Scizor and Breloom and they hit WAY harder than Lucarios E-speed. The power of their priority moves after boosts are 90 with a base 130 attack, while Lucario's E-speed is 80 at base 110 attack. Not only that, but that power could be doubled in Scizor's case, or even quadrupled in Breloom's case. If you want to change my opinion, show me a PS! replay of Lucario getting someone a late-game sweep with E-speed. Until then, I will be grouping it with the likes of Nape and Cloyster since they get higher usage than they should for one reason or another.

If you have never seen a lucario sweep then you must not have been playing for very long

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

If you have never seen a lucario sweep then you must not have been playing for very long

An E-speed sweep, no, I have not. I wouldn't say im very experienced but I have been playing since about the end of 4th gen and going through smogon since the introduction of BW2 in June. I have swept with Lucario, but with a special double dance set with perfect coverage. I'm still waiting on those replays...

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

An E-speed sweep, no, I have not. I wouldn't say im very experienced but I have been playing since about the end of 4th gen and going through smogon since the introduction of BW2 in June. I have swept with Lucario, but with a special double dance set with perfect coverage. I'm still waiting on those replays...

Here. I would have clean swept him, but he forfeit before I could. Lucario is a beast!

EDIT: Actually, this one is even better and it's a full team sweep on a standard HO Tyranitar+Keldeo+Landorus team. THIS is enough to show you that Lucario rocks.

[spooky96]

Damn man, that was something truly awesome. Been ages since I saw Lucario shine that awesomely. Might as well try it with good team support to see how good it works for me.

Though setting up is still not a very easy task. Just saying that your sweep can easily be stopped by a Jellicent. (Which I use in a lot of my teams)

[Subject 18]

Originally Posted by Fat spooky96

Damn man, that was something truly awesome. Been ages since I saw Lucario shine that awesomely. Might as well try it with good team support to see how good it works for me.

Though setting up is still not a very easy task. Just saying that your sweep can easily be stopped by a Jellicent. (Which I use in a lot of my teams)

If Jellicent is an issue you can always run Crunch over Bullet Punch. Though I generally use Ice Punch and pair Lucario with Tyranitar to help with Jellicent.

[Wizarus]

Lucario can use its typing to get free turns, but this is BW2, Lucario is taking a massive amount of damage from resisted moves, to the point where you end up dying to LO recoil anyway(if you're not OHKO'd regardless if Spikes are up). I've used Lucario, I've seen it sweep. It can work and it is very satisfying when it does, but I think people are assuming these free turns are going to come out of nowhere when your opponent's checks to Luke are eliminated/worn down, especially when you are facing a competent opponent that knows what you're trying to do.

[spooky96]

Well yeah of course pairing up is always an option. Its like Lucario really has a move problem always. If you pick X over Y move than Z Pokemon will wall you no matter what.

Your suggestion for Lucario + T-tar is good, doing that would really make a strong pair up, because of course Tyranitar can destroy it with a physical hit/can Pursuit trap.

I never used Ice Punch on Lucario because its rather useless. You'll only be using on Dragon types and Landorus. And all of them (besides Dragonite) are faster than Lucario, so you're actually just better off with only E-Speed to deal with them. What I would prefer is Swords Dance/Close Combat/ExtremeSpeed/Crunch and pair up with a Pokemon who does good against Gengar.

Now simply talking about other late game sweepers such as Agility Thundurus-T with Modest nature. With its moves being Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Hidden Power Ice/Agility. This set nearly hits either supper effective or neutral at worst (Which Lucario often fails to achieve). The only check is Gastrodon, but how often do you see it? And plus some Thundurus carry Grass Knot too, which is a OHKO I guess.

[Subject 18]

Ice Punch is also for Gliscor if that poses an issue for your team. However, generally Crunch/Bullet Punch is usually better.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat Halcyon of Light

Here. I would have clean swept him, but he forfeit before I could. Lucario is a beast!

EDIT: Actually, this one is even better and it's a full team sweep on a standard HO Tyranitar+Keldeo+Landorus team. THIS is enough to show you that Lucario rocks.

First off, congrats on getting this done in under a week. Its not like you had the weekend to do something like this. Oh wait...

Secondly, I faced that person in your first battle recently and they sucked. It is proven by how they just wasted their Abomasnow so carelessly.

Third, the following sweep is pretty legit. BP Celebi was a good choice. The kid could have stalled you out by double switching but it seemed like he gave up already.

Overall, ehh, I'm still not convinced. That +3 from the Justified boost is what gave Lucario that sweep since Landorus can take one E-speed after SR at +2, but not +3.

Originally Posted by Fat BlackRussian

Ice is also for Gliscor if that poses an issue for your team. However, generally Crunch/Bullet Punch is usually better.

Ice punch is standard on SD Lucario in OU, while Crunch is standard on its Ubers set.

[/B/utterfree]

Originally Posted by Fat spooky96

Though setting up is still not a very easy task. Just saying that your sweep can easily be stopped by a Jellicent. (Which I use in a lot of my teams)

Huh? This is coming from a guy who uses Special Lucario, but Jellicent in no way stops Lucario's sweep unless it's the physical set and the Lucario user neglected to acquire Crunch. Even then, it might have an alternate move to hit Jellicent hard with (Thunderpunch anyone?)

[spooky96]

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

Huh? This is coming from a guy who uses Special Lucario, but Jellicent in no way stops Lucario's sweep unless it's the physical set and the Lucario user neglected to acquire Crunch. Even then, it might have an alternate move to hit Jellicent hard with (Thunderpunch anyone?)

Is it really so hard for people to believe that no matter what you do you always get walled by something? Just think more. It kind of gets annoying when I have to repeat. Lucario maybe good after a Swords Dance, but still its really outclassed by better late gamers. Even though the replays were good, the first trainer really wasn't good and the second I'm sure that +2.5 mattered somewhere, though it was still pretty good.

Lucario also has four moveslot syndrome, which prevents it from covering every single relevant threat.

Just in case you you have 2 mins... http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/lucario

[Vemane]

Originally Posted by Fat spooky96

Is it really so hard for people to believe that no matter what you do you always get walled by something? Just think more. It kind of gets annoying when I have to repeat. Lucario maybe good after a Swords Dance, but still its really outclassed by better late gamers. Even though the replays were good, the first trainer really wasn't good and the second I'm sure that +2.5 mattered somewhere, though it was still pretty good.

Lucario also has four moveslot syndrome, which prevents it from covering every single relevant threat.

Just in case you you have 2 mins... http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/lucario

Yes, you will always be walled by something.

With something being gliscor and jellicent.

However, who the hell can use gliscor in this meta? 4/6 of a rain team can 1hko it. Gliscor is often a liability, and one that, honestly, has little use currently.

Jellicent, quite simply, can be pursuit trapped if it is the sole liability stunting a lucario sweep.

I, personally, am not the biggest fan of lucario. But I have been swept by one a significant number of times, namely due to the offensive nature of most of my teams.

But defensive teams are even more hard pressed to wall it. That close combat can 1hko skarmory after rocks iirc.

So... yeah.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

But defensive teams are even more hard pressed to wall it. That close combat can 1hko skarmory after rocks iirc.

So... yeah.

False.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-169 (42.51 - 50.59%) -- 51.95% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Please do not tell me it's impressive that he has a chance to OHKO Skarm at +2 either.