32 turns of stall in the Hail: Walrein - Page 3

Boa1891 · Aug 27th, 2007, 6:16:48 PM

Just as a note, Double-Layered Toxic Spikes can't be absorbed. They need to be rapid-spun. It also means almost nothing can out-stall you besides stuff like Restwhoring Rain Dance Manaphy or Cleric Blissey (hi roar), because Toxic gets to what, 93.5% HP per turn IIRC? (OHKO with Hail) This works intensely well if you can somehow KO their spinner, too; Just set TS back up and go for the final kill.
Best use is with a Dugtrio. Switch in on the Spin and OHKO, and later you can switch him in on something else to at least temporarily stop something from switching to kill the Toxic pain. And finally, Dugtrio works as a perfect revenge killer for most anything with Guts, meaning you just need to sacrifice something to get him in and then stop their sweep dead.

As for the people saying "lol poison heal Breloom", you've forgotten
-immensely less hp/defenses
-can't do it 'identically' without lefties, which means it needs to switch in on toxic or something, which is tough to set up
-It's got better things to do.

I REALLY like this set, but I say that about a lot of fresh and unique sets.

As a side-note, Choice Scarf Weavile is the suck. Use Band or Expert Belt, because it barely needs the extra speed, but with its low attack BP it certainly needs the damage boost.

Dragontamer · Aug 27th, 2007, 6:36:06 PM

Quote:

Just as a note, Double-Layered Toxic Spikes can't be absorbed. They need to be rapid-spun.

If anyone else said that, I wouldn't have believed them. Now to create a patch for Shoddybattle...

-----

The coolest thing about this set is that it can't be countered. Indeed, switching IN the counter will allow me to use Substitute, and then on the 2nd turn I'll be using protect. 3rd turn, I'll use Substitute again to replace the one you're about to break. Once the momentum swings in Walrein's favor, he'll hold on with an iron grip for 32 turns... until Raikou Roar or +Speed Skarms or T-Tar comes out.

Even if T-Tar comes out after you've laid the toxic spikes, you just have to stall for 6 turns before he dies from the toxic. A full health Walrein can stall for 6 turns without the hail... and you can always smack him with Surf to speed up the process.

Thus narrowing the counter down to a T-Tar who is faster and has Taunt.

Dalevl · Aug 27th, 2007, 6:45:59 PM

I can't help but think that Charm is a viable move for this set. Of course,you would have to drop either Substitute or Protect, unless you want to run the chance of being being Taunted away into self-denial.

Dragontamer · Aug 27th, 2007, 6:52:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Dalevl

I can't help but think that Charm is a viable move for this set. Of course,you would have to drop either Substitute or Protect, unless you want to run the chance of being being Taunted away into self-denial.

Walrein doesn't learn charm...

Dalevl · Aug 27th, 2007, 6:53:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Dragontamer

Walrein doesn't learn charm...

XD Move

Chimpakt · Aug 27th, 2007, 7:34:25 PM

Encore/Trick can also stop this, but I haven't had any experience facing this. And Stealth Rock could do lots of damage to this.

Bologo · Aug 27th, 2007, 7:47:38 PM

Yeah, in particular Magic Guard Clefable could beat this easily. It can Encore any of Walrein's moves and then spam Thunderbolt which may force Walrein to switch out.

Toxic Spikes will actually help Clefable because it will get Toxiced, but it won't take any damage from it. It also takes no damage from Hail so it will get Leftovers recovery. It's also immune to Stealth Rock/Spikes and will be in tip-top shape to fight Walrein off. It can also take pitiful damage from Walrein's attacks because it has no offense with the EVs you gave it. It'll just shrug off the hit and Softboiled off the damage.

Even if Walrein tries to Roar out Clefable, it will get smacked by a Thunderbolt since Roar will go last. This will do a lot of damage still because you didn't give it any special defense EVs.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that Rock Blast can also counter this seeing as it can bust through the sub with a Super-Effective hit and then do residual damage after it's broken the sub. This means that something like Armaldo may be able to stop it from stalling, as it can knock off the leftovers and use Rock Blast.

On the plus side of this moveset though, Blizzard may be able to make up for the craptastic offenses this spread has, and stealth rock/spikes can be very deadly with this moveset. I do kinda wonder how you plan to deal with special attacks such as Leaf Storm though.

Damanzi · Aug 27th, 2007, 7:49:58 PM

Awesome, I can't wait until every team is carrying a clefable to counter this.

QibingZero · Aug 27th, 2007, 8:26:26 PM

Protect or Sub Brelooms are a serious problem for many teams, but in general Breloom doesn't have the defenses or typing to pull off a serious stall like this. I use a more defensive one from time to time (Adamant with no attack EVs still Focus Punches things into oblivion), and while it laughs at anything that can't OHKO it, and utterly destroys slower teams, it's still too frail to keep in against counters that aren't put to sleep.

More on topic, this is a great thought-provoking post. I can't help but wonder how a specs Glaceon would fare on a team like this.

Something like:
Glaceon@Choice Specs
- Blizzard
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Shadow Ball
- Sleep Talk / Ice Beam
Modest - 204hp/252spatk/52spd

I know it's a more stall-ish team, but this seems impossible to resist on a hail team. Very few things would want to take a STAB Blizzard coming from that kind of SpA (Empoleon and Heatran come to mind, as well as the few Water/Ice combos, all of which are weak to HP fighting). Unlike SpecsMence, you're not taking a SpA drop by using an attack nearly as powerful, and you have hail to back you up.

Some calculations:

Standard Bold Blissey: 35.15% - 41.46%
- That's around 1% less of it's health than the first SpecsMence Draco Meteor takes off. This also has the benefit of hail countering leftovers, and can possibly freeze. If it's willing to risk the possibility of a freeze or critical, it can try to stall with softboiled.

Max SpD/HP Calm Cresselia: 44.37% - 52.03%
- I don't know how many people actually run something like this (I would imagine very few, but maybe coming in on specials and putting up a reflect...), but mentioning it gives a lot of perspective. Cresselia isn't doing anything to Glaceon either way, especially not in hail.

Infernape: 71.91% - 84.62%
- Possible death if stealth rock is out, bad switch in even when it's not. With hail damage and likely a life orb, it's not doing much of anything.

Non-bulky Lucario: 77.30% - 90.78%
- Even with it's 4x stealth rock resist, it still has a very slim chance of dying after hail damage.

Bulky Lucario: 53.20% - 62.50%
- This is a silly situation. Even if it doesn't swords dance, you could likely stay in and KO on the next Blizzard, because Close Combat has only a 10% chance of OHKOing. Very dangerous though, because any versions in between this one and the 'normal' sweeping Lucarios will easily OHKO.

Sweeping Kabutops: 81.65% - 95.88%
- It's hard to even make a Kabutops to specifically counter this Glaceon, as even max attack Adamant OHKOs with stone edge only half the time, and max sp.defensive still risks a 2HKO.

Weavile: 63.92% - 75.26%
- Immune to hail damage, but still not good, unless there to revenge kill. Jolly CB Brick Break does 64.67% - 76.05% back to Glaceon and even Adamant CB versions only do around 70-85%. Being weak to stealth rock doesn't help either.

Standard Houndoom: 65.12% - 76.41%
- Obligatory weak to Stealth Rock mention. If stealth rock is not out, it survives a bit and OHKOs.

Metagross: 48.90% - 57.42%
- Metagross will OHKO with Meteor Mash, but 52 speed EVs is all Glaceon needs to outspeed all but Agiligross and secure the kill. Note that a weird leftovers variety Metagross has a chance of surviving.

Heavy SpD Bronzong: 35.50% - 41.72%
- Sleeptalk versions of this can stall somewhat (only because of the low Blizzard PP), but while gyro ball can possibly 2HKO (assuming the slowest possible Bronzong), it dies before it can get off a second. Explosion works, however.

Scizor: 69.50% - 81.56%
- CB/Life orb versions with Iron Head can OHKO, and will be faster. Anything else dies.

Poliwrath:
- Brick Break is only a 2HKO, even on the CB version. Bulky Poliwrath (252 HP) takes 46.35% - 54.43% and has a chance to survive the second hit with leftovers. Anything less than 144 EVs in HP has zero chance of surviving the second Blizzard.

As far as weather changers go... Hippowdon isn't even worth mentioning, and Tyranitar takes a lot of risks switching in because it can't be sure it's faster, and you'll also be carrying HP fighting.

L E A V E1 · Aug 27th, 2007, 9:12:44 PM

Question, what is your full team?

Dragontamer · Aug 27th, 2007, 9:17:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bologo

Yeah, in particular Magic Guard Clefable could beat this easily. It can Encore any of Walrein's moves and then spam Thunderbolt which may force Walrein to switch out.

Toxic Spikes will actually help Clefable because it will get Toxiced, but it won't take any damage from it. It also takes no damage from Hail so it will get Leftovers recovery. It's also immune to Stealth Rock/Spikes and will be in tip-top shape to fight Walrein off. It can also take pitiful damage from Walrein's attacks because it has no offense with the EVs you gave it. It'll just shrug off the hit and Softboiled off the damage.

Even if Walrein tries to Roar out Clefable, it will get smacked by a Thunderbolt since Roar will go last. This will do a lot of damage still because you didn't give it any special defense EVs.

Considering that Specs-Starmie doesn't 2-hit KO, I doubt that this "smack" is going to burn too much. However, Encore seems like a real threat from Clefable, as well as Softboiled and immunity to hail and toxic.

Chill · Aug 27th, 2007, 9:24:10 PM

You did suggest pairing this with Dugtrio so if anyone is planning on encore + thunderbolt, you've got options there.

Epistaxis · Aug 27th, 2007, 9:43:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SWChill

You did suggest pairing this with Dugtrio so if anyone is planning on encore + thunderbolt, you've got options there.

Until you get ice beamed from Fable.

**ΩDonut** · Aug 27th, 2007, 10:02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat yoshididdy

Encore/Trick can also stop this, but I haven't had any experience facing this. And Stealth Rock could do lots of damage to this.

Encore, probably. Trick, no. Trick doesn't go through Substitute in either Advance or DP. It was a Netbattle bug.

Chill · Aug 27th, 2007, 10:11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Epistaxis

Until you get ice beamed from Fable.

How much damage does Clefable take from Dugtrios EQ? Because dugtrio will be going first.

Sovereign · Aug 27th, 2007, 10:15:28 PM

Wow, remind me to never battle the original author of this topic. Yea that walrein is effective once you get it in on a slow poke, but that is just gay. This is no different than protect/sub zapdos from 3rd generation: it will only piss off people, and eventually you won't get any battlers because your style will be just a retarded (yet effective) one.

Epistaxis · Aug 27th, 2007, 10:19:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SWChill

How much damage does Clefable take from Dugtrios EQ? Because dugtrio will be going first.

Max Attack, +Nature, CB duggy never OHKOs Fable, while Fable can easily OHKO duggy.

Damanzi · Aug 27th, 2007, 10:22:56 PM

How many EV's into SDEF does Adamant Duggy need to survive Fable's ice-beam reliably?

Dragontamer · Aug 27th, 2007, 10:30:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jebroni

Wow, remind me to never battle the original author of this topic. Yea that walrein is effective once you get it in on a slow poke, but that is just gay. This is no different than protect/sub zapdos from 3rd generation: it will only piss off people, and eventually you won't get any battlers because your style will be just a retarded (yet effective) one.

If it is retarded enough (See Wobbuffet) it will be banned. I somehow doubt that this set is that effective though, especially when a few decent counters have been made (Clefable... and T-Tar). Today in ShoddyBattle, I found a new one. A guy constantly spammed Toxic at my team, and one of his faster pokemon hit me with Toxic before I got a sub up. So that is also a solid counter.

Sovereign · Aug 27th, 2007, 10:44:10 PM

Everything has its counters. Zapdos with protect/sub combo could be broken by a faster poke, yet that wasn't banned, and the counters are situational. Nobody is going to carry a clefable or a ttar (perhaps it will be on the opponents' team by coincidence) JUST to make sure this walrein goes down.

Pyr0 · Aug 27th, 2007, 10:45:29 PM

Actually, I like the introduction of stalling in D/P (I recently fought a stall-team and boy that thing challenged me to do my best) but this set isn't "All-mighty" first and most important, It must be hard to switch the walrus in.
second, the ever-present taunt, yes I know the main Pokemon that use taunt are weak to Walrein's attacks, but you never know what other things might back it just for the sake of killing you. (some weird ass weavile comes to mind) and third, this kind of set REALLY depends on the team as a WHOLE, and well, lets just say that if given the chance, a good Mixed sweeper with a fire attack will swallow it real fast.

Props to the thread maker for such a wonderful set, keep up the good job!

Queen · Aug 27th, 2007, 10:57:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat BigSh0t

How many EV's into SDEF does Adamant Duggy need to survive Fable's ice-beam reliably?

In order for an Adamant Dugtrio to take an Ice Beam from a standard boltbeam Clefable and receive less than 90% max damage it's going to need roughly 96+ EVs in Sp. Def.

nomargu46 · Aug 27th, 2007, 11:10:53 PM

If you want to make Walrein a complete gimmick staller, Aqua Ring can be a fun move to play around with (although i dont really reccommend it)

Kimi3013 · Aug 27th, 2007, 11:32:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Queen

In order for an Adamant Dugtrio to take an Ice Beam from a standard boltbeam Clefable and receive less than 90% max damage it's going to need roughly 96+ EVs in Sp. Def.

It'll need more to take <84% as hail will take another 6% and kill it after Life Orb. That is if you don't want it to die.

Queen · Aug 27th, 2007, 11:49:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Kimi3013

It'll need more to take <84% as hail will take another 6% and kill it after Life Orb. That is if you don't want it to die.

And that's not even factoring in the potential Stealth Rock/Spikes the opponent may also have up.

Simply put, in order for Dugtrio to come in the 2HKO Clefable it's gotta sacrifice a good deal of it's Speed or Attack EV's, which in the grand scheme of things, defeats the purpose of using Dugtrio in the first place.

Mind you Choice Scarf variants still take 73.46%-86.26% if they invest 128 EV's in Sp Def, so there goes that as well.

Aug 27th, 2007, 7:34:25 PM	#56
Chimpakt Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,296 Cole World!	Encore/Trick can also stop this, but I haven't had any experience facing this. And Stealth Rock could do lots of damage to this. __________________ My youtube channel [Pokemon Narrations, Let's Plays] VM me for OU/UU rates. wish i could change my username to chimpact :[

Aug 27th, 2007, 9:12:44 PM	#60
L E A V E1 Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 310	Question, what is your full team? __________________ FC: 1718-9727-9777 <~> No Ubers <~> Sleep Clause <~> Evasion Clause <~> Species Clause Smogon Record: 104-3

Aug 27th, 2007, 10:15:28 PM	#66
Sovereign Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 774 2008	Wow, remind me to never battle the original author of this topic. Yea that walrein is effective once you get it in on a slow poke, but that is just gay. This is no different than protect/sub zapdos from 3rd generation: it will only piss off people, and eventually you won't get any battlers because your style will be just a retarded (yet effective) one. __________________ 4/25/08: the day I became #1 on the uber ladder (yes I care too much)

Aug 27th, 2007, 10:44:10 PM	#70
Sovereign Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 774 2008	Everything has its counters. Zapdos with protect/sub combo could be broken by a faster poke, yet that wasn't banned, and the counters are situational. Nobody is going to carry a clefable or a ttar (perhaps it will be on the opponents' team by coincidence) JUST to make sure this walrein goes down. __________________ 4/25/08: the day I became #1 on the uber ladder (yes I care too much)

Aug 27th, 2007, 6:45:59 PM	#53
Dalevl Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 496	I can't help but think that Charm is a viable move for this set. Of course,you would have to drop either Substitute or Protect, unless you want to run the chance of being being Taunted away into self-denial.

Aug 27th, 2007, 7:47:38 PM	#57
Bologo Have fun with birds and bees. Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,828 Brampton, Ontario	Yeah, in particular Magic Guard Clefable could beat this easily. It can Encore any of Walrein's moves and then spam Thunderbolt which may force Walrein to switch out. Toxic Spikes will actually help Clefable because it will get Toxiced, but it won't take any damage from it. It also takes no damage from Hail so it will get Leftovers recovery. It's also immune to Stealth Rock/Spikes and will be in tip-top shape to fight Walrein off. It can also take pitiful damage from Walrein's attacks because it has no offense with the EVs you gave it. It'll just shrug off the hit and Softboiled off the damage. Even if Walrein tries to Roar out Clefable, it will get smacked by a Thunderbolt since Roar will go last. This will do a lot of damage still because you didn't give it any special defense EVs. I'm gonna go ahead and say that Rock Blast can also counter this seeing as it can bust through the sub with a Super-Effective hit and then do residual damage after it's broken the sub. This means that something like Armaldo may be able to stop it from stalling, as it can knock off the leftovers and use Rock Blast. On the plus side of this moveset though, Blizzard may be able to make up for the craptastic offenses this spread has, and stealth rock/spikes can be very deadly with this moveset. I do kinda wonder how you plan to deal with special attacks such as Leaf Storm though.

Aug 27th, 2007, 7:49:58 PM	#58
Damanzi Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 320	Awesome, I can't wait until every team is carrying a clefable to counter this.

Aug 27th, 2007, 8:26:26 PM	#59
QibingZero Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 226 Florida, unfortunately	Protect or Sub Brelooms are a serious problem for many teams, but in general Breloom doesn't have the defenses or typing to pull off a serious stall like this. I use a more defensive one from time to time (Adamant with no attack EVs still Focus Punches things into oblivion), and while it laughs at anything that can't OHKO it, and utterly destroys slower teams, it's still too frail to keep in against counters that aren't put to sleep. More on topic, this is a great thought-provoking post. I can't help but wonder how a specs Glaceon would fare on a team like this. Something like: Glaceon@Choice Specs - Blizzard - Hidden Power Fighting - Shadow Ball - Sleep Talk / Ice Beam Modest - 204hp/252spatk/52spd I know it's a more stall-ish team, but this seems impossible to resist on a hail team. Very few things would want to take a STAB Blizzard coming from that kind of SpA (Empoleon and Heatran come to mind, as well as the few Water/Ice combos, all of which are weak to HP fighting). Unlike SpecsMence, you're not taking a SpA drop by using an attack nearly as powerful, and you have hail to back you up. Some calculations: Standard Bold Blissey: 35.15% - 41.46% - That's around 1% less of it's health than the first SpecsMence Draco Meteor takes off. This also has the benefit of hail countering leftovers, and can possibly freeze. If it's willing to risk the possibility of a freeze or critical, it can try to stall with softboiled. Max SpD/HP Calm Cresselia: 44.37% - 52.03% - I don't know how many people actually run something like this (I would imagine very few, but maybe coming in on specials and putting up a reflect...), but mentioning it gives a lot of perspective. Cresselia isn't doing anything to Glaceon either way, especially not in hail. Infernape: 71.91% - 84.62% - Possible death if stealth rock is out, bad switch in even when it's not. With hail damage and likely a life orb, it's not doing much of anything. Non-bulky Lucario: 77.30% - 90.78% - Even with it's 4x stealth rock resist, it still has a very slim chance of dying after hail damage. Bulky Lucario: 53.20% - 62.50% - This is a silly situation. Even if it doesn't swords dance, you could likely stay in and KO on the next Blizzard, because Close Combat has only a 10% chance of OHKOing. Very dangerous though, because any versions in between this one and the 'normal' sweeping Lucarios will easily OHKO. Sweeping Kabutops: 81.65% - 95.88% - It's hard to even make a Kabutops to specifically counter this Glaceon, as even max attack Adamant OHKOs with stone edge only half the time, and max sp.defensive still risks a 2HKO. Weavile: 63.92% - 75.26% - Immune to hail damage, but still not good, unless there to revenge kill. Jolly CB Brick Break does 64.67% - 76.05% back to Glaceon and even Adamant CB versions only do around 70-85%. Being weak to stealth rock doesn't help either. Standard Houndoom: 65.12% - 76.41% - Obligatory weak to Stealth Rock mention. If stealth rock is not out, it survives a bit and OHKOs. Metagross: 48.90% - 57.42% - Metagross will OHKO with Meteor Mash, but 52 speed EVs is all Glaceon needs to outspeed all but Agiligross and secure the kill. Note that a weird leftovers variety Metagross has a chance of surviving. Heavy SpD Bronzong: 35.50% - 41.72% - Sleeptalk versions of this can stall somewhat (only because of the low Blizzard PP), but while gyro ball can possibly 2HKO (assuming the slowest possible Bronzong), it dies before it can get off a second. Explosion works, however. Scizor: 69.50% - 81.56% - CB/Life orb versions with Iron Head can OHKO, and will be faster. Anything else dies. Poliwrath: - Brick Break is only a 2HKO, even on the CB version. Bulky Poliwrath (252 HP) takes 46.35% - 54.43% and has a chance to survive the second hit with leftovers. Anything less than 144 EVs in HP has zero chance of surviving the second Blizzard. As far as weather changers go... Hippowdon isn't even worth mentioning, and Tyranitar takes a lot of risks switching in because it can't be sure it's faster, and you'll also be carrying HP fighting.

Aug 27th, 2007, 9:24:10 PM	#62
Chill Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,099 Falling, falling, into darkness	You did suggest pairing this with Dugtrio so if anyone is planning on encore + thunderbolt, you've got options there.

Aug 27th, 2007, 10:22:56 PM	#68
Damanzi Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 320	How many EV's into SDEF does Adamant Duggy need to survive Fable's ice-beam reliably?

Aug 27th, 2007, 10:45:29 PM	#71
Pyr0 Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,023	Actually, I like the introduction of stalling in D/P (I recently fought a stall-team and boy that thing challenged me to do my best) but this set isn't "All-mighty" first and most important, It must be hard to switch the walrus in. second, the ever-present taunt, yes I know the main Pokemon that use taunt are weak to Walrein's attacks, but you never know what other things might back it just for the sake of killing you. (some weird ass weavile comes to mind) and third, this kind of set REALLY depends on the team as a WHOLE, and well, lets just say that if given the chance, a good Mixed sweeper with a fire attack will swallow it real fast. Props to the thread maker for such a wonderful set, keep up the good job!

Aug 27th, 2007, 11:10:53 PM	#73
nomargu46 Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 954 Pyrite Town	If you want to make Walrein a complete gimmick staller, Aqua Ring can be a fun move to play around with (although i dont really reccommend it)