Smogon's First "Create a Pokemon": Poll 3

[Deucalion2]

Agreed. I'm liking Mixed Sweeper, with Bug + Ice, and Magic Guard. Plus, it would still have to be pretty damn good to escape Rock + Fire types (looking at TTar and Nape respectively), so it would be hard for it to abuse LO Guard.

[Cooper]

Automatic: Have you not noticed the huge discussion going on above your post...?

[Deucalion2]

Yes. I was commenting on it.

[DougJustDoug**]

What if the Shiver ability (automatic rapid spin) did not work when switched in against a Fire type or when Sunny Day was in effect? It strengthens the concept and limits the ability. Other abilities are affected by opposing types (e.g. Arena Trap) and weather (e.g. Chlorophyll, Swift Swim), so it's not too unorthodox within the framework of the existing game.

[gorm]

no, its still horribly broken, because you choose when to switch it in. its no like they have 6 fire types, and if they do, stealth rock is the least of your worries


whats wrong with magic guard? it bypasses sr damage right?

[Dilasc]

I still think an weakness/resistance inversion ability would be very interesting, especially if it had a second choice ability to play mindgames (at least until Stealth Rock goes up)

Let's look at its weaknesses.
4x: Fire, Rock
2x: Steel, Flying
1/2x: Ice, Ground, Grass
0x: N/A

As we can see, if we swap weaknesses with resistances, we get
1/4x: Fire, Rock
1/2x: Steel, Flying
2x: Ice, Ground, Grass

Nifty swap, even if ice and ground weakness aren't very good. Eh...

I think that the creature creation in general is focusing too much oin competitive. It's nice to be competitive, but are we going for our own new generation here?

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat Gormenghast

whats wrong with magic guard? it bypasses sr damage right?

I have no problem with Magic Guard. I think it would work very well and fits conceptually. I've been proposing alternatives simply for the sake of creativity and to explore other ways to enhance the metagame. It sounds like my Shiver idea is not very popular, so I'll let it go.

Whatever we do, the weaknesses on this thing are glaring. Because of typing, a sweeper is the only way to go. Based on voting, it looks like it will be mixed. I don't know if Magic Guard is sufficient to offset the 4x weaknesses, but it seems viable. Since there are no Fire or Rock priority moves, some speed on this thing could go a long way to offsetting the massive type deficiencies.

Originally Posted by Fat Dilasc

I think that the creature creation in general is focusing too much oin competitive. It's nice to be competitive, but are we going for our own new generation here?

Since Smogon is a competitive battling site, it seems really pointless to create an uncompetitive pokemon. IMO, we should be trying to create a VERY competitive pokemon. I'm thinking it should be viable with the top OU pokemon in the current metagame -- Garchomp, Gyarados, Salamence, etc. If this turns out to be an Illumise with Ice Beam, it will be a huge waste of Smogoners' time.

[eric the espeon]

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

An automatic rapid spin-like ability would not be broken as you suggest. It would be an ability that automatically invokes the effect of a move already in the game. This is no different than Intimidate, Sandstream, Arena Trap, Huge Power and TONS of other abilities in the game. All those abilities are basically the automatic invocation of a move -- Growl, Sandstorm, Mean Look, and Howl, respectively.

i disagree rapid spin is blockable but a auto spin ability is not, also look at the number of pokemon that use Growl, Sandstorm, Howl, and Mean Look, the first 3 are NEVER used (exept howl arcanine) and mean look is only viable on one pokemon (umbreon) but the ablitys that have the same effects are considored some of the best in the game.

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

also look at the number of pokemon that use Growl, Sandstorm, Howl, and Mean Look, the first 3 are NEVER used (exept howl arcanine) and mean look is only viable on one pokemon (umbreon) but the ablitys that have the same effects are considored some of the best in the game.

That is a very good point, and well-argued. The automatic invocation of an NU move is very different than the automatic invocation of an OU move. I'm dropping the Shiver idea, just on lack of popularity. Your well-reasoned argument makes it easier for me to forget the whole thing.

[Deucalion2]

I'm thinking a:

Type: Bug/Ice
Ability: Magic Guard
Classification: Ice Fairy Pokemon

67/125/65/125/65/108

Notable Moveset:
Bug Buzz
Ice Beam
Sleep Powder
Calm Mind
Tail Glow
Hidden Power
Signal Beam
Megahorn
Swords Dance
Ice Punch
Brick Break

Hits incredibly hard with stackloads of speed, but will get killed with ease. The moveset fits with what most people seem to be thinking of it as.

[ultimifier]

we have been talking about abililties thus far, and i think that to decentralize the metagame from TSS stall teams, this new pokemon could have snow warning as an ability and be a mixed sweeper.

this would do many things that could help make the metagame more exciting (less stall, stall is boring):
1. another hail inducer would weaken sand teams and therefore weaken every pokemon that benefits from sand, such as skarmory and hippodawn
2. ice/bug is a fairly good stall breaker type, having decent coverage against mixed walls.
3. another ice pokemon would further decrease the number of garchomp and salamences and allow other pokemon to see more play

[eric the espeon]

That is a very good point, and well-argued. The automatic invocation of an NU move is very different than the automatic invocation of an OU move. I'm dropping the Shiver idea, just on lack of popularity. Your well-reasoned argument makes it easier for me to forget the whole thing.

wow. thank you thats high prase inded

Originally Posted by Fat Deucalion2

I'm thinking a:

Type: Bug/Ice
right
Ability: Magic Guard
still not sure about this, mabe we should just acept that it will have to deal with SR, and even if we dont mabe something more like this
ability: ice shell
this pokemon is not afacted by SR spikes or toxis spikes
Classification: Ice Fairy Pokemon
this should be a vote with 4-6 options Ice Fairy should be one of them

67/125/65/125/65/108
this makes it a overall base 555 with almost ideal stat distribution with and decent movepool it would be too powerfull, infernape has 21 less in both attcks and its still one of the best OU mixed sweepers

Notable Moveset:
Bug Buzz
Ice Beam
Sleep Powder
Calm Mind
Tail Glow
Hidden Power
Signal Beam
Megahorn
Swords Dance
Ice Punch
Brick Break

urm.. sorry but this movepool is just crazy with the stats you sugested, it gives it every move it would want.

Hits incredibly hard with stackloads of speed, but will get killed with ease. The moveset fits with what most people seem to be thinking of it as.

Originally Posted by Fat ultimifier

we have been talking about abililties thus far, and i think that to decentralize the metagame from TSS stall teams, this new pokemon could have snow warning as an ability and be a mixed sweeper.

nice idea i have been haveing simeler thoughts myself, but we must be careful not to make it to powerful if it is to have any chance of being acsepted in smogon tornys

this would do many things that could help make the metagame more exciting (less stall, stall is boring):
1. another hail inducer would weaken sand teams and therefore weaken every pokemon that benefits from sand, such as skarmory and hippodawn
but it would increce the number of hail teams and with it the number of stallriens and snow cloak users

2. ice/bug is a fairly good stall breaker type, having decent coverage against mixed walls.
yes i agree

3. another ice pokemon would further decrease the number of garchomp and salamences and allow other pokemon to see more play
yes

[Gothic Togekiss]

[mini-rant]Will people please stop suggesting Megahorn on this thing when we don't know what the fuck this thing looks like yet. 99.9% say this thing isn't going to have a horn big enough for that attack to make much sense.[/mini-rant]

I actually liked "Shiver" since it fitted the whole Ice theme but I guess people get butthurted when they hear of an auto-rapid spin ability.

67/110/65/100/60/108 stat spread?

[eric the espeon]

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

[mini-rant]Will people please stop suggesting Megahorn on this thing when we don't know what the fuck this thing looks like yet. 99.9% say this thing isn't going to have a horn big enough for that attack to make much sense.[/mini-rant]

i agree totaly we defenetly should not think about the moveset till the sprite is chosen

I actually liked "Shiver" since it fitted the whole Ice theme but I guess people get butthurted when they hear of an auto-rapid spin ability.
i have a sound arguement as to why "shiver" is not a good idea

67/110/65/100/60/108 stat spread?
this sound far more reasenable than the previous stat spread but mabe on the upper limet of power, also since sp. sweeper is ahead of phy. sweeper shouldnt sp. atttck be higher than phy. attck?

[Gothic Togekiss]

Hm....you're right about a few things, how bout this?

67/102/63/112/60/108

About the same as my first stat spread but with more sp. atk. Still want it to have somewhat decent attack score. Still iffy on the stat total though.

I read you argument and I do agree on some things, I kinda hoping it have either that ability or magic guard(Artic veil?) to help it wth it's SR problem.

[DougJustDoug**]

Here's another anti-TSStall ability for discussion:

What if the pokemon eliminated Stealth Rock/Spikes/Tspikes only after a full turn of battle? Kind of like how Speed Boost doesn't kick in on the switch in. Another possibility is to eliminate weather? Maybe both? Since this thing is fragile, it would have to survive at least one turn, which isn't easy. A switch in and out would not work. Don't give it Protect, to guarantee it has to duke it out for a turn. The concept needs some refining, but I like the idea of wiping the battlefield clean upon switching out. Kind of like Natural Cure for TSS. Since I'm a ski buff, I would name the ability -- "Fresh Powder".

[eric the espeon]

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

Hm....you're right about a few things, how bout this?

67/102/63/112/60/108
thats better though how about taking 2 sp.attck (or defence) points off to get a base total of 510, this stat spread should defenetly be in the poll.

About the same as my first stat spread but with more sp. atk. Still want it to have somewhat decent attack score. Still iffy on the stat total though.
take 2 points off somewhere to give it a more even stat total

I read you argument and I do agree on some things, I kinda hoping it have either that ability or magic guard(Artic veil?) to help it wth it's SR problem.
i think that if we leave the SR weakness we will be able to give it more stats and the SR weak can be healped by a suporting team, but a ice shell would be much less broken than shiver

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

Here's another anti-TSStall ability for discussion:

What if the pokemon eliminated Stealth Rock/Spikes/Tspikes only after a full turn of battle?
why do you need to eliminate them isent just being imune to them broken eneugh?
Kind of like how Speed Boost doesn't kick in on the switch in. Another possibility is to eliminate weather? Maybe both? Since this thing is fragile, it would have to survive at least one turn, which isn't easy. A switch in and out would not work.
this would be hard to program
Don't give it Protect(every pokemon that can learn TM's can learn protect, dont try to change this), to guarantee it has to duke it out for a turn. The concept needs some refining, but I like the idea of wiping the battlefield clean upon switching out.
it seemes that everone but you have read my arguements and accepted them as sensible if you have not read them plese do so now. if you have read them plese tell me the counter arguements you use against them, or give up on this ability.
Kind of like Natural Cure for TSS. Since I'm a ski buff, I would name the ability -- "Fresh Powder".
the ability has the name shiver

[Gothic Togekiss]

^ Execpt RegiFail oh and 67/102/63/110/60/108 or 67/102/61/112/60/108, pick your poison.

[Dilasc]

My honest problem with Shiver is the name. The fact is, the name sounds like it'd limit availability. I mean, haven't the likes of Starmie, Forretres and maybe a few nonspinning Pokemon been seeming worthy of a Spin ability for a long time? The problem is that 'Shiver' doesn't fit them.

IMHO, Shiver isn't a bad name for something in Pokemon. To me, it'd be perfect as a Freeze based version of Yawn.

[ultimifier]

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

^ Execpt RegiFail oh and 67/102/63/110/60/108 or 67/102/61/112/60/108, pick your poison.

i like those stat spreads... maybe we can call it freezape :P

[eric the espeon]

^ Execpt RegiFail

RegiFail???

My honest problem with Shiver is the name (the name is of little/no importance). The fact is, the name sounds like it'd limit availability. I mean, haven't the likes of Starmie, Forretres and maybe a few nonspinning Pokemon been seeming worthy of a Spin ability for a long time (worthy of a Spin ability? i have repetedly outlined why an autospin ability would drasticly modify the metagame and make the pokemon with it the most OU pokemon since r/s tyranitar)? The problem is that 'Shiver' doesn't fit them.

IMHO, Shiver isn't a bad name for something in Pokemon. To me, it'd be perfect as a Freeze based version of Yawn.
i like the idea of something like yawn that frezes the oponent, mabe a ability that automaticly frezes the oponent if it stays in for 3 (mabe 4) turns. no. lets keep that idea for future new pokemon.

i like those stat spreads... maybe we can call it freezape :P
yes i supose it dose closely resemble 'nape mabe change the speed to make them more diferent, or mabe we should wait to see the sprite before we go into the detale of the stat distribution, we can see what it looks like and that will give us some ideas.

[DougJustDoug**]

Eric: I've read your arguments and I think they are sound. I thought the idea of "Fresh Powder" was sufficiently different from Shiver to merit discussion. If you think it's basically the same thing with more convoluted conditions, so be it. (Good point about Protect, btw)

Although I agree with your arguments against Shiver being too overpowered, I think we can do better than an ice version of Magic Guard. Maybe not. Magic Guard helps this pokemon deal with it's weakness to SR, no doubt. Is that enough to make it competitively viable? Perhaps. I think a new pokemon with a 4x weak to rock is a great opportunity to introduce something that could shift the tide against TSS. I think TSS is bad for the metagame. You may really love it, I don't know.

I'll continue to present ideas, and you are free to shoot holes in them. Hopefully, you will find me to be open-minded enough to evaluate my positions in light of opposing arguments. In the end, I don't want a broken pokemon any more than you do.

[Gothic Togekiss]

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

RegiFail???

Regigigas who I have a hard spelling, mostly have to do with the three "g"

[eric the espeon]

Eric: I've read your arguments and I think they are sound.
thank you :-)
I thought the idea of "Fresh Powder" was sufficiently different from Shiver to merit discussion.
If you think it's basically the same thing with more convoluted conditions, so be it. (Good point about Protect, btw)
it was worth a mention but it would be easy to set it up so that it worked the same way as shiver

Although I agree with your arguments against Shiver being too overpowered, I think we can do better than an ice version of Magic Guard. Maybe not. Magic Guard helps this pokemon deal with it's weakness to SR, no doubt.
i actuly think that an ability that stopes it from taking damidge from entry hazads (and leaves all other formes of damidge alone) is a better idea than an ice Magic Guard, at least its not bean done before.
Is that enough to make it competitively viable? Perhaps.
i beleve we should not be aiming to get a top class OU but a pokemon that can be powerfull when played in the right hands and with team suport (like roserade), it should not drasticly afect the metagame, or it will never bee accsepted it should be a pokemon that fits on a few teams and requires skill. if all the pokemon be make are ment to be top class then this program WILL fail.
I think a new pokemon with a 4x weak to rock is a great opportunity to introduce something that could shift the tide against TSS. I think TSS is bad for the metagame. You may really love it, I don't know.
I personly kinda like it but at the monment it is defenetly being used too much, the solution to this is not to make a single pokemon that destroys all the spikes but to use existing pokemon in new ways (like adv. boah for the stall teams that were over used then)

I'll continue to present ideas, and you are free to shoot holes in them.
the more ideas we have the more chance that some of them will be good.
Hopefully, you will find me to be open-minded enough to evaluate my positions in light of opposing arguments.
yes thank you for looking at both sides
In the end, I don't want a broken pokemon any more than you do.
Correct

right bedtime bye ppl

[MegaMewtwo]

I'm just wondering, what do you guys think of the picture I posted earlier? The only real problem I can see with it is that it was drawn by someone who saw the concept as a special sweeper. Remember, it was drawn by a ten-year-old, on Paint, on a laptop.