Smogon's First "Create a Pokemon": Poll 5, part II

[Amandabynes]

Originally Posted by Fat Ghandi1988

Name: Cuccoon
Type: Bug
Support
Power: N/A
Acc: N/A
PP: (Unsure of Roost PP)
Effect: Regains 50% of Health and removes Bug Type for turn of use.

Like an Bug type version of Roost.

I'm assuming you mean Cocoon. Anyway I like the idea, but I think the Pokemon using it should become only Bug type.

[Suburvia]

I voted for Hyra's again. I stated my reasons in the other thread, but to sum it up in one sentence:

"I see this acting just like Infernape: It's hard to get in, but once it does, it can steamroll through entire teams."

Hyra's set seems to have the most potential for this (it's much easier to take down physical walls with Ice Beam/Blizzard than it is to take down Blissey with Megahorn.) MWL's set can 2HKO Blissey with Megahorn if it runs max attack + Naughty, right? That's not so great. That's only for 104 HP Blissey's, and most run more. Plus, needing to run so much attack AND boosting nature JUST to take down Blissey seems like way too much. It means he won't be able to outspeed things that he's supposed to like Infernape, Gengar, and the 115 and 120 groups. It also means he won't be hitting as hard with his Special Attacks, despite having a higher Sp. Atk. stat. Hyra's can kill Blissey much more easily, and still eat the physical walls alive with his special attacks.

Oh, and stop acting like MWL's can take hits if it needs to. It's about as frail as Infernape, and he's not exactly known for his defensive prowess. Honestly, priority moves are about ALL it's going to be surviving. Sure, that's pretty good compared to Hyra's, but honestly. . . I see his switching out a lot more, which is NOT what you want to be doing with a 50% SR weak.

Now, I know some of you are going, "MWL's set is going to be switching out? Did you even look at Hyra's defensive spread?" Yes, I did. You don't need to switch if the enemy is dead. Guess what? That's a far more likely situation with Hyra's spread.

I just ran the calcs: Heracross (125 base attack, same as Hyra's) does 51.40% - 60.41% to a 104 HP/252DEF Bold Blissey with 252 ATK EVs and a NEUTRAL nature using Megahorn. It's not a guaranteed 2HKO, but it's still a pretty good chance, and guess what? It's a guaranteed 2HKO in Hail. This leaves him free to run a +Speed nature, giving him LOADS more potential. It requires a minimum of 216 EVs to fetch a guaranteed 2HKO in Hail (neutral nature, of course).

Please, if you don't like my argument (or, quite possibly, find something wrong with it), go ahead and argue. I'm always up for losing a debate.

Although, seeing as MWL's is winning by a mile at this point, I seriously doubt any of this means anything =[

[Gothic Togekiss]

^ Neither one can take a damn hit even at full HP and having higher attack and/or speed doesn't mean shit when you're Thunder Waved/Will-o-Wisp'd on a switch in and/or beaten to death by an attack that you're not ever weak againest but that's my opinion.

[Shelcario]

voted for the second one because it looks more even to me :)

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat TheArrow2

I voted for Hyra's again. I stated my reasons in the other thread, but to sum it up in one sentence:

"I see this acting just like Infernape: It's hard to get in, but once it does, it can steamroll through entire teams."

Hyra's set seems to have the most potential for this (it's much easier to take down physical walls with Ice Beam/Blizzard than it is to take down Blissey with Megahorn.) MWL's set can 2HKO Blissey with Megahorn if it runs max attack + Naughty, right? That's not so great. That's only for 104 HP Blissey's, and most run more. Plus, needing to run so much attack AND boosting nature JUST to take down Blissey seems like way too much. It means he won't be able to outspeed things that he's supposed to like Infernape, Gengar, and the 115 and 120 groups. It also means he won't be hitting as hard with his Special Attacks, despite having a higher Sp. Atk. stat. Hyra's can kill Blissey much more easily, and still eat the physical walls alive with his special attacks.

Oh, and stop acting like MWL's can take hits if it needs to. It's about as frail as Infernape, and he's not exactly known for his defensive prowess. Honestly, priority moves are about ALL it's going to be surviving. Sure, that's pretty good compared to Hyra's, but honestly. . . I see his switching out a lot more, which is NOT what you want to be doing with a 50% SR weak.

Now, I know some of you are going, "MWL's set is going to be switching out? Did you even look at Hyra's defensive spread?" Yes, I did. You don't need to switch if the enemy is dead. Guess what? That's a far more likely situation with Hyra's spread.

I just ran the calcs: Heracross (125 base attack, same as Hyra's) does 51.40% - 60.41% to a 104 HP/252DEF Bold Blissey with 252 ATK EVs and a NEUTRAL nature using Megahorn. It's not a guaranteed 2HKO, but it's still a pretty good chance, and guess what? It's a guaranteed 2HKO in Hail. This leaves him free to run a +Speed nature, giving him LOADS more potential. It requires a minimum of 216 EVs to fetch a guaranteed 2HKO in Hail (neutral nature, of course).

Please, if you don't like my argument (or, quite possibly, find something wrong with it), go ahead and argue. I'm always up for losing a debate.

Although, seeing as MWL's is winning by a mile at this point, I seriously doubt any of this means anything =[

The reason we care about defenses is that Hyra's spread is so poor defensively that every popular Steel wall can OHKO it without residual damage.

Meaning that if this gets a perfect, damage free switchin and doesn't get poisoned/paralyzed/burned, it has a 0% chance of winning any encounter with any steel wall.

Lets say that we max attack on this and give it enough speed to beat Jolly Duggy with a -Sdef nature:

Stats:

HP: 235
Attack: 349
Defense: 186
Special Attack: 253
Special Defense: 153
Speed: 373

Now before we begin, are you noticing a problem in particular. If you aren't, notice your SA is hanging just above 253. You won't be OHKOing Steel walls with this, even the nuetral ones, any time soon.

Here are Calcs for Megahorn + Blizzard with Life Orb on the most common Steel walls:

Skarmory:

M-Horn. Blizz.
36-42 242-285

Min: 278
Max: 327

Skarm HP: 334.

Steelix:

M-Horn. Blizz.

62-73 214-251

Min: 276
Max: 324

Steelix HP: 354

Max HP 300 Def Bronzong (2 M-Horns)

151-178 each.

Min: 302
Max: 356

Bronzong HP: 338

Here's the tricky part though, Bronzong recovers 21 HP with Lefties, meaning it actually survives 2 max damage Megahorns with about 3 HP to spare.

Which means, even assuming both attacks hit at maximum damage, Skarm and Steelix survive. I didn't even take into account Leftovers here, Stealth Rock doesn't matter in either case, and if you managed to set up Spikes on 'Lix, chances are it used Stealth Rock in the process.

Now the killer:

Skarm Brave Bird (176 Atk)

247-290 Damage (105-123%)

Steelix Gyro Ball (236 Attack, 150 BP based on speed)

411-418 Damage (174-205%)

Bronzong's numbers are similar, as are Forrys.

Now, MwL's spread probably isn't going to eat Gyro Ball's either, but based on MwL's numbers:

Skarm Brave Bird (176 Attack):

260-306 Damage (92.53%-108.9%)

What this means is that with some EV investment in defense or HP, Hyra's variant could actually take a Brave Bird and launch a second attack. It couldn't with LO but if it had Specs it wouldn't be a problem.

Defenses DO matter for a mixed sweeper when it means the difference between getting OHKO'd by the walls it is supposedly designed to break.

One last note: Same EV spread on MwL's (beats Dugtrio, Maxes Attack, +Speed -SD) with LO.

Skarmory:

M-Horn. Blizz.
33-39 256-301

Min: 289
Max: 340

Steelix:
M-Horn. Blizz.
56-68 225-265

Mix: 281
Max: 333

Steelix Max HP: 354

The moral of the story kiddies is that Steelix is a fat POS.

[Cooper]

I honestly think there should be no new moves its created, no non-legendary has his own unique move, save for vespiqueen, whose moves aren't even unique, and pikachu (I think its the only one?).

That's only in the 4th generation. There were quite a few in 3rd, most notably Sceptile's Leaf Blade, Pichu's Volt Tackle, Lugia's Aeroblast (like anyone used it anyway), and Ho-oh's Sacred Fire. So it's entirely feasible this pokemon could have it's own move.

[EconBiscuit]

Castform's WeatherBall Anyone?

[Goodbar]

People quit suggesting "roost" moves, none make sense lol. When you roost, you go to the ground, hence your not flying anymore...a bug will always be a bug and ice...would have to melt to water? dunno just sorta ramblin' here

[EconBiscuit]

Actually in that very sense, then coccoon would work, While you can't turn into something stronger, a bug would still regenerate inside

[junior]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr_Goodbar4321

People quit suggesting "roost" moves, none make sense lol. When you roost, you go to the ground, hence your not flying anymore...a bug will always be a bug and ice...would have to melt to water? dunno just sorta ramblin' here

Scizor can roost.

[I am Gengar]

Originally Posted by Fat Junior

Scizor can roost.

But he doesn't change type in the process, so it really doesn't matter.
Neither bugs nor ice can mysteriously disappear, whereas flying types can land on the ground and stop flying for a while.

[SirRaven]

I like Hyra's moveset, just for the fact that it sacrifices a little bit of SpAtk for some added defense and attack.

Loving this idea guys, keep up the good work!

[eric the espeon]

That's only in the 4th generation. There were quite a few in 3rd, most notably Sceptile's Leaf Blade (leafeon and gladale learn this), Pichu's Volt Tackle (he said this), Lugia's Aeroblast (legindry) (like anyone used it anyway), and Ho-oh's Sacred Fire (legindry). So it's entirely feasible this pokemon could have it's own move.
i dissagree, its unecisery and pointless to try to jive it a new move. it will lead to a stupid move, or a clone of one that exists already.

Castform's WeatherBall Anyone?
what about roserade?

[Gothic Togekiss]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr_Goodbar4321

When you roost, you go to the ground, hence your not flying anymore.

Why haven't this logic been apply onto Flygon since it can Roost as well and it still immune to ground attacks.

[eric the espeon]

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

Why haven't this logic been apply onto Flygon since it can Roost as well and it still immune to ground attacks.

the code for roost removes the flying type but does not efect abilitys, its kinda stupid though.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by Fat Ghandi1988

Yes I know it's not create a move, but blame Gothic Togekiss. Anyways 555 set ftw

Name: Cuccoon
Type: Bug
Support
Power: N/A
Acc: N/A
PP: (Unsure of Roost PP)
Effect: Regains 50% of Health and removes Bug Type for turn of use.

Like an Bug type version of Roost.

Removes it? If anything I think that should remove the OTHER type, so it's just pure bug. Then it stands a chance against something like Hera not running aerial ace or stone edge due to fighting resist. And steel, but like anyone uses that.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fat ^^

Hera not running aerial ace or stone edge

Uh nvmlol

[CZ]

How about existing moves?

Megahorn
Bug Buzz
Ice Shard/Ice Punch
Ice Bean/Blizzard
With MwL's spread? Looks sweeter than DM's Avitar. Why the hell is everyone making up moves for this thing.

[Hyra]

lol, Ice Bean.

Anyways, ideal move pool for this would include Megahorn, Special Ice Moves, Earthquake or Earthpower, and then an electric move. With Compound Eyes, Blizzard and Thunder become viable options, but I cna see MwL's spread using a Stealth Rock reducing ability too. Hm... Maybe I should vote Magic Guard to spite those in favor of Balance.

[Suburvia]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

The reason we care about defenses is that Hyra's spread is so poor defensively that every popular Steel wall can OHKO it without residual damage.

Meaning that if this gets a perfect, damage free switchin and doesn't get poisoned/paralyzed/burned, it has a 0% chance of winning any encounter with any steel wall.

*Insert long post here*


The moral of the story kiddies is that Steelix is a fat POS.

What I gather from your calcs is that with some defense EVs, MWL's set can survive a BB from Skarm. That's one attack on one wall that you should be KO'ing before it hurts you regardless. Just predict the switchin. Now, MWL's can come in on Spikes/Roost, and 2HKO while it tries to BB you. You survive and KO it, but you're left with, what, 10% or so health. Hello Life Orb (which you shouldn't be using if you run the defense EVs, taking away from his offensive prowess.) And I'm sorry, but there is a pretty good chance that it's coming in to residual damage; If I were to use this Pokemon with MWL's spread, I wouldn't give it the EVs to survive BB considering that it takes away from his attacking potential and he probably won't survive it anyways due to residual damage.

I never said once in my post that you'd be OHKOing the Steel walls. That's not the point. You're supposed to predict the Steel wall switchin and 2HKO them. Both spreads can do this, but neither is likely to survive any attacks from them (EXCEPT BB on Skarm with MWL's spread and some Defense EVs, but survival isn't altogether guaranteed just because of the EVs).

Also, I find the format your calcs are in hard to read, but that's just me. From the damage calcs you ran on MWL's set attacking the steel walls, he isn't OHKOing any of them except for Skarmory a very small amount of the time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find that format difficult to decipher o.O

Skarmory:

M-Horn. Blizz.
33-39 256-301

Min: 289
Max: 340

Steelix:
M-Horn. Blizz.
56-68 225-265

Mix: 281
Max: 333

Steelix Max HP: 354

So, would these mean that the max Blizzard can do against Skarmory is 340, while its max HP is 334? And that Blizzard will do a max of 333 on Steelix while his max HP is 354? That doesn't sound all that great, considering he's 2HKOing them just the same as Hyra's spread almost all the time.

They're both crippled by Status, you can't use that as an argument against just Hyra's (this also applies to Gothic Togekiss). On this note, Blissey can easily T-Wave either one if it comes in on a Special Attack as Megahorn fails to KO it, which sucks.

Now, go ahead and pick holes in my argument =] I'm not very good at this yet =P