(Gen 1) Monotype RBY - Page 2

Mr.E · Feb 11th, 2013, 2:22:36 AM

What's buggy about Wrap moves in RBY? Well they do have bugs but there's nothing wrong with their primary intention of preventing the opponent from reacting. It's been argued to death by now anyway but statistics suggest AgiliWrap Dragonite is the only trapper with any serious potential for damage but since literally everything viable in RBY has a status move or Body Slam, except Cloyster who OHKOs with STAB Ice anyway, setting up unimpeded is not particularly easy. Then even if you do, you're still countered by Gengar and sometimes lose to your own inaccuracy.

Not only do Normal and Psychic have the most OU mons (Water ties with Normal), and the better ones at that, they also have some of the best UU mons: Clefable, Dodrio, Hypno. No point rehashing what everyone already knows, though. Pretty confident in saying that Psychic is plainly better than Normal as well, as Psychic is basically guaranteed victory against the other 13 types where Normal can be contented with by a number of them, but Normal has no bad matchups and is the only thing that can throw down with Psychic directly.

Flying is probably a surprisingly close third place, though. Of the remaining types, only Electric has any real shot at beating them. Even so, they share their best mon and it's hardly a guarantee. Rock's swept by Gyarados or Dragonite, Ground's swept by Gyarados or Articuno, Zapdos-Moltres destroy everything else between them. They might even be able to compete with Normal in a battle between the two, as Chansey doesn't wall most flyers and they have the raw stats to go toe-to-toe with Tauros without losing half their team.

Even assuming Electric beats Flying directly, Electric itself auto-loses to Ground and Poison. Poison auto-loses to Flying, Ice, probably can't beat Fire either due to Tentacruel getting overpressured. Poison obviously gets completely destroyed by Psychic but both types are otherwise disadvantaged against Normal/Psychic. Water and Ice are the best of what remains and the latter doesn't even have six pokemon (even counting NFEs).

Borat · Feb 11th, 2013, 2:58:38 AM

I agree [for once]. Apart from the pp glitch (which still can't really be considered a glitch as much as it is a limitation, sans 255 HP recovers and .4% misses), just because the move behaves different from newer gens doesn't mean it's "bugged". Substitute isn't bugged, leech seed isn't bugged, Sleep talk in gsc isn't "bugged", special stat isn't bugged. It's the game, play it.

Nyara · Feb 11th, 2013, 7:02:28 AM

They are bugged and glitched, at least a great part of them (Wrap, Substitute, Leech Seed, 255 HP recover) as they were fixed on Stadium, and they are glitched, just like Psychic being inmune to Ghost and stuff, those are mere bugs and that's a well known as it's not too hard to look at the code and look the mess up on those things, anyway. Now, the metagame for legacy reasons is played without the Stadium bugfixes (but at the same time, more than the 40% of the original bugs of the games are not implemented on simulators for actually mere lazziness, and even some moves are not exactly working as they do on the link-battles), so, what bugs applies and allow is up to somewhat random and subjetive reasons.

So, the argument of "it's on the game, that should stay" doesn't applies at all, if someone really belive that, play without "clauses" and/or with a Link Cable on front of your opponent (that's the unique truly way to play 100% accurate RBY). Some people consider Wrap being broken or not-funny-because-it's-even-more-luck-needed-than-OHKO-moves, thus, they ban it.

.4% misses are not a bug or glitch of any kind. Critical Hit rate based on speed is not a glitch of any kind, but Focus Energy not increasing the Critical Hit rate is. The Special Stat is not a bug or glitch. GSC's Sleep Talk is not bugged or glitched, they programed it in that way, with that intention.

Borat · Feb 11th, 2013, 7:18:21 AM

You can take your link cable argument elsewhere. The argument stands. It's the game. If RBY were a person, he'd be in college. Shit's old. It's not going to change, greater minds have tried.

Dre89 · Feb 11th, 2013, 8:38:46 PM

Nyara- The difference between species clause and say, wrap, is that species clause can be implemented without changing any of the core mechanics of the game.

The only clauses which alter the game mechanically are the sleep and freeze clauses, which are Stadium mechanics. Considering all other mechanics we use are cartridge, we play neither the cartridge or Stadium meta, but rather just an arbitrary one that never existed in the games.

Also, you'll find that people are incredibly resistant to change here. Tradition is the main argument used against change. Apart from the fact that they sound like grandparents, like 90% of the playerbase from the 'old days' probably don't play anymore so I don't see what the problem is with the newer generation pushing for changes.

magic9mushroom · Feb 12th, 2013, 8:55:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Nyara

They are bugged and glitched, at least a great part of them (Wrap, Substitute, Leech Seed, 255 HP recover) as they were fixed on Stadium, and they are glitched, just like Psychic being inmune to Ghost and stuff, those are mere bugs and that's a well known as it's not too hard to look at the code and look the mess up on those things, anyway.

The disabling effect of Wrap was in Stadium. You could select a move, unlike in RBY proper, but you'd get told "X can't move!".

The PP rollover is bugged, and the free switchout is kinda bugged, but the basic core of what Wrap does (if you're faster, they don't get to move) isn't.

Borat · Feb 12th, 2013, 3:49:56 PM

No way is free switch out a bug.

And if we're consider all 255 things bugs (which is reasonable given the 8-bit thing), then 99.6 is clearly a bug.

Nyara · Feb 13th, 2013, 6:10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

No way is free switch out a bug.

And if we're consider all 255 things bugs (which is reasonable given the 8-bit thing), then 99.6 is clearly a bug.

I loled. That is not a bug for the mere reason they planned the battle system in that way, because they were limited on size and stuff, but what respect to some bugs related to the moves, they are actually bugs, as the moves are not working as they were intended, and we know that thanks to the people who checked the code and for the Stadium bugfixes (for example, Recover was an easy bug to fix, as they all needed to do were actually change the failure condition to absolute 0, and they just din't did that on the original versions by mere mistake).

magic9mushroom · Feb 13th, 2013, 6:42:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

No way is free switch out a bug.

Then why doesn't it work against the AI?

Borat · Feb 13th, 2013, 10:33:09 AM

Because the AI can also use multiple potions in a turn. Because the AI also has a level 50 or some shit dragonite. Why is this relevant?

Stadium had also implemented 100% accuracy.

Jorgen · Feb 13th, 2013, 12:38:31 PM

Mimic has different in-game mechanics. Otherwise-100% moves like Growl and Tail Whip fail wayyyy more often than 1/256. You even see the latter difference between link battle and in-game battle in GSC.

Point is, in-game mechanics are slightly different from the mechanics used in a link battle, and seem to be intentionally so.

Dre89 · Feb 13th, 2013, 3:27:58 PM

I thought with mimic you could choose the move you learned in-game, but couldn't in link battles. If that's correct then the mechanics are the same as the game, as competitive RBY would be the equivalent of a link battle.

Nyara · Feb 13th, 2013, 3:28:34 PM

Like the badges boosters that only affects in-game and outside of link battles.

Feb 11th, 2013, 2:22:36 AM	#26
Mr.E im the best Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,742	What's buggy about Wrap moves in RBY? Well they do have bugs but there's nothing wrong with their primary intention of preventing the opponent from reacting. It's been argued to death by now anyway but statistics suggest AgiliWrap Dragonite is the only trapper with any serious potential for damage but since literally everything viable in RBY has a status move or Body Slam, except Cloyster who OHKOs with STAB Ice anyway, setting up unimpeded is not particularly easy. Then even if you do, you're still countered by Gengar and sometimes lose to your own inaccuracy. Not only do Normal and Psychic have the most OU mons (Water ties with Normal), and the better ones at that, they also have some of the best UU mons: Clefable, Dodrio, Hypno. No point rehashing what everyone already knows, though. Pretty confident in saying that Psychic is plainly better than Normal as well, as Psychic is basically guaranteed victory against the other 13 types where Normal can be contented with by a number of them, but Normal has no bad matchups and is the only thing that can throw down with Psychic directly. Flying is probably a surprisingly close third place, though. Of the remaining types, only Electric has any real shot at beating them. Even so, they share their best mon and it's hardly a guarantee. Rock's swept by Gyarados or Dragonite, Ground's swept by Gyarados or Articuno, Zapdos-Moltres destroy everything else between them. They might even be able to compete with Normal in a battle between the two, as Chansey doesn't wall most flyers and they have the raw stats to go toe-to-toe with Tauros without losing half their team. Even assuming Electric beats Flying directly, Electric itself auto-loses to Ground and Poison. Poison auto-loses to Flying, Ice, probably can't beat Fire either due to Tentacruel getting overpressured. Poison obviously gets completely destroyed by Psychic but both types are otherwise disadvantaged against Normal/Psychic. Water and Ice are the best of what remains and the latter doesn't even have six pokemon (even counting NFEs). __________________ FREE AND the Jump non ice beam cleric blissey

Feb 11th, 2013, 7:02:28 AM	#28
Nyara Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 288 Chile > Santiago	They are bugged and glitched, at least a great part of them (Wrap, Substitute, Leech Seed, 255 HP recover) as they were fixed on Stadium, and they are glitched, just like Psychic being inmune to Ghost and stuff, those are mere bugs and that's a well known as it's not too hard to look at the code and look the mess up on those things, anyway. Now, the metagame for legacy reasons is played without the Stadium bugfixes (but at the same time, more than the 40% of the original bugs of the games are not implemented on simulators for actually mere lazziness, and even some moves are not exactly working as they do on the link-battles), so, what bugs applies and allow is up to somewhat random and subjetive reasons. So, the argument of "it's on the game, that should stay" doesn't applies at all, if someone really belive that, play without "clauses" and/or with a Link Cable on front of your opponent (that's the unique truly way to play 100% accurate RBY). Some people consider Wrap being broken or not-funny-because-it's-even-more-luck-needed-than-OHKO-moves, thus, they ban it. .4% misses are not a bug or glitch of any kind. Critical Hit rate based on speed is not a glitch of any kind, but Focus Energy not increasing the Critical Hit rate is. The Special Stat is not a bug or glitch. GSC's Sleep Talk is not bugged or glitched, they programed it in that way, with that intention. __________________ I love Caterpie, he's a so adorable little bug! ♥ (Also, sorry for my English, I'm still learning it and I'm not a native speaker).

Feb 13th, 2013, 3:28:34 PM	#38
Nyara Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 288 Chile > Santiago	Like the badges boosters that only affects in-game and outside of link battles. __________________ I love Caterpie, he's a so adorable little bug! ♥ (Also, sorry for my English, I'm still learning it and I'm not a native speaker).

Feb 11th, 2013, 2:58:38 AM	#27
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	I agree [for once]. Apart from the pp glitch (which still can't really be considered a glitch as much as it is a limitation, sans 255 HP recovers and .4% misses), just because the move behaves different from newer gens doesn't mean it's "bugged". Substitute isn't bugged, leech seed isn't bugged, Sleep talk in gsc isn't "bugged", special stat isn't bugged. It's the game, play it.

Feb 11th, 2013, 7:18:21 AM	#29
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	You can take your link cable argument elsewhere. The argument stands. It's the game. If RBY were a person, he'd be in college. Shit's old. It's not going to change, greater minds have tried.

Feb 11th, 2013, 8:38:46 PM	#30
Dre89 Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 233	Nyara- The difference between species clause and say, wrap, is that species clause can be implemented without changing any of the core mechanics of the game. The only clauses which alter the game mechanically are the sleep and freeze clauses, which are Stadium mechanics. Considering all other mechanics we use are cartridge, we play neither the cartridge or Stadium meta, but rather just an arbitrary one that never existed in the games. Also, you'll find that people are incredibly resistant to change here. Tradition is the main argument used against change. Apart from the fact that they sound like grandparents, like 90% of the playerbase from the 'old days' probably don't play anymore so I don't see what the problem is with the newer generation pushing for changes.

Feb 12th, 2013, 3:49:56 PM	#32
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	No way is free switch out a bug. And if we're consider all 255 things bugs (which is reasonable given the 8-bit thing), then 99.6 is clearly a bug.

Feb 13th, 2013, 10:33:09 AM	#35
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	Because the AI can also use multiple potions in a turn. Because the AI also has a level 50 or some shit dragonite. Why is this relevant? Stadium had also implemented 100% accuracy.

Feb 13th, 2013, 12:38:31 PM	#36
Jorgen Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 712	Mimic has different in-game mechanics. Otherwise-100% moves like Growl and Tail Whip fail wayyyy more often than 1/256. You even see the latter difference between link battle and in-game battle in GSC. Point is, in-game mechanics are slightly different from the mechanics used in a link battle, and seem to be intentionally so.

Feb 13th, 2013, 3:27:58 PM	#37
Dre89 Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 233	I thought with mimic you could choose the move you learned in-game, but couldn't in link battles. If that's correct then the mechanics are the same as the game, as competitive RBY would be the equivalent of a link battle.