The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[PTJon7]

Missed one:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 177-211 (58.22 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I honestly think this is only proving the point for Sableye for B-Rank, even with full investment it's 2HKOd by the most common special attackers of the tier. Any physical attacker would just run through it without and physical investment (obviously not counting W-o-W).

Pretty much any well built team will not have problems with Sableye, mine sure don't. Whether it be a physical attacker with a Lum Berry (or Shed Skin), a Fire type, or a special attacker Sableye can easily be dealt with the majority of the time.

Its not like Sableye is bad, its just not A-Rank worthy.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah, while Sableye can be a bitch to face at times, he is relatively easy to deal with. Roserade+Darmanitan cores in particular demolish Sableye for days, since his Will-O-Wisp is relatively useless against the core due to the former's Natural Cure and the latter being immune. Sableye is also pretty frail on the special side, as said before, meaning he can be dealt with with reasonably strong moves. Taunt+DD Scrafty with Shed Skin also could shit on Sableye, while Fire-types don't mind Sableye much at all. Don't get me wrong, Sableye is a great Pokemon that can annoy opponents with Taunt, burn, and recovery, which makes him Top B-Rank at least, but he's not worthy of being A-Rank atm.

Also those calc prove that Sableye is still a B-Rank Pokemon imo, agreeing with PTJon here.

[Kitten Milk]

Not trying to belabour my point but I'll just have my final say and then leave the topic be ^.^

I'm not trying to say that Sableye walls the entire tier, I'm merely pointing out that with Hazard support he can effectively check/wear down the pokemon that you initially pointed out as being counters to Sableye. Everything in A and S Rank have a weakness, and I don't think "Togekiss can't be considered as a good physical wall because it can't take a SE" or whatever is a viable argument to saying it isn't a good poke.

I guess I should have gone about it differently and shown all the pokes that Sableye absolutely demolishes, but it's sort of harder to calc all that. I just think that something that can be absolutely game-central against stall and still a very useful utility/crippler poke against HO should be considered for A-rank.

As I said, I won't keep arguing my point because either I'm absolutely crazy or you guys are (and given that there are a lot more of you than there are of me, I imagine the former is the more likely), and I've argued my case as much as I can :P

[Ernesto]

Js that if you really wanna use SpD Sableye to deal with the big guns, you could technically run Snarl on it (I don't think I'd be willing to replace Foul Play, but it's still an option)... That said, I think B-rank is where it belongs, but it does have good things going for it to try to put it in A-rank.

[DoABarrelRoll]

1) Sorry but I don't think Togekiss should be S-rank. It's one of the pokemon that sounds amazing on paper but it's not as good in practice. There are too many things that stop it, like Band/Scarf Heracross locked into Stone Edge, Rhyperior, Mienshao with Stone Edge, Snorlax, Weavile, Zapdos, Victini with Bolt Strike, etc etc etc. The Nasty Plot set can be good but it's a bit too slow especially when it's also weak to stealth rock. I think Togekiss should be A rank.

2) I'm nominating Eelektross for C- or maybe D-rank. This thing is slow, but I think it's a bit underrated. Base 115 Attack and 105 Special Attack is actually good in UU, especially when backed by decent bulk and Levitate. It's amazing in trick room, too.

3) Druddigon is imo an A-rank Pokemon. It has the strongest Outrage in the tier, especially when steels are nowhere near as common in UU as they are in OU(though you could argue bronzong). It also has Sucker Punch as a priority move, and remember Sucker Punch from druddigon hits harder than ExtremeSpeed from lucario. It also has Earthquake and Superpower as great coverage moves, as well as the ability to set up stealth rock and paralyze its opponents. Here's a set that can do wonders in uu.
Druddigon @ Leftovers
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 100 Spe
Trait: Mold Breaker
Adamant Nature(+Atk, -SpA)
- Stealth Rock
- Outrage
- Earthquake / Superpower
- Sucker Punch / Glare

4) Also, if E-rank exists, I'd like to nominate electivire for this rank. It's a pokemon for noobs, really. The mixed set can be okay but I think you all know the reason why electivire sucks. I also think Riolu should be E-rank.

[Kitten Milk]

I really have to disagree with you on Druddigon. You make it sound as if Bronzong is the only thing in the entire tier that can take an outrage, but in reality...

Bronzong - Empoleon - Rhyperior - Gligar - Ferroseed - Bisharp - Cobalion - Registeel - Cresselia - Dusclops - Defensive Arcanine - P2 - Esca - CroCune - Hitmontop - Slowbro - Cofag - Qwilfish.....

It also just doesn't have the speed to be too much of an offensive threat, as it can be outsped by almost any other strong attacker and just killed off.

I'm not saying it's an awful poke or anything, but the fact that it's used so little and it's one of the only three viable dragons in the entire tier tells you something. It's just not quite good enough to overshadow things like Flygon, who have similar attacking stats, better offensive typing, and a much higher speed, making sweeps actually possible.

That said, I think its utility as a parashuffler as well as its arguable viability as an all-out attacker or a banded poke places it firmly in the category of B-Rank.

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Originally Posted by Fat DoABarrelRoll

1) Sorry but I don't think Togekiss should be S-rank. It's one of the pokemon that sounds amazing on paper but it's not as good in practice. There are too many things that stop it, like Band/Scarf Heracross locked into Stone Edge, Rhyperior, Mienshao with Stone Edge, Snorlax, Weavile, Zapdos, Victini with Bolt Strike, etc etc etc. The Nasty Plot set can be good but it's a bit too slow especially when it's also weak to stealth rock. I think Togekiss should be A rank.

The thing is, Togekiss has the utility to run a cubic crapton of sets which can get kills off surprise factor alone sometimes, and if it sets up on the right Pokemon, some switches (that would in theory be predictable, some of which you named) might not enjoy taking a Thunder wave. Weavile hates Thunder Wave, would probably die to Air Slash (or anything semblant of a stiff breeze), easily is OHKO'd by Aura Sphere. Zapdos hard counters Togekiss but it just will not enjoy being paralyzed, if it comes in on T-Wave. Some Togekiss can afford to put Grass Knot on their sets, specifically for dealing with Rhyperior. Snorlax is probably the best way to shut it down but if it's been softened up, a +2 Aura Sphere will hurt, and Air Slash can flinch it till it's dead possibly. I could go on forever but basically I'm saying Togekiss has the utility to be a potent threat to any team, and is capable of getting past some of its counters with the right move(s).

Originally Posted by Fat DoABarrelRoll

2) I'm nominating Eelektross for C- or maybe D-rank. This thing is slow, but I think it's a bit underrated. Base 115 Attack and 105 Special Attack is actually good in UU, especially when backed by decent bulk and Levitate. It's amazing in trick room, too.

Eelektross is cool, and I actually do like it a lot (Though I haven't really had much thought of testing it in UU), but what else does it do in UU? Any specific niches of any sort other than being a threat in Trick Room? Cause if it's just that, then we may as well nominate Rampardos for C-Rank off its stats and usability on TR teams alone.

Originally Posted by Fat DoABarrelRoll

4) Also, if E-rank exists, I'd like to nominate electivire for this rank. It's a pokemon for noobs, really. The mixed set can be okay but I think you all know the reason why electivire sucks. I also think Riolu should be E-rank.

I don't get it...This kind of goes back to one of the numerous arguments a few pages back on how we shouldn't throw ANY Pokemon in E-Rank simply because it's nonviable, because otherwise you could literally dump huge amounts of the lower tiers into it. E-Rank is simply an indicator that the Pokemon itself is pretty bad in this tier and it's preferred you not use it. Like for instance, I'm not going to nominate Golduck for E-Rank simply because it's fully outclassed in UU and has no niche...That's quite obvious and doesn't need to be listed for you to realize that. Dusclops is listed because it's actually in this metagame and has a notable amount of usage, but all its shortcomings leave so much to be desired.

While you could say that Electivire has no specific purpose other than for (attempting) a wallbreak while being stopped short by most defensive pokes (lol Porygon2 walks all over this thing), you took the high road and just said it's "A Pokemon for noobs" and we "all know the reason why it sucks". If that's the case, then why take the time to have it put into E-Rank? Lol.

Riolu however I guess I can understand, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned on any previous pages but it does have a (cheap, honorless, gimmicky) niche of being a speed shuffler, and able to do something no other Pokemon in the entire metagame can do at the same level. So unless someone's already dropped the verdict on that I agree with Riolu for E-Rank.

[Punchshroom]

I actually kind of disagree with Riolu for E-Rank, due to the greater ease of hazard-stacking in UU than in lower tiers due to very competent Spikers and fast Stealth Rock users like Cobalion. The premier spinblockers of the tier, Cofagrigus or Sableye, are also viable in their own right as they aren't just relegated to spinblocking either. Add to the fact that there is very little priority to be seen in UU since Extreemespeed Togekiss and Aqua Jet Sharpedo are rare while Azumarill is slower than Riolu, leaving things like Ice Shard Weavile, Sucker Punch Honchkrow/Bisharp or Protect users like Umbreon or Yanmega as your only likely stops against it.

However, what UU lacks in priority distribution, it packs some of the hardest hitters ever witnessed which easily smash Riolu in most cases (save for something like Scarf Cross Megahorn); interfering abilities from Xatu and Tornadus, which are more common in UU than in lower tiers, also shut Riolu down, completely in Xatu's case. The fact that it can do some work against a serious UU team if given the proper support shouldn't be entirely dismissed however, thus I nominate Riolu for D-Rank.

[PTJon7]

If your team lacks priority, Protect, Magic Coat/Bounce, or Prankster Taunt Riolu can shuffle it for days. There's still the question of Riolu staying alive however, as it must rely on a Focus Sash to get it's first Roar in. D-Rank for sure.

Eelektross and Electrivire have no niche in UU, there honestly is no point in including them in the rankings. Unless you can give a real case for something in the low tiers to get added then there really isn't any reason to bring them up.

[Warb]

I remember kokoloko bringing up an Eelektross set in the past as a kind of countermeasure to offensive Zapdos and SubCM Raikou. I forgot what set it was though.

[PTJon7]

I'm gonna propose Amoonguss for B-Rank for 3 reasons:

1. Spore is an obvious one. Thanks to the new sleep mechanics of Gen V, putting something to sleep can often equate to killing it since it must stay in for multiple turns in a row to wake up. Spore's perfect accuracy makes anything with access to it have a significant advantage over pokemon that rely on things like Sleep Powder.
   
2. Secondly is Amoonguss' amazing ability Regenerator. We all know how great Slowbro is, and a large part of why its so good is because it can heal itself just by switching out. Amoonguss' synergy with Slowbro is in fact fantastic, as they cover literally all of each other's weaknesses.
   
3. Finally is Amoonguss' bulk and typing. Grass/Poison makes Amoonguss a great switch in to both Fighting and Water types. Amoonguss has well rounded defensive stats, meaning it can run viable Physical and Special walls. Amoonguss is also a good member of bulky offensive teams, thanks to it's decent special attack and good dual STAB attacks.

[Kitten Milk]

In response to the Amoonguss proposal -

1. Spore isn't as good in UU as you'd think, mainly because there's just so many things to absorb it. Between SleepTalk Snorlax, SleepTalk guts hera, Shed Skin Scrafty, Xatu, SleepTalk Cune, Sleep Talk Stoise/Steel/etc etc etc, as well as the abundant supply of Natural Cure pokes (Shaymin, Roserade, Roselia). The relative commonness of heal bellers also makes sleep slightly less dangerous than it would seem. My main objection with Amoonguss is that it just can't do much outside of statusing. Sure, it can run a dualspore set and spread some paralysis as well, but it's pretty easy to work around still.
2. Addressing Amoongbro in general, they actually don't cover Slowbro's bug weakness technically ;) On a more serious note, though, Amoongbro has sort of lost its novelty and quite a lot of its effectiveness. It's sort of stomped on by volt turn teams, special victini, shaymin, and a bunch of other common threats.

Most importantly, though, is that when all of this is combined together, Amoonguss can be a useful utility poke, but is honestly outclassed in almost every way by Roserade. Arguably, Roserade is even a better partner to Slowbro because of its SpD bulk, letting it tank the things that Amoonguss just can't. Although it does lack the perfect accuracy sleep move, it has far greater utility, having access to not only an immensely superior SpA stat but also usability as a spiker or even a dualspiker.

Finally, Amoonguss is just sort of predictable. Unlike Roserade, who can and does run viable defensive and offensive sets, LO Amoonguss is a cheap gimmick at best and doesn't utilize its potential to be a decent defensive poke.

I know I just spent three paragraphs saying how bad Amoonguss is, but I actually am going to agree with PTJon7 here and nominate it for B-rank. Despite its flaws, it's important to recognize that it does fit a niche as the only viable sporer in the tier, and even though it is outclassed by Roserade, dedicated stall teams will appreciate its somewhat mixed bulk and regenerator ability. That said, it should be thought of as a low B-rank because of the flaws listed above.

[Trainer Au]

Originally Posted by Fat PTJon7

I'm gonna propose Amoonguss for B-Rank for 3 reasons:

1. Spore is an obvious one. Thanks to the new sleep mechanics of Gen V, putting something to sleep can often equate to killing it since it must stay in for multiple turns in a row to wake up. Spore's perfect accuracy makes anything with access to it have a significant advantage over pokemon that rely on things like Sleep Powder.
   
2. Secondly is Amoonguss' amazing ability Regenerator. We all know how great Slowbro is, and a large part of why its so good is because it can heal itself just by switching out. Amoonguss' synergy with Slowbro is in fact fantastic, as they cover literally all of each other's weaknesses.
   
3. Finally is Amoonguss' bulk and typing. Grass/Poison makes Amoonguss a great switch in to both Fighting and Water types. Amoonguss has well rounded defensive stats, meaning it can run viable Physical and Special walls. Amoonguss is also a good member of bulky offensive teams, thanks to it's decent special attack and good dual STAB attacks.

Supporting this, it can also run a specs set which is actually pretty decent. May seem outclassed by Roserade but it is bulkier and has Regenerator.

Eelektross has decent bulk, no weaknesses, good attacking stats, and a very good movepool, it can also run superpower to beat Umbreon and Snorlax. I support it for C-Rank.

[PTJon7]

Alright I just tested out Eelektross for myself, it's worthy of C-Rank. Here's the set I was using:

Eelektross (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 88 Spd / 252 SAtk / 56 Atk / 112 HP
Mild Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Superpower

Atk EVs guarentee Superpower 2HKOs Umbreon, speed EVs to outspeed uninvested base 60s, rest in SAtk and HP.

Eelektross has decent bulk, which is further improved by the fact that it has no weaknesses. Thanks to both it's physical and special attack being quite high (115 & 105) it can viably run many different kinds of sets thanks to it's great amount of coverage moves.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'd agree with adding Riolu to D-Rank. Why? Riolu can singlehandedly win the game for you. Prankster Copycat+Roar can be really annoying, with the great spikers viable in UU and the myriad of Stealth Rockers. Riolu can shuffle up whole team and put you in a nice win condition. As said, UU has great spinblockers that have more utility outside of spinblocking, and Cofag likes the hazards to sweep more easily. D-Rank at least.

I also agree with Amoonguss for B, Spore is a nice move and it's a good mixed wall that can take on shit like Kingdra and Mienshao well, which is nice. Clear Smog and Regenerator are also nice boons and it's definitely B-Rank.

Eelektross is definitely C, it's rare but it's a viable mixed attacker as said.

Btw I think it's appropriate to do sub-tiering now since the ranks are practically set and there's not much to change.

[relaunched]

Originally Posted by Fat Kitten Milk

Most importantly, though, is that when all of this is combined together, Amoonguss can be a useful utility poke, but is honestly outclassed in almost every way by Roserade. Arguably, Roserade is even a better partner to Slowbro because of its SpD bulk, letting it tank the things that Amoonguss just can't. Although it does lack the perfect accuracy sleep move, it has far greater utility, having access to not only an immensely superior SpA stat but also usability as a spiker or even a dualspiker.

Finally, Amoonguss is just sort of predictable. Unlike Roserade, who can and does run viable defensive and offensive sets, LO Amoonguss is a cheap gimmick at best and doesn't utilize its potential to be a decent defensive poke.

I know I just spent three paragraphs saying how bad Amoonguss is, but I actually am going to agree with PTJon7 here and nominate it for B-rank. Despite its flaws, it's important to recognize that it does fit a niche as the only viable sporer in the tier, and even though it is outclassed by Roserade, dedicated stall teams will appreciate its somewhat mixed bulk and regenerator ability. That said, it should be thought of as a low B-rank because of the flaws listed above.

Okay, either your definition of "outclass" is different from the Smogon-accepted definition or you are wrong, because by my definition of "outclassed", Roserade doesn't outclass Amoonguss. In the Smogon community, "Pokemon A outclasses Pokemon B" generally means there is no reason to use Pokemon B instead of using Pokemon A. Pokes that are truly outclassed probably should go in D-rank, because there is literally no reason to use them. As you have actually shown, Roserade does not outclass Amoonguss ("the only viable sporer in the tier...dedicated stall teams will appreciate its somewhat mixed bulk and regenerator ability."). It's also patently false that Roserade can tank special hits Amoonguss couldn't dream of tanking. Here are some calcs:

...

---

Picking a random special attack:

252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Roserade: 192-229 (59.25 - 70.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 231-273 (53.47 - 63.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Plus keep in mind the physical defensive capabilities they have with the same spread:

252 Atk Mienshao Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 206-244 (63.58 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mienshao Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 170-202 (39.35 - 46.75%)

Also, everyone in the thread who is arguing to put Riolu in D-Rank seems to actually be arguing for Riolu in C-Rank. Phrases like "Riolu can singlehandedly win the game for you" from the above post don't suggest a Pokemon which, as D-Rank suggests is "simply not very effective in the current metagame". I think people are missing the point of D-Rank. D-Rank (and E-Rank) are for Pokemon that were ranked higher earlier in the viability ranking process, are getting a lot of use by UU players but don't deserve it, or are tiered in UU but are actually useless in the metagame. After all, we can put Treecko and Torchic and any other worthless UU Pokemon in E-Rank all we want, but we don't need to, as it's already obvious. The point of actually recording that a Pokemon is in this rank is to make a point to those who think the Pokemon worth using in UU, not just to say that it's not a Pokemon worth using.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

That reminds me, D-Rank probably needs a definition change. The current D definition is pretty redundant with E, which both are basically saying "These Pokemon suck, don't use them". D should probably be for Pokemon that have a niche but cost more than they're worth, E should be "Pokemon that don't deserve to be used but they do". Just pointing that out.

[Kitten Milk]

Point taken, I should have done calcs before making statements like a dumbass :P That said, I still do believe that Roserade fits more niches than Amoonguss in that it is less predictable and can function as both a defensive and an offensive poke, and therefore that means that it outclasses it in the sense that it's more versatile, not that it renders Amoonguss obselete. Sorry about the wording.

In terms of the whole E thing, do we even need an E rank? Because you logically could put half of the RU/NU tiers straight in there with no point - perhaps we could just have a list of pokes that shouldn't be used in UU purely because they are outclassed (rendered obselete) by an existing poke. Just a thought.

[relaunched]

Kitten Milk, it'll be more clear to most if you say that Roserade is "better" than Amoonguss because it fits more niches, not that it "outclasses" it.

[PK Gaming]

E-tier has been removed. It was always kind of a novelty rank anyway.

I plan to go through every potential addition to the rank list at asap.

[DoABarrelRoll]

Originally Posted by Fat CoolStoryBrobat

I don't get it...This kind of goes back to one of the numerous arguments a few pages back on how we shouldn't throw ANY Pokemon in E-Rank simply because it's nonviable, because otherwise you could literally dump huge amounts of the lower tiers into it. E-Rank is simply an indicator that the Pokemon itself is pretty bad in this tier and it's preferred you not use it. Like for instance, I'm not going to nominate Golduck for E-Rank simply because it's fully outclassed in UU and has no niche...That's quite obvious and doesn't need to be listed for you to realize that. Dusclops is listed because it's actually in this metagame and has a notable amount of usage, but all its shortcomings leave so much to be desired.

While you could say that Electivire has no specific purpose other than for (attempting) a wallbreak while being stopped short by most defensive pokes (lol Porygon2 walks all over this thing), you took the high road and just said it's "A Pokemon for noobs" and we "all know the reason why it sucks". If that's the case, then why take the time to have it put into E-Rank? Lol.

Riolu however I guess I can understand, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned on any previous pages but it does have a (cheap, honorless, gimmicky) niche of being a speed shuffler, and able to do something no other Pokemon in the entire metagame can do at the same level. So unless someone's already dropped the verdict on that I agree with Riolu for E-Rank.

Yes but Electivire had 1% usage in april. That means you WILL see it in UU, even if it's rare. Hell, Electivire had twice the raw usage Eelektross had.
| 99 | Electivire | 0.75384% | 2592 | 1.059% | 2125 | 1.045% |
| 122 | Eelektross | 0.44751% | 1569 | 0.641% | 1365 | 0.671% |
Now that E-rank has been removed, FailVire really has no place in this thread.
Riolu could be D-rank considering it has a small niche, but it needs heavy support, priority moves are a problem, Sableye is very common, etc etc.

As for Eelektross, I think it's C-rank. Eelektross works best on Trick Room teams, but it's okay outside them too. It has better bulk than FailVire, higher Special Attack and Levitate, as well as moves like Grass Knot and Superpower.