Flat Battle / Random Battle Discussion - Page 2

SupremeDirt · Mar 9th, 2011, 11:12:08 AM

It does bother me if the ladder has it though.

No Mimic Mafro.

The ladder is pretty serious business, you can't deny that.

I guess we'll just have to wait 3 weeks to find out.

Ashenlock · Mar 9th, 2011, 11:16:31 AM

Psypokes stated pretty matter-of-factly that if you have a high enough ranking you may be invited to an official tournament.

That's all I found to answer the questions of the thread; I can't find anything besides Serebii which says one thing or another about the pre-Gen V learnset rule. I really hope it's not true, or at least applies only to hacked Unova pokemon, because I've already spent hours making a team that absolutely will not work under the literal interpretation of Serebii's claim.

Donasin · Mar 9th, 2011, 11:44:15 AM

I for one would be quite interested in seeing this type of tier/rule set implemented on the Smogon server.

While I know that may not be the point of this thread, I feel that a metagame, which more closely resembles in-game competitive battling would be interesting.

Ashenlock · Mar 9th, 2011, 1:28:43 PM

A ban of pre-Gen V moves would mean that even pokemon intended for use in Gen V's Global Battle Union would be banned if they knew moves they got in Gen IV, but what about event Raikou/Entei/Suicune, who know moves that have nothing to do with Gen IV TMs or Move Tutors? They basically just happened to be obtainable in Gen IV; their movesets have nothing to do with Gen IV exclusive moves.

EDIT: And to top that, they were made for Gen V event activation!

***Jibaku**** · Mar 9th, 2011, 1:35:59 PM

Having played on random match a good amount of time a while back, I can say that past-gen moves are NOT banned. I've used Superpower ttar and Scizor there.

Also, surprise sets rule the metagame. I've had good success with SashMixtar back then (idk about now though since I played pre-Drought/Drizzle, but...)

Ashenlock · Mar 9th, 2011, 1:42:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jibaku

Having played on random match a good amount of time a while back, I can say that past-gen moves are NOT banned. I've used Superpower ttar and Scizor there.

Also, surprise sets rule the metagame. I've had good success with SashMixtar back then (idk about now though since I played pre-Drought/Drizzle, but...)

Thank you for this info very, very much. I can sleep easier now.

I was wondering how they would have enforced that anyway, I mean, do they have a big list like Serebii full of can and can't haves? And what about Pokemon "Gray" move tutors, as there likely will be; would Gamefreak have "unbanned" moves as they became available to new pokemon?

Sprocket · Mar 9th, 2011, 1:43:07 PM

I don't think it's listed anywhere, but there's a good chance Soul Dew is banned using Flat Battle rules. I attempted to do a Battle Test in the Battle Institute in Nimbasa City, and I got a message saying that Soul Dew was banned from it. That leads me to believe Soul Dew is banned from Flat Battles.

At the moment it doesn't matter since Soul Dew can't legally be obtained yet. But when it is, and it turns out to be true, Latias and Latios will still be Flat Battle legal as long as they don't have the Soul Dew equipped.

I have no way of verifying this myself.

Ashenlock · Mar 9th, 2011, 9:10:07 PM

Does anyone who has experience with the ladder know how increments are gained/lost after battles? i.e. you start with 1500, how does much does it go up and down, and are there other factors besides win/loss or is it a hard-and-fast number of points you get or lose?

Critical Hyper Beam · Mar 10th, 2011, 4:47:34 AM

I'm looking forward to this. Hopefully I'll have a team ready to go by the 30th; I'm scared of Doubles/Triples, though. No Guard/OHKO, anyone? But I can see 3v3 Flat Battle being my favorite way to play. I'm especially pleased that Legendary-trolling won't be a factor; I was concerned about that possibility.

Shotoetoe · Mar 10th, 2011, 4:56:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Ashenlock

This is especially bad for double battles, with Dark Void. It's harder to set up a BP Agility-chain going to Breloom with 3 pokemon instead of 6, but Dark Void on Smeargle doesn't take any setup and is devastating. Fortunately, being only on Smeargle in the restricted battle, people will at least know to KO it first

Bouncing back dark void using magic coat/mirror is bound to be one of the most satisfying things.

Redtype · Mar 10th, 2011, 7:46:58 AM

Uh, and what about disconnects? Can't you just d/c if you're losing the battle and don't give a damn? This way you'll keep getting more and more points and don't lose anything... assuming other players will not d/c on you too, lol.

Can't believe Game Freak is this short sighted...

**PK Gaming** · Mar 10th, 2011, 10:22:02 AM

Only 3 on 3 battles in singles? The banning of 600BST legendaries? Random Wifi is way too restrictive. I would have enjoyed further customizing the abilitity to search for matches (ex: 6 vs 6, Sleep clause, no item clause, etc) but instead GF shoves their ruleset down our throats... Oh well, back to searching matches on the forums... Why can't GF listen to their fans like Capcom or Valve!?!

(Yes I am aware that the 600BST legendaries are banned because they're event legendaries... its still stupid)

Glen ^^ · Mar 10th, 2011, 10:28:04 AM

You're not allowed to use 4 gen TMs. My Tyranitar from Jouto with Stealth Rock can't battle, but the one from Unova can (since it's a Egg Move).

For some reason, Move Tutors are allowed. Don't know about 3rd gen Tutors.

This totally sucks, as some really cool Pokes like Focus Punch Tyraniboah and Roost Gliscor aren't allowed.

I've encountered very few people trying to abuse the lack of clauses. Thanks to team preview it's pretty easy to stop them.
Evasion is only dangerous when Baton Passed by Drifblim.

Latios sucks, though.

JeffreyLebowski · Mar 10th, 2011, 10:51:35 AM

this is very similar to random pbr and random wifi, isnt it?

Ashenlock · Mar 10th, 2011, 11:31:54 AM

Random PBR had a lot fewer restrictions, as I recall. I think there wasn't even a ban on two of the same pokemon in a team.

Miao · Mar 13th, 2011, 1:07:19 AM

A small change, and probably a bit obvious that level 50 gives: IVs give half the affect they do at 100, rounded down, making hidden power IVs less hazardous.

Basically, you lose nothing for taking a 30 speed IV over a 31 speed IV.

Edit: This doesn't always apply, read Sprocket's post below.

Sprocket · Mar 13th, 2011, 1:37:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Miao

A small change, and probably a bit obvious that level 50 gives: IVs give half the affect they do at 100, rounded down, making hidden power IVs less hazardous.

Basically, you lose nothing for taking a 30 speed IV over a 31 speed IV.

Not completely true. If you run a 30 IV, then you don't want to run a 252 EV, you want to run a 248 EV instead. Otherwise you waste 4 EVs. You also don't want to put 4 EV in a stat with a 30 IV, or you waste 4 EV.

Likewise if you run a 31 IV, you don't want to run a 248 EV, you want to run either a 244 or a 252 EV. 4 EV is fine, 8 EV is not, as well.

I'm not certain but I think the "magic HP number" for stealth rock damage, leftover recovery, weather damage, and so on slightly changes at level 50 versus level 100.

Wynn · Mar 13th, 2011, 3:52:56 AM

I don't know if you can really call it a metagame (then again, the validity of calling any specific ruleset a metagame has always confused me, given that the term, as I recall, was coined by Richard Garfield to describe the effect of Magic beyond the single round or the statistics and combination mathematics at all)

Regardless, Nintendo should have had this at the very least in Battle Revolution... But better late than never... Even the Stadiums have formating rules which promoted both open formating for set types, and a general idea of "fair" (in the non-whine way). This aside, evasion really only needs a cap rule (like accuracy) to be well balanced, as always-hit and accuracy boosting moves are pretty rampant in GenV.

I'm not really going to complain about the uncontrolled sleep or capping rules, because the next console installment is probably going to have quite a few of these options for online play. That aside, I'm also rather fond of the Lv50 rule, as the minor differences stack up to make the game more interesting at Lv50 (in my experience). Hopefully this will encourage the online community to put more effort into formats different from the old concepts of "Standard", to better suit several groups of players who compete instead of trying to run it on one (though this was once again on Game Freak for not trying to create SOME form of sanctioning)

Miao · Mar 13th, 2011, 4:16:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Sprocket

Not completely true. If you run a 30 IV, then you don't want to run a 252 EV, you want to run a 248 EV instead. Otherwise you waste 4 EVs. You also don't want to put 4 EV in a stat with a 30 IV, or you waste 4 EV.

Likewise if you run a 31 IV, you don't want to run a 248 EV, you want to run either a 244 or a 252 EV. 4 EV is fine, 8 EV is not, as well.

I'm not certain but I think the "magic HP number" for stealth rock damage, leftover recovery, weather damage, and so on slightly changes at level 50 versus level 100.

You're right, I hadn't thought of that, Odd IVs become more favorable whenever you have an odd number of EVs added, but make no different if you're adding an even amount to a stat (due to rounding).

Magic HP numbers don't change, it's still "divisible by 8, not 16". How you EV will change a little based on base stat rounding weirdness from that level difference.

This means all those EV spreads (especially those for HPs) might be altered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Wynn

This aside, evasion really only needs a cap rule (like accuracy) to be well balanced, as always-hit and accuracy boosting moves are pretty rampant in GenV.

Evasion is already capped, at +6 stages, just like accuracy. It's been that way since Gen III.

SupremeDirt · Mar 14th, 2011, 1:30:44 PM

Wrong.

It's been that way since Gen 1.

Evasion has always capped at +6.

Miao · Mar 15th, 2011, 12:56:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SupremeDirt

Wrong.

It's been that way since Gen 1.

Evasion has always capped at +6.

At least gen III then :P I wasn't sure about gen I and II, so said III to be on the safe side.

Anyways, back on topic.

I noticed that the Item Launcher variant for Flat Battle is missing, so here's the details on it. I haven't had a chance to experiment with it myself, so if I'm wrong, correct me and I'll edit this:

Wonder Launcher Basics

Wonder launcher only works if both players have it enabled, and is available on ladder matches.

Each turn, you gather points from arbitrary criteria (KOs, "positive" type matchups, and damage) - I haven't been able to find a good list of these.

You get a "Launcher" option, which works like normal items, but only uses wonder item listings.

The Items
All of these work the same as single player, special items are noted. Buff items, just like in single player, go away when switching out (although they probably stay in rotation battles, like any other stat buff).

Thanks goes to Serebii for this list.

1 point
Item Urge - It activates its teammate's item for immediate use when used.

2 points
Potion

3 points
Ability Urge - It activates its teammate's ability when used.
Dire Hit - Raises crit chance by 1 stage
Guard Spec. - Prevents stat reductions on your team for awhile
X Items - There's one for each stat, and one for accuracy

4 points
Super Potion
Ice Heal
Antidote
Awakening
Parlyz Heal
Burn Heal

5 points
Item Drop - Its teammate loses its held item if used.
X Items 2 - Buffs stat by 2 levels
Dire Hit 2 - Buffs crit chance by 2 levels

6 points
Full Heal

7 points
X Items 3 - Buffs stat by 3 levels
Dire Hit 3 - Buffs crit chance by 3 levels

8 points
Hyper Potion

9 points
Reset Urge - It returns its teammate's stat changes to normal when used.

10 points
Max Potion

11 points
Revive

12 points
Ether
X Items 6 - Boosts a stat by 6 stages (maxes it out)

13 points
Full Restore

14 points
Max Revive

Sprocket · Mar 15th, 2011, 1:02:06 PM

My only fear with Wonder Launcher is that a full-on stall team will be able to abuse the hell out of Max Revives and Full Restores. So I'm personally not a big fan of it for that reason.

It's kind of like playing Mario Kart, and the guy in 8th place with no chance of winning suddenly gets a back-to-back Lightning Bolt, Blue Shell, and Star Man, and wins the match, whereas the guy in 1st place who should have won is knocked all the way to last place in the final stretch.

That said since there will be ladders using it, and possibly official tournaments, probably makes sense to get used to it.

Miao · Mar 15th, 2011, 1:14:09 PM

I'm not sure it'll be wildly unbalanced, you'll see that their stall team is building up to a max revive or full restore, and know its coming.

With a level 3 stat boost coming before that, waiting for high level items (even a hyper potion) would be a very risky strategy.

Ashenlock · Mar 15th, 2011, 1:15:28 PM

Maybe it's like the Battle ... Arena? was that it, in Pokemon Emerald's frontier? Where stalling was basically a no-no?

Sprocket · Mar 15th, 2011, 1:22:28 PM

Then again using flat battle rules, singles and doubles you're limited to 3 and 4 Pokemon, and doubles and triples are a very fast paced battle mode. I can't see stall working as well as it does in 6v6 singles.

Mar 9th, 2011, 11:16:31 AM	#27
Ashenlock Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 954 Drinking more Coca-Cola than all the polar bears combined.	Psypokes stated pretty matter-of-factly that if you have a high enough ranking you may be invited to an official tournament. That's all I found to answer the questions of the thread; I can't find anything besides Serebii which says one thing or another about the pre-Gen V learnset rule. I really hope it's not true, or at least applies only to hacked Unova pokemon, because I've already spent hours making a team that absolutely will not work under the literal interpretation of Serebii's claim. __________________ 441 D/Cs and counting, baby! The Jerk Store* <- For reference only Contrary to popular belief, this is not a compendium of people who disconnect on Wi-Fi. See: Seinfeld*, "The Comeback."

Mar 9th, 2011, 11:44:15 AM	#28
Donasin Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 28	I for one would be quite interested in seeing this type of tier/rule set implemented on the Smogon server. While I know that may not be the point of this thread, I feel that a metagame, which more closely resembles in-game competitive battling would be interesting. __________________ United Forever in Friendship and Labour A Gen V OU RMT

Mar 9th, 2011, 1:28:43 PM	#29
Ashenlock Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 954 Drinking more Coca-Cola than all the polar bears combined.	A ban of pre-Gen V moves would mean that even pokemon intended for use in Gen V's Global Battle Union would be banned if they knew moves they got in Gen IV, but what about event Raikou/Entei/Suicune, who know moves that have nothing to do with Gen IV TMs or Move Tutors? They basically just happened to be obtainable in Gen IV; their movesets have nothing to do with Gen IV exclusive moves. EDIT: And to top that, they were made for Gen V event activation! __________________ 441 D/Cs and counting, baby! The Jerk Store* <- For reference only Contrary to popular belief, this is not a compendium of people who disconnect on Wi-Fi. See: Seinfeld*, "The Comeback."

Mar 9th, 2011, 1:35:59 PM	#30
*Jibaku I will bait you and outsmart you Super Moderator** Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5,919 Foursquare, a sprained ankle, bottlecap ninjas, and wallball	Having played on random match a good amount of time a while back, I can say that past-gen moves are NOT banned. I've used Superpower ttar and Scizor there. Also, surprise sets rule the metagame. I've had good success with SashMixtar back then (idk about now though since I played pre-Drought/Drizzle, but...) __________________

Mar 9th, 2011, 1:43:07 PM	#32
Sprocket Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,494 Phoenix, AZ	I don't think it's listed anywhere, but there's a good chance Soul Dew is banned using Flat Battle rules. I attempted to do a Battle Test in the Battle Institute in Nimbasa City, and I got a message saying that Soul Dew was banned from it. That leads me to believe Soul Dew is banned from Flat Battles. At the moment it doesn't matter since Soul Dew can't legally be obtained yet. But when it is, and it turns out to be true, Latias and Latios will still be Flat Battle legal as long as they don't have the Soul Dew equipped. I have no way of verifying this myself. __________________ Black FC: 2537-3042-2350 VGC2012 Analysis: Slowbro (Uploaded)

Mar 9th, 2011, 11:12:08 AM	#26
SupremeDirt Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 552	It does bother me if the ladder has it though. No Mimic Mafro. The ladder is pretty serious business, you can't deny that. I guess we'll just have to wait 3 weeks to find out.

Mar 9th, 2011, 9:10:07 PM	#33
Ashenlock Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 954 Drinking more Coca-Cola than all the polar bears combined.	Does anyone who has experience with the ladder know how increments are gained/lost after battles? i.e. you start with 1500, how does much does it go up and down, and are there other factors besides win/loss or is it a hard-and-fast number of points you get or lose? __________________ 441 D/Cs and counting, baby! The Jerk Store* <- For reference only Contrary to popular belief, this is not a compendium of people who disconnect on Wi-Fi. See: Seinfeld*, "The Comeback."

Mar 10th, 2011, 4:47:34 AM	#34
Critical Hyper Beam Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 39	I'm looking forward to this. Hopefully I'll have a team ready to go by the 30th; I'm scared of Doubles/Triples, though. No Guard/OHKO, anyone? But I can see 3v3 Flat Battle being my favorite way to play. I'm especially pleased that Legendary-trolling won't be a factor; I was concerned about that possibility. __________________ Team Rocket's Rockin'.

Mar 10th, 2011, 7:46:58 AM	#36
Redtype Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 742 Caution - Sawsbucks on road	Uh, and what about disconnects? Can't you just d/c if you're losing the battle and don't give a damn? This way you'll keep getting more and more points and don't lose anything... assuming other players will not d/c on you too, lol. Can't believe Game Freak is this short sighted... __________________ Trading is a serious business. White FC: 1678 3054 7710 SoulSilver FC: 2622 5126 4730

Mar 10th, 2011, 10:22:02 AM	#37
PK Gaming Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,562 Sumuru city	Only 3 on 3 battles in singles? The banning of 600BST legendaries? Random Wifi is way too restrictive. I would have enjoyed further customizing the abilitity to search for matches (ex: 6 vs 6, Sleep clause, no item clause, etc) but instead GF shoves their ruleset down our throats... Oh well, back to searching matches on the forums... Why can't GF listen to their fans like Capcom or Valve!?! (Yes I am aware that the 600BST legendaries are banned because they're event legendaries... its still stupid) __________________

Mar 10th, 2011, 10:28:04 AM	#38
Glen ^^ Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 434 San Paulo - Brazil	You're not allowed to use 4 gen TMs. My Tyranitar from Jouto with Stealth Rock can't battle, but the one from Unova can (since it's a Egg Move). For some reason, Move Tutors are allowed. Don't know about 3rd gen Tutors. This totally sucks, as some really cool Pokes like Focus Punch Tyraniboah and Roost Gliscor aren't allowed. I've encountered very few people trying to abuse the lack of clauses. Thanks to team preview it's pretty easy to stop them. Evasion is only dangerous when Baton Passed by Drifblim. Latios sucks, though.

Mar 10th, 2011, 10:51:35 AM	#39
JeffreyLebowski Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 344 Why is it that fools fall in love?	this is very similar to random pbr and random wifi, isnt it? __________________ Perhaps we are all fools... My Youtube. Challenge me! \| Joint Trade thread with Ashi and Fell Angel. Please respond in my thread. HG: 0818 5113 8089 Storage \| SS: 2579 5465 8994 Main Trading and Battling FC \| Black: 1677 9404 7032

Mar 10th, 2011, 11:31:54 AM	#40
Ashenlock Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 954 Drinking more Coca-Cola than all the polar bears combined.	Random PBR had a lot fewer restrictions, as I recall. I think there wasn't even a ban on two of the same pokemon in a team. __________________ 441 D/Cs and counting, baby! The Jerk Store* <- For reference only Contrary to popular belief, this is not a compendium of people who disconnect on Wi-Fi. See: Seinfeld*, "The Comeback."

Mar 13th, 2011, 1:07:19 AM	#41
Miao Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 122	A small change, and probably a bit obvious that level 50 gives: IVs give half the affect they do at 100, rounded down, making hidden power IVs less hazardous. Basically, you lose nothing for taking a 30 speed IV over a 31 speed IV. Edit: This doesn't always apply, read Sprocket's post below. Last edited by Miao; Mar 13th, 2011 at 4:31:55 AM. Reason: Don't post while sleepy. You'll miss things.

Mar 13th, 2011, 3:52:56 AM	#43
Wynn Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2	I don't know if you can really call it a metagame (then again, the validity of calling any specific ruleset a metagame has always confused me, given that the term, as I recall, was coined by Richard Garfield to describe the effect of Magic beyond the single round or the statistics and combination mathematics at all) Regardless, Nintendo should have had this at the very least in Battle Revolution... But better late than never... Even the Stadiums have formating rules which promoted both open formating for set types, and a general idea of "fair" (in the non-whine way). This aside, evasion really only needs a cap rule (like accuracy) to be well balanced, as always-hit and accuracy boosting moves are pretty rampant in GenV. I'm not really going to complain about the uncontrolled sleep or capping rules, because the next console installment is probably going to have quite a few of these options for online play. That aside, I'm also rather fond of the Lv50 rule, as the minor differences stack up to make the game more interesting at Lv50 (in my experience). Hopefully this will encourage the online community to put more effort into formats different from the old concepts of "Standard", to better suit several groups of players who compete instead of trying to run it on one (though this was once again on Game Freak for not trying to create SOME form of sanctioning)

Mar 14th, 2011, 1:30:44 PM	#45
SupremeDirt Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 552	Wrong. It's been that way since Gen 1. Evasion has always capped at +6.

Mar 15th, 2011, 1:02:06 PM	#47
Sprocket Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,494 Phoenix, AZ	My only fear with Wonder Launcher is that a full-on stall team will be able to abuse the hell out of Max Revives and Full Restores. So I'm personally not a big fan of it for that reason. It's kind of like playing Mario Kart, and the guy in 8th place with no chance of winning suddenly gets a back-to-back Lightning Bolt, Blue Shell, and Star Man, and wins the match, whereas the guy in 1st place who should have won is knocked all the way to last place in the final stretch. That said since there will be ladders using it, and possibly official tournaments, probably makes sense to get used to it. __________________ Black FC: 2537-3042-2350 VGC2012 Analysis: Slowbro (Uploaded)

Mar 15th, 2011, 1:14:09 PM	#48
Miao Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 122	I'm not sure it'll be wildly unbalanced, you'll see that their stall team is building up to a max revive or full restore, and know its coming. With a level 3 stat boost coming before that, waiting for high level items (even a hyper potion) would be a very risky strategy.

Mar 15th, 2011, 1:15:28 PM	#49
Ashenlock Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 954 Drinking more Coca-Cola than all the polar bears combined.	Maybe it's like the Battle ... Arena? was that it, in Pokemon Emerald's frontier? Where stalling was basically a no-no? __________________ 441 D/Cs and counting, baby! The Jerk Store* <- For reference only Contrary to popular belief, this is not a compendium of people who disconnect on Wi-Fi. See: Seinfeld*, "The Comeback."

Mar 15th, 2011, 1:22:28 PM	#50
Sprocket Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,494 Phoenix, AZ	Then again using flat battle rules, singles and doubles you're limited to 3 and 4 Pokemon, and doubles and triples are a very fast paced battle mode. I can't see stall working as well as it does in 6v6 singles. __________________ Black FC: 2537-3042-2350 VGC2012 Analysis: Slowbro (Uploaded)