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Feb 8th, 2012, 7:52:37 AM
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#1351 |
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 747
Italy
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Long
Short
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On hiatus due to parents [AWE]MichaelK: Ive been doin lc for a bit and I gotta say its kinda fun Billy Pones: Is LC overcentralized as OU? I was planning to start testtestaway: Nothing is as overcentralied as OU. I'd rather drink diarrhea than play OU. |
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Feb 8th, 2012, 12:48:49 PM
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#1352 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,053
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Yeah it's hard fitting everything you want in, which was why I mentioned Salamence in the first place. With Salamence, you're looking at using Hone Claws once and then attacking, ideally OHKOing the enemy (i.e. no roost, and since it can't even ES, then that's another moveslot you didn't need to worry about trying to fit in).
With Dragonite, you want to take advantage of its bulk. You want to have more than one boost. That's why you might want roost, but the fact that Dragonite is not that fast means it might not be able to get the roost in before it faints sometimes. That's just how it is. That's probably also why Dragon Dance / Sub / Roost / Dragon Claw is the most successful use of Dragonite in Subway so far. Yes, people (like myself) used it in crippling/trick-scarf teams, but from my experience, there are plenty of things it can set up on even without crippling... surprisingly, even some rock types (You DD as you take a hit with Multiscale. Then sub roost stall out all the stone edge/rockslide, and then can set up). In a way, Dragonite can just run Dragon Rush / Sub / Roost / Hone Claws, but that's really just inferior to DD. Of course, you do only have 2 move slots after HC and Dragon Rush, so you just got to make the best out of that. EDIT: hah, on that note, I did use Agility/Sub/Hone Claws/Meteor Mash Metagross before. It's awesome but can't set up too reliably. I've been in that situation where I "want to use the more inaccurate moves because I have hone claws" before. It simply shouldn't be assessed that way. It should always be "what's the best attack to use for this move slot", not "I use this because it can now take advantage of the accuracy issue". I pointed out before that Fire Punch does equally well, and sometimes even better vs the steel types in Subway. I did not say that meaning you should definitely use Fire Punch over Fire Blast. It's merely to state that Fire Blast shouldn't be used simply because of the improved accuracy. The fact, as stated, is that without SpA, Fire Blast does not OHKO much other than non-Occa Scizor, which +0 Fire Punch OHKOs too. If I were in your case and I really wanted to use Hone Claws Dragonite, I would probably actually just use Earthquake > Fire Blast. Reasons: 1) It hits ground-weak steel types harder than uninvested Fire Blast and obviously also hits harder than Fire Punch due to higher base power. It's also a non-contact move that could be potentially useful for Static and Flame Body pokemon (unfortunately Volcarona and Balloon ones aren't weak to ground but whatever). 2) I see that I have HP Fire Magnezone and a strong fighting type as teammates that can make Dragonite's time much easier vs things like Ferrothorn/Scizor. EDIT: Forgot to mention, one of the main reasons to not use Fire Blast is that you have to run a -Def/SpDef nature if you want to keep Dragonite speedy enough, which sort of goes against Multiscale -> one of its main selling points of why you'd want to use Dragonite in the first place. By the way, there aren't even any Balloon steel types (if you look at the subway pokemon text file I linked to) in subway. That's all I have to say on this matter I think. It's also just what I "think" based on what I know. I haven't actually tried any HC Dragonite, so who knows, maybe Fire Blast does end up being better for reasons unknown to me. If I'm ever trying HC Dragonite, I'll probably try out something weird like bulky Dnite with HC / Agility / Dragon Rush / Roost, hehe. Just too bad Sub can't be fit in that set. Anyway, have fun.
Short
Last edited by Chinese Dood; Feb 8th, 2012 at 1:12:44 PM. |
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Feb 8th, 2012, 8:10:53 PM
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#1353 |
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,099
Falling, falling, into darkness
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Ah, Dragonite just the pokemon I wanted to ask about. I've been using him on my team and I've had a decent success with him but I've been noticing recently that I would have won more battles if I had more bulk over the 252/speed/attack that I was running. What do you guys think is the best spread for bulky Dragonite?
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Feb 8th, 2012, 10:14:42 PM
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#1354 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,053
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It depends heavily on what move set you are using... specifically if it has which of the following: DD / Sub / Roost (or Rest???), and if you're holding leftovers or Lum (or something else)?
An all out-attacker or something that you want to have just one DD (or Hone Claws I guess) you might just want to stick with the offensive 252 speed and attack spread, whereas if you're aiming to get multiple DDs or HCs, then maybe something more defensive. If it's DD, then you can take some (or all) of it from Speed into HP (i.e. it could run 252 HP 252 Attack). If it's HC... then I dunno. You probably should have a list of things you aim to outspeed and then have speed based on that and put the rest in HP. |
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Feb 9th, 2012, 2:16:47 AM
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#1355 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,099
Falling, falling, into darkness
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I was using DD/Roost/Dragon Claw/Fire punch but I FP punch hasn't been seeing much action. It had not occurred to me to use Sub but I will probably use that over fire punch now.
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Feb 9th, 2012, 6:33:33 AM
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#1356 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,053
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For DD/Sub/Roost/Dragon Claw, you can't really go wrong with Jumpman's EV spread for his 371 streak: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=548 (I used the same EV spread too for my 276 streak... though I actually arrived at that EV spread myself before looking at his, but who cares).
Basically, max attack, enough HP to get leftovers #, then the rest into defenses, 4 speed for outspeeding base 80s without speed EVs. Enjoy sub-roost stalling rock types out of their stone edge and rock slide PPs. |
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Feb 9th, 2012, 6:56:38 AM
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#1357 |
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Never give up!
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,070
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longest Cloyster streak
Black Battle Subway Super Singles streaks: 49, 172, 169, 179, 275
Team: Cloyster, Garchomp, Suicune 1. Cloyster (F) Item: Focus Sash Ability: Skill Link Nature: Adamant IVs: 31-31-31-00-31-31 EV spread: 6-252-0-0-0-252 Lv.50: 126-161-200-81-65-122 Moves: ~ Icicle Spear ~ Rock Blast ~ Shell Smash ~ Razor Shell I dislike the shaky accuracy of Rock Blast (which is like 50/50 for me) and Razor Shell and I always prefer a NVE Icicle Spear unless the other two are really necessary. I´d much rather use Surf (with a Naughty nature) against cursers, even though 161*75 is 21% stronger than 105*95 and Razor Shell can outdamage Surf in some important situations. Cloyster is still an insane Pokémon and the amount of sweeps it gets by itself is unreal (just see the logs). 2. Garchomp (M) Item: Choice Scarf Ability: Sand Veil Nature: Adamant IVs: 31-31-31-09-31-31 EV spread: 0-252-0-0-6-252 Lv.50: 183-200-115-80-106-154 Moves: ~ Outrage ~ Earthquake ~ Fire Fang ~ Aerial Ace Doesn´t see many battles outside of its Pokéball, but is a very important team member due to the other two being Electric weak. Fire Fang is a necessity for those annoying Bug/Steels. Scarf is the only option for me with this team, from my experience. There´s too much dangerous stuff outspeeding Chomp without a Scarf. 3. Suicune „AURA“ Item: Leftovers Ability: Pressure Nature: Bold IVs: 31-7-31-30-31-31 (HP Electric 70) EV spread: 236-0-244-0-0-30 Lv.50: 205-74-182-110-135-109 Moves: ~ Scald ~ Rest ~ Calm Mind ~ Substitute Really shines in Singles where it doesn´t get double-targeted. The best at what it does, by far. Proven by many others. I was crazy again in this streak and wrote down a shorter version of my battles (logs).
shorter version of logs #54-172 - trainer type & name I faced, final score, which team member got the KOs (more exactly which ones stayed at least 1 turn against a particular foe), plus some logs of interesting battles
Obligatory "Starmie loss when using Cloyster" lol...well, Starmie didn´t get the win by itself. Foreword: I just attack Starmie 4 (or any unknown Mie set) with Icicle Spear because Mie 4 has a 10% chance to paralyze you with Thunderbolt, making Shell Smash useless plus there´s the annoying 10% chance of a King´s Rock flinch. Afterwards Garchomp can easily dispatch of Mie with a simple Quake. Adamant Chomp does 129-153 dmg against 135 HP Starmie with Outrage. My second option to deal with a Mie 4 situation is to switch in Chomp and "hope" for a damage roll of rand. 89-100 in the damage formula, which is a 75% (12/16) probablity of OHKOing Mie. The bad thing is that if I don´t roll those numbers, Starmie OHKOs (100%)Chomp back with Ice Beam and I´m back at square 1, just with one less Pokémon. My third option is to sacrifice Cloy/go for the Outrage and then try to set up Cune against a paralyzing and flinching 8 Thunderbolts. I have bad experience with this Starmie against my Cune from the past, so I don´t like this option much. How I lost battle #173 vs Psychic Khaan - Starmie, Medicham, Gardevoir: 1. Starmie Bolt, Cloy Sash, Sash Spear. 2. Starmie Psychic, Cloy KO - my Chomp. 3. Chomp Quake, Mie KO - foe Cham. 4. Chomp Quake, Cham 3% left, Cham HJK, Chomp KO, Cham LO dmg, Cham KO - my Cune, foe Garde. 5. Garde Psychic Gem Psychic, Cune CM, Cune 114/205 after Lefties. 6. Garde Bolt, Cune Rest. 7. Garde Bolt, CH, Cune asleep. 8. Garde Bolt, Cune KO. 0-1 Adamant Chomp does 118-141 dmg against 135 HP / 95 def Medicham 4 with Earthquake. Chomp thus has a 37,5% chance to OHKO Cham (5/16) if it rolls rand. 96-100 in the damage formula. It obviously didn´t. Had I chosen Outrage against Starmie, Medicham gets OHKOed and depending on Outrage duration, Chomp also gets a Gardevoir KO (incase of a 2 turn Outrage, by reswitching/sacrificing Cune)... This was a really bad matchup, because Suicune can take on the whole Psychic Trainer armada save for a few hard hitting Pokémon, I think these 3 are the most threatening by far. In the Cune vs Garde scenario, doing what I did was the only option I had - to hope no Bolt gets a CH...as always, the CH happened very early lol. 177 bolt vs 202 sD (+1) = 64-66-68-72-74-76 177 bolt vs 270 sD (+2) = 48-50-52-54-56-58 Funny thing is that my "lose in the very first set of 7 that day" curse applied to this team, when I lost my very first battle of the day with the team on Tuesday (#50) lol...afterwards I started this streak and did 112 that day and 49 yesterday. But the most ridiculous thing about this streak is the fact that 172 is exactly the highest Cloyster streak achieved so far (by yadazhai) lol and in the latest battles I was like oh please let me at least beat that streak...ffff As you can see from the logs, I didn´t have that much trouble as you´d expect when having two Waters in a team, but it really works. Also this is the first team to get me to 56 and more in the Subway other than Latias-Registeel-Garchomp. Some stats from the logs: 80/123 battles were 3-0 wins = 65,04% 37/123 battles were 2-0 wins = 30,08% 6/123 battles were 1-0 wins = 4,88% 48 clean sweeps just by Cloyster itself (39% of battles), 17 by Suicune and 2 by Chomp. The remaining 3-0s were a combined effort. 3rd streak 172 still stands as the longest/highest Cloyster streak... I lost in the same ... ... ... set of seven (169-175) as last time and it was yet another stupid Thunderbolt hax. The first four Thunderbolts in the game were paralyze-paralyze-normal hit-CH. #170 vs Pilot Artemas - Drifblim, Braviary, Togekiss: 1. Drifblim used Thunderbolt, Cloy paralyzed, Cloy Shell Smash. 2. Drifblim used Shadow Ball, Cloy fainted. - my Cune 3. Drifblim used Thunderbolt, Cune paralyzed, Cune Sub. 4. Drifblim used Thunderbolt, Sub broke, Cune CM. 5. Drifblim used Thunderbolt, CH, Cune fainted. - my Chomp 6. Chomp used Outrage, Drifblim used Icy Wind. 7. Chomp used Outrage, Drifblim fainted, Chomp confused. - foe Braviary 8. Chomp used Outrage, Braviary 15% left, Braviary used Brave Bird, Chomp fainted. 0-2 Seriously? I didn´t know whether to CM or Sub with Cune first because I didn´t know if it was set 3 or 4, set 4 would maybe go for Hypnosis... At least kill me at 174 stupid AI! Why didn´t I just Icicle Spear the shit out of Drifblim turn 1? Maybe because I had yet to lose a Pokémon against a Pilot...also didn´t check the movesets, set 1 is set up bait, sets 234 probably all go for the killing Bolt, damn I should´ve switched in Chomp then Cune to see what set it is... I can´t change that now, too late. I really hate myself now, I had only like 1 troublesome battle until then...I felt something was coming when Muk 4 just Exploded on me turn 1 at #169 as I switched in Chomp (which actually survived it with like 30 HP)... I should stop playing this game, once and for all, it clearly hates me...lol I´m such a sore loser. 4th streak I dealt with the #173 and #170 losses with my Cloyster team, but not by taking a break from the Subway. I simply am not the kind to give up, no matter what. Today, I played excessively, all day long (also while watching alpine skiing, davis cup and ski jumping, so it took longer as I wasn´t always paying attention)...and beat #172 once and for all... ...only to lose battle #180 to TrickSpecs Latias that got a CH DM with its last PP against the incoming Suicune, that was supposed to set up. #180 vs Veteran Leron - Latias, Virizion, Moltres: 1. Latias Trick Specs-Sash, Cloy Shell Smash. 2. Switched out Cloy, Chomp in, Latias Thunderbolt, Chomp unaffected. 3. Switch out Chomp, Cloy in, Latias Draco Meteor 1, Cloy fainted. - Chomp in 4. Switched out Chomp, Cune in, Latias Draco Meteor 2-3, Cune avoided. 5. Switched out Cune, Chomp in, Latias Draco Meteor 4, Chomp lives with around 40 HP. 6. Switched out Chomp, Cune in, Latias Draco Meteor 5, CH, Cune fainted. - Chomp in 7. Chomp Outrage, Latias Sash, Latias Psychic. 8. Chomp Outrage, Latias fainted, Chomp confused. - foe Virizion 9. Chomp Outrage, 60%, Virizion Leaf Blade, Chomp fainted. 0-2 I didn´t even know there was a TrickSpecs Latias so I Shell Smashed, but whatever (from my exp, what has Draco Meteor, uses Draco Meteor, maybe this was the first time I faced set 3). I should´ve just stopped after 175 was done, because the 169-175 set of seven was really something else, yet again. But of course, that CH was just evil...seeing the AI still had Virizion, there still was the chance of me losing if it got a CH Leaf Blade after breaking my Sub...what if... I´ve had more bad luck during this streak, about 3 paralyzing electric attacks turn 1, some turn 1 flinches (about 3) and one really close battle around 115 when I was a coinflip away from losing, had Cune hurt itself in confusion while waking up (low health) against Esca 4 (dmg to itself + Iron Head would´ve finished it off)...Cune won that battle. Another not so good one was in the infamous 169-175 set of seven, faced Palm´s Regice 4 and I PP wasted Blizzard and Focus Blast and felt smart when I wanted to switch out Chomp and bring in Cloyster to the predicted AI switch...Regice stayed with Thunder Wave and Thunder against Chomp, obviously paralyzing the incoming Cloyster...afterwards I Quaked Regice away (it still stayed) and foe brought Salamence - sacrificed Cloyster, Outraged Salamence and last Poké was Krook that almost killed Chomp with Dark Gem Crunch (Chomp got hit by Focus Blast turn 1), Chomp finished in 2 hits. Well, now I own the longest Cloyster streak, if only by 7 (don´t know if I should be happy or cry)...the Subway sure likes to troll me, hard. 5th streak Battle #276 vs Backpacker Felton - Tyranitar, Gyarados, Beartic: 1. Switch out Cloy, Chomp in, Tyranitar T-Wave, Chomp unaffected. 2. Chomp Quake, 75% dmg, Tyranitar Stealth Rock. 3. Chomp Quake, Tyranitar fainted. - foe Gyarados 4. Switch out Chomp, Cloy in, Stealth Rock dmg 95/126 HP, Gyarados DD1. 5. Gyara DD2, Cloy Shell Smash, sand dmg, Cloy 81/126 HP. 6. Gyara Aqua Tail 1, Cloy fainted. - my Cune 7. Gyara T-Wave, Cune Sub. 8. Gyara DD3, Cune Rest. 9. Gyara DD4, Cune fast asleep. 10. Gyara Aqua Tail 2-3, Sub faded, Cune fast asleep. 11. Gyara DD5, Cune woke up, Cune Sub 12. Gyara DD6, Cune Sub, already has Sub. 13. Gyara Aqua Tail 4-5, Sub faded, Cune Sub, 103/205 HP. 14. Gyara Aqua Tail 6-7, Sub faded, Cune Sub, 52/205 HP. 15. Gyara Ice Fang 1-2, Sub faded, Cune Rest. 16. Gyara Aqua Tail 8-9, Cune 94/205, Cune fast asleep. 17. Gyara Aqua Tail 10, Cune fainted. 18. Gyara Ice Fang, Chomp fainted. 0-2 Basically, I misplayed and let Gyarados fully set up and play with me instead of just attacking it with Cloyster. Gyarados 1 Muscle Band 191 182 89 80 120 122 Ice Fang Aqua Tail Thunder Wave Dragon Dance 161 attack Cloyster Icicle Spear vs 89 def Gyarados = 5 x (25-31) = 125-155 dmg / 191 HP = 65-81% 161 attack Cloyster Rock Blast vs 89 def Gyarados = 5 x (34-42) = 170-210 dmg / 191 HP = 89-100% 1. I thought it would Aqua Tail instead of the second DD turn 5, even though I knew it wouldn´t KO. Plus there was the % of Thunder Wave which would screw Cloy...not attacking turn 5 was the game deciding mistake. Now I remember that I had almost the exact same situation before when Chomp was locked into Quake and I chose Rock Blast after the switch if I remember correctly...oh well. 2. Turn 6 was a Speed Tie (I noticed 122 just after clicking Smash) that I obviously lost, I´ve only won 1 speed tie so far against the 163 speed DD Haxorus set 4 in like 5-6 tries. 3. I should´ve probably risked a Scald turn 8, more likely turn 12, turn 15 would´ve been too late, I guess. Scald only does 21-25 dmg / 191 HP = 11-13% though, I would have to pray for a Burn. I´ve faced all of the stuff that ended my previous streaks including Starmie 4, Gardevoir 4, Trick Latias, Drifblim and dealt with them properly. The most recent scare I got was from Cobalion that Psych Upped 2 Shell Smashes but it only has Iron Head so Suicune finished it off. At #265 lead Durant began with a CH flinching Hustle Rock Slide, missed Shadow Claw turn 2 and Razor Shell lowered its defense, Chomp finished with Quake only to face ScarfSkarm Brave Birding, Cune stalled it. I´ve had a close battle around 190 where I misclicked Aerial Ace to finish off a 35% health Empoleon, only to give it Torrent + Petaya boosts (oops). Won because the first Blizzard missed and Chomp got in another AA, leaving Empo at like 8% in KO range of Scald...Suicune was only at 50 health or so because it stalled something else at the start of the battle to give Cloy a chance to set up. Don´t remember much of the battles up to 200, because I played 28 or 35 battles per day, 42 yesterday...the last couple of days were 92-119, 120-154, 154-182, 183-210, 211-252, 253-276...
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Black & White Battle Subway Records Platinum/HG/SS Battle Frontier and DP Battle Tower Records DP Battle Tower Records (Smogon's Greatest Hits) Emerald Battle Frontier Max Stats Pokemon Database Battle Subway Super Singles record: 623 - Cloyster, Garchomp, Suicune Last edited by Peterko; Feb 28th, 2012 at 10:13:40 AM. Reason: added all other streaks with the team |
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Feb 9th, 2012, 2:39:42 PM
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#1358 |
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 790
Australia
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Yeah I used Naughty + Surf but it is really only good for setting up against Cursers and beating defensively biased steels (Cobalion being the main one). Surf tended to fall should a lot though to be perfectly honest I'd rather use Icicle Spear for most things anyway.
Why do I suddenly have the urge to start a new streak with Cloyster again? |
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Feb 9th, 2012, 2:48:06 PM
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#1359 |
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 25
Manchester
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Peterko, apologies if you've already thought of this, but for Starmie, you could try Pressure stalling it out of Thunderbolt PP by switching between Suicune and Garchomp, and then setting up with Suicune, although I understand that even a NVE critical hit Ice Beam could ruin that strategy - it could potentially save yourself from losing Cloyster early on though.
Also, on Garchomp, wouldn't using Earthquake on Bug/Rocks be both more damaging and slightly more reliable? Unless you meant Bug/Steel, but even then Rock and Steel both share a weakness to Earthquake, the only real use Fire Fang has that I've found so far is on levitating Steel types like Skarmory/Bronzong/Air Balloon anything.
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I'm the Bad Luck Boy. Challenge TSR's Gears of War Steel Gym...if you dare. |
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Feb 9th, 2012, 3:28:10 PM
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#1360 | |
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Never give up!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,070
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RiggyRob yep I meant Bug/Steel but wrote Bug/Rock, wasn´t thinking cleary, I guess...
Durant Escavalier Scizor Those three are annoyingly strong and durable, well Durant not on the special def. side but still it´s fast and Cune doesn´t like Hustle Scissors...lol I´ve only started another streak (1-21) today and faced Durant 3 Occa Berry 133 161 132 61 68 177 X-Scissor Iron Head Rock Slide Shadow Claw it got a flinch with Slide turn 1, finished off Cloy with Iron Head turn 2, then it got 6 CHs with Scissor and Claw in the first 10 hits or so against Cune, every Claw hit was a CH, like he was calling them and thus using an effectively 70 (well 140) over 120 power attack in-between...Cune was able to stall it somehow and throw in two Scalds that got rid of Durant. Scizor is bad because of Bullet Punch and TechniBite breaks Cune´s sub, I faced a Swarm one today and it needed 2 to break the sub, allowing Cune to set up. Escavalier is the most durable and hard hitting of them all, one set has QC and SD, one LO. Actually, that tactics with switching back and forth between Cune and Chomp (Beam / Bolt) respectively didn´t even occur to me, but there´s a problem I see...well maybe two 1) Starmie throws in a random Psychic on the switch in to Chomp, sometimes the AI does that kind of sh... 2) Ice Beam runs out of PP earlier (10 PP, pressure) than Thunderbolt (15 PP, no pressure), while Bolt is the main problem...wait turn 1: switch to chomp, bolt 1 turn 2: switch to cune, beam 1-2 turn 3: switch to chomp, bolt 2 turn 4: switch to cune, beam 3-4 turn 5: switch to chomp, bolt 3 turn 6: switch to cune, beam 5-6 turn 7: switch to chomp, bolt 4 turn 8: switch to cune, beam 7-8 turn 9: switch to chomp, bolt 5 turn 10: switch to cune, beam 9-10, PP wasted turn 11: switch to chomp, bolt 6 turn 12: chomp outrage or switch cune into surf ... Beam does 20-24 damage to Cune, Lefties (-12) make it 8-12 damage. Surf does 30-36 damage. So if there´s no CH beams, Cune should be at min. 145/205 HP at the end of turn 10 or 121/205 at the end of turn 12. There´s still 5 (9 PP) bolts, which do 82-98 damage. Then there´s always the King´s Rock "thing" and Psychic sD drops... I don´t think it would work, I mean PP stalling Bolt, but giving chomp a chance to live after a non-OHKOing outrage - starmie max dmg CH surf is 182/183 HP if I calced correctly...that one could work, ideally with a 2 turn outrage to still have a living chomp to finish off something later, if needed. Locking into Outrage is handy, but can backfire...there´s one battle log where I had to Outrage, only to activate a Salac-Overgrow-Energy Ball on Venusaur (lol now I see there were two - #67 and #126), fortunately Chomp survived that and I sacrificed Cune in order to finish off with Chomp... Quote:
btw. ICICLE SPEAR 0 CHs in 5 hits = 72,42% at least 1/5 CH = 27,58% 1 CH in 5 hits = 24,14% 2 CHs in 5 hits = 3,219% 3 CHs in 5 hits = 0,215% 4 CHs in 5 hits = 0,00715% 5 CHs in 5 hits = 0,00009537% Often, that one CH is really important in scoring a KO.
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Black & White Battle Subway Records Platinum/HG/SS Battle Frontier and DP Battle Tower Records DP Battle Tower Records (Smogon's Greatest Hits) Emerald Battle Frontier Max Stats Pokemon Database Battle Subway Super Singles record: 623 - Cloyster, Garchomp, Suicune Last edited by Peterko; Feb 9th, 2012 at 3:41:39 PM. |
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Feb 9th, 2012, 4:13:08 PM
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#1361 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,053
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Hey Peterko, have you tried Lum Suicune?
I used it when another pokemon wanted leftovers more (e.g. Dragonite, Curselax without Rest, etc.), and sometimes lum works even better than leftovers for Suicune, just because the initial ability to set up is so important. Of courses, there are benefits and costs to it. |
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Feb 9th, 2012, 6:06:22 PM
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#1362 |
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Never give up!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,070
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Not sure if Lum wouldn´t mean much more problems with stuff I need to stall, because lefties give me room for the initial sub round...Lum´s instant Rest helps as well, dunno.
I have exp. with Lefties (singles) and Chesto (doubles)...from the top of my head, my team doesn´t like the fast Spore Breloom, Lum would help, but I like Lefties, for now :) Oh yeah, speaking of Psychic trainers with lead Starmie against my Cloyster team, I´ve just continued the new 21 streak, and faced Mie 4 at #25 lol...AI is an ugly counter-teamer in the first couple of sets... tried out the Ice Beam PP wasting version...accidentally switched in Cloyster into a Bolt instead of Chomp, go me lol...anyway PP wasted and then went for the Outrage, rolled min or close min damage (obviously) and Surf did less than half, second Outrage KOd, foe sent in Froslass ._. third Outrage - Sash - Icy Wind, Chomp KO Fortunately, Lass 4 is Cune set up bait unless it gets insane Shadow Ball hax, but it keeps Destiny Bonding after the initial Shadow Ball...fully set up Cune, last Poké TR Lum Eggy (healed burn), but Cune was behind a sub and 2HKOed :) Hope I don´t see lead Mie for a while now ... ... ... but I will use this tactics from now on, seems to be the most hax-proof of them.
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Black & White Battle Subway Records Platinum/HG/SS Battle Frontier and DP Battle Tower Records DP Battle Tower Records (Smogon's Greatest Hits) Emerald Battle Frontier Max Stats Pokemon Database Battle Subway Super Singles record: 623 - Cloyster, Garchomp, Suicune |
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Feb 9th, 2012, 11:52:04 PM
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#1363 |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 53
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Battle Subway Super Single Record: 123
Whimsicott @ Full Incense
Prankster, Bold 252 HP, 252 SpD, 4 Def Stats: 167, 65, 116, 90, 127, 135 ~Switcheroo ~Leech Seed ~Charm ~Flash The idea of the team is to switcheroo the opponent first turn so that Butterfree is faster and the opponent won’t have items like Quick Claw, Chesto, Lum and Brightpowder. Full Incense also overrides Trick Room which is great. After Switcheroo I Flash or Charm depending on the situation, generally Flash opponents with Rock moves instead of Charming first. Leech Seed is mostly for Substitute threats but I hardly use it, I also use it if I want to set Chansey up on an opponent with Rest, Leech Seed and Seismic Toss almost always does enough damage to KO the opponent while Resting. If I retry this team I would definitely change the EVs to have max Defense because Special attackers aren’t a problem for the team. Chansey @ Eviolite Natural Cure, Bold 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpD Stats: 357, 22, 62, 55, 126, 70 ~Toxic ~Seismic Toss ~Minimize ~Softboiled I tried the Butterfree-Whimsicott combo a bunch of times but could never find a good third teammate, it has to be able to switch in on weather inducers, Early Birds, Insomnia, some Taunters, Sap Sippers, Sound Proof Pokémon, and be able to set up on as many other Pokémon as possible in case something goes wrong. I tried things like Suicune, Porygon2, Togekiss and Garchomp, Porygon2 was the only one that did well (I got to 102 with it). I was really surprised at how defensive Chansey was and at how well she can take down a whole team after Minimizing. I switch into Chansey if the first opponent can’t defeat her otherwise I Switcheroo and set up with Butterfree. Chansey also did pretty well against taunters, after a Switcheroo followed by a Taunt, Chansey can switch in, outspeed the opponent to get to Toxic and then Seismic Toss. Butterfree @ Leftovers Compoundeyes, Modest 204 HP, 4 Def, 212 SpA, 84 Spe Stats: 161, 58, 71, 139, 100, 101 ~Sleep Powder ~Quiver Dance ~Substitute ~Bug Buzz Back in the Battle Castle with my Smeargle-Breloom streak I realised that if you have a 100% accurate sleep move and you’re faster than the opponent then you’re almost guaranteed to win, so that’s basically how I got to this. Sleep Powder first turn, use Substitute and Quiver Dance when the opponent is asleep and make sure to always have a Substitute up. Sleep Powder was surprisingly accurate it missed 6 times in my streak, since I use Sleep powder about 5 times per battle that’s an accuracy of 99% that I had, and Butterfree only fainted twice because of a miss but Chansey was able to take the victory both times. The HP lets me rotate between Substitute and Sleep Powder for the most amount of turns, in case I get unlucky and the opponent wakes up on the second turn too many times. The speed lets me feel safe to knock out a dangerous opponent after 2 Quiver Dances, with 202 Speed Butterfree outspeeds all 130 base speed Pokémon. Dangerous opponents are Pokémon that will make me lose the battle if Sleep Powder happens to miss. Quiver Dance and Charm work great together, boosting Butterfree’s defences to let my Substitutes survive more than one attack. Bug Buzz is the best move Butterfree gets and it’s much better than having Signal beam just for Soundproof Pokémon, which I can Sleep Powder then switch to Chansey. After 6 Quiver Dances Butterfree OHKOs almost everything that doesn’t resist it, pretty much 50% of Pokémon do resist it though so if the opponents 2nd Pokémon is resistant I start with Sleep Powder. I also Sleep Powder if the Pokémon might have Sturdy or Focus Sash and I only Sleep Powder the last opponent if it might have something like Rock blast or if they can survive more than 2 Bug Buzzes. After set up the only thing Butterfree sometimes has trouble with is the Chandelure with leftovers and Calm Mind, but Chandelure will usually use Will-o-wisp instead of setting up. Butterfree’s low defense is actually an advantage against physical Taunters, if I don’t Charm them things that think they can OHKO Butterfree will rather attack the Substitute than Taunt How I lost: The opponent sends out Muk, I’ve never faced a Sticky Hold Pokémon before so I didn’t think it might have it, so I Switcheroo, it fails and Muk KOs with Gunk Shot, I send out Chansey and Minimize and KO it, opponent sends out Lickilicky, just before I KO it it uses Explosion, it hits and gets a CH and Chansey faints. I send out Butterfree and the opponent sends out Starmie, Starmie uses Ice Beam, Butterfree freezes, frozen solid and Starmie KOs with Ice Beam. The team wasn’t a serious attempt but it did surprisingly well. It’s definitely the most fun team I’ve used and the battles are really interesting and stressful sometimes, which I really enjoyed. And sweeping with a Butterfree is just an awesome feeling! |
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Feb 10th, 2012, 12:47:26 AM
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#1364 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 790
Australia
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Quote:
But yeah Cloyster is brilliant, though if I were to try it again I would have to change my team because the one I used back then is terribly weak to fighting types. Maybe later. @ Pikiwyn: Wow, Full Incense Switcheroo Whimsicott is a really good idea (too bad Switcheroo is illegal with most of Whimsicott's other good egg moves, like Memento). That's why Whimsicott is awesome, because it can make almost any set up sweeper work effectively! |
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Feb 10th, 2012, 12:57:13 AM
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#1365 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,053
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Good job on that original team Pikiwyn! Must have been fun trying out
When I read the first line of your post (i.e. Whimsicott @ Full Incense), I immediately though of my Arbok-Smeargle-Espeon team (Arbok setting up for Smeargle to Spore and BP to Espeon for sweep). I think I might have to try Switcheroo Whimsicott @ Full Incense with the Smeargle-Espeon combo to see if something interesting comes up. Without Arbok's Gastro Acid though, insomnia might be a potential problem... I'll see. O yeah, Compoundeyes Sleep Powder is 75% * 1.3 = 97%. |
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Feb 10th, 2012, 1:36:54 AM
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#1366 |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 53
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@ atsync: Whimsicott's great, it's the best crippler, followed by Shuckle imo. In my team i didn't need Memento though, but yeah Switcheroo isn't compatable with much.
@ Chinese Dood: I thought the same thing, I tried a Sableye, Smeargle, Xatu team, i don't have a DW Espeon but with Espeon Toxic Spikes kills the team anyway. I used Sableye because I wanted to try out Torment with a Spore, Substitute, Protect, BP Smeargle. That way I could Torment Taunters and Roar or Whirlwind and then use Protect every other turn when they try to Taunt/Roar. Sableye had Low Sweep to lower the Speed of Taunters and in case the opponent uses U turn. Sableye can survive almost any hit so I could Flash the opponent atleast once too. Smeargle could set up pretty easily against Insomnia as well with its moveset. It didn't go too well though the battles were too long and I'd lose focus and make stupid mistakes. 86 was my highest streak. The weird thing about Compoundeyes Sleep Powder was that in my previous attempts Sleep Powder would miss about once every 50 battles, about 1/250 times maybe i just got REALLY lucky. |
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Feb 10th, 2012, 3:37:12 AM
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#1367 |
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Never give up!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,070
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Pikiwyn the Shuckle master, that´s an amazing team. I´ve wanted to use a Butterfree for a long time now, but there´s just too many things to try out and I already have way too many Pokémon ready...I always try to use stuff I breed though, if only to lose after a few sets of 7.
So glad there´s a Butterfree record now, also great idea with giving the oponent an item to always go last...now I feel dumb because I forgot about Full Incense despite Subway sets using it...I´d like to use a Trick-Lagging Tail Sableye (I´ve bred 3 Sableye already), but apparently Lagging Tail can only be found in the Dream Island Forest area...I have yet to come across it. Basically, Full Incense does the same. Lol and Whimsicott has way too many moveset options... EDIT: lol I don´t know why my research was that bad...but wild Slowpoke hold Lagging Tails, also Lickitung...go me
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Black & White Battle Subway Records Platinum/HG/SS Battle Frontier and DP Battle Tower Records DP Battle Tower Records (Smogon's Greatest Hits) Emerald Battle Frontier Max Stats Pokemon Database Battle Subway Super Singles record: 623 - Cloyster, Garchomp, Suicune |
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Feb 10th, 2012, 6:29:34 AM
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#1368 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 790
Australia
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Oh dear. I was using the Accelgor and Infernape duo I posted about earlier with Specs Rotom-W and Occa Berry Scizor in back and I lost at battle 65. Accelgor suicided to take down Thundurus. Next turn I protect against Scizor (I thought that Moltres would Fire Blast me) and had Infernape Flare Blitz Cresselia. It missed (Brightpowder) and then Moltres, instead of using a fire move, chose to Power Herb Sky Attack Infernape to hell! In the end, Rotom-W couldn't take down Heatran and Cresselia by itself...
Can't really see myself getting much further than this anyway. Accelgor was cool but honestly all it does most of the time is change a 4 on 4 battle into a 3 on 3 one. However, I was impressed by Rotom-W teamed with Infernape. It reminded me of CptObvious's streak with Rotom-W + Blaziken. Although that team caused a lot of controversy when it was posted, I can at least see how Rotom-W could work when paired with a fire/fighting type. Actually, Rotom-W is pretty beastly with Choice Specs thanks to its awesome STABs and it is still the best counter to water teams ever. If only Rotom-W had a bit more speed/bulk... Oh and I started a new singles streak with Whimsicott-Bisharp-Dragonite... and I lost at the first battle hahahahahaha. Yeah I played badly against Hippowdon 1 who was being a bitch and constantly changing around using its offensive moves and Whirlwind, and then Dragonite was not set up against QC Glaceon (the QC DID activate but it wouldn't have mattered anyway since it killed through Multiscale). The battle has convinced me to dump Low Sweep for Iron Head (it barely did 50% to Hippowdon at 6+ and it just isn't powerful enough). Sure the coverage is worse but it usually doesn't matter at 6+ anyway, and it would also help against Spiritomb and Dusknoir. |
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Feb 10th, 2012, 9:59:37 AM
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#1369 |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 53
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@ Peterko: Thanks! Also for your Cloyster have you considered Dive over Razor Shell? It has better power and accuracy and the only downside I can think of is the opponent using Curse while you Dive.
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Feb 10th, 2012, 12:29:47 PM
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#1370 |
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 178
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Great streak there Pikiwyn and a epic idea :)
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Feb 10th, 2012, 6:10:10 PM
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#1371 |
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Never give up!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,070
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Well, FUCK!
172 still stands as the longest/highest Cloyster streak... I lost in the same ... ... ... set of seven (169-175) as last time and it was yet another stupid Thunderbolt hax. The first four Thunderbolts in the game were paralyze-paralyze-normal hit-CH. #170 vs Pilot Artemas - Drifblim, Braviary, Togekiss: 1. Drifblim used Thunderbolt, Cloy paralyzed, Cloy Shell Smash. 2. Drifblim used Shadow Ball, Cloy fainted. - my Cune 3. Drifblim used Thunderbolt, Cune paralyzed, Cune Sub. 4. Drifblim used Thunderbolt, Sub broke, Cune CM. 5. Drifblim used Thunderbolt, CH, Cune fainted. - my Chomp 6. Chomp used Outrage, Drifblim used Icy Wind. 7. Chomp used Outrage, Drifblim fainted, Chomp confused. - foe Braviary 8. Chomp used Outrage, Braviary 15% left, Braviary used Brave Bird, Chomp fainted. 0-2 Seriously? I didn´t know whether to CM or Sub with Cune first because I didn´t know if it was set 3 or 4, set 4 would maybe go for Hypnosis... At least kill me at 174 stupid AI! Why didn´t I just Icicle Spear the shit out of Drifblim turn 1? Maybe because I had yet to lose a Pokémon against a Pilot...also didn´t check the movesets, set 1 is set up bait, sets 234 probably all go for the killing Bolt, damn I should´ve switched in Chomp then Cune to see what set it is... I can´t change that now, too late. I really hate myself now, I had only like 1 troublesome battle until then...I felt something was coming when Muk 4 just Exploded on me turn 1 at #169 as I switched in Chomp (which actually survived it with like 30 HP)... I should stop playing this game, once and for all, it clearly hates me...lol I´m such a sore loser.
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Black & White Battle Subway Records Platinum/HG/SS Battle Frontier and DP Battle Tower Records DP Battle Tower Records (Smogon's Greatest Hits) Emerald Battle Frontier Max Stats Pokemon Database Battle Subway Super Singles record: 623 - Cloyster, Garchomp, Suicune |
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Feb 11th, 2012, 2:13:44 AM
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#1372 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,053
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Hm, so, I haven't really played any pokemon ever since my 276 streak. I played a bit today, not a whole lot. I was just using my Stoutland-Dragonite-Volcarona team since I didn't come out with anything new yet that didn't require me to rebreed a whole bunch of things... and I didn't feel like breeding today.
Anyway, this one battle was interesting... Opponent's lead was Life orb Excadrill. When Stoutland fainted, Excadrill was at -6 Accuracy -5 Attack. Dragonite comes in and DD as Excadrill uses a few Aerial Aces which doesn't break Dnite's Multiscale after leftovers (I didn't sub). Then all of a sudden (on Dnite's 5th DD), it uses Rockslide and hits! Then it proceeds to keep using Aerial Ace as Dragonite got its last DD in, sub up, roosted and then swept the team. So, yeah, it just seems like the AI knows when that rockslide was going to hit even at -6 accuracy (which is about 30% chance to hit I think?), and then used it at the right time. Could be just coincidence of course! |
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Feb 11th, 2012, 5:02:12 AM
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#1373 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 790
Australia
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Can someone explain the following to me?
I was in singles (I'm now using Darmanitan/Rotom-W/Metagross because it is way faster than Whimsicott/Bisharp/Dragonite). I had my Rotom-W out against Landorus 1. It used Smack Down while I Hydro Pumped to activate its sash. I expected Earthquake or Bulldoze the next turn since I was in kill range, but it decided to use Smack Down again (allowing me to kill it). Can anyone think of a reason why it would do that? I mean, I'm not complaining because it made for a much easier win, but I'm still curious (and no, the second Smack Down wasn't a crit). Is it possible that it wasn't aware that I was vulnerable to ground moves or something? Or is this just another example of the AIs occasional non-sensical move choices? |
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Feb 11th, 2012, 9:06:39 AM
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#1374 |
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 250
Manila, Philippines
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Well it seems to know when to ignore my levitate when it had mold breaker...
...and Dugtrio did use EQ on my roosting Skarm before, so I guess it knows Rotom's ability and doesn't take into account that it was smacked down 1 turn ago. Or maybe you still had another guy and the CPU was trying its random "prediction" last hits...
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"Trying to recapture the glory days of Sinnoh Battle Tower on the subways of Unova since December 2011." |
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Feb 11th, 2012, 6:26:58 PM
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#1375 |
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Never give up!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,070
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I dealt with the #173 and #170 losses with my Cloyster team, but not by taking a break from the Subway.
I simply am not the kind to give up, no matter what. Today, I played excessively, all day long (also while watching alpine skiing, davis cup and ski jumping, so it took longer as I wasn´t always paying attention)...and beat #172 once and for all... ...only to lose battle #180 to TrickSpecs Latias that got a CH DM with its last PP against the incoming Suicune, that was supposed to set up. #180 vs Veteran Leron - Latias, Virizion, Moltres: 1. Latias Trick Specs-Sash, Cloy Shell Smash. 2. Switched out Cloy, Chomp in, Latias Thunderbolt, Chomp unaffected. 3. Switch out Chomp, Cloy in, Latias Draco Meteor 1, Cloy fainted. - Chomp in 4. Switched out Chomp, Cune in, Latias Draco Meteor 2-3, Cune avoided. 5. Switched out Cune, Chomp in, Latias Draco Meteor 4, Chomp lives with around 40 HP. 6. Switched out Chomp, Cune in, Latias Draco Meteor 5, CH, Cune fainted. - Chomp in 7. Chomp Outrage, Latias Sash, Latias Psychic. 8. Chomp Outrage, Latias fainted, Chomp confused. - foe Virizion 9. Chomp Outrage, 60%, Virizion Leaf Blade, Chomp fainted. 0-2 I didn´t even know there was a TrickSpecs Latias so I Shell Smashed, but whatever (from my exp, what has Draco Meteor, uses Draco Meteor, maybe this was the first time I faced set 3). I should´ve just stopped after 175 was done, because the 169-175 set of seven was really something else, yet again. But of course, that CH was just evil...seeing the AI still had Virizion, there still was the chance of me losing if it got a CH Leaf Blade after breaking my Sub...what if... I´ve had more bad luck during this streak, about 3 paralyzing electric attacks turn 1, some turn 1 flinches (about 3) and one really close battle around 115 when I was a coinflip away from losing, had Cune hurt itself in confusion while waking up (low health) against Esca 4 (dmg to itself + Iron Head would´ve finished it off)...Cune won that battle. Another not so good one was in the infamous 169-175 set of seven, faced Palm´s Regice 4 and I PP wasted Blizzard and Focus Blast and felt smart when I wanted to switch out Chomp and bring in Cloyster to the predicted AI switch...Regice stayed with Thunder Wave and Thunder against Chomp, obviously paralyzing the incoming Cloyster...afterwards I Quaked Regice away (it still stayed) and foe brought Salamence - sacrificed Cloyster, Outraged Salamence and last Poké was Krook that almost killed Chomp with Dark Gem Crunch (Chomp got hit by Focus Blast turn 1), Chomp finished in 2 hits. Well, now I own the longest Cloyster streak, if only by 7 (don´t know if I should be happy or cry)...the Subway sure likes to troll me, hard. Black Battle Subway Super Singles streaks: 49, 172, 169, 179 Team: Cloyster, Garchomp, Suicune
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Black & White Battle Subway Records Platinum/HG/SS Battle Frontier and DP Battle Tower Records DP Battle Tower Records (Smogon's Greatest Hits) Emerald Battle Frontier Max Stats Pokemon Database Battle Subway Super Singles record: 623 - Cloyster, Garchomp, Suicune |
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