(Data) State of the Game - 4/22/2011

[Darkamber8828]

Tort, combo training looks cool. Kinda like linking in pmd.

Acklow, the latter idea is what I had in mind, and honestly seems like the same thing, but less complicated.

Anyway,

Arenas: The Match Seeker is expected to provide an Arena for battle, however they may forfeit this right to the opponent in exchange for attacking second. Arenas have the most far-reaching consequences for a match and can have any attribute the designer wishes, including structural move restrictions. It is assumed that when a Challenger accepts a Seeker's challenge, they agree to the Arena and any of its inherent traits/restrictions/effects. Arenas can be simple or complex.

Don't seekers usually go second? Does that mean they send out a poke second?

[Objection]

Originally Posted by Fat Seven Deadly Sins

Command: Dodge - Reduces an incoming attack’s accuracy by (User’s Speed - Opponent’s Speed) / 5. In Trick Room, the effect is reversed- An incoming attack’s accuracy is reduced by ((User’s Speed - Opponent’s Speed) * -1) / 5. This command costs 5 Energy.

Interestingly, if a slower pokemon uses the dodge command outside of Trick Room, according to the formula it actually makes the attack more accurate. For example, a base 50 tries to dodge a base 70's attack. (50 - 70) / 5 = -20 / 5 = -4, so the attack's accuracy is reduced by -4% (ie, increased by 4%). Unless I've misunderstood something ...

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Obviously, said slow Pokemon would never opt to use Dodge outside of TR.

[Gerard]

I want to ask, is there any possibility to "power-up" the habilities that require to swich, that's because swiching is really restricted as it is, like making natural cure as a worst shed skin or cure yourself when entering your habitat (like starmie getting into water), or regeneration so it regenerate 1 hp per action (worst than both poison heal and dry skin in rain), since swich=KO makes their habilities useless (this could also only be aplied when those rues are inforced)

[Rediamond]

Originally Posted by Fat Gerard

I want to ask, is there any possibility to "power-up" the habilities that require to swich, that's because swiching is really restricted as it is, like making natural cure as a worst shed skin or cure yourself when entering your habitat (like starmie getting into water), or regeneration so it regenerate 1 hp per action (worst than both poison heal and dry skin in rain), since swich=KO makes their habilities useless (this could also only be aplied when those rues are inforced)

I can't see why we don't already do something like that. Every move had a switch=KO function, so it only makes sense.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Objection

Interestingly, if a slower pokemon uses the dodge command outside of Trick Room, according to the formula it actually makes the attack more accurate. For example, a base 50 tries to dodge a base 70's attack. (50 - 70) / 5 = -20 / 5 = -4, so the attack's accuracy is reduced by -4% (ie, increased by 4%). Unless I've misunderstood something ...

Yes, that's what is supposed to happen. It could be floored at the attack's original accuracy, but again, slow Pokemon shouldn't try to dodge outside of Trick Room.


Back to Speed Natures:

I think the problem last time is that the speed hindering natures got too much of a shaft in the calculation. Instead I think we should keep the formula for the accuracy increase in the last proposal (New Base Speed^2/100), and make the -Speed nature a flat -10 Evasion drop. This keeps it from being advantageous for a slow Pokemon to sacrifice a small portion of its offense or defense for a big accuracy boost while not completely shafting slow Pokemon that want to use a negative speed nature to boost Gyro Ball or whatever.

Reworking the ** system teminology:

I didn't realize it would be this unwieldy over time, so I'm thinking instead of using **s we should just use flat out ranking categories, as explained below:

Rank 1: 0-25; 80 HP
Rank 2: 26-60; 90 HP
Rank 3: 61-95; 100 HP
Rank 4: 96-120; 110 HP
Rank 5: 121-140; 120 HP
Rank 6: 141-160; 125 HP
Rank 7: 161-180; 130 HP
Rank 8: 181-200; 135 HP
Rank 9: 201+; 140 HP

The way Natures work is you would just add or subtract 1 to your Rank with a (+) or (-) sign to indicate:

Eg.

Steelix:
Nature: Brave

HP: 100
Attack: Rank 4 (+)
Defense: Rank 8
SpA: Rank 2
SpD: Rank 3
Speed: 26 (30 / 1.15) (-)

Shuckle:
Nature: Adamant

HP: 80
Attack: Rank 2 (+)
Defense: Rank 9
SpA: Rank 0 (-)
SpD: Rank 9
Spe: 5

This won't affect the damage calculator in any way, since it already uses base stats to determine things, it just makes it easier, and I can simply do a find/replace on the stats system to change it.

[Objection]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Reworking the ** system teminology:

I didn't realize it would be this unwieldy over time, so I'm thinking instead of using **s we should just use flat out ranking categories, as explained below:

Rank 1: 0-25; 80 HP
Rank 2: 26-60; 90 HP
Rank 3: 61-95; 100 HP
Rank 4: 96-120; 110 HP
Rank 5: 121-140; 120 HP
Rank 6: 141-160; 125 HP
Rank 7: 161-180; 130 HP
Rank 8: 181-200; 135 HP
Rank 9: 201+; 140 HP

This won't affect the damage calculator in any way, since it already uses base stats to determine things, it just makes it easier, and I can simply do a find/replace on the stats system to change it.

100% support. Until recently I couldn't tell from the star system whether a Modest Chandelure with ***** (+2) (+) meant it had 7 star special attack or 8 star special attack, while at the same time having long lines of stars can make them hard to read from just a quick glance.

[Deck Knight]

STAB changes were brought up last time around. I think we could use a different kind of system for it. Right now its somewhat arbitrary. Instead we'll keep it away from attack lists with reduced energy costs and more towards other intangibles. Granted there is more in the full descriptions, but nonetheless.

Here are the current benefits summaries:

Bug

---

Bug:

Summary: Bug STAB; Anger Powder, Poison Powder, Sleep Powder, Solarbeam, Spore, Stun Spore, Roost have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Dark

---

Dark:

Summary: Dark STAB; Immunity to all telepathic and telekinetic attacks, better performance in all darkened and especially twilight conditions. Can use more devious Dark-type attacks while attracted. Revenge and Vengeance have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Dragon

---

Dragon:

Summary: Dragon STAB; Roar has have Energy Cost reduced by one (1). (Dragonite line can breathe underwater.)

Electric

---

Electric:

Summary: Electric STAB; 50% reduction in paralysis chance from other electrical attacks, perfect accuracy and 30% chance of Protect breaking Thunder during Rain.

Fighting

---

Fighting:

Summary: Fighting STAB; ignore weight restrictions of throwing/grappling moves, Meditate and Cheer Up have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Fire

---

Fire:

Summary: Fire STAB; immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance, emit a low glow in dark places, takes additional damage if active open flames are exposed to a water attack. Solarbeam has Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Flying

---

Flying:

Summary: Flying STAB; immunity to Ground attacks outside extremely odd circumstances even for ground-based flying Pokemon, Heat Wave, Icy Wind, Ominous Wind, Silver Wind, Twister, Whirlwind have have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Ghost

---

Ghost:

Summary: Ghost STAB; brief intangibility that nullifies Normal and Fighting-type attacks, Pain Split, Psychic, Sucker Punch, Telekinesis, Trick, and Will-o-Wisp have Energy Cost reduced by one (1). (Gengar line and pure Ghosts only: moving through walls.)

Grass

---

Grass:

Summary: Grass STAB; Immunity to Leech Seed, Growth, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Nature Power, Sunny Day, Sweet Scent, and Swords Dance have have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Ground

---

Ground:

Summary: Ground STAB; Immune to all electrical attacks, Evasive Digging reduced from 3 per action Energy Cost to 2 per action, superior senses in darkened cave surroundings. Knock Down, Rock Slide, Sandstorm, and Stealth Rock have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Ice

---

Ice:

Summary: Ice STAB; immune to freezing, no vision loss or damage in Hail, perfectly accurate and 30% Protect breaking Blizzard in Hail, Hail heals burns on Ice-typed Pokemon. (Glalie/Froslass line, Regice, Glaceon, Vanilluxe line, Beartic line and Furijio ONLY: immunity to Sheer Cold, removal of Boiling water's Burn effect, and 50% reduction in burn chance from Fire moves.)

Normal

---

Normal:

Summary: Normal STAB; Bite, Claw Sharpen, Crunch, Dig, Double Kick, Hammer Arm, Iron Tail, Rain Dance, Rock Smash, Shadow Claw, Sunny Day, Wild Charge have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Poison

---

Poison:

Summary: Poison STAB; immunity to Poison/Toxic, see and breath through smog/smokescreens uninhibited. Dasutodasu, Muk, and Weezing inflict Toxic Poisoning with Solid/Liquid/Gaseous Poison attacks (respectively), Wrap, Haze, and Glare have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Psychic

---

Psychic:

Summary: Psychic STAB; less susceptible to blinding, more susceptible to sound-based assaults as far as locking on with Psychic attacks, can lift and throw opponents with Psychic attacks regardless of weight difference, Disable, Focus Blast and Recover have Energy Cost reduced by one (1). Psychic-type attacks are not godlike and cannot be used as a catchall for Disabling, Binding, and redirecting opposing attacks.

Rock

---

Rock:

Summary: Rock STAB; Take 2 less damage from all special attacks during Sandstorm, Earth Power, Earthquake and Magnitude have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Steel

---

Steel:

Summary: Steel STAB; Immune to Sandstorm, highly insusceptible to toxic attacks, but can be corroded specifically by Acid and Acid Bomb, can be magnetized.

Water

---

Water:

Summary: Water STAB; Can breathe and have excellent mobility when underwater, are less capable on land unless they are entirely amphibious. Splash and Ice Moves have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Here's what we could do with them:

New terminology:

Not Losing Focus: In addition to increase the Base Attack Power of attacks by 3 and Reducing Energy cost by one, certain STABs may allow certain moves to keep their focus in all conditions, except when struck by a multi-hit attack (which always disrupt these moves).

There are three broad categories:

Partial trapping moves: Pokemon will have a much easier time using commands that don't use the appendages sourced in these attacks or else will be able to maintain their mental focus while using other attacks. This effect applies to Bind, Fire Spin, Clamp, Magma Storm, Sand Tomb, Whirlpool, and Wrap.

Uncontrollable Attacks: Pokemon will not be subject to the disruption of Petal Dance, Outrage, and Thrash when hit by moves with greater than 12 Base Power.

Overwhelming Attacks: Pokemon will not be sluggish after using these super-powerful attacks and will be able to follow-up with an attack of any power afterward. This effect applies to Blast Burn, Frenzy Plant, Giga Impact, Hydro Cannon, Hyper Beam, Roar of Time, and Rock Wrecker.

Bug

---

Bug:

Summary: Bug STAB; More mobility in dense brush or forest conditions. Gain an extra guaranteed attack on multi-hit moves.

Dark

---

Dark:

Summary: Dark STAB; Immunity to all telepathic and telekinetic attacks, better performance in all darkened and especially twilight conditions. Can use more devious Dark-type attacks while attracted.

Dragon

---

Dragon:

Summary: Dragon STAB; More in touch with legendary or special auras in arenas. Able to use Hyper Beam and Giga Impact without losing focus.

Electric

---

Electric:

Summary: Electric STAB; 50% reduction in paralysis chance from other electrical attacks, perfect accuracy and 30% chance of Protect breaking Thunder during Rain.

Fighting

---

Fighting:

Summary: Fighting STAB; ignore weight restrictions of throwing/grappling moves. Maintain better focus in close quarters.

Fire

---

Fire:

Summary: Fire STAB; immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance, emit a low glow in dark places, takes additional damage if active open flames are exposed to a water attack.

Flying

---

Flying:

Summary: Flying STAB; immunity to Ground attacks outside extremely odd circumstances even for ground-based flying Pokemon. Enhanced aerial mobility.

Ghost

---

Ghost:

Summary: Ghost STAB; brief intangibility that nullifies Normal and Fighting-type attacks. Can move through walls for a brief period of time but must remain in motion. Can see in low light, inside dark buildings, and do not have reduced visibility from haze.

Grass

---

Grass:

Summary: Grass STAB; Immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming "powder" attacks. More mobile in areas with strong natural light sources. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus.

Ground

---

Ground:

Summary: Ground STAB; Immune to all electrical attacks, can Dig through almost any substance, Evasive Digging reduced from 3 per action Energy Cost to 2 per action, superior senses in darkened cave surroundings.

Ice

---

Ice:

Summary: Ice STAB; immune to freezing and Sheer Cold, no vision loss or damage in Hail or snowstorm conditions, perfectly accurate and 30% Protect breaking Blizzard in Hail.

Normal

---

Normal:

Summary: Normal STAB; adapt comfortably to any surrounding after 3 actions. Able to use Outrage without losing focus.

Poison

---

Poison:

Summary: Poison STAB; immunity to Poison/Toxic, see and breath through smog/smokescreens/haze uninhibited. Able to use Wrap or Bind attacks without losing focus.

Psychic

---

Psychic:

Summary: Psychic STAB; less susceptible to blinding, more susceptible to sound-based assaults as far as locking on with Psychic attacks, can lift and throw opponents with Psychic attacks regardless of weight difference. Psychic-type attacks are not godlike and cannot be used as a catchall for Disabling, Binding, and redirecting opposing attacks.

Rock

---

Rock:

Summary: Rock STAB; Take 2 less damage from all special attacks during Sandstorm. Can use Sand Tomb without losing focus.

Steel

---

Steel:

Summary: Steel STAB; Immune to Sandstorm, highly insusceptible to toxic attacks, but can be corroded specifically by Acid and Acid Bomb, can be magnetized.

Water

---

Water:

Summary: Water STAB; Can breathe and have excellent mobility when underwater, are less capable on land unless they are entirely amphibious. Can use Ice moves without losing focus.

[Fire Blast]

New proposal time:

I was recently in a battle where my pokemon was very low on energy. i decided to Chill, but I soon realized the energy gained was only enough to use approximately two attacks. So the simple solution would be to buff chills. However, that would cause them to become to powerful/helpful and that wouldn't be good. So I thought that they should come with a drawback. I think that there should be 3 levels of chills, the higher level you go, the more energy it heals, but you take more damage from incoming attacks. In a realistic point of view, this makes sense. For example a pokemon can chill by simply not attacking. This heals energy by the regular amount and the pokemon is alert enough in the battle to avoid taking extra damage. However, on the other end of the spectrum, if a pokemon is so exhausted that it has to lie down, it will heal more energy, but will cause more damage loss for obvious reasons.

Levels

---

Level 1 / Not Attacking: Regular Chill, heals 12% of energy, no extra damage

Level 2 / Sitting Down: Heals 18% energy, +3 damage towards an incoming attack

Level 3 / Lying Down: Heals 25% energy, +6 damage towards an incoming attack

I haven't received much feedback, and I think this is a logical change. Opinions?

[Deck Knight]

RE: Chills:

Chills should be a specific command with only one level. Otherwise people will just use the strongest chill they can any time an opponent uses a non-attacking (or interim between 2 strong attacks) action.

[Objection]

The new STAB proposals are looking pretty good, but there is some ambiguity. Specifically, when you say "Can use type X moves without losing focus", what exactly would that mean? Same thing with Normal adapting to surroundings after 3 actions.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Objection

The new STAB proposals are looking pretty good, but there is some ambiguity. Specifically, when you say "Can use type X moves without losing focus", what exactly would that mean? Same thing with Normal adapting to surroundings after 3 actions.

Moves like Bind, Sand Tomb, etc. revolve around the pokemon keeping its focus while using them. A Pokemon ordinarily keeps focus while using any of its STAB moves. In these cases it would help the pokemon keep such a lock while allowing them to execute other moves effectively.

Normal types specifically would have similar performance to typed counterparts (e.g. Darks in dark spaces, fighters in close quarters) after the first round. Perhaps not to the same degree that comes with the type, but enough to not be seriously hampered by a dark cave or being in an aquatic environment.

[Banryu]

So essentially, the new STAB business removes energy bonuses form the moves for each type. :0

...I dunno how I feel about that. I kind of liked that there were those things, since it feels like it's easy to run out of energy in the first place... though really... I don't have a lot of actual reason to back this up at the moment, to be perfectly honest...

....
....so, um... what to people think of my range suggestion?

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Banryu

So essentially, the new STAB business removes energy bonuses form the moves for each type. :0

It does for all the non-STAB moves that were listed. STAB moves still enjoy the energy reduction.

...I dunno how I feel about that. I kind of liked that there were those things, since it feels like it's easy to run out of energy in the first place... though really... I don't have a lot of actual reason to back this up at the moment, to be perfectly honest...

....
....so, um... what to people think of my range suggestion?

The problem with range is that it exists, but it's hard to codify. If your PZ is indeed jetting away with Agility and attacking from a distance, Conkeldurr should not be able to just Hammer Arm it from there. Most like however, the other trainer will ask it to close the gap while issuing some mid-level attack, or else use something like Rock Smash or Rock Throw (level-up move) to create some obstacles.

It's just a pretty bad matchup in general. Worse yet they might just Bide in your face, and you won't have much choice since Bide can be used at a distance. So yes, without Psychic the gun and run strategy is the best bet (abuse the fact PZ is floaty as well).

But you covered a lot of that. Where do we draw the line though? For example, Conkldurr is slow as hell so it shouldn't be able to Hammer Arm something 20 feet away. A Metagross with an Agility under its belt should have no problem with that distance though, even using the same attack. Heck, even a Rhyperior with Rock Polish should be able to handle it despite still being slower than PZ in general.

Now granted, just using a speed booster shouldn't be the be-all end-all. If PZ is 50 feet away for some reason (good luck hitting from that distance by the same token though) than maybe Agility Meta hits with Hammer Arm, but certainly not RP Rhyperior.

So really, a codified range for an attack doesn't help. Speed boosts in particular completely screw up the notion of attack ranges. That and relative speeds. Not that it would have a reason to since Weavile isn't a sturdy big hitter, but trying to Agility away from a Weavile won't be efective in stopping its Pursuit or Ice Shard from connecting, and its regular attacks should hit too if its within say a 5 ft proximity before the Agility.

[Banryu]

So what you're saying is that range is a recognized factor of battles, but not an officially-identifiable one... however, it should still be considered as a factor in battles, correct?

Perhaps this, like the thing I brought up with the entry hazards, should be a little more clearly mentioned so that we don't have things like Timburr Drain Punching my Feebas from across the arena (when Feebas is in motion, considerably faster, AND has Swift Swim active I might add). This is the result of my order, and clearly is not the outcome I intended (even though it technically did go according to plan). I don't blame DA for his reffing decision, as it isn't really explicitly (or implicitly, to my knowledge) stated anywhere that range IS a factor... but it needs to be made clear that it is, I think.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Banryu

So what you're saying is that range is a recognized factor of battles, but not an officially-identifiable one... however, it should still be considered as a factor in battles, correct?

Perhaps this, like the thing I brought up with the entry hazards, should be a little more clearly mentioned so that we don't have things like Timburr Drain Punching my Feebas from across the arena (when Feebas is in motion, considerably faster, AND has Swift Swim active I might add). This is the result of my order, and clearly is not the outcome I intended (even though it technically did go according to plan). I don't blame DA for his reffing decision, as it isn't really explicitly (or implicitly, to my knowledge) stated anywhere that range IS a factor... but it needs to be made clear that it is, I think.

Swift Swim only activates during Rain, and Feebas has 80 Spe compared to Timburr's 35. while placement could have been a little better, the fact the center water area is only 3 feet around and Timburr was near it in one of the quadrants, it is not a terrible stretch of the imagination to reach a non-speed boosted Feebas that wasn't ordered to evade (and indeed, just releases a Haze that would reveal its general location anyway). I don't see the problem in that particular example.

[Banryu]

'Swift Swim', by its name and nature, seems to suggest that the Pokemon possessing it would move faster in Water, and not just in Rain alone. :0 That was what I asssumed.

Also, Timburr was not supposed to be near it in one of the quadrants, as I specifically worded my orders for Feebas to take a path that did NOT go by Timburr:

Originally Posted by Fat Banryu

"Alright kids, you're doing just fine. Here's what we do... Phoebus, I want you to swim swiftly through the channels to get behind Frozo, meanwhile release an obscuring Haze throughout the area... and take a route that doesn't go by quadrant 1, Hurrdurr won't be able to hit you from that far away.

Furthermore, I also seem to recall that the definition of Haze says it 'greatly reduces the visibility for all Pokemon', which ought, theoretically, to make Feebas harder to locate and consequently punch. I could perhaps have specified further by saying exactly WHAT route Feebas was to take to avoid being in range of Timburr's physical attacks, but the intent was undeniably there.

Swift Swim active or not, this does demonstrate what I'm trying to demonstrate... I'm not saying I want it changed or anything, what's done is done, but when things like this are specifically ordered, it should be taken into account in reffing in the future, as it was for the match Tortferngatr posted on the topic.

[Gerard]

Just what to say that for that logic chlorophyll would always be active in outside battles (unless it's night or cloudy)

Still, are the abilities that require to switch useless when switch=KO or are they gonna have some extra effect for their restricted chance of being used

[QUOTE]is there any possibility to "power-up" the habilities that require to swich, that's because swiching is really restricted as it is, like regeneration so it regenerate 1 hp per action (worst than both poison heal and dry skin in rain), since switch=KO makes their habilities useless (this could also only be aplied when those rues are inforced) [/QUOTE

Edit: OK, Regeneration is the only ability which really needs some love (still this is an ability i think should be a little more usefull)

[Objection]

I know that Natural Cure already has an effect for switch=KO battles: it removes all status effects 6 actions after the pokemon gets hit by one. Regenerator doesn't have anything like that though, so ...

[zarator]

Ghost is the only STAB which gives benefits only to Pokémon who sports a pure type (a.k.a. pure Ghosts - plus Gengar line). Can anyone explain me this?

[Rediamond]

Because Possession Is extremely annoying, but canon, so it was only given to pure ghosts and Pokemon who could use that kind of stuff in the anime.

[Its_A_Random]

On the subject of Ghosts, shouldn't Rotom be able to pass through walls too? I mean, it can possess something like a Washing Machine, but it can't pass through walls, despite being effectively plasma.

[Gerard]

Shouldn't most ghosts (and some psyquics) be able to float (levitate), since they are always foating around (bar sableye, golurk and spiritomb)

PS: I know that in levitate there's a list of pokes that can do this but not a lot of ghosts are included)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Wouldn't it make sense for Rotom to also possess that quality, since it has the ability to inhabit (and thus pass through) solid objects?

EDIT: ninja'd =(

[zarator]

Originally Posted by Fat Rediamond

Because Possession Is extremely annoying, but canon, so it was only given to pure ghosts and Pokemon who could use that kind of stuff in the anime.

Being able to pass through walls is not equal to Possession. I don't see why having all ghost being able to go through walls would be so much "broken". And even if it actually was, couldn't we simply add some kind of advantage to the Ghost type besides passing through walls which could be shared by all Ghosts (regardless of whether they have a secondary type or not)?