[on site] DP Little Cup Analysis

[Thorns]

Introduction
Little Cup spawned its roots in Pokemon Stadium 2. The idea was that you bred to achieve the perfect baby Pokemon to battle. Mekkah reintroduced this for Advance. And now Little Cup is back for the 4th Generation. Also, it should be known that Little Cup is all about speed. The metagame is filled with fast Pokemon and revenge killers.

Rules
- Sleep Clause
- Only Pokemon hatched from eggs are eligible.
- Eligible Pokemon must be able to evolve, and be the first in an evolution chain.
- Item Clause is in effect.
- All Pokemon used MUST be Lv5.
- Selfdestruct Clause is on.
- Sonicboom and Dragon Rage are banned.
- Evasion/accuracy moves are NOT allowed.
- OHKO moves are NOT allowed.

Note, the hax item ban is not in effect. This is because no one wants to trade a 10 HP recovery for a 10% chance of going first.

Ban List
Every metagame has its own ban list. Little Cup is no different.

- Scyther

The old ban list has been edited. Scyther remains the only Pokemon banned. The other ones are up for testing.

Usable Pokemon
Banned Pokemon will not be listed.

RBY Generation
Bulbasaur
Charmander
Squirtle
Caterpie
Weedle
Pidgey
Ratatta
Spearow
Ekans
Sandshrew
Nidoran M
Nidoran F
Vulpix
Zubat
Oddish
Paras
Venonat
Diglett
Meowth
Psyduck
Mankey
Growlithe
Poliwag
Abra
Machop
Bellsprout
Tentacool
Geodude
Ponyta
Slowpoke
Magnemite
Doduo
Seel
Grimer
Shellder
Gastly
Onix
Drowzee
Krabby
Voltorb
Exeggcute
Koffing
Rhyhorn
Horsea
Goldeen
Staryu
Magikarp
Eevee
Porygon
Omanyte
Kabuto
Dratini

GSC Generation
Chikorita
Cyndaquil
Totodile
Sentret
Hoothoot
Ledyba
Spinarak
Chinchou
Pichu
Cleffa
Igglybuff
Togepi
Natu
Mareep
Hoppip
Sunkern
Wooper
Pineco
Snubbull
Teddiursa
Slugma
Swinub
Remoraid
Houndour
Phanpy
Tyrogue
Smoochum
Elekid
Magby
Larvitar

RSE Generation
Treecko
Torchic
Mudkip
Poochyena
Zigzagoon
Wurmple
Lotad
Seedot
Taillow
Wingull
Ralts
Surskit
Shroomish
Slakoth
Nincada
Whismur
Makuhita
Azurill
Skitty
Aron
Nosepass
Electrike
Gulpin
Carvanha
Wailmer
Numel
Spoink
Trapinch
Cacnea
Swablu
Barboach
Corphish
Baltoy
Lileep
Amorith
Feebas
Shuppet
Duskull
Snorunt
Spheal
Bagon
Beldum

DP Generation
Turtwig
Chimchar
Piplup
Starly
Bidoof
Kricketot
Shinx
Budew
Cranidos
Sheildon
Burmy
Combee
Buizel
Cherubi
Shellos
Drifloon
Buneary
Glameow
Chingling
Stunky
Bronzor
Bonsly
Mime Jr.
Happiny
Gible
Riolu
Hippopotas
Skorupi
Croagunk
Finneon
Mantyke
Snover

Standards
This is a list of Pokemon that stand out in Little Cup, and are staples of any team.

Abra @ Choice Specs/Scarf
Synchronise
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Energy Ball
- Shadow Ball

EVs: 236 SAtk / 196 Spd / 76 HP
Nature: Modest (+SAtk, -Atk) or Timid (+Spd, -Atk)

Abra is the premier special attacker of Little Cup. Something worthy of note is that a Modest, Choice Specs, Hidden Power Fighting from Abra is an OHKO on a Max HP, Max SDef, neutral nature Munchlax.

Cranidos @ Choice Scarf
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Pursuit/Crunch
- Zen Headbutt/Hammer Arm

EVs: 196 Atk / 236 Spd / 76 SDef
Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SAtk)

Cranidos is the premier physical attacker of Little Cup. With max speed and a Choice Scarf, Cranidos outspeeds Elekid, Voltorb and the like, providing they do not have Choice Scarves.

Diglett @ Life Orb/Choice Scarf/Choice Band
Arena Trap
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Rock Slide
- Aerial Ace

EVs: 196 Atk / 236 Spd / 76 Def
Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SAtk) or Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)

Diglett was the main revenge killer of Advance Little Cup, and now it's back to deal more damage. Loss of physical Sludge Bomb has hurt it somewhat, but it makes up for it with Sucker Punch, which counters Gastly. Diglett doesn't get Stone Edge for some reason.

Elekid @ Life Orb/Expert Belt/Choice Scarf
- Thunderpunch/Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Cross Chop/Brick Break/Focus Punch
- Psychic/Thunder Wave/Quick Attack

EVs: 196 Atk / 76 SAtk / 236 Spd
Nature: Lonely (+Atk, -Def) or Mild (+SAtk, -Def)

Elekid is a mixed sweeper, unlike it's mostly physical evolution Electivire. Thunderpunch and Thunderbolt is up to you, but it will be your main attack. Thunder Wave can be used to mess up the opposing team, to let some of your slower Pokemon to deal damage.

Porygon @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf/Life Orb/Expert Belt
Trace/Download
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Tri Attack
- Signal Beam/Shadow Ball

EVs: 76 Def / 196 SAtk / 236 Spd
Nature: Modest (+SAtk, -Atk) or Timid (+Spd, -Atk)

Porygon is an interesting Pokemon. It can revenge kill Diglett. Once it switches in, it can absorb an Earthquake and OHKO with Ice Beam. A Choice Scarf may also be used. If you are using Porygon to attack, the other three items may be used. Porygon has a good movepool. Download can be used to boost SAtk.

Chinchou @ Oran Berry
Volt Absorb
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Confuse Ray
- Thunder Wave

EVs: 156 HP / 56 Def / 148 SAtk / 148 SDef
Nature: Calm (+SDef, -Atk)

Chinchou is one of two Pokemon that resist Boltbeam in Little Cup, the other being Magnemite. Parafusion also messes up the opponents team. Dual STAB is always nice, allowing you to hit harder.

Larvitar @ Life Orb/Choice Band/Flame Orb/Choice Scarf
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Dance/Brick Break/Iron Head
- Pursuit

EVs: 196 Atk / 236 Spd / 76 HP
Nature: Jolly (+Atk, -SAtk)

Larvitar got a boost this generation from Stone Edge and a physical Pursuit (albeit without STAB). Two Dragon Dances allows you to outspeed Diglett, unless said Diglett is Jolly.
Pursuit takes care of things that switch out.

Buizel @ Choice Band
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Brick Break
- Aqua Jet/Pursuit

EVs: 236 Atk / 196 Spd / 76 HP
Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SAtk) or Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)

Buizel is a new Choice Bander. Pursuit takes care of fleeing Pokemon, but Aqua Jet can get the first hit in on Diglett (who might Sucker Punch).

Gastly @ Oran Berry
- Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Explosion
- Hypnosis

EVs: 76 Def / 196 SAtk / 236 Spd
Nature: Naive (+Spd, -SDef)

Gastly provides a much-needed Normal, Fighting and Ground immunity, stats fit for a special sweeper, Explosion and a Sleep move. The EV spread allows you to survive a Diglett Rock Slide, but not a Sucker Punch.

Voltorb @ Life Orb
- Thunder Wave/Substitute
- Explosion
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass/Ice]

EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd / 80 SAtk
Nature: Naive (+Spd, -SDef)

Explosion OHKO's most things in Little Cup. Voltorb may outspeed Diglett and can OHKO with Hidden Power.

Houndour @ Choice Scarf
- Pursuit
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power [Grass]

EVs: 116 Atk / 116 SAtk / 40 SpDef / 236 Spd
Nature: Mild (+SAtk, -Def)

This Houndour can revenge kill Diglett, and sweep if revenge killing is not required.

More to come!


Items
Here is a list and description of items that stand out in Little Cup. Keep in mind that Item Clause is in effect.

Oran Berry - Heals 10HP, about 50% for most Pokemon.
Choice Band/Specs/Scarf - Boosts stats. Used on fast, strong Pokemon, or just strong Pokemon in the case of Choice Scarf.
Life Orb - Used on sweepers that require diversity.
Lum Berry - Used on Pokemon that don't like status, like Abra.
Salac Berry - Used for Endflailers or slow sweepers.
Liechi Berry - Used for fast physical sweepers.
Petaya Berry - Used for fast special sweepers.
Wide Lens - Used for Pokemon with low accuracy moves.
Wise Glasses - Used for special sweepers that require diversity.
Damp/Hot Rock - Used for weather teams.
Expert Belt - Used for sweepers that require diversity.
Flame/Toxic Orb - Used for Guts Pokemon.
Focus Sash - Used for Pokemon that boost their stats.
Muscle Band - Used for physical sweepers that require diversity.
Shed Shell - Used to escape trappers.

The list of usable items has greatly increased. The descriptions should give a clear example of what should be given to what.




I need suggestions for Standards. Any advice on other sections would also be appreciated.

[Great Sage**]

Sitrus Berry no longer heals 30 HP, but 25% of a Pokemon's maximum HP. Translation? It's a bad item now. I don't have much Little Cup experience, but I heard Diglett and Azurill are pretty popular. Also, note that Pokemon with 19 HP only take 1 HP of Life Orb recoil!

Yeah, Ponyta might need a ban. Flare Blitz off 85 base Attack, coupled with 90 base Speed, is damn powerful.

Heat Rock, not Hot Rock.

I repeat, Sitrus Berry is now a bad item. See above.

[Lupo Aro]

How is Ponyta allowed?

[makiri]

Pursuit is a great attack that ruins a ton of standards like Gastly and Abra as many times it will OHKO those Pokemon even without switching, the old user Houndour has a lower Attack than Special Attack but can still use it to much effectiveness. Larvitar, Doduo, and Buizel also look to be great users of it, Buizel has a decent attack combined with a great speed to cause some problems on the physical end of the spectrum especially with a Choice Scarf or Band.

Revenge killers were always a major part of Little Cup, and Diglett seems to shine again with Arena Trap, and Sucker Punch allows it to beat up on Scarfers and other threats faster than it.

Speed is huge in Little Cup, and the addition of Scarf makes it easier for things that were too slow to finally get some use. But this also brings more revenge killers in.

Chinchou needs some mention in standards because of it ability to deal status out and absorb the attacks of a popular sweeper Elekid.

Porygon is huge with Trace as a counter to Diglett who would otherwise run wild, it has the Defenses to survive a Diglett attack and OHKO with its own attack. Download could also see some play as a simple boost in any stat can do some major damage, and Porygon gets STAB on Return and Tri Attack, both of which will do some huge damage to anything that doesn't resist/immune with a Download boost.

I think a few of the Pokemon you banned need some sort of testing in Little Cup, as this is Little Cup and base stats don't play that much of a role.

I will post more organized thoughts later, but I think these are the most important points right here.

[darkie]

Originally Posted by Fat Obi

Is Pikachu allowed to hold Light Ball? Note that it now doubles Attack and Special Attack (and that Pikachu's Attack is higher than its Special Attack).

Pikachu doesn't hatch from an egg, so it can't be used anyway.

[david stone]

Ah, foolish me.

[Chimpakt]

How many EVs do you need for 1 stat point?

[Thorns]

Generally 76 EVs is required, but it may change depending on the Pokemon's base stats.

I've also added some more sets, but I need more suggestions for tanks/walls and special sweepers, since the prominent Pokemon in Little Cup seem to be Choice Banders.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorns

Generally 76 EVs is required, but it may change depending on the Pokemon's base stats.

I've also added some more sets, but I need more suggestions for tanks/walls and special sweepers, since the prominent Pokemon in Little Cup seem to be Choice Banders.

There aren't really tanks or walls in Little Cup. The stats are so low that the best way to wall something is to resist its attacks. Little Cup is driven by resistances.

Ex: Rhyhorn is probably the highest combination of HP and Defense in little cup. Lets take it vs. Head Smash Cranidos:

Max Attack Adamant Cranidos using Head Smash on 176/176 Rhyhorn: Damage: 42-53%.

Thats a potential 2HKO. Granted, that is the most powerful attack in Little Cup, but its also against a pokemon with high HP and defense that resists it. Compared to the same EVs at Level 100, the damage goes down to 33-39%. The only thing that takes it below a potential 2HKO is Onix, and both Rhyhorn and Onix get owned by Earthquake.

So really, Little Cup is as heavily offense oriented as you can get.

Special Sweepers:

Abra, Gastly, and Houndour are the best ones under normal conditions, but Magnemite and Omanyte are very potent under Trick Room (or Rain Dance in Omanyte's case)

[makiri]

Revenge Houndour
Houndour @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire
- Pursuit
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power: Grass

EVs: 116 Atk / 116 SAtk / 40 SpDef / 236 Spd
Nature: Mild (+SAtk, -Def)

Houndour is a great revenge killer 116 Attack to reach 14 which will OHKO Abra and has a great chance to OHKO Gastly with Pursuit (no switch), Flamethrower OHKOs Diglett who might think they can KO but will be surprised when Houndour outspeeds, Dark Pulse has a chance to OHKO but not guaranteed. HP Grass to beat up on Rocks, Grounds, and Waters who might switch in. Revenge Houndour is a great late game (lol) or revenge sweeper as it does tons of damage but can't OHKO everything, but it does OHKO the major threats. Speed not always needed and can be put either attack stat.

Voltorb @ Life Orb
Static
- Thunder Wave/Substitute
- Explosion
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power: Grass/Ice

EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd / 80 SAtk
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)

Explosion is the main attack, it OHKOs nearly everything in Little Cup and is great for hitting something that is causing problems for your team. Hidden Power Grass is suggested to OHKO Larvitar and Rhyhorn, which HP Ice will not do, and you can also hit Chinchou for decent damage who would otherwise wall all other attacks (minus Explosion). Voltorb outspeed all non Scarf users with this spread with the exception of Diglett who also maxes at 20. Voltorb will tie Jolly Diglett and can OHKO with HP Grass or Explosion.

Some damage calculations for problem Pokemon:

Adamant Max Attack CB Sucker Punch from Diglett: 66% - 76%
Adamant Max Attack CB Aqua Jet from Buizel: 57% - 66%
Suggested EV spread HP Grass to 252/252 Diglett: 85% - 100% (EXTREME situation, usually OHKO)
Suggested EV spread Thunderbolt to 252/252 Buizel: 136% - 160% (OHKO always)

Voltorb is very dangerous and can cause some huge problems to nearly everything, Scarf Pokemon are the only true counters to it as it OHKOs any problems it runs into with Explosion or one of its Super Effective moves. Substitute is probably a better option over Thunder Wave as Voltorb will have problems if its hurt too much while trying to Thunder Wave.

Walls don't exist in Little Cup, neither do things that try to set up. Pokemon regularly take 70+% which doesn't bode well for anything. You have to play with Resistances and Immunities to switch Pokemon in. Speed is very crucial and the fastest Pokemon usually wins.

I'll have more later.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Yeah, Ponyta cannot be in this.

HP/Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense/Speed

Ponyta-50/85/55/65/65/90
Dugtrio-35/80/50/50/70/120

Yes, 4 of Ponyta's stats beat Dugtrio's (who, is not NU, not UU, not BL, but Standard). I know stats dont mean everything, and Dugtrio's main reason for being OU is not its stats, but still, anything that has stats that look better than a Standard's should NOT be allowed here. Would we let Sand Veil Dugtrio in?

[Somebody]

Omanyte was a beast in ADV. I can only assume the addition of Wet Rock will help it greatly in DP.

[Lupo Aro]

I think these should be tested before being banned imo:

Meditite
Wynaut
Lickitung
Aipom
Murkrow
Yanma
Nosepass
Munchlax

[makiri]

I decided to take a look at the list of banned Pokemon you gave

- Scyther
Banned because of its obscene base stat total, outspeeds everything, get Technician and a slew of attacks to abuse it with, this Scarfed will cause some huge trouble. Banned (but if some others are allowed, worth looking into again)

- Meditite
Banned for its great attack stat, which is doubled, a decent speed to run off of, great Scarfer. But if Cranidos is allowed, I think this needs to be looked at as well, its essentially the same thing with a bit more attack. Test

- Wynaut
Wynaut is a mirror Wobbuffet, but in Little Cup its nearly impossible to set up things, so Encore and switch to a free set up just really isn't there as any attack will do tons of damage to the Wynaut and the switch in. Until someone can prove to me that its as dangerous as its bigger brother it needs to be tested. Test

- Tangela
Has great Special Attack and Defense, and can survive some hits, but it plays exactly like Tangrowth, Double Powder, Leech Seed, maybe a Swords Dance/Growth set. But it has a very lack luster Special Defense which can be taken advantage of by Abra, Houndour, Porygon, etc. Test

- Lickitung
Lickitung has nothing really going for it at all, everage stats all around, abysmal Speed, no Explosion, it does get STAB Normal moves though. Maybe a test Pokemon but I don't think it even needs that. Unbanned

- Aipom
Once again an average normal user, 2 crappy abilities, the stats aren't there and it can't even try to be tricky with Special moves with a terrible special attack. Speed is good though, basically a physical version of Gastly/Abra imo. Unbanned

- Murkrow
I'm still on the fence with this thing, very good speed and very good in both attack stats, together with terrible defenses, it does get STAB Dark moves and will cause some huge problems to the list of Dark weaks with Sucker Punch. Its movepool isn't huge but still very usable. Test

- Misdreavus
Good special stats and speed, but still less than Abra, weak to Pursuit doesn't help it, can play around with many non damaging moves, really worth testing imo. Test

- Sneasel
Physical version of Abra, but insane speed stat which may be enough to ban it, it suffers from some weak defense, but still very dangerous. Worth a test but I expect it to be banned because of its similarities with Scyther. Test

- Yanma
Speed that doesn't stop giving itself boosts, coupled with decent stats in both attacks, would be very difficult to take down after it gets 2 Speed boosts with STAB Bug attacks and HP Ice/Grass to deal with the Rocks that come in. Worth a test but I'm leaning towards ban. Test

- Nosepass
Great defenses, terrible Speed, Hp, and attacks, it can't do much of anything, Thunder Wave, Explosion, STAB Rock moves but it might be one of the few things that can take down Yanma, Scyther (which could use some testing now with the slew of Rock types that might be used), and Sneasel. Not worth banning at all. Unbanned

- Gligar
Gets Roost to help it out majorly, coupled with some great defenses and Speed. But thats not always a good thing in Little Cup, I'm leaning towards a ban, but once again things with great attack are still allowed, maybe one of the few things to stand up to Scyther if thats unbanned. Test

- Munchlax
Huge HP, great Attack and Special Defense, terrible Speed and Defense. Munchlax can't wall anything in Little Cup because of the extreme offensive nature, so it can't Curse up to sweep. Its Speed makes it so it can't sweep as it will get hit before it can hit. As stated before a Specs Abra HP Fighting is a OHKO, so even its HP and Special Defense do nothing. Unbanned

- Cubone *
With Thick Club it gets a decent Attack (30), but what it gains in attack is loses in Speed. Cranidos has a 24 Attack but can use Scarf to outspeed everything, Cubone can use all 4 of its attacks, but I don't think it will last long, sure it will OHKO something, but after that it will be hit hard by something that switches in. Even with Thick Club I think it should be a Test

- Clamperl *
Clamperl's Special Attack is huge with Deepseatooth, it can't be CH and has decent Defense and Special Defense, but like Cubone it still has very low speed, it can OHKO most things and will cause problems, but I feel the same way about this as with Cubone, if things like Cranidos, CS Abra, etc are allowed, this really needs to be a Test

I added one more since people have been questioning Ponyta

-Ponyta
Finally gets STAB Fire to use with its great Attack, but its Attack is still less than other things like Cranido's Attack and Abra's Special Attack and is tied with Porygon's Special Attack, and nothing about it really screams "ban me" Unbanned


While this list is filled with things that need to be tested, that's what needs to happen. If you fully want to flesh out a metagame, things need to be tested, allowing for overpowered things to be seen in a game, not in paper. Things will look great on paper, but once it comes to actually using it it doesn't work. The main reason I say test on even things like Sneasel is because of new things like Cranidos, if we allow that, why can't we go back and revisit old things that were banned.

I want to hear other people's opinions on this.

[toy]

I dont really understand thorns "banning" certain pokemon with no disscussion or a chance.

[Lupo Aro]

Ponyta should stay banned imo, it has STAB Flare Blitz with that ridiculous attack and speed.

Sneasel is even more ridiculous stat-wise but doesn't have an insane STAB move like Ponyta.

Sure, Cranidos has Head Smash, but the accuracy makes less broken.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Lupo Aro

Ponyta should stay banned imo, it has STAB Flare Blitz with that ridiculous attack and speed.

Sneasel is even more ridiculous stat-wise but doesn't have an insane STAB move like Ponyta.

Sure, Cranidos has Head Smash, but the accuracy makes less broken.

Ponyta's Flare Blitz is easily stopped by other Ponyta, Vulpix, Growlithe(Int or FF), Houndour, Kabuto, and Omanyte. It is outsped by Gastly/Abra and Voltorb. It takes out about half its HP when it hits. Whats its backup move? Return? Ha. It gets revenge killed by any Scarfer and Diglett. Trick Room has a similar effect.

People going "OMG BAN Ponyta!" sound like they've never battled Little Cup before.

[yoshi!]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorns

Larvitar got a boost this generation from Stone Edge and a physical Pursuit (albeit without STAB). Two Dragon Dances allows you to outspeed Diglett, unless said Diglett is Adamant.
Pursuit takes care of things that switch out.

I sure hope you meant Jolly for the Diglett's nature...

[monkfish]

Why not just leave all of them unbanned until you actually have a reason for putting them on the uber list? The ban list at the moment looks like a metagame in itself for crying out loud.

[Thorns]

Thanks for everyone's input. I'll get editing.

[makiri]

toy and I have been making a ton of sets, we'll put them all out at once.

[Thorns]

Thank you very much. After all sets have been posted I'll add a credits sections and credit everyone who's helped with this.

[Bologo]

Choice Scarfed Adaptablility Eevee could be pretty awesome. Return instantly becomes a 204 base power attack coming off an alright 16 attack, Double-Edge can also work becoming 240 base power. Choice Scarf puts its speed up to a respectable 22. Choice Band can also work if you don't mind the lack of speed. Put his attack up to a nice 24 while throwing out huge Returns/Double-Edges. Bite can go in there to get rid of Gastly if you can predict a switch-in. Quick Attack can also work well if you're using a Choice Band. Iron tail can go as a filler as you'll probably never use it.

Eevee @Choice Scarf/Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 236 Atk/236 Spd/36 whatever
Jolly/Adamant Nature

~ Return/Double-Edge
~ Bite
~ Quick Attack
~ Iron Tail

Choice Scarf Wailmer can be quite deadly as well with a full-power Water Spout. It gets 70 base special attack which honestly isn't that bad for Little Cup and it can reach a respectable 22 speed with Choice Scarf, or 24 if you want Timid.

[Gmax]

Eevee@Choice Band
Adabtability
252 Attack/252 Spd/4 HP
Jolly
-Sleep Talk
-Last Resort

[Flash_gearz]

What about happny? Is it just me or 100HP Base, and 65 Sp.DEF base really crazy high?

Happny@eftovers
Bold
236Def,236SP.DEF,RestHP

Rest
Counter
Thunder Wave
Toxic

Rest due to not having softboiled.
Counter do to crap attack stats
Thunderwave to slow down everything
Toxic for damage