Summer Freedom V interest thread/tier discussion

[GreenPikachu]

i'd be interested in doing this. i missed out on it last summer. i don't really have any opinions on tiers though. heh.

[goborage]

You might want to consider PR's UU tiers. Most battlers who have recently got into UU are using it already.

[Warthog]

just dont make it double elmination and Ill join.

[crabnebula]

Definitely interested.

Cradily -> UU
Kangaskhan -> BL
Hypno -> UU
Hariyama - BL

Also ban bp teams, thanks.

[husk]

[FONT=Times New Roman]97. Hypno – UU
122. Mr. Mime - UU
346. Cradily - UU


are the only changes I think should be made.
[/FONT]

[SSBM roy]

Machamp to OU

Why make Hariyama BL and this OU when they have effectively the same stats?

Hariyama to BL

See Machamp. I think both should be BL.

Hypno to UU

I agree. Toxic isn't difficult to get around, and Hypno is already ingrained into the metagame.

Cradily to UU

Absolutely, as all it does is resist normal and Toxic things.

Mr. Mime to UU

There are other Calm Mind passers like Lunatone regardless, so I agree with this.

Walrein to BL

This makes Gligar that much more dangerous, and Walrein doesn't sweep teams alone, so no.

Omastar to BL

Rain Dance and Spikes are both great, but this could upset people who are used to having Omastar on ordinary UU teams. I guess it could go either way.

Feraligatr to BL

It's a nice Swords Dancer but hardly dominating, so no.

Kanghaskhan to BL

Again, it's a nice normal, but not good enough to be BL in my opinion.

Charizard to BL

It's as good a special attacker as Typhlosion already, but Belly Drum? It can even OHKO Walrein with Rock Slide, unlike Swampert or Suicune.

Cloyster to UU

Spikes are already common often with Omastar's popularity. I would leave this be.

Houndoom to BL

It's feasible, but Pursuit and WoW are nasty. I would leave it.

[Pilocus]

lol mime being bl. It looks good, although Mime, Cradily and Hypno are really fine being uu. In addition, I am against omastar being bl, based on the fact that there really isn't any basis for moving omastar to bl other than "spikes suck"

[rekt]

100% interested.

[Fabbles]

I am very interested.

Omastar - UU
Kangaskhan - UU
Hariyama - UU
Cradily - UU
Mr. Mime - UU
Lapras - UU
Walrein - UU
Hypno - UU

[Mr.E]

hi I want to join for once 8)

Machamp to OU
Hariyama to BL
Hariyama is practically the same thing as Machamp. They have essentially the same offensive and defensive power, same type and same attacks. The only difference, besides looks, is Hariyama has two traits to choose from and a couple oddball moves like Whirlwind. I could see a case for them going OU, but I'd just move Hariyama to BL and keep both of them there. Machamp and Hariyama SHOULD be on the same tier.
Hypno to UU
I am inclined to agree, but I can also see Hypno in a similar vein as I do to Mr. Mime below. It's pretty good just doing its thing. And, as per Mekkah, if Grumpig can fulfill a similar role... :[
Cradily to UU
Cradily has a mean stall, but it simply can't deal damage. I can see it in UU. It can't DO anything except receive a BP chain.
Mr. Mime to UU
Maybe, but Mime is a powerful BP chainer and it's fairly decent offensively in its own right. Fine in BL, but I don't care if it's UU either.
Walrein to BL
Definitely. Outclassed by Lapras? More than likely, since most people can't see past Tbolt, but Walrein has the stats and its own special moves to take advantage of like Yawn or Encore.
Omastar to BL
No comment. Huge power as well as Defense, but Qwilfish does Spikes decently itself and it's still slow and fragile against special attackers.
Feraligatr to BL
Overrated piece of crap. It's fine in UU.
Kanghaskhan to BL
Early Bird-Rest makes it stronger than most people give it credit for, even in standards, and it's pretty versatile. Agreed.
Charizard to BL
I made a comment expecting it was in UU, but you have it labeled as OU? It's a sweeping threat with Belly Drum, but difficult to set up and otherwise just another hard but fragile heavy hitter. I say bump it down, but I might not get much agreement here.
Cloyster to UU (flub said this, blame him)
Flub and G80 are dumb.
Houndoom to BL
Yeah. :/ Weaker than Charizard in many respects, at least in terms of sweeping potential.

As for my own suggestions:

Golem: It's not THAT much weaker than it's buddy Rhydon, but it's UU and Rhydon is OU. Shouldn't Golem be at least BL?

Porygon2: I think it should be OU, easily. Great Boltbeamer, fantastic support, can even function as Curselax-lite using the semi-standard Cursing set. Just because it's not a common standard doesn't mean it can't hang with them.

The most usable NFEs include: Kadabra, Vigoroth, possibly Pupitar and Shieldon. Chansey and Scyther are obviously usable, as are Pikachu and Clamperl. Cubone is outclassed by Sandslash.

Chansey and Scyther have been addressed, Kadabra should probably be BL. I'd say Pikachu is worthy of BL status and Clamperl UU, though one could argue to place them at OU and BL, respectively.

[DragonDance]

Originally Posted by Fat goborage

I'm interested too but I'm not a huge fan of BLs being allowed.

1 BL being allowed is what makes SF SF. This is not your standard UU tourney.

And I made top 16 last year, so I am 100% interested for this. Will post my opinions on tiers when it isn't late at night.

[NC]

Porygon2: I think it should be OU, easily. Great Boltbeamer, fantastic support, can even function as Curselax-lite using the semi-standard Cursing set. Just because it's not a common standard doesn't mean it can't hang with them.

It doesn't get curse anymore.

Also I would join this regardless of tiers, but I agree with moving hypno to UU and hariyama to BL.

[gene]

mres fat I was laughing at the idea of UU Cloyster not supporting it.

[spies]

Definitely would join. I don't like tier discussions much so I'll keep my comments, I found last SF's list very reasonable.

[Mr.E]

Originally Posted by Fat NC

It doesn't get curse anymore.

Oh well. :/ I never liked the Curse set anyway, made it too much like Snorlax except inferior.

k sry geeeighty

[jrrrrrrr]

This looks like it could be a fun tourney!

[Sir Spanky]

I'm definitely interested, even though one BL really isn't my cup of tea. I don't join enough tournies :s

[peter_pan]

i'd join

[Lexay]

Originally Posted by Fat gmax

Well, by Smogon's tiers, Dodrio and Jynx were BL. And Kangaskhan should definitely be BL. That kind of HP/Spd/Atk is very powerful. It is too powerful for the UU metagame. And Walrein's tankyness and lack of 4x weaknesses should make it BL.

Both are proven to be perfectly fine working in UU. Walrein and Kangaskhan shouldn't be moved to BL at all, especially in this tournament.

[Mr.E]

As a long-time user of Kangaskhan in standards on my fun team, it will punch you in the mouth.

[Mekkah**]

How a Pokemon performs in standard should say nothing about where it should be tiered in the SF metagame.

[theamericandream38]

VERY interested, and my opinions pretty much mirror SSBM roy's. Although I think houndoom should be BL, because I don't see it being too good.

[blackshellbowser]

I am interested in this tourney! I have always wanted to join, but never got good at UU...

[Pocket]

Originally Posted by Fat Slobroking

awesome

omastar --> bl imo
I'm not too sure...I mean it's really only good in switching in against Fearows and CB normals, and any water type would basically shut it down if it tries to Rain Dance and sweep. It also can't spikes and Rain Dance as that is too much set up and spreading of evs into speed, hp, defense, sp atk...won't work, i tried x_x. But perhaps a smarter trainer would focus on its Defense and spiking capabilities with its high special offense as secondary interest...in that case it may be quite annoying.

mr mime --> uu
Yea, I agree with Slobroking here, Lunatone and Hypno should go BL for its superior CMpassing capabilities than Mr. Mime.

hypno --> uu imo
no comment...mixed biased feelings about this guy x_x

feraligatr --> bl
haven't used him at all, so I can't say much. I did face it however, and HP Flying, EQ, and Hydro Pump is a pretty mean offensive variety...but I still think that, when weighing the pros and cons, Feraligatr's varied offense and Defense is no better than Tentacruel's awesome special defense, speed, STAB sludge bomb, and poison immunity.

hariyama --> bl because machamp is bl
Hariyama is actually all-round inferior to Machamp. A difference of 10 base stat points in Attack may seem little, but when it comes to EV distro, it means a whole lot of EV investment. For Hariyama, that would mean it has to invest more in offense and less in defensive stats. And Hariyama's defensive stats are worse to begin with. Just to give you some numbers, an Adamant Machamp with 368 HP and 268 Sp Def (the evs are reasonable...368 for max leftovers recovery and max Sp Def) takes 38 ~ 45% from a modest Electabuzz's Thunder (max sp atk evs). An Adamant Hariyama needs max HP and Sp Def to take Thunder for the same range, with only 4 attack evs to spare (+1 attack point) whereas Machamp had enough for + 14 attack points on its already high Attack. Therefore if Hariyama wants to even be as effective as Machamp by surviving just as many hits to dish out its attack, it would either have to spend most of its evs in defense, or give up its attack boosting nature for a defensive boosting nature; either way its offense would not be as remarkable. Don't let its massive HP blind us from its horrid 60 defense; Machamp has a relatively very high HP and a stellar defense in the 80s...not to mention its superiority in offense, Attack and Speed. Therefore if Machamp is BL then Hariyama should be UU, pretty much a poor man's Machamp.

kangaskhan --> bl
Kangaskhan has few reliable counters I agree, but there are solid counters...so I think its safe to stay in UU.

[NC]

Those calculations with hariyama and machamp are off by a lot. Hariyama takes hits better than machamp. From a modest electabuzz thunder when both have 188 HP, 252 Special defense "adamant" nature-
Machamp takes- 42%-49%
Hariyama takes- 39%-46%

Machamp needs a Careful nature just to tie those damages with an adamant hariyama and hariyama would have higher attack due to its adamant nature. Also, hariyama's movepool is much better than machamps. There is no reason for them to be in different tiers.