Summer Freedom V interest thread/tier discussion

[Pocket]

Gah, calculated Machamp's calc with a non-modest buzz x_x...Huge Mistake, sorry bout that; wish I could take it all back =x Thanks NC for picking it up x_x

[Captain]

Imo, Cradily should be uu. Its main duty is to wall and then toxic back. Of course, it is usually weak to toxic itself due to the fact its almost always weilding recover. 81 base attack/special attack doesn't do much on its own. Beyond toxic, its weak to fighting making the Hitmons and Hariyama at least decent counters regardless of the set. Hariyama could vary well be the best counter as it eats its attacks easily, gets attack boost from toxic, and destroys cradily with its STAB move. Cradily fears more than fighting and toxic depending on the set. Without eq its asking to be setup fotter for tentacruel. Without Giga Drain quagsire also sets up on Cradily. Its too easily countered for something that mainly stalls to be bl, imo.

[NC]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Gah, calculated Machamp's calc with a non-modest buzz x_x...Huge Mistake, sorry bout that; wish I could take it all back =x Thanks NC for picking it up x_x

No problem :), the only reason I got that was that I "never" use machamp over hariyama (except for CBing) due to hariyama's HP giving it superior physical and special defenses.

[TheMusicMan]

Read first post, but not whole thread.

Very interested, and I'll sign up if this happens.

[Flub]

On every serious competitive team, walrein is being used. Moving it to BL would eliminate that.

[Mr.E]

Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah

How a Pokemon performs in standard should say nothing about where it should be tiered in the SF metagame.

The point is Kangaskhan is boss and way too good to be in the feeble company of UU.

Originally Posted by Fat Flub

On every serious competitive team, walrein is being used. Moving it to BL would eliminate that.

That's kinda like saying, "Walrein needs moved to BL because it's just too good not to use if you label it UU." :[

[cookie]

I would definitely sign up for this. I quite enjoy the UU metagame since I find people pack more surprises.

[husk]

Kanga isn't very good at all...I don't think I really have to get into why... we've had this discussion on many other communities and each time we had the same result: Kanga is uu. Walrein is pretty much perfectly hindered by that rock weakness as it can't come in on aggron/golem and other things with rock stab that a "bulky water" usually would. I've found that you need to waste a couple extra slots to add walrein to a team.

[Mekkah**]

Originally Posted by Fat MrE

The point is Kangaskhan is boss and way too good to be in the feeble company of UU.

If that is the point why are you talking about Kangaskhan in OU?

Originally Posted by Fat husk

we've had this discussion on many other communities and each time we had the same result: Kanga is uu.

Why'd you discuss something over and over again and get the same result every time? Plus, if you ask me, Kangaskhan is perfectly fine in BL here. Feel free to explain why Kangaskhan isn't good at all again, because last time I checked it is at least one of the best UUs by far.

[cookie]

k, after going over the thread, here's my 2 cents:
Mr. Mime > UU - so fragile it's unbelievable. It can't even take strong special hits without a few Calm Minds under its belt, which if you let it do you deserve to lose. If it invests HP/Defenses EVs it has to take out of Speed, which means stuff like Gligar and Fearow can come in on Calm Mind and handle it.

Kangaskhan > UU - sure, it packs STAB Normal and decent stats, but in my experience it's not hard to stop as long as you have something with good Defense. Without Choice Band it's even easier.

Hypno > UU - I might be biased because I personally have no trouble with dealing with it, but to me it seems as long as you use physical moves you should be fine. It can't hurt you much and paralysis makes it a lot harder to Wish.

Closyter > UU - this is a joke. As well as providing a good counter to Gligar, it's also a viable Rapid Spinner for those Omastar/Qwilfish that Spike up in your face. It dies to special move easily enough anyway.

Cradily > BL - it is very tough to handle without a STAB SE move. Hitmonlee dies to Earthquake, Walrein loses if it switches on Rock Slide, etc. If you can't hit it hard enough it will sit there Recovering waiting for a CH to kill it.

Typhlosion > BL - rapes anything not named Hypno/Tentacruel. Souped-up Fire Blast is very hard to deal with in UU, when most things that resist it are weak to Grass.

Ursaring > OU - scary shit with Swords Dance. After Swords Dance if you don't KO it with something faster you will die.

Charizard > OU - 1. Belly Drum. 2. gg. You can't even finish it with a priority move it it's a Sub version, and even so it often doesn't need the Salac boost since it outspeeds or ties with everything in the metagame save Persian/Swellow.

Porygon2 > BL - keep it this way. See Cradily.

more later

[husk]

Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah

Why'd you discuss something over and over again and get the same result every time?

Obviously, when you discuss it at a number of different forums there are different people at each forum and therefore a discussion needs to take place so that the people who did not see the previous discussions on the other forums can be educated...much like the one here. I thought you were better than that Mekkah.

Kanga is good no doubt, probably the normal of choice in uu...I just never see it getting anything done. Its attack isn't high enough to take care of rock types (other than aggron). The obvious solution to that is to cb it and that comes down to prediction and through my experience I just don't have much trouble with it at all. Its speed is just not good enough to compete with the quicker things in uu and it has too little defense to take hits well. It's surely a uu poke. In BL with ursa and p2 I don't think it is going to see much play at all, but since it's such a "stellar" poke I must be wrong. TBH I have no problem with it being in BL because it wasn't going to be on my team anyway...so feel free to send it there. I'm just trying to help everyone else out by having a tier system that makes sense.


Also in reference to Cookie Crumbz's post: Typhlosion rapes Hypno...maybe you were thinking of grumpig?

[Pillowrath]

I have only lost to one Kangaskhan in my experience and that was to Husk, who is an extraordinary battler. Kangaskhan might have quite a bit of staying power, but can't really switch in on offensive attacks, especially due to spikes whoring in the metagame. In today's UU metagame, most defensive pokemon have Thunder Wave/Toxic, Kanga hates them with a passion. If Kanga has Rest, it is forced to rest early and you can get a free switch in to your strong offensive pokemon. For Choice Banders, like Husk said, you need to counter it the way you counter any other CBer. The defensive varients might be difficult to take down, but they need lots of EVs investments in Kanga's HP/Def or SDef. If that's the case, it leaves Kanga with not a lot of offense or speed.

There might not be a "true" counter for Kangaskhan, seeing the best ones are Omastar, Meganium, and cradily; all of those can't exactly beat it. But reflect usually makes Kanga useless, and reflect's common in UU. If I recall correctly, Husk used a Defensive Banette who survived Shadow Ball quite easily and Will-o-Wisped Kangaskhan rendering it pretty useless.

Every metagame has some over-pokemon like Kangaskhan. Tyranitar in OU for example. The reliable counter for Tyranitar is Swampert, who doesn't like to switch into predicted Focus Punches at all.

[Mekkah**]

Originally Posted by Fat husk

Obviously, when you discuss it at a number of different forums there are different people at each forum and therefore a discussion needs to take place so that the people who did not see the previous discussions on the other forums can be educated...much like the one here. I thought you were better than that Mekkah.

No need to play smart with me there. What other forums/communities think here hardly matters, especially since this isn't normal UU but SF UU. What past discussions have shown may not matter as much here either. Celebi has been discussed countless times either but never has a consensus been reached.

Originally Posted by Fat husk

Kanga is good no doubt, probably the normal of choice in uu...I just never see it getting anything done.

Without any sarcasm implied, I think that's pretty odd. Perhaps this is because you know how to outplay Kangaskhan?

Originally Posted by Fat husk

In BL with ursa and p2 I don't think it is going to see much play at all, but since it's such a "stellar" poke I must be wrong.

I think Porygon2 is an entirely different kind of Pokemon since it's Special-based and relies on Recover rather than Early Bird Rest. Both of which have many pro's and cons, though with status being very prevalent right now (especially if Hypno stays UU), I would prefer the latter.

Originally Posted by Fat husk

I'm just trying to help everyone else out by having a tier system that makes sense.

So am I, really. I prefer to tier Pokemon by what makes the game more fun and/or diverse to play. Making big ass standards in UU like Kangaskhan or Hypno changes the game around a bit. Of course, if Kangaskhan stays UU, no harm done. I'll probably use it then.

See, I agree with you that Kangaskhan is by no means a king. It seems "usable but not spanking everything" to me, which is pretty close to the description of a BL in SF imo.

If I recall correctly, Husk used a Defensive Banette who survived Shadow Ball quite easily and Will-o-Wisped Kangaskhan rendering it pretty useless.

I'd never do a trade like that unless I know Kangaskhan has no Rest AND my opponent has no Heal Bell/Aromatherapy at all. Can't really see what this has to do with it.

[husk]

Ah, I see where we disagree now. I believe that the BLs are "beast mode" and were just an addition to the already created and standard uu metagame for the tournament. That's why stuff like Typhlosion who sweeps the entire metagame sans 2to 5 pokemon are allowed or at least that's why I think it's allowed. I guess it's up to cook to decide whether BL is just a tier for the higher end of uu or for the additional, usually not present in uu, pokemon (the way SF was run last year).

[cook]

ill be posting a voting thread shortly so you boys can stop bickering. if anyone wants to add any other pokemon to vote on, please do so now

[Veteran In Love]

i might decide to give it a shot

but seriously, after watching SF for all these years, what is the point of changing tiers yet again seeing as people literally whine no matter where the tiers are.

Has anyone ever considered the idea that the aggressive BLs could be used to counter defensive BLs like Steelix and Cloyster which people whine about all the time? From my experience with UU it seems like people are more willing to clause what they have trouble with rather than fix their own strategies to fit the metagame.

[Aeolus]

Ok, I think I agree with VIL... what is the problem with the tiers we have already?

Also, assuming this starts after I get back to the states.... I'll be playing.

[Flub]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr.E

That's kinda like saying, "Walrein needs moved to BL because it's just too good not to use if you label it UU." :[

Yeah, it is. People may use swellow/fearow over khangaskhan, or victreebel over tentacruel, but nobody would dream of using anything over Walrein. It is too good. The only thing that stops it is a subrev/endrev poke.

[Pocket]

Ok, after my blunder I didn't want to post, but..

Walrein has some pretty solid counters...including CM Golduck, Hypno, Grumpig, Feraligatr, Tentacruel, Politoed, Slowking, Lanturn, and Lunatone for those who opted for HP or EQ over Surf. CB Normals still kills it as does fighting and rock moves. It's a good defense support, but not threatening or unwallable enough to be BL, SERIOUSLY. It'll be overshadowed by the more versatile Lapras (T-bolt, Perish Song, Sing, Confuse Ray, etc)

Just like Walrein, Cradily imo is not overpowering or supportive enough to be BL. All it does is absorb hits and maybe poison things if it has Toxic. Nothing compared to defensive capabilities of Cloyster combined with its Spikes. (Which is why I actually think CLoyster is worthy enough to be BL). No one would seriously choose Cradily as their sole BL unless they were in desperate need of an electric resist that doesn't die to Fearows, in expense of their BL slot and a slot in their team that could've been used for a much more elaborate offense or support.

In my experience, Ursaring did worse in endurance and bashing hits compared to Machamp, so putting Ursaring up to OU with Machamp BL doesn't sound reasonbale to me. If Ursaring goes OU, then Machamp should go OU as well, with mini-Ursa that is effectively Granbull going up to BL x_x Yea, seems kinda outrageous.

[COalex]

Moltres belongs in BL imo, Tentacruel still stops it as does anything with Flash Fire.

[Nate]

No legendaries in SF.

Then again, I need to remember I'm taking a backseat this year.

Historically, no legendaries in SF.

[Slobroking]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Ok, after my blunder I didn't want to post, but..

Walrein has some pretty solid counters...including CM Golduck, Hypno, Grumpig, Feraligatr, Tentacruel, Politoed, Slowking, Lanturn, and Lunatone for those who opted for HP or EQ over Surf. CB Normals still kills it as does fighting and rock moves. It's a good defense support, but not threatening or unwallable enough to be BL, SERIOUSLY. It'll be overshadowed by the more versatile Lapras (T-bolt, Perish Song, Sing, Confuse Ray, etc)

Just like Walrein, Cradily imo is not overpowering or supportive enough to be BL. All it does is absorb hits and maybe poison things if it has Toxic. Nothing compared to defensive capabilities of Cloyster combined with its Spikes. (Which is why I actually think CLoyster is worthy enough to be BL). No one would seriously choose Cradily as their sole BL unless they were in desperate need of an electric resist that doesn't die to Fearows, in expense of their BL slot and a slot in their team that could've been used for a much more elaborate offense or support.

In my experience, Ursaring did worse in endurance and bashing hits compared to Machamp, so putting Ursaring up to OU with Machamp BL doesn't sound reasonbale to me. If Ursaring goes OU, then Machamp should go OU as well, with mini-Ursa that is effectively Granbull going up to BL x_x Yea, seems kinda outrageous.

Fighting is resisted by nearly everything, Ursaring isn't with it's STAB Return, HP Ghost and Earthquake and has Swords Dance as well.

[cookie]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Ok, after my blunder I didn't want to post, but..

Walrein has some pretty solid counters...including CM Golduck, Hypno, Grumpig, Feraligatr, Tentacruel, Politoed, Slowking, Lanturn, and Lunatone for those who opted for HP or EQ over Surf. CB Normals still kills it as does fighting and rock moves. It's a good defense support, but not threatening or unwallable enough to be BL, SERIOUSLY. It'll be overshadowed by the more versatile Lapras (T-bolt, Perish Song, Sing, Confuse Ray, etc)

Golduck can't even touch Walrein unless it has Psychic; even then Walrein is bulky enough to kill it first with Earthquake. Hypnosis does not help since many Walreins run Sleep Talk. The only way Hypno kills Walrein is with Calm Mind+Wish, and even that takes a while with Hypno's lacklustre Special Attack. Tentacruel and Lanturn die to Earthquake unless you switch the latter in on Ice Beam. Generally the Sleep Talk versions are very tough to take down unless you have something that is very sturdy and/or can start hitting hard quickly.

All the common rock users are Rock-type as well (Golem, Aggron), which die to any of Walrein's moves.

Lapras is even bulkier than Walrein but its attacking movepool doesn't give as much coverage (Tentacruel has a shot at setting up against it with that high Special Defense). Hypno/Grumpig/Lanturn piss on it, but it is harder to kill with CB attacks.

[husk]

After a cm golduck is 3-4hko'ing walrein with psychic or HP: electric/grass while walrein is 5 or 6 hit ko'ing with quake...

The walrein in your example appears to have: rest/talk/ib/eq
If golduck puts it to sleep it has a pretty great shot at grabbing 6 CMs before walrein gets it to even 50%. Golduck can use surf to kill it in that case...

That's a really specific situation but anyway walrein can't touch other bulky waters if it has eq (rest/talk/ib being the other moves) and if it has toxic over eq it can't touch tenta, lanturn, and other waters with rest.

Sleeptalking walreins have their options limited so it can't touch a lot of things...if walrein doesn't have sleep talk but has rest it can just be statused and used as set up material and if it doesn't have rest just beat it down/status it. Walrein has a lot of trouble switching into things.

[Mr.E]

Update on usable NFEs: Haunter.