the "mop" issue...

[Roy]

alright guys, recent dick-like posts by mop and general rebelliousness to our rules makes me wonder if he is "getting off the hook" too easily...not only does he carry no auth with him, but he is recently parading around stark like some sort of god immune to our rules. this has sort of been discussed on irc already but i think he is getting out of hand and it is a piss off.

thoughts?

[Synre]

I'm pretty sure he said he wasn't going to post until one of his infractions expire since chaos giving him that 2 pointer put him into 'I could be banned' which removes his Inside Scoop/DP Analyses access. I looked through the first two pages in his post history and I think I found four posts that were pretty clear trolling that didn't get infracted; I'm definitely going to be keeping an eye on him if he keeps posting since he seems to have gotten away with more than enough already.

[Jumpman16**]

i hope most of us know how i feel about mop by now, he takes some sort of pride in being too stubborn to change his ways, and now he's making us look bad both by association with the badge and by the decisions we often have to make to let his shit slide

[Misty**]

i've already informed him that if he gets banned, i am stripping his badge. there is no reason for an emblem of respect to be given to a banned user.

[Aeolus]

I agree that he's been let off too many times in the past... but I've been just as guilty of doing that as anyone else, so I'm not going to point any fingers.

For now, I'm hoping that his "I could be banned" status will serve as the wake up call he needs to shape up. If it does not, he will add yet another infraction to his account and end up banned. Let's treat him like every other user and let the infraction system do its thing.

[Jumpman16**]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeolus

I agree that he's been let off too many times in the past... but I've been just as guilty of doing that as anyone else, so I'm not going to point any fingers.

For now, I'm hoping that his "I could be banned" status will serve as the wake up call he needs to shape up. If it does not, he will add yet another infraction to his account and end up banned. Let's treat him like every other user and let the infraction system do its thing.

the thing is, synre's right about what mop said:

[17:00] <MoP> eh well i'm not posting in stark again until i think
[17:00] <MoP> september 6th
[17:00] <Teifu> truly a pity

this is as literal as "circumventing the system" as you can get. he has been attempting to fly under the general radar and get away with shit for what two years now, for the very first time he thought it was a good idea to sass me late in 05 when he joined whenever it was. this is just the latest in a string of dishonorable-discharge-worthy shit so long that unfortunately (fortunately?) most of you don't know just how long it is

[david stone]

Yeah, I'm guilty of being too lenient with him, too. I'll keep an eye out for everyone, regardless of their status.

[gene]

I hope that he really shapes up this time. He's been getting carried away sometimes, I agree.

[Aeolus]

I can see, Jump, how you might find it annoying that he chooses to wait three weeks to post rather than change his ways... but I wouldn't really call it circumventing the system. I mean, if he sticks to that pledge of not posting, it is just as good as a three week ban. If he screws up again after that, he will get another infraction and will endure another self imposed exile for another two months.

I dunno, I'm just a big proponent of using the infraction system and applying it consistently. MoP has a lot of personal history with all of us... but I don't think that should have an impact on how we choose to deal with him going forward.

On a separate note, if we decide that we don't want to give certain users the option of "waiting out" their infractions, we could introduce permanent infractions that would only lose their teeth if they are reversed by an admin.

[Jumpman16**]

And I think that, in cases such as this, hard-and-fast rules fail when someone is as determined and willing to slip through loopholes as MoP is. He will literally post something so borderline "flame" that it will be tough for anyone to infract him for it, but it's so annoying because you KNOW he know what he's doing. He's been doing this shit since he joined, seriously, and that's why I can't stand him.

Past history indeed needs to be factored in more than the infraction system can currently — he's been bending and breaking the rules for much longer than the infraction system has been put into place. There is absolutely no reason in my mind that he should be treated the same way as others...especially given the "shame to badgeholders" dynamic.

[Kumar]

I honestly like mop most of the time. He's helpful, but probably for the wrong reasons (postcount). It's just that his behaviour is so inappropriate and crass at times, and the fact that he thinks he's above the rules annoys me greatly. He's probably a lost cause, but I really think there's room for improvement (2 years down the line maybe).

[Aeolus]

I think the solution is just to infract the hell out of all his "testing the waters" posts going forward. A short forum ban may go a long way toward making him understand that we mean business. I just think that it would be inconsistent with our previous actions since we've so far allowed him to accumulate enough infractions to enter the I could be banned usergroup.

[Jumpman16**]

also

Originally Posted by Fat Aeolus

I agree that he's been let off too many times in the past... but I've been just as guilty of doing that as anyone else, so I'm not going to point any fingers

contained in this sentence, along with the modesty which makes you a pleasure to work with, is a big part of "the 'mop' issue" as well: even if we were to quantify it, even if the points associated with all of his infractions were to expire, and some time from now you or someone like avatar or phuq were to "lose it" for one post, i truly feel that it should be treated differently than if mop were to post the same thing, even if you and mop, at the time, have clean slates.

over the years, mop has accrued the kinds of "infractions" that will NEVER expire, in my mind. that's the only "fault" of a hard-and-fast infraction system as it is, but that is why sites have moderators and administrators who can exercise their judgment in cases like this that are, to me, not just black and white (a good example is evident in the rules you just wrote, regarding the topic bumping issue). like, lol if some were to call, say, Flameout a "dumb nigger" in a post (somebody besides me, obviously i am swiftly banning anyone who would say that to me lol), and mean it, I don't think that's just a "2 Point Insulted Other Member" infraction, because behind that insult is much more vitriol than a "you make the worst teams I've ever seen" insult. These are the kinds of things we as mods and admins must handle on a case-by-case basis, and mops is a case i'm fucking tired of dealing with

whatever this is long and i think you get my point

[Aeolus]

yeah, I do understand. And I don't wish to stand in the way if you really feel strongly that MoP should be banned (for how long?) rather than letting the infractions take their course. I was just offering up an opinion with my posts, not issuing an edict of clemency.

[DM]

I don't think he should be banned outright. We have the infraction system in place, to bypass that to ban him would reflect poorly on us. If he continues his bullshit, he'll get weeded out naturally.

[Surgo]

I think MoP is absolutely hilarious, and I don't really see the problem.

[DM]

Originally Posted by Fat Surgo

I think MoP is absolutely hilarious, and I don't really see the problem.

I personally have never had a problem with him either, but I think it stems from the fact that I have nothing to do with pokemon. I hear he can be an arrogant prick sometimes, and he has been banned before.

[Jumpman16**]

i dont really think mop should be outright banned either, but if it's really the case that "we" have let a good number of his more recent posts slide then that's what kind of irks me in light of the fact that he's literally not posting anymore because of how many points he has

[DM]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

i dont really think mop should be outright banned either, but if it's really the case that "we" have let a good number of his more recent posts slide then that's what kind of irks me in light of the fact that he's literally not posting anymore because of how many points he has

I think the fact that he won't post again until he's into more safe territory points to the fact that the infraction system is working.

[Aeolus]

that's how I feel about it DM.

[Misty**]

we just need to make sure that we don't let him start pulling this crap again once he decides to continue posting.

[Jumpman16**]

i agree, and that's the gist of what i'm saying when i say "hypothetically": he will wait 1½ weeks or whatever till he posts again in stark, then he will undoubtedly turn into mop again because he can't stand the notion of someone promoting his moveset or team without berating them on a public forum. so he will "coyly" insult them, knowing full well that whatever he does will not garner more than a 1 point infraction because it won't be blatant. he literally said in that irc session referenced above: "i dont insult them directly" so that, along with my watching of mop since he first stepped out of line almost two years ago when he disrespected skarm and myself, is what i'm basing this on.

and i say "hypothetically" because this will invariably happen and it's not really a hypothesis at all — i would pretty much bet my life on mop screwing up again. like i alluded to above when i said most of you may not know that he has actually been doing this shit since he first joined almost two years ago, mop has more than proven that he is neither able nor willing to change. the icing on this shit cake is this: the very notion that he has a badge now that probably makes him think the people he berates will see him as some kind of authority figure with whom they should agree, or at the very least against whom they should hesitate to defend themselves, is borderline infuriating when you consider one of the knocks against smogon is the mods/admins being unfair and having double standards.

that should be reason enough for you all to "agree with me" when i propose that the next time one of his posts even has a hint of condescension or insult to it, he should be banned for at least a month. we had to do this last year. i won't even begin to argue that i don't have a grudge against him but i would hope that these events that have transpired, and the literal fact that he's been doing this shit for almost two years, are a testament to the huge probability that mop is a big problem, if not a testament that mine is a rationally and well-held grudge after all.

[cloud]

yeah, i love mop and all but if he keeps this shit up he has to be taught a lesson.

[Mekkah**]

bumping this because of relevance

If MoP could skate the line like this irl he sure as hell would win a championship somewhere. His posts recently are like right inbetween "being a huge ass dick" and "being a huge ass dick but within the rules".

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...2&postcount=29

I'm unsure to infract this or not, but I'm pretty sure a normal user wouldn't get away with this and I sure as hell can expect some bitching. His most recent five or so posts are like this.

[Hipmonlee]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthr...314#post646314

This is a thread that serves as a good example for something I see a lot from mop.. That sort of post that leaves you thinking "wow are you seriously that stupid".

Thinking about it now I probably should have deleted those posts.. I am out of moderating practice I guess..

Have a nice day.