Smogon's First "Create a Pokemon": Poll 3 - Page 7

**Mario With Lasers** · Dec 11th, 2007, 1:13:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Hawk

It would be broken to have Megahorn and Compound Eyes - the accuracy problem is to balance it. Besides, how is a moth going to use a "horn" against anything? I'm fairly confident moths have no horns.

@ futuresuperstar and Mario With Lasers - Why are we giving a moth Fighting-Type moves again? (Reversal/Brick Break/Aura Sphere) And Electric Moves to a Bug/Ice type at all? (Thunderbolt/Discharge/Charge Beam)

The reason for Discharge was because I thought at first a moth who lives at the top of a snow mountain would be closer to the storm clouds and would have some control over lightning. No real reason besides that, I admit. And it's a pretty flawed reason, now that I think about it again.

And Reversal was there just because Yanmega learns it too, but lol, Yanmega isn't even a Dragonfly... So yeah, the moth should only get it if it's some kind of humanoid moth. Otherwise, ditch them.

But I'm still for Discharge.

And gosh, people really want a mixed sweeper. For now, I don't see the moth going too well as a mixed, while the spider Crossellia posted was great for it.

Tauros · Dec 11th, 2007, 1:47:42 PM

special sweeper would make it to yanmega like supporter or phisical swweper

Hyra · Dec 11th, 2007, 3:41:14 PM

Eric, I don't understand how 2 4x weaks and a 4x weak to Stealth Rock are not more crippling than a Pursuit weak or the ability to be walled? Almost every pokemon in OU has 1 certain solid counter, so being walled isn't too much of a disadvantage. Right now, it seems you want to go the jack-of-all trades, master of none route. You are keeping this thing from having OU stats where it needs them, and are content with Kingdra like mediocrity.

Fine, I can make this thing have less than 500 BST and still be a threat.

37 HP / 90 Atk / 50 Def / 125 SAtk / 50 SDef / 123 Speed. Wow, that's only 475 BST.

Also, Specs Alakazam can 2HKO Blissey with Focus Blast or simply Trick Choice Specs onto it, making Blissey a very risky counter to Alakzam.

You complain about this being too powerful, it lacks Infernape's godly Fighting Stab. That hits Super Effective on all the major Special walls, allowing it to go mixed with very little EV investment. This Bug/Ice Pokemon will not have the luxury, and it gets 2 switch-ins max, so it needs to avoid being walled, which is very, very bad for it.

I don't believe anything that only gets 2 switchins (Wish takes effect after you switch in) at most can be too over centralizing. It is hit or miss. Trust me, things like Dusknoir, Spiritomb and Suicune will tank this thing with ease. We could give it 140 SAtk and 110 Atk, they would still have the defences to deal with it.

Overall, you can't get too far with Bug/Ice typing. Its a cool typing, but doesn't have much synergy offensively (both resisted by Fire and Steel) or defensively.

Gothic Togekiss · Dec 11th, 2007, 3:47:27 PM

^ 50/110/50/115/60/125 = 510 base stat and lol I just love making base stat for things xD

Hmm....a balanced stat yet still be able to actually threaten something, tougher than it looks.

eric the espeon · Dec 11th, 2007, 3:55:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Hyra

Eric, I don't understand how 2 4x weaks and a 4x weak to Stealth Rock are not more crippling than a Pursuit weak or the ability to be walled? Almost every pokemon in OU has 1 certain solid counter, so being walled isn't too much of a disadvantage. Right now, it seems you want to go the jack-of-all trades, master of none route. You are keeping this thing from having OU stats where it needs them, and are content with Kingdra like mediocrity.

Fine, I can make this thing have less than 500 BST and still be a threat.

37 HP / 90 Atk / 50 Def / 125 SAtk / 50 SDef / 123 Speed. Wow, that's only 475 BST.
look i was not complaneing about the defences i think it should be a slightly (just slightly) more bulky mixed sweeper with atleast base 60-70 in hp/defences, more like
70/100/65/120/60/110
or
75/105/60/110/65/115

Also, Specs Alakazam can 2HKO Blissey with Focus Blast or simply Trick Choice Specs onto it, making Blissey a very risky counter to Alakzam.
ok good point, but Focus Blast has bad acuricy and not many 'zams carry trick (surprisingly)

You complain about this being too powerful, it lacks Infernape's godly Fighting Stab. That hits Super Effective on all the major Special walls, allowing it to go mixed with very little EV investment.
yes i agree with this
This Bug/Ice Pokemon will not have the luxury, and it gets 2 switch-ins max, so it needs to avoid being walled, which is very, very bad for it.
it has bug to hurt cressy and some others but i agree

I don't believe anything that only gets 2 switchins (Wish takes effect after you switch in) at most can be too over centralizing (SR is not on all teams and nor is it up all the time, with proper team suport the SR's can be cleard. Though i think we can find a more interesting ablility I think that the popular vote will go to ice shell (imunity to SR, Spikes, Toxi Spikes)). It is hit or miss. Trust me, things like Dusknoir, Spiritomb and Suicune will tank this thing with ease. We could give it 140 SAtk and 110 Atk, they would still have the defences to deal with it (i supose this is true (mabe slightly exagerated) but the main problam i have had with your stat spreads is that they are too like a superfast glass cannon, i'm more kean on somethin that can take a hit from a wall).

Overall, you can't get too far with Bug/Ice typing. Its a cool typing, but doesn't have much synergy offensively (both resisted by Fire and Steel) or defensively.
this is kind of true but ice is the most overused type and bug is good for cressy, and hits zong nutral. the pokemon will probably lern EQ to take down steels (exept skarm)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat gothic togekiss

^ 50/110/50/115/60/125 = 510 base stat and lol I just love making base stat for things xD
can you give it a bit more defences/ HP (so its not to glass cannon like) and slightly lower speed, mabe base 110 or 115, it would still outrun almost all OU's

Hmm....a balanced stat yet still be able to actually threaten something, tougher than it looks.

***DougJustDoug***** · Dec 11th, 2007, 7:01:08 PM

I think these slightly-varying stat discussions are interesting, but likely in vain. Since this pokemon will be assembled by common vote, I bet it will end up with an insane 600 BST stat distribution, a movepool that Mew would envy, and an ability like Magic Guard that will make it more broken than anyone could imagine. I think people will do this in a misguided attempt to compensate for type weaknesses that are total fail.

Eric, you have argued for a pokemon that is not over-the-top powerful. You've advocated a subtle, nuanced pokemon that can work with a well-crafted team concept. While I think that is a noble goal, I think you are crazy if you think a design-by-committee will ever get there. We live in a world dominated by Garchomp sweepers and Blissey walls. This pokemon is going to be as OU as it can get. For every person that posts here and cares about pokemon theory, there are a dozen lurkers that will vote for Ice Beam, Megahorn, Uber-level stats, and Huge Power as an ability. I think there will be a tendency for this no matter what -- that's pop culture for you. But the glaring type weakness will just push it further in that direction.

Any notion of an artful, puissant pokemon that can only be appreciated by a learned hand... that's just wishful thinking.

Gothic Togekiss · Dec 11th, 2007, 7:09:06 PM

70/110/55/110/60/115, how bout that. Wuold actually like to see this on a post for kicks.

Cooper · Dec 11th, 2007, 7:14:32 PM

Jesus, I can't even leave for one day without getting bogged down by posts.

I suppose the next poll is going to be discussing the base stat total so we can finalize the discussion here.

***Jibaku**** · Dec 11th, 2007, 7:17:34 PM

Ability: Compoundeyes. Set: X-Scissor (or Megahorn) / Thunder / Close Combat / Blizzard Mixed sweeper imo, although I fear that it's going to be hard to counter with the current existing pogeys.

Rawbi · Dec 11th, 2007, 7:25:02 PM

Do we have a picture of this thing we're making?

I voted special sweeper. Bug/Ice, imo, harkens to snow ninjas. :o

nomargu46 · Dec 11th, 2007, 7:36:08 PM

bug/ice is begging for a mixed set involving Ice Beam / Megahorn, but i'd also love to see a straight-up physical sweeper with Ice Shard / Megahorn. oh well, it looks like mixed is gonna win out.

***DougJustDoug***** · Dec 11th, 2007, 10:46:22 PM

Instead of pretending that multiple 580-600 BST pokemon are not on every single team in the universe (Mence, Chomp, Tar, Gross,...), here's a stat line for this ice bug that stacks up with the current dominant players of the OU metagame:

70/110/80/125/80/115

That's Scyther, with a little more speed and a lot more special attack.

For all of you proposing 50's and 60's for defenses and HP, you need to get real. This pokemon has plenty of defensive problems without being OHKO'd by neutral attacks. Heck, with those ultra-low defenses, a CB Garchomp can OHKO with Earthquake, and this pokemon RESISTS the attack. Puh-leeze.

Musashi1054 · Dec 11th, 2007, 10:56:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

Instead of pretending that multiple 580-600 BST pokemon are not on every single team in the universe (Mence, Chomp, Tar, Gross,...), here's a stat line for this ice bug that stacks up with the current dominant players of the OU metagame:

70/110/80/125/80/115

That's Scyther, with a little more speed and a lot more special attack.

For all of you proposing 50's and 60's for defenses and HP, you need to get real. This pokemon has plenty of defensive problems without being OHKO'd by neutral attacks. Heck, with those ultra-low defenses, a CB Garchomp can OHKO with Earthquake, and this pokemon RESISTS the attack. Puh-leeze.

That's funny because I pictured this thing being a mantis with icicle-like scythes. :\

Gothic Togekiss · Dec 11th, 2007, 10:59:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

Instead of pretending that multiple 580-600 BST pokemon are not on every single team in the universe (Mence, Chomp, Tar, Gross,...), here's a stat line for this ice bug that stacks up with the current dominant players of the OU metagame:

70/110/80/125/80/115

That's Scyther, with a little more speed and a lot more special attack.

For all of you proposing 50's and 60's for defenses and HP, you need to get real. This pokemon has plenty of defensive problems without being OHKO'd by neutral attacks. Heck, with those ultra-low defenses, a CB Garchomp can OHKO with Earthquake, and this pokemon RESISTS the attack. Puh-leeze.

Wouldn't it die from a CB EQ from Chomps regardless of either having 70/80/80 or 50/55/60?

kamikaen · Dec 11th, 2007, 11:02:07 PM

I think the vote has been slightly split (as there are many more versions of tanker than attacker), so would one of those checkmark polls be more useful?

ultimifier · Dec 11th, 2007, 11:03:33 PM

SNOW WARNING!!!!!! i dont care what its base stats are, as long as it has snow warning i will be happy

MegaMewtwo · Dec 11th, 2007, 11:12:15 PM

If we do another one of these in the future, I think its appearance should be one of the earlier things decided on, so some movepool can be worked out based on looks, (e.g. if it doesn't have a horn, it ain't gonna be learning Megahorn any time soon) and its role can go from there. I mean, seriously, I can tell the majority of mixed sweeper votes were based on assuming Megahorn.

Hyra · Dec 11th, 2007, 11:12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

Wouldn't it die from a CB EQ from Chomps regardless of either having 70/80/80 or 50/55/60?

its resistance to Earthquake doesn't matter, it already has lost half of its life switching in. Honestly, this should be switching in on Blissey and Cresselia Ice Beams. In other words, unSTAB attacks it resists.

TaiwaneseDude · Dec 11th, 2007, 11:15:59 PM

That ice/bug spider looks wicked. o.o

Cooper, I would suggest having the 4th Poll divide down the three options for what this Pokemon's role will be like, because I voted Supporter at first but after seeing all these suggestions, I want it to be a Special Sweeper. (Obviously, it's not looking that way.) Just a suggestion though.

Gothic Togekiss · Dec 11th, 2007, 11:16:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Hyra

its resistance to Earthquake doesn't matter, it already has lost half of its life switching in. Honestly, this should be switching in on Blissey and Cresselia Ice Beams. In other words, unSTAB attacks it resists.

It other words, it doesn't freaking matters if it have 70+ Hp and/or (sp)def, it's going to die horribly anyway.

***DougJustDoug***** · Dec 11th, 2007, 11:20:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

Wouldn't it die from a CB EQ from Chomps regardless of either having 70/80/80 or 50/55/60?

Heracross is 75 HP/80 DEF, and takes ~55% from a max attack CBChomp EQ. That's with no defensive EV's. Metapod is 50 HP/55 DEF and takes ~100% from the same attack.

If we create a super-fast Ice attacker with Ground resistance that can't comfortably switch in on a rampaging CBChomp locked into EQ and shove a 4x Ice move up its ass -- then this pokemon is completely and totally FAIL.

Gothic Togekiss · Dec 11th, 2007, 11:33:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

Heracross is 75 HP/80 DEF, and takes ~55% from a max attack CBChomp EQ. That's with no defensive EV's. Metapod is 50 HP/55 DEF and takes ~100% from the same attack.

If we create a super-fast Ice attacker with Ground resistance that can't comfortably switch in on a rampaging CBChomp locked into EQ and shove a 4x Ice move up it's ass -- then this pokemon is completely and totally FAIL.

CBChomp(Adamant) using EQ on 104/0 Heracross: 52.29% - 61.77% SR added: 64.79% - 74. 27%
CBChomp(Jolly) using EQ on 104/0 Heracross: 47.71% - 56.27% SR added: 60.21% - 68.77%

Okay....image the same but for a little bug/ice friend and the different type thing.

***DougJustDoug***** · Dec 11th, 2007, 11:47:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

CBChomp(Adamant) using EQ on 104/0 Heracross: 52.29% - 61.77%
CBChomp(Jolly) using EQ on 104/0 Heracross: 47.71% - 56.27%

Add SR and maybe SS and Hera screwed.

That's why I think this pokemon needs a way to deal with that. There's been lots of suggestions of abilities to let this thing come in on SR. I certainly hope we pick one of them. Otherwise this thing is doomed against EVERYTHING after SRocks do their thing. Add some spikes and SS and I don't know if this can survive any switch.

IMO, this thing is begging to be a "Garchomp Killer". With the obscenely OU play Garchomp is getting, this pokemon could really be a breath of fresh air. If we don't give it sufficient defenses to fill the role, that would be a shame.

***DougJustDoug***** · Dec 12th, 2007, 12:23:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat MiyamotoMusashi

That's funny because I pictured this thing being a mantis with icicle-like scythes. :\

Here's one of the pencil sketches I did when kicking around the "Ski Slope" ability.

The head is a direct copy of Flygon's head. Flygon has goggles for eyes to protect from sandstorm. Seemed appropriate for snow as well. Flygon also has bug-like pre-evos, so the bug look is there. Plus, I just love Flygon's look. The rest of the body is obviously based on a praying mantis. I didn't give it ice-scythes, but it could be worked in. The ski concept worked better on this than I thought it would. Something about the long torso of a mantis is oddly sled-like. Anyway, I considered this a "reject", but I thought I'd post it since the mantis theme has been raised throughout this thread.

Crossellia · Dec 12th, 2007, 1:16:57 AM

So, I revamped the spider idea a little bit. I don't know if you guys even like it that much, but here goes. When I photograph the picture, the color fades out drastically so I tried to add some on my computer. Sadly, it's now really difficult to see the horn. It's an icicle horn which gives this the option to have Mega Horn. I gave it a bit of an X-Scissor look. As far as avoiding Stealth Rock, it'll probably have to lie in the ability. Or it has to go with the sled idea. This spider looks quick though.

View Poll Results: What is the function of our new pokemon?
Physical sweeper	21	10.55%
Special sweeper	46	23.12%
Mixed sweeper	87	43.72%
Physical tank	8	4.02%
Special tank	5	2.51%
Physical wall	7	3.52%
Special wall	3	1.51%
Supporter	22	11.06%
Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll

Dec 11th, 2007, 3:47:27 PM	#154
Gothic Togekiss Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,484 PKMN Trainer Hijiri at your services	^ 50/110/50/115/60/125 = 510 base stat and lol I just love making base stat for things xD Hmm....a balanced stat yet still be able to actually threaten something, tougher than it looks. __________________ Diamond: Rinneth (3222 2619 1334) Platinum: Remilia (5328 9611 0881) *White: Hijiri (3138 5947 0732) I can clone in B&W now. PM/VM if you need any. Everything I ever RNG'd is here What you buying stranger?*

Dec 11th, 2007, 7:09:06 PM	#157
Gothic Togekiss Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,484 PKMN Trainer Hijiri at your services	70/110/55/110/60/115, how bout that. Wuold actually like to see this on a post for kicks. __________________ Diamond: Rinneth (3222 2619 1334) Platinum: Remilia (5328 9611 0881) *White: Hijiri (3138 5947 0732) I can clone in B&W now. PM/VM if you need any. Everything I ever RNG'd is here What you buying stranger?*

Dec 11th, 2007, 7:17:34 PM	#159
*Jibaku [02:06] <DixieNormous> Rodan x pookar: Just Do It Super Moderator** Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5,909 Foursquare, a sprained ankle, bottlecap ninjas, and wallball	Ability: Compoundeyes. Set: X-Scissor (or Megahorn) / Thunder / Close Combat / Blizzard Mixed sweeper imo, although I fear that it's going to be hard to counter with the current existing pogeys. __________________

Dec 11th, 2007, 7:25:02 PM	#160
Rawbi Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 919 Coast to Coast	Do we have a picture of this thing we're making? I voted special sweeper. Bug/Ice, imo, harkens to snow ninjas. :o __________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rawbblegong Getting better at updating this. Really.

Dec 11th, 2007, 7:01:08 PM	#156
*DougJustDoug* Knows the great enthusiasms Administrator** Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,901 Houston, TX	I think these slightly-varying stat discussions are interesting, but likely in vain. Since this pokemon will be assembled by common vote, I bet it will end up with an insane 600 BST stat distribution, a movepool that Mew would envy, and an ability like Magic Guard that will make it more broken than anyone could imagine. I think people will do this in a misguided attempt to compensate for type weaknesses that are total fail. Eric, you have argued for a pokemon that is not over-the-top powerful. You've advocated a subtle, nuanced pokemon that can work with a well-crafted team concept. While I think that is a noble goal, I think you are crazy if you think a design-by-committee will ever get there. We live in a world dominated by Garchomp sweepers and Blissey walls. This pokemon is going to be as OU as it can get. For every person that posts here and cares about pokemon theory, there are a dozen lurkers that will vote for Ice Beam, Megahorn, Uber-level stats, and Huge Power as an ability. I think there will be a tendency for this no matter what -- that's pop culture for you. But the glaring type weakness will just push it further in that direction. Any notion of an artful, puissant pokemon that can only be appreciated by a learned hand... that's just wishful thinking.

Dec 11th, 2007, 7:14:32 PM	#158
Cooper Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,806 The sunny streets of Santa Barbara	Jesus, I can't even leave for one day without getting bogged down by posts. I suppose the next poll is going to be discussing the base stat total so we can finalize the discussion here.

Dec 11th, 2007, 7:36:08 PM	#161
nomargu46 Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 954 Pyrite Town	bug/ice is begging for a mixed set involving Ice Beam / Megahorn, but i'd also love to see a straight-up physical sweeper with Ice Shard / Megahorn. oh well, it looks like mixed is gonna win out.

Dec 11th, 2007, 10:46:22 PM	#162
*DougJustDoug* Knows the great enthusiasms Administrator** Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,901 Houston, TX	Instead of pretending that multiple 580-600 BST pokemon are not on every single team in the universe (Mence, Chomp, Tar, Gross,...), here's a stat line for this ice bug that stacks up with the current dominant players of the OU metagame: 70/110/80/125/80/115 That's Scyther, with a little more speed and a lot more special attack. For all of you proposing 50's and 60's for defenses and HP, you need to get real. This pokemon has plenty of defensive problems without being OHKO'd by neutral attacks. Heck, with those ultra-low defenses, a CB Garchomp can OHKO with Earthquake, and this pokemon RESISTS the attack. Puh-leeze. Last edited by DougJustDoug; Dec 11th, 2007 at 10:51:06 PM.

Dec 11th, 2007, 11:02:07 PM	#165
kamikaen Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,755 I'm unavailable.	I think the vote has been slightly split (as there are many more versions of tanker than attacker), so would one of those checkmark polls be more useful? __________________ It's been fun!

Dec 11th, 2007, 11:03:33 PM	#166
ultimifier Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,095 toronto, canada	SNOW WARNING!!!!!! i dont care what its base stats are, as long as it has snow warning i will be happy __________________ Highest Rank on Uber ladder: 1 CRE: 1746.436 99% of players whine about bad luck like prepubescent school girls. If you're one of those 99%, who just love to bitch, put this in your signature.

Dec 11th, 2007, 11:12:15 PM	#167
MegaMewtwo Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,398 Australia	If we do another one of these in the future, I think its appearance should be one of the earlier things decided on, so some movepool can be worked out based on looks, (e.g. if it doesn't have a horn, it ain't gonna be learning Megahorn any time soon) and its role can go from there. I mean, seriously, I can tell the majority of mixed sweeper votes were based on assuming Megahorn. __________________ Platinum FC 1720 0005 1218 SoulSilver FC 0002 5714 0239 White FC 0647 5294 3536 My solo trade thread! (closed) Brawl FC 2277 8065 9005

Dec 11th, 2007, 11:15:59 PM	#169
TaiwaneseDude Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 958 Hogwarts	That ice/bug spider looks wicked. o.o Cooper, I would suggest having the 4th Poll divide down the three options for what this Pokemon's role will be like, because I voted Supporter at first but after seeing all these suggestions, I want it to be a Special Sweeper. (Obviously, it's not looking that way.) Just a suggestion though. __________________ Brawl FC: 0473-7480-4249 (Gary) * Let me know if you've added me! FC: 3179-3401-3486 (Gary) Shop Status: The Garage (temporary shop) I am EV-Training For You! Click for details.

Dec 12th, 2007, 1:16:57 AM	#175
Crossellia Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5	So, I revamped the spider idea a little bit. I don't know if you guys even like it that much, but here goes. When I photograph the picture, the color fades out drastically so I tried to add some on my computer. Sadly, it's now really difficult to see the horn. It's an icicle horn which gives this the option to have Mega Horn. I gave it a bit of an X-Scissor look. As far as avoiding Stealth Rock, it'll probably have to lie in the ability. Or it has to go with the sled idea. This spider looks quick though.