np: LC - Smells Like Teen Spirits

[Heysup]

Originally Posted by Fat AlphaJolt

You forgot to mention Ferroseed, Physical Carvanha's BIGGEST counter. He can't touch him. And IIRC you are mistaken on the Protect mechanics. Even if they switch when you Protect, and you use it again, it counts as a consecutive use and you CAN fail, in which case you'll either die or take heavy damage. Also, idk if you calc for Tite used Eviolite, which I've found is his most common item. About Gligar being a counter, no he cant switch into Carvanha, but if its physical, he can revenge it because Waterfall won't kill him even after sr damage. For priority, you can still use Croagunk, Timburr, and Dratini. You can even use Quick Attack Elekid or Tailow, although they aren't the best in the current metagame. Carvanha has counters. I don't think Carvanha is broken, but definately a top tier threat to the metagame.

As far as I know (and Pokemon Online knows), you are wrong. Protect failure doesn't count, at least it has never failed like that for me.

And Hidden Power Fire easily KOes Ferroseed. Vanha is very weak to those priority mons, but later in the game is when Carvanha really shines. Not to mention that if you have to revenge kill Carvanha, it's already done its job. Remember Carvanha still plays as a wall breaker. This is a wall breaker with Speed boost, not just some quick attacker.

I don't think it's broken but it shouldn't be underestimated like it is.

[ENZ0]

yo masterful people use Crunch on the switch that is what I meant at least tbh. And, yeah I agree Carvanha is annoying, but not broken.

[Paradoxus]

I have always thought that LC had the top 3 Pokemon, Missy, Meditite, and Scraggy, one is pretty much every team, and the balance was even because one countered the other. But when you take 2 of those away, you just leave one, Scraggy. When you ban missy and meditite, you make Scraggy the most overpowered Pokemon in LC, and then you ban him. Now Pokemon can run moves like HP Fire and HP Fighting to counter other defensive threats easier, making them harder to counter. You might disagree, but my prediction is when you ban Missy and Meditite, your going to end up banning Scraggy. Then Pokemon like Houndour, Carvahna, and Ferroseed are going to be used much, much more. The problem is that if one carries a Choice Item, they won't have the bulk from Eviolite, and the other way around. So in summary, I do not want to ban the two.

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Fat Paradoxus

I have always thought that LC had the top 3 Pokemon, Missy, Meditite, and Scraggy, one is pretty much every team, and the balance was even because one countered the other. But when you take 2 of those away, you just leave one, Scraggy. When you ban missy and meditite, you make Scraggy the most overpowered Pokemon in LC, and then you ban him. Now Pokemon can run moves like HP Fire and HP Fighting to counter other defensive threats easier, making them harder to counter. You might disagree, but my prediction is when you ban Missy and Meditite, your going to end up banning Scraggy. Then Pokemon like Houndour, Carvahna, and Ferroseed are going to be used much, much more. The problem is that if one carries a Choice Item, they won't have the bulk from Eviolite, and the other way around. So in summary, I do not want to ban the two.

I honestly don't see this happening. In fact, Scraggy is a pretty good check to Missy, not the other way around. On top of that, when you take Croagunk, Timburr, Mienfoo, and RestTalk Koffing into consideration, they all outclass Meditite when it comes to countering Scraggy.

On the other hand, I can see this happening between Missy and Meditite. Tite already has limited checks, but imo is still fairly manageable due to it's speed. If Missy gets banned, that leaves Slowpoke as one of the only reliable switchins (still hates taking a Tpunch), making Tite that much more ban worthy.

[Paradoxus]

Originally Posted by Fat fatty

I honestly don't see this happening. In fact, Scraggy is a pretty good check to Missy, not the other way around. On top of that, when you take Croagunk, Timburr, Mienfoo, and RestTalk Koffing into consideration, they all outclass Meditite when it comes to countering Scraggy.

No the cycle is Scraggy counters Missy, Missy counters Meditite, and Meditite counters Scraggy.

[AlphaJolt]

Originally Posted by Fat Heysup

As far as I know (and Pokemon Online knows), you are wrong. Protect failure doesn't count, at least it has never failed like that for me. I could be wrong but I could swear its happened to me before. Then again maybe I do remember wrong, hey it happens to all of us lol.

And Hidden Power Fire easily KOes Ferroseed. That's why I specified physical carvanha Vanha is very weak to those priority mons, but later in the game is when Carvanha really shines. Not to mention that if you have to revenge kill Carvanha, it's already done its job. Remember Carvanha still plays as a wall breaker. This is a wall breaker with Speed boost, not just some quick attacker.

I don't think it's broken but it shouldn't be underestimated like it is.
couldn't agree more

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Fat Paradoxus

No the cycle is Scraggy counters Missy, Missy counters Meditite, and Meditite counters Scraggy.

Ok, but I still don't get how a Tite + Missy ban makes Scraggy more threatening than it already is. Some of it's best checks will still be there.

[Heysup]

Originally Posted by Fat Paradoxus

No the cycle is Scraggy counters Missy, Missy counters Meditite, and Meditite counters Scraggy.

None of those counter the other. They can't switch in and fend the Pokemon off for the length of a game. Missy can't take anything besides a couple Elemental Punches. And if Meditite switches into a Crunch, he's basically fucked next time you switch him in (unless you run Recover and lots of physical defense....sacrificing that awesome attack stat). Similar with Scraggy and Missy, but I think Missy does better in this case as well.

Are people running massive Special Defense on Scraggy? IIRC Scraggy runs 22 HP / 14 SpD, meaning a +2 Hidden Power Fighting from an Eviolite/Oran Berry Misdreavus is going to destroy it, almost assuredly with entry hazards (18 - 22 (81.82% - 100.00%)). Life Orb always 2HKOes unless max HP / max SpD.

[Nails]

Originally Posted by Fat Heysup

None of those counter the other. They can't switch in and fend the Pokemon off for the length of a game. Missy can't take anything besides a couple Elemental Punches. And if Meditite switches into a Crunch, he's basically fucked next time you switch him in (unless you run Recover and lots of physical defense....sacrificing that awesome attack stat). Similar with Scraggy and Missy, but I think Missy does better in this case as well.

I originally brought this up on irc, with the use of the word "check" over counter. Missy IS a fairly solid switch into tite. Scraggy is probably the third best switch into missy after stunky and munchlax, and it's pretty easy to fit on a team. It can avoid the 3hko from some missy who use less SpA and can dd and then 2hko with crunch. They are 3 of the top 4 mons and they all check each other.

Tite runs a spread with max hp max attack and the rest in def very well, and doesn't miss the speed that much.

Are people running massive Special Defense on Scraggy? IIRC Scraggy runs 22 HP / 14 SpD, meaning a +2 Hidden Power Fighting from an Eviolite/Oran Berry Misdreavus is going to destroy it, almost assuredly with entry hazards (18 - 22 (81.82% - 100.00%)). Life Orb always 2HKOes unless max HP / max SpD.

Again, it's not a counter people (this is not @heysup). It is a reasonably solid check in that it switches into shadow ball once and forces it out. Don't treat it as a counter.

[Crux]

Personally, I find Carvanha to be the most threatening thing at the moment. I don't think it is broken, but it is definitely a top threat.

I'm sorry, but Meditite and Misdreavus are not broken, in the slightest. They are good Pokemon, definitely, but neither are anywhere near broken. I think the Little Cup community needs to get its head around the fact that there really are no "counters" in Little Cup due to the nature of the metagame, and focus on checks instead. As long as you keep both of these threats in mind when team-building, you should really have no problem.

Personally I find Eviolite Mienfoo to be a strong check to both, not that it beats either of them one on one, but, through the use of Knock Off, allows them both to be beaten easily by other members of the team. Gligar with Knock Off does the same. It is true that there are no counters to either Meditite or Misdreavus, but in reality there are no counters to most things in Little Cup, purely due to the functions of the damage formula at level 5.

In my opinion, neither Meditite or Misdreavus are broken and they are both fairly easy to deal with, but that is just my opinion.

My two cents.

[Gerard]

If you take Meditite you'll make scraggy overpowered, but missy won't change that much, if you take scraggy, missy become OP, the same could be said about Tite and Scraggy, they cheack each other just like Ubers check each other, that doesn't mean they are not broken, DD is awesome considering you have great natural bulk + Drain Punch + Shed Skin, you have something that really doesn't die and already outspeed the entire metagame after a couple of Dragon Dances (and can easily crunch meditite or Drain Punch mienfoo/croakgunk/cotonee on the swich in and then switch out) and after one it putspeed any non-scarfed mon, he is also bulky enough to get one (and easil two) DD after stuff that is not really theatening (anything that doesn't have a SE move) and sweep entire teams

[Blue_Star]

I agree with Crux. I usually have more problems with Carvanha than Misdreavus, who can be easily revenged, and Meditite, who has hard counters (like Wynaut, Riguree) and ubiquitous checks (Misdreavus).

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Fat Gerard

If you take Meditite you'll make scraggy overpowered, but missy won't change that much, if you take scraggy, missy become OP, the same could be said about Tite and Scraggy, they cheack each other just like Ubers check each other, that doesn't mean they are not broken, DD is awesome considering you have great natural bulk + Drain Punch + Shed Skin, you have something that really doesn't die and already outspeed the entire metagame after a couple of Dragon Dances (and can easily crunch meditite or Drain Punch mienfoo/croakgunk/cotonee on the swich in and then switch out) and after one it putspeed any non-scarfed mon, he is also bulky enough to get one (and easil two) DD after stuff that is not really theatening (anything that doesn't have a SE move) and sweep entire teams

Like I've said before, you guys keep acting like Meditite is the one and only Scraggy check, when in fact it's one of the worst. A simple Crunch on the switch-in by Scraggy (which you even mentioned as the smart thing to do when utilizing Scraggy) is usually all that's needed to ensure Tite will be KOd next time by a +1 Crunch. Other and arguably better counters exist, so I still don't get how Scraggy becomes OP if Tite is banned. Also, you say that Tite and Scraggy check eachother. How is this even remotely true? Scraggy doesn't check Meditite in any way, shape, or form.

[Nails]

Gerard said missy meditite and scraggy check each other. Actually read the quote please. And with a defensive spread and recover Meditite can switch into Scraggy repeatedly. Since it resists Hi Jump Kick, the most powerful move you can use on it is a neutral crunch, and Meditite is a hell of a lot harder to switch into than Meinfoo or Timburr (hint: use gligar). Where do you get that Meditite is "one of the worst" checks???

[fatty]

Because it is one of the worst checks...

Mienfoo has Regeneration, making the damage it takes on the switch-in very marginal. Timburr has more bulk than Meditite and Mach Punch for a last ditch effort at taking Scraggy down. Croagunk resists both of Scraggy's STABs and is neutral to Ice Punch, making an Eviolite set with Drain Punch almost the perfect counter. RestTalk Koffing with Clear Smog + WoW just plain walls the fuck out of Scraggy.

I'm not saying that Tite is a bad Scraggy check, it's just that every single one of those Mons outclasses Tite at checking Scraggy, consequently making it one of the worst Scraggy checks.

the same could be said about Tite and Scraggy, they cheack each other just like Ubers check each other

Also, when quoting Gerard I was reading this part by itself, making me think he was singleing out Tite and Scraggy as checks to eachother. Sorry, I misinterpreted it.

[Gerard]

So you swiched, now you need to attack, scraggy can easily swich to missy, Mienfoo just lot half his life (HJK), and Croak didn't do sh¡t to Scraggy (and now they has to swich/SP possibly giving missy a sub (which makes stuky and munchlax take a wow and became crap or Miss just NP), Meditite is actually really reliable since he can use Zen Headbutt for a predicted missy (but then he'll have a horrible time if misspredicts), those three can have a great time even supporting each other, and if one goes, the other two have an awesome time destroying LC

[fatty]

Ok so now we're discussing situational bs? The credentials for being a good check to a specific Poke has nothing to do with it being able to deal with the opponents next switch-in. If you've force the Pokemon you're trying to check out, you've done your job, I don't give a shit if I can hurt the incoming switch-in because if I have a well constructed team I have a check for Missy as well. And even if I did care, Mienfoo has Uturn to get out of a predicted bad matchup, Eviolite BU Croagunk can Sub on the switch then Sucker Punch, and Mixed Gunk has Dark Pulse.

Also, I've yet to see a HJK Scraggy lately lol. Drain Punch is part of the reason why it's fairly hard to counter, it gives it a kind of reliable way to recover back health.

[Nails]

My original post got deleted so this is a rewrite. With life orb hi jump kick, scraggy can ohko eviolite mienfoo, and teams tend to fold against a +1 scraggy in this meta, since a lot of teams have stopped running scarfers (+1 scraggy outruns snover). scraggy has to rely on its worse stab to hit meditite with. mienfoo is a slightly better answer to eviolite scraggy, but meditite is exceedingly better otherwise. it has 11 more points in attack, it can hit the two most common pokemon with something stronger than toxic (technically meinfoo has payback but then gligar destroys it...). and the only way scraggy can win against recover tite is with two crunches and a ton of spikes... with a ton of spikes it can beat mienfoo too if it dd's i think.

i'll include a tldr since it's kind of a shitty post
basically, both beat scraggy, meditite is slightly less reliable but it far better against everything else.

this kind of rambled but as i said it was retyped =/

[masterful]

Originally Posted by Fat Nails

My original post got deleted so this is a rewrite. With life orb hi jump kick, scraggy can ohko eviolite mienfoo, and teams tend to fold against a +1 scraggy in this meta, since a lot of teams have stopped running scarfers (+1 scraggy outruns snover). scraggy has to rely on its worse stab to hit meditite with. mienfoo is a slightly better answer to eviolite scraggy, but meditite is exceedingly better otherwise. it has 11 more points in attack, it can hit the two most common pokemon with something stronger than toxic (technically meinfoo has payback but then gligar destroys it...). and the only way scraggy can win against recover tite is with two crunches and a ton of spikes... with a ton of spikes it can beat mienfoo too if it dd's i think.

i'll include a tldr since it's kind of a shitty post
basically, both beat scraggy, meditite is slightly less reliable but it far better against everything else.

this kind of rambled but as i said it was retyped =/

Mienfoo doesn't come close to OHKOing with Drain Punch, and can be 2HKOed by Scraggy if it switches in on it at +1, so I find Mienfoo to be largely disappointing. That said, literally nobody should run Hi Jump Kick and Life Orb on Scraggy unless they enjoy never setting up.

[fatty]

Well yeah I'd have to agree with you on that nails. If scraggy is LO + HJK, Tite is a lot better check to scraggy than some of the Mons I mentioned. To be fair though, that specific set has a lot harder time setting up and staying around long term. On top of that, not that it means a whole lot because every threat should be accounted for, but lo hjk scraggy is exceedingly more rare than bulky dd.

[Nails]

It's a wallbreaker more than anything that just puts a ton of pressure on the opponent. It can't sweep but if you play it right it can take down a couple mons. The surprise factor is really valuable.

[masterful]

I'm liking Timburr a lot these days. It's really bulky and STAB Mach Punch is so unbelievably pro it's not even funny. The only real easy counter to it that I see is Meditite, as Missy can't OHKO and Payback will wreck Missy like nothing else.

[Nails]

masterful... the reason no one uses timburr is that gligar bends it over and stings it repeatedly in the ass while penetrating it. gligar stalls out a +1 guts boosted timburr (taunt toxic)

[Omicron]

If Missy switches into Zen Headbutt, it will usually be OHKOed by the following Bullet Punch, assuming there is no Eviolite and Meditite carries Life Orb...

[masterful]

Originally Posted by Fat Nails

masterful... the reason no one uses timburr is that gligar bends it over and stings it repeatedly in the ass while penetrating it. gligar stalls out a +1 guts boosted timburr (taunt toxic)

Yeah no duh. This is not a new thing. The thing is, so many common things can take advantage of Gligar. Timburr is by far the biggest Gligar lure, at least from my experience, and I can usually double switch into Missy,and get, in most cases, a free Sub up.