Raikou Discussion

[fatsnorlax]

l 90 l 85 l 75 l 115 l 100 l 115 l
Raikou

Intro:
Veteran of Gen 4 UU (at least until the banhammer crushed his tail and he squealed like a little kitten), Raikou is back, and he comes with a vengeance. 115/115 in Satk and Speed means Raikou outpaces and decimates a lot of the metagame with his mighty STAB Thunderbolt and accompanying coverage moves. Raikou also has nice bulk, meaning that he isn't just a sweeper, he's a relatively bulky sweeper. Raikou does suffer from 4 move slot syndrome though, so it isn't all perfect.

Sets

Offensive
Raikou @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
Rash
Pressure
4hp/252Satk/252spd
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Aura Sphere
-Hidden Power [Grass/Ice]


-T-bolt main STAB, kills stuff
-Volt-Switch keeps up momentum
-Aura Sphere makes Snorlax and Porygon-2 wet themselves
-HP Grass kills Swampert while HP Ice hits Flygon switches

Calm Mind
Raikou @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Timd/Modest/Rash
Volt Absorb/Pressure
4hp/252Satk/252spd
-Thunderbolt
-Substitute/Aura Sphere
-Calm Mind
-Hidden Power [Grass/Ice]

-Raikou forces plenty of switches=free subs
-Aura Sphere can be run over sub if you like coverage
-T-Bolt STAB, HP Coverage

Choice Scarf
Raikou @ Choice Scarf
Timid
Volt Absorb
4hp/252Satk/252spd
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Hidden Power [Grass/Ice]
-Shadow Ball

-really, really fast
-T-Bolt STAB, Volt Switch momentum, others coverage

Substitute + 3 Attacks
Raikou @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Rash
Pressure
4hp/252Satk/252speed
-Thunderbolt
-Aura Sphere
-Substitute
-Hidden Power [Ice/Grass]

-kills Azelf, Mienshao, Cobalion, and others that would outspeed it
-Sub great attack blocker, easy to get up
-T-Bolt STAB, others coverage

Counters/Checks
-Snorlax/Porygon-2/Ferroseed if lacking Aura Sphere
-Tangrowth if lacking HP Ice
-Scarfers like Mienshao and Herracross can kill it

What do you think? Just how good is Raikou? How will its usage/effectiveness change in the future? Feel free to discuss the mighty Thundercat!

[kokoloko*]

Your OP lacks substance and doesn't really incite any discussion, so I'm locking this. If you want to revise it, just send me an updated version via PM and I'll reopen it.

EDIT: ok.

[TheStarRapper]

One thing that has always irked me about Raikou is that he has to run Aura Sphere with a Rash nature. Luckily, a neutral speed nature beats base 100's by a single point. But when you run HP ice on top of that, it's only a speed tie. So sad.

Still, his power is nothing to be trifled with. Aura Sphere can bring the pain towards new UU addition Scrafty. As was suggested by a Smog Article, I ran him on a Double Electric core with Zapdos. I actually dropped Aura Sphere for volt switch, seeing as I used him a scarfer and really needed the base 115 speed tier.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by Fat TheStarRapper

One thing that has always irked me about Raikou is that he has to run Aura Sphere with a Rash nature. Luckily, a neutral speed nature beats base 100's by a single point. But when you run HP ice on top of that, it's only a speed tie. So sad.

Forgive me if I am wrong but would it not still be able to outpace base 100's WITH HP Ice using the 30.30.30.31.31.31 spread?

[SJCrew]

It's unfortunate though, almost no one uses Aura Sphere. The speed and Sp. Def penalties are a pretty big deal. It's only really viable on the Scarf set, which just barely outpaces a very common benchmark (Flygon).

Basically, if your opponent sees you use Aura Sphere outside of Scarf, you are waving a death flag for their Mienshao or Cobalion to have their way with you. And believe it or not, Mienshao is currently more common than Raikou.

[TheStarRapper]

Originally Posted by Fat Ames

Forgive me if I am wrong but would it not still be able to outpace base 100's WITH HP Ice using the 30.30.30.31.31.31 spread?

You might be right, I've never used any HPs but the preloaded ones. SJCrew makes a good point about losing to the speed tiers of Mienshao and Cobalion, while of course getting outsped by Azelf while running rash. Even if he does outspeed, Mienshao's Life Orb Fake Out isnt exactly doing a measly amount on that uninvested 75 defense.

The bulk issue is why I prefer to use Suicune as a CM'er, and keep Raikou as a choice scarfer to actually be able to speed tie Azelf.

[2sly4u]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

It's unfortunate though, almost no one uses Aura Sphere. The speed and Sp. Def penalties are a pretty big deal. It's only really viable on the Scarf set, which just barely outpaces a very common benchmark (Flygon).

Basically, if your opponent sees you use Aura Sphere outside of Scarf, you are waving a death flag for their Mienshao or Cobalion to have their way with you. And believe it or not, Mienshao is currently more common than Raikou.

You could also use Aura Sphere on a Sub +3 attack set. That makes you much less prone to revenge killing. T-Bolt/HP Ice/Aura Sphere/Sub would work well. It's worth noting that Meinshao dies to a Rash T-Bolt 100% of the time after SR and one round of LO damage, so Raikou wins if she comes in and tries to break his Sub. Cobalion is hit extremely hard as well.

[fatsnorlax]

Aura Sphere muscles through normal counters... will update sets.

[Zarco]

SubCM (with the custom EVs listed on Smogon) is arguably the best set, as it's counters are counters nonetheless but subCM can set up on a lot and decimate most things after a few boosts. It's easy to clear out its counters with a strong fighting type. While other sets are good too, they compete with other electric types like Zapdos, with SubCM best abusing Raikou's unique mix of power, speed, and bulk. Not to mention inexperienced players struggle so much against it because they can't counter it in time to stop it from setting up at which point it can actually break through its counters.

[Random Pizzaman]

I don't know about Raikou right now. I feel like like it's right on the cusp of being a top dog, but there are way too many things popular right now that hamper its sweeping ability. The decline of the bulky water has lowered its usefulness, and given it less chances to set up. Snorlax checks every Raikou better than Chansey ever did imo, and pokemon like Scarf Flygon, Swampert, Rotom, Mienshao, Nidoking/Queen, Gligar, Bronzong, Shaymin, Roserade all check some or all of his good sets. Right now, I think it's best used as a hit and run attacker with Life Orb or Scarf, and even then Zapdos is stiff competition for a spot. And don't use Aura Sphere, ever.

[SJCrew]

Raikou is a top dog. Most of UU is slower than him and he does serious damage after even one CM. Bulky Water-types are still common, especially Blastoise, so there is no real decline. Almost nothing you listed is a check to him, good or otherwise. His problem is being revenged by Heracross, thus setting up Heracross sweeps. But that's 90% of UU's problem as well. Sadly, that isn't a joke.

[Zarco]

Substitute! And the SubCM set has the bulk to take a Jolly Heracross CC even when not behind a sub. SubCM beats Flygon, sets up on Roserade and some Shaymin, beats Nidoking, possible sets up on some Nidoqueen, sets up on Rotom, and beats Mienshao and Gligar. This leaves Umbreon, Snorlax, Bronzong, and Swampert (and toxic spikes) as its main counters. And you have 5 things to get rid of them.

[SJCrew]

Yeah, that's true. SubCM is his only hope of not getting Heracrossed, and I abuse it well. That and being relatively healthy while the opponent tries to KO you at ~90% like a dumbass.

Anywho, they're trying to change the SubCM over in C&C to make it less bulky, which I don't see any point to. Most of my sweeps came from abusing Raikou's extra bulk, which allows him to get up consecutive CMs, survive revenge killing, and get bulkier, harder to break subs. If you kill something with his Sub intact, the game immediately swings in your favor.

Also, did you just list Brozong as his counter lol. Go calc how much EQ does.

[FlareBlitz]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Anywho, they're trying to change the SubCM over in C&C to make it less bulky, which I don't see any point to. Most of my sweeps came from abusing Raikou's extra bulk, which allows him to get up consecutive CMs, survive revenge killing, and get bulkier, harder to break subs. If you kill something with his Sub intact, the game immediately swings in your favor.

SubCM Kou is never going to be physically bulky, and the shitty SpA investment spells its doom more often than the bulk. You don't even ohko heracross with +1 Tbolt (or at -1 SpD) after 2 SR switchins, while running max SpA lets you do so pretty easily. There's also the whole doesn't-ohko-nidoking-with-+1 HP Ice thing, meaning you can't set up behind a sub like you could otherwise (you'd have to go for the 2hko with HP Ice, which is easy to play around). This also means you outright lose to nidoqueen (you don't 2hko with +0 HP Ice). And both of those KO you through the +1 SpD after accounting for SR / sub /leftovers, if you were wondering.

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Also, did you just list Brozong as his counter lol. Go calc how much EQ does.

Let's assume the most likely scenario. Raikou switches in on that shitty, weak subroost zapdos that seems to be popular these days. It takes 12% from SR, 6% lefties healing. We'll assume that it doesn't get hit with any attacks or status moves on the switch. It sets up a sub as you switch to bronzong (-19% health, you are now at 76%). Bronzong breaks your sub with EQ as you CM (you are 82%, bronzong is at full health). You Tbolt it, as Bronzong EQs you. Assuming the bronzong set is most favorable towards raikou, we get the following:

0 atk Bronzong EQ v. 128 / 76 Raikou: 42.5% - 50.4%
+1 Raikou's tbolt v. 252 / 0 Bronzong: 47.3% - 55.9%

You never 2hko Bronzong. It almost always 2hkos you.

Of course, if you decide to play it risky and CM instead of subbing, Zapdos might just Toxic you. Or they might switch to scarf flygon and ruin your day. Or you might run into a non-shitty bronzong with some Atk or SpD investment. Basically, enough things will cause Raikou to lose in a Kou v. Bronzong situation that I would safely consider it a counter.

(Oh and I'd also like to note that raikou with full SpA investment beats Bronzong, which seems contrary to my point but hey, it's not the standard set quite yet)

[SJCrew]

Those are some good points Flare, but Raikou sweeps don't happen at the beginning of the game with most of the team at full health, since it will inevitably be worn down before it can work its magic lategame. It happens midgame while Roserade is setting up Spikes or something is trying not to get fried by Tbolt (any bulky Water-type) and allows him to get his sub up. Bronzong takes such heavy damage from +1 Tbolt even with the current spread that a love tap prior (like Scarf Flygon's U-turn into Fire-type) will leave Bronzong in no condition to do anything about Raikou. It is a terrible counter, and many people have lost games using him as their only defense against Raikou. Counters should be able to stand on their own vs Raikou. This is why I would consider Snorlax and Swampert counters, but not full-health 'can't take any damage at all or I'll lose' Bronzong.

Early game, both the bulky and offensive SubCM spreads would ideally Sub after forcing a switch and just Tbolt a healthy Bronzong, then switch out. If you overzealously take that EQ with the bulky set, you might lose to the revenge killer. If you take the EQ with the non-bulky set, you WILL lose to the revenge killer.

Let's assume that revenge killer is Heracross, since it allows me to segue into my next point: if you're behind a sub and Heracross comes in, just Tbolt. With the current spread, he takes 42.1% - 49.7%. Very likely 2HKO with rocks. The idea with SubCM is to get in on something that allows you to keep your sub before you go on and sweep or you'll be stopped short otherwise.

Both spreads need to be at +1 to 2HKO Nidoqueen. The only real argument I'm seeing for 252 SpA on SubCM is earlygame utility, which I will admit it has more of being able to go for slightly earlier KOs. But anything involving taking a hit makes it inferior to the current spread, like taking a Flygon's U-turn with Sub (allowing it to attack the switch-in), or luring in Hera without the Sub. Needless to say, this amount of flexibility makes me prefer bulky Raikou.