Favorite non-ubers you use in ubers.

[Furai]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

Espeon seems like a good pokemon; as it's worst nemesis, Scizor/TTar, are not as common as they are in OU.

This is such an awful justification. Ferrothorn is OU, and so is Forretress, and both are SUPER common in Ubers. Not to mention that Scizor and Tyranitar just got a ton more useful with Soul Dew out.

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

As for Scrafty, I don't even see the point of Rest; you have shed skin so fuck status and Drain Punch to heal off of the pretty massive HP stats of most Uber pokemon (looking at you, arceus, Blissey, and Chansey)

Like Scarfty's damage is even going to give you any HP back in Ubers, unless using like Heatran or something. And you said it yourself, Shed Skin cures status, so why not use Rest to get FULL HP back? Then you have 1- or 2-thirds chance to cure yourself.

[firecape]

Eh Scrafty barely works in OU with all the powerful special attacks flying around, I don't see any reason for it to do better in Ubers. Also fat chance of Blissey/Chansey staying in on STAB physical Fighting-type moves...

But onto my mon:


Genesect @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 138 HP / 252 Atk / 120 Spe
Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
- U-turn
- Explosion / Shadow Claw
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

This is the Genesect set I've been using. A bit unconventional perhaps, but I like it. Trickroom is to credit for the moveset but I changed his EV spread !_!. Honestly if you use Genesect like me, you will rarely be using anything but U-turn. Sure this set loses the ability to revenge kill DD Rayquaza, but in return for this one thing not checked it gains a lot of power and a bit of bulk. For those curious that is enough speed to outspeed max Speed Mewtwo. I almost never use Thunder and Ice Beam, they are just extremely unreliable moves to be locked into and extremely easy to punish. U-turn hits like a truck as Genesect often finds itself with +1 Attack. Believe it or not, Explosion probably sees more use than Ice Beam and Thunder. It's sole use is basically creating a dent (~60%ish) in Extremekiller, but it in conjunction with some hazards it has saved my butt multiple times. The real beauty of Genesect is a lot of the times entry hazards are the sole way the opponent can do damage to it due to its blazing Speed and high-powered U-turn. Shadow Claw can be used for Ghostceus but even at +1 it does only 45.9% - 54.1% so you gotta hit around mid roll twice to 2HKO. Still, you can basically choose Genesect to be an emergency check to either Extremekiller or Ghostceus, two of the most dangerous sweepers in the game, with that moveslot.

[Splendiferous]

60% with explosion is quite disappointing actually. How much will +2 espeed do when running a -def nature?

[Great Sage**]

You might as well use Iron Head and go for the flinch. Shadow Claw is an appallingly bad move on anything not named Arceus (which only uses it anyway because it's desperate for a physical Ghost move and Shadow Force is even worse), and the difference between a super effective Shadow Claw and a normally effective Iron Head is quite small.

[Electrolyte]

Originally Posted by Fat Furai

This is such an awful justification. Ferrothorn is OU, and so is Forretress, and both are SUPER common in Ubers. Not to mention that Scizor and Tyranitar just got a ton more useful with Soul Dew out.

I believe you misunderstand; I did not mean that they are not common because they are in OU, I meant that they are more common in OU than in Ubers.
And Soul Dew really won't make Scizor more popular, now that Lati@s won't have to rely on Choiced items as much as before. Being able to switch from Draco to HP Fire when Scizor switches in isn't exactly a favorable situation for the red bug.

[Blim]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

I believe you misunderstand; I did not mean that they are not common because they are in OU, I meant that they are more common in OU than in Ubers.
And Soul Dew really won't make Scizor more popular, now that Lati@s won't have to rely on Choiced items as much as before. Being able to switch from Draco to HP Fire when Scizor switches in isn't exactly a favorable situation for the red bug.

Why use espeon over xatu? I think I'm missing something...because I honestly dont see any reason to use it over xatu for purely magic bouncing. Xatu has much better defensive typing and isn't getting hit hard by gyro balls from forretress / ferrothorn on the switch in.

You're also going to have a difficult time preventing dialga / tyranitar / dialga / offensive sr groudon / sr deo a / sr arceus / sr heatran / stealth rock mamoswine? [i dont think anyone uses this through], from keeping those rocks off the field either way. It's also fairly easy for a good player to predict the espeon / xatu switch in and then double switch to something like specs kyogre, while you lose offensive momentum in the process.

Now with all that said...I'm really liking genesect + xatu in the metagame right now. With stealth rock being so important, xatu can really annoy stall teams and the main hazard layers in ubers, and you could also set up screens in the process, setting up another pokemon to possibility sweep. Genesect eases prediction with xatu, as you can simply keep u turning instead of risking the double switch. So i think these these two pokemon fair decently together, although with xatu you need good prediction obviously.

[Pokémon Trainer R]

For more offensive teams, Espeon is used over Xatu for its much more powerful special attacks (its Grass Knot for example deals significantly more damage to Groudon and Kyogre) and its ability to use Yawn and force any entry hazard users it can't hit effectively to switch. So for example, it can switch into Dialga and reflect Stealth Rock, and then use Yawn while surviving a Draco Meteor with Focus Sash. Espeon can then choose to keep using Yawn to make the opponent switch around a bit and rack up Stealth Rock damage on their team, heal with Morning Sun, or hit something on the switch with one of its attacks, depending on the opponent's team. Later on in the match, one can weaken the opponent's Dialga on the switch, by luring it in with a Palkia and hitting it with Spacial Rend on the switch, for example. Now that Dialga is weakened, it is within range of being KO'd by many different attacks, thus preventing Stealth Rock from being on the field. Yawn also forces Seismic Toss Chansey and Deoxys-D to switch, which is necessary or else they could just stay in and outlast Espeon/Xatu in a stallwar (unless Xatu has Toxic, but Thunder Wave is generally better). But for more stall-oriented teams, which lack the power to easily dispose of Dialga anyway, Xatu could prove to be more useful for the reasons you mentioned. All in all, both of them have their own specific niches and thus have their place in different teams. But I have tested them both thoroughly in numerous different teams though, and overall, despite neither of them outclassing the other, I do think that Espeon is generally the more useful of the two.

And yeah, Magic Bounce was never a guaranteed way to keep entry hazards off the field, but neither is Rapid Spin. And I generally find that having to utilize prediction in order to keep my field hazard-free is better than being absolutely unable to remove entry hazards as long as the opponent just has an Arceus-Ghost or Giratina Forme in their team.

[locoghoul]

^ Arceus Ghost is sent in. Do you switch to your phys tank predicting a SD set, do you send your spec tank predicting a CM set or do you send Espeon thinking it *might* SR?

[Electrolyte]

Unless you're using a Sun team, having SR on your side isn't the end of the world. I also don't see why that situation is caused by just having Espeon on your team. Espeon isn't a the best pokemon in Ubers; I was just pointing out why it would be used at all. It's just really useful vs stall because of the way it reflects status, crippling pokemon like Giratina and Lugia. It's still frail as heck, and it doesn't hit very hard. As a reflector, it is slightly outclassed by Xatu and MB GhostCeus, and as a sweeper, it is heavily outclassed by Mewtwo, who has a better everything stat (bar a -5 point SpDef difference)

[Mr.lol]

Espeon boasts access to yawn + baton pass, which is imo enough reason to differentiate itself. The combination is enough to send hazard user to sleep or force it to switch, baton pass eliminates double switch ideas and capitalizes off of Sleepiness by allowing something a guaranteed turn of setup, granted, if sleep clause is active your screwed. Also, when I tested espeon, its inability to switch into forry and Ferro was made up by its ability to somewhat handle dialga in the sun. Unlike xatu, espeon can actually tank a draco from support dialga and attempt to heal with morning sun (yes this leaves you screwed in rain and screwed if ogre switches in but hey its something). I personally prefer xatu, thanks to roost being reliable and it not being too prediction reliant to handle basically all spike users barring froslass and supportively oriented deo-a (uses rocks and spikes). Also I tried out utility wall deo-d and agility toxic deo-d yesterday, still effective, but needs more so def to help with kyurem-w, genesect sucks when you set up too :(. Cloyster is so boss this meta. It like single handedly obliterates the new pokes.

Edit, I meant you're

[mtr]

Originally Posted by Fat Great Sage

You might as well use Iron Head and go for the flinch. Shadow Claw is an appallingly bad move on anything not named Arceus (which only uses it anyway because it's desperate for a physical Ghost move and Shadow Force is even worse), and the difference between a super effective Shadow Claw and a normally effective Iron Head is quite small.

Shadow Force isn't too bad on SDGhostceus, since it forces switches and helps you hit Groudon hard, who stall usually relies on to phaze out SDGhost.

[Electrolyte]

Originally Posted by Fat mtr

Shadow Force isn't too bad on SDGhostceus, since it forces switches and helps you hit Groudon hard, who stall usually relies on to phaze out SDGhost.

I'd say it's more of a double edged sword. Opponents can set up on you between turns, and can then easily Substitute or something to block the effect (not that 1 turn of set up is really going to help many pokemon vs GhostCeus) Since Stall uses Groudon, it is not uncommon for Groudons to use Toxic- crippling you even more, because your main STAB costs two turns to perform and because you don't have Leftovers. It also isn't hard for other Ubers to Pressure stall your PP. This of course is why you run a coverage move, because just relying on Shadow Force is not a good idea. Still, it's immensely powerful, has no immediate drawbacks, and has 100% accuracy. It's high risk, high reward.

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Just pointing out that Shadow Force crushes Protect.

[locoghoul]

not really a "favorite" poke but Sand Force Hippo is alright on rain teams. Good wall against Ho-Oh in rain

[mtr]

And yeah, I think Deoxys-D and Wobbuffet might be worth using again with all the Mewtwo's running around.

[trickroom]

Skarmory walls Ho-Oh in rain as well. Hippowdon also takes more damage from Brave Bird than Skarmory takes from Sacred Fire in the rain. Offensive Ho-Oh's Brave Bird deals massive damage to Hippowdon 42.4% - 50.2%. If Ho-Oh burns you ( which is likely ), Hippowdon loses, not to mention Brave Bird has way more PP than Slack Off.

Leftovers Ho-Oh is safely walled by Hippowdon however, but you will lose in the end as you can only Roar it out. Brave Bird has more PP than Slack Off and you underspeed Ho-Oh so Toxic and Stone Edge are useless.

I agree with mtr on Deoxys-D, it is really underrated. Deoxys-D can outrun both Groudon and Dialga, Taunt them both, and set up your own Spikes as they struggle to kill you, unless its Offensive SR Groudon which 2HKOes you sadly. Magic Coat beats Deoxys-S while you can run more Speed to Taunt Smeargle if needed. However, I don't know what Deoxys-D can do to Mewtwo though besides Knock Off or Toxic. Mewtwo can just continue boosting and defeat you eventually. Shadow Ball does laughable damage to +1 Mewtwo. +1 Fire Blast will fry Deoxys-D in the sun :(

One of my favourite non Ubers pokemon ( obviously besides Gyarados ) to use is Skarmory.
I put it in hide tags because it takes up quite a lot of space.

...

---

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Taunt / Toxic

Standard Skarmory for Ubers but a I gave a little extra Defense. Getting 2HKOed by +1 Rayquaza after SR isn't fun at all, +2 Ghost Arceus Brick Break does laughable damage, Offensive Excadrill really needs hax to get past you and this set is not 2HKOed by Support Groudon's Fire Punch. Let's face it, Support Groudon is running Fire Punch a lot more often than Stone Edge these days.

Everyone is talking about Ferrothorn and Forretress when it comes to Spikes, but Skarmory has one big advantage over them: it walls every single common SD Arceus form, except Water Arceus in the rain. SD Rock Arceus can still 2HKO Skarmory with +2 Stone Edge though. It is the only thing not harmed by SD Dragon Arceus, and Ground Arceus will struggle to get past Skarmory. Roost is crucial and it can switch in on even things like CB Kyurem-B's Outrage. Fusion Bolt does not OHKO Skarmory either.

Next big thing about Skarmory is TAUNT and Whirlwind. It makes Lugia useless even when its hiding behind a Sub. Dragon Tail is not stopped by Taunt but at least you made Lugia unable to spread status all over your team or heal which is a pretty big deal. Finally if you really hate Gliscor, Skarmory can use Brave Bird to laugh at Taunt Gliscor. Taunt when paired with a spinblocker is really useful to mess up Forretress. Whirlwind phazes things around, allowing you to abuse hazards on your own and you will surprised, many things ( Groudon, Blissey, Arceus-Grass, Arceus-Steel, Ferrothorn, some Latias, Arceus-Ground, Lugia, Arceus-Ghost, I won't list the rest ) can't touch Skarmory especially stall teams.

After seeing Colonel_M's new awesome RMT, I tried out Tornadus-T and it is really a decent fit into most Ubers rain teams seeking a moderately powerful wall breaker.


Tornadus-T @ Life Orb
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 6 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- Grass Knot
- Superpower
- U-turn

Hurricane is a freaking awesome move to spam in rain. Although base 110 SpA is a little disappointing, Hurricane more than makes up for it and the confusion rate can sometimes help in a pinch. Unlike Gengar, Tornadus-T can just use Superpower to nail Tyranitar harder than Focus Blast can. Blissey does not enjoy Hurricane + Superpower either. Sadly, Dialga does not take much from Superpower, so Focus Blast can be used to hit Arceus harder as well.

The reason for Grass Knot > Taunt is that Tornadus-T will love to 2HKO Groudon and Kyogre with Grass Knot. In the sun, Tornadus-T is rather powerless ( unless you try your luck with Hurricane ) vs Groudon so Grass Knot is the best option. The good thing is Tornadus-T outruns Arceus so you can sort of hit Arceus-Ground hard with it, an easy 2HKO. U-turn hits Latias and Latios harder than Scarf Gengar hits them with Shadow Ball.

Regenerator is just a cool ability to have, and U-turn abuses it easily. You can spam some Hurricanes then U-turn out as they send in something bulky such as Ho-Oh. Taunt works fine over Grass Knot if you think annoying Lugia/blobs are more important.

Too long don't read, just saying Skarmory still works really well in Ubers. However, if you need a Spinner or Ferrothorn's Electric/Water resistances, you might as well use them instead. Tornadus-T is a newcomer to Ubers but it definitely has potential to screw up Grass Arceus and even Ferrothorn.

[Zarco]

Been using both Gliscor and Omastar lately.

Gliscor@ Toxic Orb
252 HP/40 Def/216 Spe
Jolly
Poison Heal
-Toxic
-Substitute
-Taunt
-Earthquake

This thing has a ton of utility- it beats a whole bunch of Uber things based on its speed an the ability to substall well, and it goos against ferro/forry/ttar/groundon so it prevents hazards. Try it out, it's hard to explain how it is useful, but based on its speed, typing, and good physical bulk it can deal with threats. Terrible 4MSS.

Omastar@Life Orb
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Modest
Swift Swim
-Shell Smash
-Hydro Pump/Surf
-Ice Beam
-Earth Power/filler

This thing is unbelievably good. Not even joking. It rarely gets a chance to smash up, but even without it it's a dynamite revenge killer and can check Extremekiller well with its defense and ES resistance. If you get a shell smash up, god help your opponent. In rain with a +2 you're rarely outsped and resist the major priority moves. Offensively, you can OHKO Kyogre after rocks with Hydro Pump after a boost. Yup. Ferro just needs about 20% prior damage iirc for you to OHKO it. Give this guy hazards (rocks and maybe a layer of spikes) and a setup opportunity and he wins, provided he doesn't miss! And he can clean up well even without the smash (does >90% to Arceus with Hydro Pump). New favorite sweeper ever.

[mtr]

Also, I'm really liking Hippowdon lately. Sand is really a douche weather in Ubers, and Hippo is one of the better switch-ins to Ho-oh and SDGhostceus.

Problem is that Hippowdon teams tend to be Kyogre-weak. Sure, you can throw on a Gastro, but then you're weak to stall haha. So really you're stuck with a Latias or an SDef Tina.

[SPEN18]

Hey. I'm a little new to competitive battling, but I've been doing it for about a year now. I mostly play ubers, and while I'm not terrible, you won't see me at the top of the ladder either. Anyway, I love King's Rock Cloyster. That high flinch percentage is pretty awesome. Shell Smash also means it doesn't have to fully depend on hax; it's power OHKO's a lot of stuff and 2HKOs even more.

Cloyster @ King's Rock
4HP/252 Attack/252 Speed
Jolly
Skill Link
-Shell Smash
-Razor Shell/Hydro Pump
-Icicle Spear
-Rock Blast

^'course that's a standard set, but just showing you

I like setting up on Gliscor, but I might get Toxiced

[Damo]

I used gliscor for ages, was my MVP. I crushed a guy i was losing to 6-1 and i came back with my last poke, Gliscor to win 1-0 lol.
I use:
Gliscor @ toxic orb
Poison heal
jolly
252 hp / 4 Def / 252 spe (max speed is important to tie with other base 95s and ensure you outrun non scarfed base 90s)
Earthquake
Toxic
Protect
Substitute

Protect is a must have move, as if this thing gets hit, it is dead. Awesome counter to groudon - immune to twave, earthquake. Steels counter it pretty well, so I run earthquake over taunt.

I also love houndoom and have built a team with him in it.

Houndoom @ Focus sash
4 hp / 252 SpAtt / 252 Spe
Modest
Flash Fire
Fire Blast
Magic Coat
Foul Play
Will-o-wisp

This is gimmicky, and if he manages to burn something or get rocks up or reflect dark void im happy. Generally is pretty crap though. Can switch in on defensive steels like forry/ferro/skarm and either use will o wisp on the switch or foul play to hopefully hit some uber with massive attack. Might try an arcanine coz priority is awesome :) I think id give it max speed and toxic to hit lugia before it subs.

Breloom @ focus sash
Adamant
Technician
4 Hp / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Mach punch
Seed bomb
Spore
Stone edge

Volcarona @ lum berry
Bold
Flame body
240 HP / 160 Def / 108 Spe
Quiver dance
Fire Blast
Hp Ice
Roost/Rest

Speed evs allow you to outspeed max mewtwo after 1 dance. Defensive to allow it to survive extreme speeds and hopefully burn with flame body.

[Tank178]

Many I use in Ubers that are not Ubers. Metagross, Mamoswine, Aggron, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Tornadus, Salamence. Those I tend to use in Ubers though they are not.

[barry4ever]

Poppy and I agree that this thread has outlived its usefulness and discussion has gone on for a while with user's rambling about useless Pokemon which aren't really competitively viable at all (houndoom, come on 9.9). There's a shinier more refined version of this thread here. Whatever, does not fit there should probably find its way to Project Uber Mk2. So Locking this. Thanks for your time.