General Metagame Discussion Thread

[ssbbm]

Originally Posted by Fat Steamroll

I only see sheddie being used as a switch-in to kyogre still (particularly the one's that don't have HP fire). I've even seen Quagsire's numbers increasing to wall kyogre even though encore is fixed at three turns.

no kyogre uses hp fire and gastrodon > quaggy although sub cm kyogre kills gastrodon

[Steamroll]

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

no kyogre uses hp fire and gastrodon > quaggy although sub cm kyogre kills gastrodon

I use Quaggy over Gastrodon just for that. They hold up about the same against ogre and Quaggy enjoys temporarily crippling it (especially CM ogres) with encore. Just the big problem is the set three turns of encore means you have to destroy it in one shot after you haze it the next turn (if you choose to do that).

[ssbbm]

i run a core of shedinja + xatu, and they basically kill off most rain although stuff like dm/sr dialga hurt it pretty badly /:

[blarajan]

How do you manage Xatu in ubers? Dual Screens?

[TM13IceBeam]

Kyogre can just run Toxic if it wants to kill Shedinja. =.=

As for Xatu, I honestly don't see why it should be used over Espeon, who has better SpA, SpD and Spe, access to DS, and so on. I only see Xatu as being able to switch in on Earthquakes, but other than that, really, Espeon > Xatu.

[Mr.lol]

Xatu can effectively run dual screens due to the number of forry/ferro's that get scared of it and run for the hills. Its base speed being a base 95 lets it outspeed that dialga and groudon so it doesnt really have trouble taking a draco meteor since it can roost the damage off after a light screen is up. It takes edgy stones much more easily due to his slightlier higher physical bulk.

Also tm 13 xatu isnt 2hkoed by gyro ball or power whip from ferro and gyro from forry that being said gives him a HUGE advantage over espeon. Roost is also > wish sue to no 2 move slots being used.

I think there was an analysis on him.

[blarajan]

I doubt that Espeon is 2HKOed by Gyro Ball when there's a Reflect up.

[Mr.lol]

well its not like that say ferro predicts the espeon switch and gyro balls. Espeon can set a reflect up but it cant survive the next blow or heal itself up.

Your calcs have been ordered as well :D:

gyro ball vs 252 hp espeon: (64.67% - 76.35%)

gyro ball vs 252 hp espeon behind reflect: (32.63% - 38.62%)

power whip vs 252 hp espeon: (55.69% - 65.57%)

power whip vs 252 hp espeon behind reflect: (27.84% - 33.23%) Can't set up a reflect then wish. Morning sun is too unreliable.

Forry's gyro vs 252 hp espeon: (62.28% - 73.65%)

Forry's gyro vs 252 hp espeon behind reflect: (31.44% - 37.13%)

Forry's payback vs 252 hp espeon: (59.88% - 70.66%)

Forry's payback vs 252 hp espeon behind reflect: (30.54% - 35.93%)

All these calcs assumed a neutral attacking nature and 0 atk investment with 31 atk ivs.

[blarajan]

Why is Morning Sun too unreliable? Run it with Groudon support and have HP Fire to obliterate both Ferrothorn and Forretress.

[Olijolly]

Originally Posted by Fat blarajan

Why is Morning Sun too unreliable? Run it with Groudon support and have HP Fire to obliterate both Ferrothorn and Forretress.

morning sun is reliable simply because of the kyogre common appearance in the battlegrounds (sand and...hail). relatively speaking, roost is a far superior recovery move due to its reliability.

[blarajan]

Yeah, but Espeon is far more reliable than Xatu. Obviously Kyogre is a threat but you need to be prorated to get rid of it.

[Mr.lol]

Not sure what you mean by more reliable, it doesn't get access to very reliable recovery outside of wish and is not able to reflect hazards back at the two most common hazard set uppers in the game in fear of being 2hkoed by a gyro ball or payback. Groudon isn't looking to switch into a spout or anything that can be flinged by a kyogre either. So the weather is going to take some time and switching to get back into sun.

[toybox]

@Mr.lol: On those calcs, you'll have to remember that Payback doesn't deal double the damage on the switch anymore so Espeon only takes a disappointing 30.54% - 35.93% from Forretress as it switches in. I don't think many Forretress still run Payback unless SubCm Giratino-O is really troublesome. Gyro Ball can still 2HKO so I'll leave it at that.

Xatu is pretty legit. It actually does some nice things with better physical bulk and Flying typing which lets it wall Ferrothorn (little bitch) and Forretress completely. All in all, Xatu seems more reliable.

[Mr.lol]

@toybox: I forgot the mechanics of payback but i suppose im the only person seeing rise of payback forry. Also apparently forry can volt switch to a scarf mon if he thinks that an espeon is coming in that can ohko it, but sadly thats a problem that both the magic cat and bird face.

It also turns out that both espeon and xatu (needs sr for the kill but cant roost off the damage on the switch, and is koed the turn after if it tries to roost) are ohkoed by CB gyro balls, thankfully its not very common, the suprise factor can be revealed before the switch in, and you can switch to a dialga/"insert steel type" since its not setting up hazards.

[ssbbm]

the other thing about xatu is that it doesn't run max speed because it doesn't really have any reason to while espeon does

[Virizion]

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

the other thing about xatu is that it doesn't run max speed because it doesn't really have any reason to while espeon does

That's not what the other Xatu supporter thinks..

Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol

Xatu can effectively run dual screens due to the number of forry/ferro's that get scared of it and run for the hills. Its base speed being a base 95 lets it outspeed that dialga and groudon so it doesnt really have trouble taking a draco meteor since it can roost the damage off after a light screen is up. It takes edgy stones much more easily due to his slightlier higher physical bulk.

Also tm 13 xatu isnt 2hkoed by gyro ball or power whip from ferro and gyro from forry that being said gives him a HUGE advantage over espeon. Roost is also > wish sue to no 2 move slots being used.

I think there was an analysis on him.

Unless he meant only Dialga/Groudon, as those don't always invest in Speed.

[ssbbm]

Originally Posted by Fat Virizion

That's not what the other Xatu supporter thinks..



Unless he meant only Dialga/Groudon, as those don't always invest in Speed.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did, since Dialga / Groudon are the fastest common Stealth Rock users in Ubers besides Deoxys.

[ReshiramBlackZekromWhite]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol

Hmm steelceus does the better job in my opinion it can wow and phaze via roar but if wow misses its kinda screwed. But, about the metagame itself, shell passing is considered broken in every tier, but I haven't tested it enough nor seen it enough to think its broken or even viable in ubers. Anyone tried smash/shell passing in ubers?

I've used Smeargle to pass Shell Smash. I run Jolly with max HP and Speed. I use it as a lead, then send out something good like Mewtwo or Arceus. Sometimes I'm able to pull off 3 smashes, and get lucky with how long Spore lasts. And since I have a White Herb, I don't care about the defensive drop so much. If you can pull it off, it works AMAZINGLY with any ATTACKING Pokemon. If you're using Moody with Smeargle, be ready for anything to mess up. You could get a +2 boost in Sp. Atk while lowering your accuracy a stage. But then again... you could pass max accuracy and evasion... but that would take a LOT of luck.
Let's just run the numbers:
Each stat has a 1/7 chance of being raised by 2 stages. Then, a different stat has a 1/6 chance of being lowered by 1 stage.
Let's just say you were passing to a Mewtwo. If you're using Shell Smash 3 times, with a White Herb, that means +6 in Atk, Sp. Atk, and Spd at the cost of -2 in Def, and Sp. Def. Let's just say you want a +6 Evasion boost, and want anything but Sp. Atk, Spd, or Accuracy lowered.
1/7 (Evasion) * 3/6 (Atk, Sp. Def, Def) = 1/14.
1/14 cubed is 1/2744, or a 0.036443148% chance of that happening.
That means that there's a 99.96355685% chance of this screwing up.
Which is EXACTLY why I hate MOODY as an ability.

[ssbbm]

moody is now banned

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat ReshiramBlackZekromWhite

I've used Smeargle to pass Shell Smash. I run Jolly with max HP and Speed. I use it as a lead, then send out something good like Mewtwo or Arceus. Sometimes I'm able to pull off 3 smashes, and get lucky with how long Spore lasts. And since I have a White Herb, I don't care about the defensive drop so much. If you can pull it off, it works AMAZINGLY with any ATTACKING Pokemon. If you're using Moody with Smeargle, be ready for anything to mess up. You could get a +2 boost in Sp. Atk while lowering your accuracy a stage. But then again... you could pass max accuracy and evasion... but that would take a LOT of luck.
Let's just run the numbers:
Each stat has a 1/7 chance of being raised by 2 stages. Then, a different stat has a 1/6 chance of being lowered by 1 stage.
Let's just say you were passing to a Mewtwo. If you're using Shell Smash 3 times, with a White Herb, that means +6 in Atk, Sp. Atk, and Spd at the cost of -2 in Def, and Sp. Def. Let's just say you want a +6 Evasion boost, and want anything but Sp. Atk, Spd, or Accuracy lowered.
1/7 (Evasion) * 3/6 (Atk, Sp. Def, Def) = 1/14.
1/14 cubed is 1/2744, or a 0.036443148% chance of that happening.
That means that there's a 99.96355685% chance of this screwing up.
Which is EXACTLY why I hate MOODY as an ability.

why are you passing moody and smash at the same time?

If you want to Moody pass, Sub/Protect/Spore/Baton Pass is good enough. :/

[blarajan]

Likewise, you can't even pass Moody =/.

[lordkira]

no no to moody

and why is there no garchomp thread/?

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

^You can create one yourself, you know...

no computer + typing on itouch = really hard

[TM13IceBeam]

^You can create one yourself, you know...

[Psychic Will]

I haven't heard much 'bout Kyurem. What's up with him?

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Psychic Will

I haven't heard much 'bout Kyurem. What's up with him?

There IS a Kyurem thread iirc.

As for Kyurem himself, he's average for uber speed tiers, nice STAB, but sadly one of the shittiest movepools a legendary can get.