Pokémon+ Luck-free metagame : Server up and running !

[Zacchaeus]

I actually like playing Pokémon, and unlike so many ungrateful assholes in the community, I'm not going to give Gamefreak a hard time for a few things that I don't really like about Pokémon, I'll just accept that that's the way the game actually works

And the obvious response: If I wanted a game with no luck involved, I'd just play chess instead

[Pocket]

This is pretty much for players who wants to play Pokemon like chess while still playing Pokemon. This is apparently not for you.

[skitz0phrenic]

Originally Posted by Fat Zacchaeus

I actually like playing Pokémon, and unlike so many ungrateful assholes in the community, I'm not going to give Gamefreak a hard time for a few things that I don't really like about Pokémon, I'll just accept that that's the way the game actually works

And the obvious response: If I wanted a game with no luck involved, I'd just play chess instead

What are you doing here then?
Smogon doesn't play purist Pokemon either, so please, enough hypocritical comments.

This is simply a metagame for those who value the competitive merits of consistency and responsibility for all of your mistakes and losses.

[kay-tay]

All of this sounds justified, I would never be on this server though, just through personal tastes, but one thing I should point out is about Sheer Force, which SHOULD NOT grant a boost.

Think about it, Sheer Force is a compromise, you give up secondary effects for added power. But, since you got rid of these effects, there is no longer a compromise, because even without Sheer Force you wouldn't see the benefit from them anyway.

[JimBob]

Why is everyone so up in arms about this? This is just a custom server, it isn't trying to take over standard. If you don't like it, you can completely ignore it and it shouldn't have any effect on your enjoyment of the standard game. Did you guys get equally angry when the CAP server was created?

[eric the espeon]

I'm probably one of the people who argue most strongly that luck is part of the game and should be accepted, however people who think in a similar way to me should be OVERJOYED that this server has been made, not complaining. Now every player who does not wish to play in the standard metagame where games are turned round by crits, speed ties, unlikely effects, and all that, has somewhere else to go. They can go to the luck free server, and play with like-minded people. Hopefully this will reduce the volume of complaints about the standard and luck filled by design mechanics.

So, play! Test and refine the mechanics, make somewhere that you don't need to manage luck at all, see if it makes you happy :)

[Zacchaeus]

Originally Posted by Fat skitz0phrenic

What are you doing here then?
Smogon doesn't play purist Pokemon either, so please, enough hypocritical comments.

This is simply a metagame for those who value the competitive merits of consistency and responsibility for all of your mistakes and losses.

I'm not being hypocritical, so you should stop being ignorant.

In the VGCs which are run by Nintendo, there are certain banlists and rules to follow by, so you are saying that Nintendo doesn't "play purist Pokémon", and you are also saying that the only valid way to play Pokémon is no rules (or Street Pokémon)

So please, enough trying to make yourself sound smarter than other people

[Darusare]

Originally Posted by Fat JimBob

Why is everyone so up in arms about this? This is just a custom server, it isn't trying to take over standard. If you don't like it, you can completely ignore it and it shouldn't have any effect on your enjoyment of the standard game. Did you guys get equally angry when the CAP server was created?

Well this server basically reignites the brightpowder lax inscence debate
Since the ruling on that people are afriad that this may become standard
That is a fairly legitimate concern
And this server is definately the result of the a large portion of the communitys dislike for luck
this server may have been made in good intention
But its not nessicarily seen as such

[PokéMontage]

This is pretty cool. While I am also an advocate of people learning to accept the luck factor as a part of what makes Pokemon, well, Pokemon, there is nothing wrong with trying out some new alternatives, especially when there was a lot of thought put into it. The fact that it could never replace the actual game doesn't mean it can't be competitive and fun. Plus, now nobody has the right to complain about the luck factor because they can go somewhere else and play the game the way they like it. Everybody wins!

[XienZo]

Guys, if Critical hits only happened every X turns without removing defensive boosts, then you would just use Substitute every X turns....

Also, the number of people who don't know exactly what the OP is proposing is appalling....

[Pocket]

^ Which is why I sort of dislike the "critical hit without doubling after 20 hits."

I prefer having a chance to score a critical hit after X amount of hits. For instance, after the active Pokemon received 10 hits since it was last out, it would have a chance to experience a critical hit every 10 turns thereafter. The stalling / set-up Pokemon should not have the liberty to know when the critical hit will take place - it should be a risk that they take into account when stalling.

Of course this sort of brings in the luck factor, but I think it is reasonable to punish somebody with a critical hit after 10 hits or whatever. At this point it is more of a "hax" that the stalling Pokemon did not receive a critical hit than not.

I think this change is necessary because otherwise stall and even BP chain teams will dominate. As for BPs, I suggest the hit counts to NOT reset when they baton pass to a recipient / another bper.

[kokoloko*]

This is really cool. It was a matter of time until it got done tbh, but damn I'm glad its finally done. I have a funny feeling that its going to be a bust though, since a lot of people don't quite realize that they play pokemon because of the luck factor in the first place.

Anyway, I still think you did a fantastic job. Don't let the 'haters' get you down.

[zyrefredric]

i'm interested on the metagame of this custom server, but nobody seemed to mention it, all just complaints

[mien]

1) Do not reset the sleep counter. What does this have to do with deterministic play?

Seeing as moves like Hypnosis have the accuracy of Spore on this server, balancing sleep would be necessary.

[Ereborus Nyx]

well, it does mean that gengar with dream eater would actually be useful

[Myzozoa]

The speed tie decider must be changed. Why should I lose the speed tie that my opponent forced by switching in a same speed pokemon? he forced what would normally be a random luck event, he deserves to lose said random luck event in a luckless game. i feel extremely strongly about this, just saying.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Innocent Criminal

@ThorHammer : this is somewhat similar to what I did with Scald, Flame Body and Shed Skin, actually. However, balancing Serene Grace is something I'd rather make after a proper metagame has been made. Flinching was removed outside of Fake Out, and it probably won't come back (unless the need for it show up during playtesting).

What I mean is to extend that principle to better preserve the game mechanics while still removing hax - so that flinching could exist without hax, so that abilities like Serene Grace could actually function rather than being ignored completely, and so that moves like Fire Blast wouldn't have effects that potentially completely change how they would be used. You mentioned that a goal of this was to make it similar enough to the existing game that people wouldn't have to learn two versions of Pokemon, and all of these things are steps towards that goal, not things that have any reason to wait and be implemented based on their effect on the metagame.

[Innocent Criminal]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Sorry for double-posting, but I just read your latest post. My recommendations earlier probably is not suitable for this project then. Sorry for the wall of text.

I still have a few suggestions:
1) Do not reset the sleep counter. What does this have to do with deterministic play?

2) Prevent status boosts on users with Contrary when utilizing formerly inaccurate moves (Hydro Pump, Iron Tail, etc).

3) 30% chances happen after 2 hits (not necessarily consecutive hits).

4) After 20 hits, it should be a critical hit (meaning negating defense boosts AND doubling damage).

Definitely consider these changes after substantial play-testing, but these are just suggestions to consider. Thanks for your endeavor.

1) This is obviously not set in stone, but I chose to make the initial release not resetting the sleep counter to balance out Sleep Powder and the lack of Sleep Talk. Should Sleep prove underpowered, I'll gladly make it reset again.

2) Viable Contrary users won't exist for a very long time, and Serperior doesn't learn any of these anyway (Iron Tail is now a Steel-typed Earthquake).

3) Already done ;)

4) This is very close to what I did, and I don't really see the need for it. Maybe if more people ask for it after playtesting.



@Everyone : while none of this is set in stone and I value your opinion, all of this is really theorymoning, so I won't make any more changes until people play more and start discussing the metagame : I put a lot of thought into this, so please understand that you can't ask me to code and test your suggestions when they don't have a big impact or there is no evidence they will improve the game. I had different ideas about flinching and Serene Grace, including the ones you're proposing, but I chose for different reasons to wait and see and I'd like this choice to be respected : flinching isn't such a big part of the game, so its temporary removal won't affect gameplay much anyway ;)

Originally Posted by Fat zyrefredric

i'm interested on the metagame of this custom server, but nobody seemed to mention it, all just complaints

This ^
For now, this topic is for discussion of the metagame only. If you have bug reports, complaints or suggestions, please PM them to me (I will answer to all of them) or post them in the development thread.


Really, on the actual server, I saw everyone enjoying this, so don't let these minor details hold you back, they will be dealt with in due time, and the only way to make it happen faster is to play the ladder and start exploring the metagame. I already put a new strategy in the OP, and will will add any new discovery.

[jagged_angel]

Sorry for theorymoning when what this thread really needs is some reviews of the impack of no luck on the OU metagame from players on the server. I will definitely get on the server as soon as I can to check this out, it's a great idea.

I agree that in most respects, a more balanced metagame will result from the changes you've made, but I am most apprehensive about the effect of the new 'never-miss' high powered moves.

A move such as Focus Blast are given a wide distribution for a competitive reason - Fighting is an almost essential coverage type these days. But the move Needs that severe nerf of 70% acc to avoid being overpowered.

How can we get around this in a game where accuracy is essentially no longer part of the game? A drop of -1 SpA to prevent too effective sweeping with 120BP 100acc moves? It seems like a reasonable tradeoff at first glance, but it is likely to change the game hugely.

Take a look at these two sets and see how much improved they are:

Thundurus
Nasty Plot
Thunder
Hidden Power Ice / Taunt
Focus Blast
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Prankster
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Infernape
Nasty Plot
Fire Blast
Focus Blast
Close Combat / Grass Knot / Vacuum Wave
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid / Naive
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

In both cases, the sweepers use Nasty Plot to sweep. But both used to have to rely on either a lower powered Thunderbolt/Flamethrower, or risk a miss. Both had to rely on 'Focus Miss'. With the current Pokemon+ server, these problems are gone. The -1 SpA drop won't impact either user too much, since both aim to be starting their sweep with +2 SpA. That means two uses (maybe two kills) of the 120BP moves before you're even back to no boosts. That means 3 guaranteed hits before the Nasty Plot sweeper has to deal with a truly negative SpA change.

There are other examples of sweepers that were previously hindered as a result of their reliance on moves with dodgy accuracy, these examples are just to demonstrate how much sweepers will benefit from the 'never miss' nature of this metagame.

In addition to this point, I would also like to know if these moves will be nerfed in any way, or are they the same but 100% accurate:

Stone Edge
Dragon Rush
Hi Jump Kick

As a side note, I am so glad that in this metagame Jynx has finally learned to kiss properly, I was worried about her missing her punters 1/4 of the time!

You should probably list Sweet Kiss, Confuse Ray etc. on the banned moves since their effect is nullified now that confusion is gone.

[Pwnemon]

I really don't think dynamicpunch should get the hammer - without confuhax or crithax on this server it's absolutely no different from Cross Chop - a Fighting-type EQ.

[Innocent Criminal]

Sweet Kiss is banned and Hustle now does nothing, looks like I completely I forgot about these ones.
Dynamic Punch is a hax move by design and only used by Machamp, who has Cross Chop anyway.

@jagged_angel : Maybe, maybe not, we can't know for sure with only theorymoning. If you want to prove your point, go dominate the ladder with these sets, which shouldn't be too hard as standard Thundurus is already considered broken by more voters than not.

About the moves you listed, they don't currently have drawbacks, which might change should they prove to be broken. Stone Edge will most likely stay as it is and HJK didn't change much, but Dragon Rush might get some recoil.

[Katakiri]

Spam Blizzard
???
Win game

[XienZo]

Originally Posted by Fat Katakiri

Spam Blizzard
???
Win game

How the hell would that work?

[malomyotismon]

The skill in coming back from a critical or miss is something this will lack and tbh I love a good challenge.

[Airfoil]

Stone Edge will most likely stay as it is

The thing about Stone Edge is because Game Freak made no good Rock moves for a reason: because they released Earthquake. Ground + Rock = Amazing coverage, and the fact that Earthquake is just plain amazing in comparison to any other move, with perfect accuracy and really good power for no drawbacks, they had to keep it from being too broken. I haven't done anything on this new server, so I can't really say if it's worth worrying about, but that great coverage is still something to keep in mind.