(Gen 1) THE Standard Gen 1 Team

[mjcarney]

What do you think is THE Standard RBY Team. From what I can tell reading the smogondex there are five standards

Chansey

Golem/Rhydon

Starmie

Exeggcutor and

Tauros

What would be the sixth? Alakazam? Snorlax? Zapdos? Gengar?

[Hipmonlee]

Alakazam.

However Snorlax is better.

Have a nice day.

[Pocket]

I think Snorlax and Alakazam are more standard than Starmie.

[133tSneasel]

I always have a Gengar on my team, to avoid Physical attacks like Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Double-Edge. Especially when Chansey is everywhere and they use Physical attack on her/it.

Alakazam over Starmie, unless you want a Water Pokemon.

[Borat]

I think Snorlax is on-par with Chansey/Tauros, aka better than the rest.

[Umby]

People overrate Gengar and it should no means be considered part of THE standard RBY team.

[Pocket]

The RBY Smogon Tournament really made me realize the power of an unparalyzed Snorlax with Hyper Beam. Just as you said, Borat! It is far inferior to GSClax, though, and I think due to Speed-based crit rate and its mediocre Special, it is actually more dispensable (or at least not in the top 3). I'd say Tauros, Chansey, Alakazam, and Eggy are above Snorlax, for instance.

EDIT: Umby - Gengar is one of the few things that takes nothing from Explosion / Self-Destruct, which is a huge source of RBY's firepower. It's nifty immunity combined with high Special lets it come in with relative ease and blow something up. I do agree that it is overrated, though.

[Umby]

I'm not not downplaying its general viability. It's just when I see lead Gengar trying to Hypnosis a Eggy, I ask in my head "Why?" I don't see what's so attractive about leading the "fastest sleeper in the game" when it's such a mismatch against more common leads.

[Lord Liam]

Tauros / Exeggutor are the best Pokemon in the game, Starmie / Snorlax / Chansey follow behind. RBY Alakazam is one of the most overhyped Pokemon of all time and probably isn't a top 5 RBY Pokemon.

[Pocket]

As far as lead match-ups go, Gengar is only disadvantaged against Alakazam imo. Eggy has better things to do than risking a sleep from Gengar. Gengar has 60% chance of sleeping Eggy, which is a high enough chance to make me want to switch my Eggy out and Sleep Powder later in the battle.

I personally like to keep Eggy out of the lead position, since I don't want it slept or paralyzed too early. IMO, Eggy is the worst of the common leads, because it has better things to do, and it will lose to Sleep Wars more often than not. In this respect, Gengar, being the fastest Sleeper, is one of the best.

Lord Liam - Zam is probably the only special sweeper who consistently wins 1 vs 1 against Chansey, which is impressive. 30% Special drops and 23% crit rate is amazing. It's not only a hard-hitter but a special tank; add Reflect into the mix and now it's pretty darn hard to take it out. It's a useful Pokemon all-around, creating opportunities for your team members. It shines particularly late-game.

Personally, I feel Chansey is a crutch. It's so useful that it's easy to be overly dependent on it, and that's when I get predictable, lose momentum, and start losing matches.

[Umby]

There's just something off about taking a 60% chance vs a 2HKO, especially on something that's meant to be used for its resistances/immunities. In the same way you say Eggy has better things to do, wouldn't Gengar have better opportunities to come in and do what it needs to? 60% accuracy is just not high enough for me to feel safe about taking 60+% damage. Maybe it's just me.

Also, I don't see where Alakazam is overhyped. You'll have to help me out on that one.

[Pocket]

To me blocking Self-Destruct / Explosions and coming in on a Body Slam & blowing up on Snorlax are additional luxuries once Gengar survives the Sleep War. And it usually ends up taking a sleep by opposing Gengar or sleeping opposing Jynx / Eggy at a cost of 60% of its health (but oftentimes alive).

Gengar has uses other than putting something to sleep, but it is one of the least powerful and dependable mons, which is why it's more acceptable to risk that 60% at the beginning, unlike risking Eggy or Alakazam imo.

This is why I agree with your overall statement that Gengar is overrated. Ultimately, it is the least useful, which is why it ends up being the front-line foot soldier of most battles. I do see players who do NOT lead with Gengar, and that is annoying.

[Destiny Warrior]

I use Tauros/Alakazam/Chansey/Golem on every team. My remaining 2 are usually Eggy/Jynx(more likely Jynx) and Snorlax/Slowbro(more likely Snorlax).

[mjcarney]

I'm so glad that my first post has gotten so much responses. I've since realized that somebody else had posted a similar thread here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25144

I'm sorry for the repost, it was unintended but it started this debate so it all worked out. I've since learned quick a bit about the RBY metagame which is weird because I bought my Red version the day it came out as a 11 year old. I'd just like the recap what I learnt about the standard RBY metagame to help organize my thoughts and keep the discussion going.

Firstly, Tauros seems to be the fundamental standard. This has been confirmed by the admins, posters, moderators. Nobody has suggested otherwise.

Secondly, every standard team has to have counters for Starmie and Zapdos, namely either Chansey/Alakazam and Golem/Rhydon. Yet not everybody has suggested using Starmie, which I thought was atypical because the smogondex refers to it as a "mainstay on most teams" which is why I included it in the original post. Also I thought everybody would be suggesting Chansey as the only true counter to Starmie but many seem to think Alakazam is sufficient. Whether to use Chansey or Alakazam or both is still up for debate. The whole Golem vs Rhydon debate has already been well thought out in several posts, it essential comes down to Explosion vs better stats. However, the question remains which is more standard Golem or Rhydon?

Thirdly, you need a sleeper and as far as I can tell Exeggcutor is the most standard. Gengar seems to be the second most standard choice. I wonder is it standard to have two sleepers or just one?

Finally, Snorlax gets a lot more love than I expected. I didn't think he became a true standard until GSC. I thought it was atypical to have 3 normal types on a team but nobody seems to have a problem with that. Also Snorlax is unique in the RBY Smogondex in that it's the only OU pokemon to have two standard movesets, a Fishlax and an Amensialax. I'm not quite sure what Fishlax means, maybe it means to fish out a powerful pokemon and use self destruct or hyper beam, not sure. So if Snorlax belongs on THE standard team which moveset would be most standard?

In the end, it seems that the most standard team is

Tauros
Golem/Rhydon
Chansey
Exeggcutor
Starmie
Alakazam

Pocket you suggested this in the post I referred to in the opening of this post but now you seem to think that Snorlax has replaced Starmie on the standard team. Did you views change? Why? Is it because of the popularity of Chansey and Alakazam?

This has also been suggested by Hitmonlee, who seems to be qualified as a Super moderator, although I'm not sure what that means. However he suggests that Snorlax is better but not as standard.

Thanks again everyone

[gene]

use snorlax if you like winning

starmie is not so effective with every team packing chansey

[Borat]

Snorlax is definitely better than Alakazam and Egg. Egg's close, but no cigar. Zam's not in the same area code. Snorlax is arguably better than Chansey as well.

Egg has a niche. Golem has a niche (and is better than Gengar). Zam and Starmie are both somewhat dispensable - Chansey.

Snorlax is just great, doesn't matter where. It's Tauros, the sequel (well usually the prequel). And it has other surprise sets too.

Smogondex is like 6 years old and hasn't been changed in a while. And it's just the view of one person.

[Pocket]

mjcarney, people often pack double sleepers when they lead with a Sleeper. If you are leading with Zam, Starmie, etc, I wouldn't bother packing 2 Sleepers. Putting a mon to sleep is advantageous but not game-breaking, so you may opt not to pack 2 sleepers (or sleepers at all) in order to have more flexibility in movesets.

Golem is more standard, since it packs a strong Explosion, which is always welcome in RBY. Rhydon, in the other hand, requires solid paralysis support to shine, so it may probably work better in a more defensive team than an offensive ones that just blow shit up.

I think Fishlax refers to a Lax with Surf to pretty much OHKO Golem and Rhydon with some residual damage. Otherwise there are few variations of Amnesialax and the standard lax (Body Slam, Earthquake, Hyper Beam, Self Destruct) with Counter occasionally replacing Self-Destruct.

And yea, Starmie has lost popularity over the decade since it's walled hard by the ubiquitous Chansey. It can be pretty annoying to face, though, since Starmie pretty much forces a switch to Chansey.

mjcarney, you may be interested in reading Hipmonlee's RBY Battling Guide for an updated analysis of the RBY metagame.

Borat, I feel like Snorlax just pales in comparison to Chansey and Alakazam, because the latter two are great defensive pivots and support mons that can spread status and dish out damage while healing themselves. Snorlax is a great offensive Pokemon like Rhydon, but it needs the support from such defensive pivots to really reach its potential. If one is using Snorlax as a replacement for either Zam or Chansey, Lax wont last long to really break through defenses as it should be. Any team with Zam and Chansey are more-or-less in good shape. Snorlax doesn't exactly fit in any team as readily as Zam and Chansey. And unlike Tauros, Zam, and Starmie, Snorlax doesn't exactly have the "hax" factor.

[Borat]

Snorlax does offense better than Zam does defense. You seem to be under the impression that RBY is special dominated [as per so many guides state]? It's pretty balanced. Zam's defense is not so good, nor is Chansey's once people see that. Reflect zam beasts, but other zams are pretty non-threatening. That's not to say they're not good, or necessary even, just that it's not the unbreakable what have yous. This feels like Skarmbliss all over again. Is RBY really that new to people?

I don't think Snorlax is anything like Rhydon. Apart from something odd like Aerodactyl, standard Snorlax doesn't need to necessarily run away from anything. And it has a 390 base power failsafe. Not to mention, when shit's para'd, lax is on par with Tauros. It won't win you a lost game out of the blue like Tauros will at times, but it'll win you games. Consistently.

If one is using Snorlax as a replacement for either Zam or Chansey, Lax wont last long to really break through defenses as it should be.

That seems like a general assumption rather than a statement of fact. Have you tried? You'd be surprised.

[Pocket]

Yea, I have, for some recent team that I made a month ago. Maybe I'm just not good at using Lax.

Here's the thing. I usually like having both Zam and Chansey because one of them tend to bite the dust early, either due to an ice beam freeze when exchanging hits with an opposing Chansey, an explosion, or a series of fps / special falls / crits. They really are not like SkarmBliss, because they can actually wear down the team efficiently with > 300 Special and T-Wave. They also force Eggy to explode, minimizing Eggy's potential.

Snorlax is a powerhouse, no doubt, and a team without one would be sorely missing out on good offense. I just feel that in a metagame where residual damage easily stacks up, Pokemon such as Chansey and Alakazam provides a dependable way to control damage and dish damage and paralysis. Snorlax can work wonders with a well-timed paraslam, but on other times it'll probably be forced to Self-Destruct. I mean, these are just my experiences playing with these monsters. I know some players who have more success with Snorlax than I have. Snorlax alongside Zam and Chansey is probably the best, due to the combination of bulk, support, and power of these monsters together.

[Borat]

I never bother getting into freeze wars. That's idiotic, just para them then capitalize with Snorlax.

If stall exists in RBY, it'd be in the form of Chansey + Zam. If you use both, you're "stalling". You're playing some form of spc down/fps vs zams/chanseys to get an additional para, going for freezes, trying to luck your way through, blah blah blah. You're probably not using Lapras, Jolteon, whatever rogue offenses that really capitalize off "old" RBY. That's two poke you can't switch into any physical attacks.

And I still don't understand why people are so quick to take para with Zam. That works, if you're playing against a similar team (with chansey/zam/starmie/egg/jynx/gengar/whatever other similarly walled by chansey/zam pokes that are out there). But it'd idiotic when the opponent is packing something like. Like... like Snorlax.

Chansey is really easy to neutralize; I fail to see why so many people try and freeze it. Stop wasting time and just para it. Then Golem and friends capitalizes easily. Lapras/Starmie -> Golem/Rhydon switches are easy. Same thing with zam. You get lax in on a non-psychic (which is very very easy), preferably on an stoss or Recover and go to work. Zam's hard to work with if you don't have Snorlax though, you probably have to end up playing that little spc down/fp war which is as stupid as curselax vs curselax. The Body Slam kind.

Reflect zam is boss though.

They also force Eggy to explode, minimizing Eggy's potential.

Snorlax is better than egg anyway.

What forces Snorlax to self-destruct? Snorlax 1v1s anything.

[Jorgen]

Snorlax is awesome, but methinks it's a bit overhyped itt. It's not miles ahead of Zam, though that's an apples-to-oranges kind of thing. And better than Egg? Again, apples to oranges, but nah.

[Borat]

Maybe, a big part of Egg's strength comes from its defensive side. Offensively, it's nothing special. It's not a huge looming "threat". It's just something that's there with an explosion and can stop golem/rhydons from insta-gibbing teams.

An active lax vs anything para'd is one of the worst matchups to be in. HB basically killing psychics/chansey outright.

Against aforementioned "standards"? Snorlax wrecks that shit.

Zam/Chansey is great for facing teams with Gengar/Starmie/Egg/Chansey/Zam/Jynx... the classic RBY stuff.

But man is it terrible for facing... Snorlax/Golem/Tauros. Hell, Lapras is doing major damage, since Chansey can't go all free nilly-willy on it like it can Starmie.

EDIT: Lapras is great btw. I'd take it over Starmie, but I am biased towards the physical side. Starmie's probably the better pokemon though. But Lapras is great. It shines against the more physical teams as aforementioned; you'd switch Lapras into slams and threaten slammers with STAB'd Blizzard. Starmie isn't doing that. Lapras can make Chansey think twice; Starmie doesn't make Chansey think.

[Pocket]

Yea the standard Tauros - Chansey - Zam - Eggy - Lax would probably be better off with Gengar on the last slot. Gengar -> Eggy provides a decent double-switch against Lax and Tauros. A team without Gengar or Golem would have to go hyper aggro against Lax in order to minimize damage - if done right (and with good luck), it could end in a 1-to-1 trade off.

I have to agree that Zam is not the best thing to get paralyzed, as it loses half of its utility. It is sort of inevitable, though, when you realize its common match-ups. If anyone is using Zam as a mini-Chansey (ie absorbing statuses), they should be using Reflect Zam. In fact, when I am talking about Zam, I am really referring to Reflect Zam, which is really hard to force out. However, even Reflect Zam starts to suck once its paralyzed, since it can't Recover off Explosions.

Lapras is actually equally physically bulky as Snorlax. Lapras imo has trouble against 'old rby' teams, because Chansey walls it all day. A team without a Chansey would have a really rough time.

Snorlax and its HB is one of the most reliable way to dispatch the 2 Special Tanks / Status Absorbers, so it's definitely a crucial member in a team. However, Reflect Zam, which you admit that it is 'boss,' is also a powerful threat to be reckoned with, especially late-game when Lax took out the opponent's Zam and Chansey. I apologize if I seemingly downplayed Lax. It is definitely in the top 5 with Zam and Chansey.

[Borat]

There are very few scenarios where I'd ever take Gengar over Golem, and Snorlax is not one of them. There's very little upside to going Gengar -> Egg, because it's a stupid easy read and it's laughable when people try it. There is very big downside though, both on the initial switch, and the subsequent switch. Gengar's problem is that it's not a threat initially, so what if Snorlax DOESN'T EQ? What's "forcing" it to EQ? You draining? You tossing? A psychic maybe?

Gengar's good for Persian, that's about it. Golem has it beat elsewhere.

Chansey doesn't wall Lapras as easily as it does Starmie. I'm not a big fan of Sing Lapras, so that leaves 2 options for the 4th move: Confuse Ray, and Hyper Beam. Chansey is in KO range for BS/HB from 65% on the switch, which is not terribly unlikely by any standard. An FP brings that up to 85-90%. And Cray luck is very viable; 37% chance to move per turn isn't great. And Chansey is probably cutting its losses pretty early, not wanting to gamble <40% if it wants to do other things. Cray can definitely force Chansey out on the reg. Chansey is not walling Lapras all day.

An active lax is probably the single most dangerous poke from the get-go (unless you have the odd aero, slowbro, cloy, etc). Unlike Tauros, it makes very little sense to sacrifice something just to para it (although I'd gladly take a BS with Chansey to para the thing). And despite missing Blizzard, it's coverage barely suffers. And again, doing that little chain switch with Gengar -> Egg is not reliable because of the risk involved. There's just as much reason for lax to EQ your active Chansey as much as there is Body Slam; maybe it's checking for Counter. Furthermore, if you DO get Gengar in pain-free, what now? There's not a single move in Gengar's arsenal that threatens snorlax to the point where it feels like it needs to EQ.

Lax is almost ALWAYS at least 2 for 1 with SD considered. And moreover, lax has plenty of tricks up its sleeve. Amnesia, Counter, Surf, Reflect, Rest, etc makes it all the merrier.

Snorlax is a different kind of good in RBY than in GSC. All the paras/sleep floating around usually makes Snorlax outspeed 3-4 of the opposition with regularity, something you never see in GSC.

Reflect zam is great... but only against the physical teams. You're better off with another 4th move against the "old" RBY teams, who have no plans of breaking through the physical side outside of Tauros anyway.

But Golem's better than Gengar so none of that's not really important.

[Carl]

IMO, a solid, "balanced" standard team is Exeggutor, Chansey, Snorlax, Lapras, Golem, and Tauros. Every pokemon here is capable of paralyzing something, either directly via status or indirectly through Body Slam. It's more physical based than special based so as to always be able to at least threaten Chansey. Three pokemon can explode if an out is needed. Tauros, Snorlax and Lapras are all capable of cleaning up teams if you catch any sort of break, which is a somewhat fair assumption in RBY. I'm not saying this is the best team ever (for many reasons) but it probably accomplishes the goal of being extremely standard and functional.