(Gen 1) THE Standard Gen 1 Team

[banngr]

I'm a Jolteon fanboy but it seems like hardly anybody in this thread goves it a chance over Zapdos or Starmie nevermind Gengar.

[Carl]

Jolteon is actually one of the reasons the team I listed isn't perfect lol. If played correctly, it can give that team some fits. Though I suppose you could say the same for many pokemon in RBY.....

[Borat]

Not really, not more than any other team anyway.

Anyway, I like using that team. I use it with Chansey as secondary sleeper.

[133tSneasel]

After reading everybodies response, isn't a "STANDARD" team, what you are familiar with. I mean there common pokemon on teams, people just change it up a bit, because they either like a pokemon or feel it's gonna help them win the match. Also, sometimes they just throw their favorite pokemon in their too

Tauros and Chansey were on almost every "STANDARD" RBY team. So that takes away two slots. Then people needed a starter, either Exeggutor, Jynx, Gengar. They needed a sleeper, and usually one of those one a sleeper. but those were not Standard, except Exeggutor. Like Borat just said, some people use Chansey as a sleeper, but Sing has horrible accuracy. So, that's one more spot taken. THen people chose either Rhydon or Golem, to Explode or not expode and to take physical normal attacks. So that's four pokemon. Then they needed a special attacker, and since Psychic was the most power attack back then, they would use Alakazam, Starmie, or Amnesia Lax. So that's 4 right there, basically these Pokemon were interchanged off and on with different movesets. The last pokemon could have been anything from Lapras, to Snorlax, to Jolteon, to Persain. They all had their positives and negatives, there was no actually "perfect" team. Lapras for Paraysis, Confusion, Special attack with Bolt/Beam or even Growl and Reflecting Physical attacks. Snorlax, as either Fish lax or Lax with Earthquake, or Amnesia lax, good for take on Zam, Starmie, and Exeggutor. Jolteon for High special attack, nothing really stopping it, except Chansey, Rhydon, and Golem. and Persian for a STAB slash always critical hitting.

There was only two reasons I used Gengar was because of Slash, and to absorb those explosions. he could also explode on Zam, and Chansey, but just to absorbs for me, and I liked how he looked. He might not be standard, but he's defintly something that works well on teams.

[Umby]

Well we're not talking about "how would you generally build an RBY team?"

We're talking about "what are the Pokemon that define the metagame in such a way that almost all bog standard teams would look almost exactly like this?"

Sure, there are substitutes for slots on your team based on what you need, but how often do you see someone using Persian over Tauros or Hypno over Alakazam? They're certainly viable options (if you can build a team correctly to incorporate them), but not as often used as their counterparts.

So yeah, you'll definitely see a lot of Tauros, Chansey, Exeggutor, and Golem/Rhydon in conjunction with each other. The general roles of these Pokemon are representatives of what goes on most standard teams, even if they themselves aren't being used.

[mjcarney]

I think I might be revealing my ignorance here but I wonder, is typing a concern in the rby metagame? I remember as a kid playing these games it seems that if a team didn't have six different types of pokemon that it would be unbalanced. Basic team building consisted of picking a grass, a fire, a water, an electric, ground and a psychic, I remember I based this off of the rival in yellow. Obviously were talking about much more advanced play but I wonder if this is still something to be considered. For example, would a team consisting of tauros, chansey and snorlax reveal a weakness to machamp or hitmonlee?

A second concern with typing was the dominance of psychic types in rby. The only real counter to this would be to have other psychic types on your team with non-psychic attacks like Starmie or Exeggcutor. Again I wonder if this continues to be a factor when building a team using the 7 or 8 "standards" we've been discussing.

[Carl]

Typing is always important in the game of pokemon but having a balanced mix is not necessary for a strong team in this generation. The 6 pokemon I listed are 3 normals, 1 psychic/grass, 1 ice/water, 1 rock/ground. That's 5 pokemon weak to fighting. Is that a concern? No. Fighting pokemon don't have access to the same strength moves they do in later generations and are weak to the common Eggy/Alakazam or fully walled by Slowbro. Submission is not nearly as scary as Close Combat. Fighting types are such a liability that you can bank on not seeing them. I'm pretty confident my team would handle Machamp just fine with Exeggutor as my only "type" counter.

The real counter to psychic types is Chansey.. that's why it's on every team. It can eat paralysis, paralyze them back and tank repeated special hits only to Softboiled them away.

Hell, the only reason for even using Golem/Rhydon is to make sure you're covered in case the opponent has Zapdos so you can wall it. The Ground/Rock mons aren't going to be saving you against normal types.. all the good ones have at least one SE move to hit them with (Surf/Quake/Blizzard/Bubblebeam). They're useful for strategic switching but they don't counter much based on typing alone.

[Umby]

Having something like Starmie or Eggy on your team doesn't mean you "counter" other Psychic types, especially when the trend among Psychic types is having a high Special, in which case Starmie is unlikely to break through Alakazam's defense, even with its stronger attacks and high crit rate. Keep in mind the only thing even significant about being a Psychic type is being resistant to/having access to STAB Psychic. The only things running that out of lack of options/superior Special for hitting neutral with it are Alakazam, Hypno, and Exeggutor, and their main goals are to paralyze/put you to sleep (guess what Starmie doesn't want to be hit with in trying to "counter" these).

In that sense it's important not to really pay attention to the fact that they're Psychic types (save for the fact that their presence means that Fighting types get completely torn out the frame in this metagame) and moreso the roles they fill on your team.

[Borat]

The real counter to psychic types is Chansey.. that's why it's on every team.

Not really a counter. Spc downs, e.g. the case of Zam/Chansey teams, rid Chansey pretty quickly if given the chance. And Chansey isn't doing any damage in return to said psychics.

I don't think Chansey is universal, which is why it's a step below Tauros. You can get away with using Zam over Chansey, and it's by no means inferior. It's still #2 or #3 (#3 in my book, but everyone would disagree), but just saying, "every" is a stretch.

Hell, the only reason for even using Golem/Rhydon is to make sure you're covered in case the opponent has Zapdos so you can wall it.

Golem/Rhydon absorbs explosion, which is a large part of RBY. Anyone using it for the sole reason of stopping Jolteon/Zapdos is doing it wrong.

I wouldn't say Psychics "dominate" per say. The top 3 is normal after all. And you're listing Psychic/Chansey as checks to psychics, what the hell stops Snorlax/Tauros?

[Carl]

Hey man stop nitpicking my posts I'm trying to exaggerate here.

[Pocket]

I think Typing matters in a sense that you need resistances to Psychic, since a Psychic from the common Exeggutor and Alakazam can put a lot of hurt. Chansey is a few exception that can soak up Psychics without the resistance. 2 Resistances (or 1 Resist + Chansey) to Psychic is mandatory imo, because of the 30% special falls forcing switches.

Resistance to Ground is also valuable, because STAB EQ from the occasional Golem, and particularly from Rhydon, hurts. Flying Types don't work so well, because of their weaknesses to STAB Rock Slide. Bulky Water Pokemon like Slowbro, Cloyster, Lapras, and even Starmie may compensate for certain teams that either chooses not to have Eggy or to lessen the load on Eggy.

Another important typing that some teams may forego is resistance to Normal (Gengar, Golem, Rhydon). People may not chose any of them b/c of what Carl stated: they aren't that great in countering normals / exploders. They only serve to take the normal hits for the team and switch out on Blizzard / Psychic, which your other members can take more easily.

Pure Normal Types and Psychics are great in that they are not weak to boltbeam, which Chansey commonly packs (as well as Starmie and Lapras). Less essential but may come in handy are resistances to STAB Blizzard, since it is the hardest hitting Special move that even Alakazam has trouble absorbing. STAB BLizz pretty much forces a switch to Chansey otherwise, and Chansey doesn't like dealing with Ice moves if it isn't paralyzed already.

[Xaneda]

is there anywhere to play Gen 1 pokemon?

[Umby]

Competitively via simulator? Netbattle Supremacy.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ybu2brt8bwk85fa

[Beowolf]

Tauros
Exeggutor
Chansey
Snorlax
Alakazam/Starmie
Golem/Gengar/Rhydon

Naturally Gengar (> Jynx) > Starmie > Alakazam for leading purposes. Leading Eggy is silly as Jynx and Gengar will sleep it.

Things like Jynx, Zapdos, Slowbro, Persian, Lapras, etc. Are usable and definitely OU, but not really "Standard RBY Team".

[mjcarney]

Hey everyone, just a quick question. When we discuss the metagame on the site do we assume that were battleing with all 6 pokemon on both teams? or are we using pokemon stadium rules where each opponent choose 3

I was under the assumption that we were picking 3 pokemon of 6. If this is not the case would this effect the standard RBY team? For example, Zapdos would appear more useful because you could just table him if you see Golem/Rhydon.

Big thank you to everybody who has helped me understand more about this game

[Jorgen]

Competitive RBY uses cart mechanics (with sleep clause added) and a full party of 6.

[waterwizard]

Absurd to say Snorlax is better than Eggy, the best poke in OU.

[exo]

snorlax because it has good health and you don't have to trade to get it.

[Nitro.]

My 2 cents for Borat, I think you're underestimating Alakazam a LITTLE. No, it's not better than Lax, but Zam is "in the same area code." Very possibly a top 5 poke imo.

Zam is really versatile both offensively and defensively. [Reflect] Zam is basically the reason Zam Chansey exists in the first place. If you can't stall it out, it's insanely potent (not all that hard to stall out tho, granted you yourself have....zam). Btw, you know what lax has to self D on? Alakazam with a reflect up. Pretty good. Just saying.

This is basically a nitpick tho cause I overall agree. Lax is top 3, Zam is top 5-6.

I also agree Gengar is horridly overrated. Potentially a top 8-10 pokemon (and it is NOT better than golem/rhydon imo) when you consider how inconsistent it is, and that 40% of the time it will just beat itself. All these guys playing gengar and thinking they just have amazing skill by guessing correctly sometimes on switch ins are really kidding themselves.

The one thing that needs to be mentioned on Gengar's behalf (which is rarely mentioned) is that Gengar is one of the better answers to slowbro in the game. Slowbro is insanely underrated by everyone and it's definitely valuable to have the fast high spc tbolter for it (no more reliable way to deal with it).

[Yai-Inn]

^agree. Though Slowbro can Twave Gengar which hurts its usefulness. Gengar also counters Lapras and Persian very well. I think Lapras is highly underrated as well.

[Borat]

I have no doubts zam probably a top 5. I'm merely pointing out the drop off after the first 3. There's probably a decent gap between egg's usefulness and zam's as well. Kinda like Snorlax/Zapdos are #1 and #2, but not really in the same area code either.

[Nitro.]

I think zam might be better than Egg honestly. Results vary as sleep explode 2 for 1 is obviously great but its far from guaranteed that you get that. Zam is honestly a rock in RBY and an extremely consistent reliable poke that harrasses and spreads pars, and can step up and fight the odd random matchup (zapdos, lapras, etc) in a pinch much like snorlax can (difference is lax is a universal offensive threat, while zam is a much more conditional offensive threat where walls must be first eliminated).

Egg is much more matchup dependent, where the only real matchup I see him being better than Zam unquestionably is vs the grounds. Egg is boned by some random matchups (again, Zapdos, Lapras, Jynx). You can say explosion is the equalizer but a lot of the time egg takes a lot of chip/par from trying to get off a sleep early on and often it can't afford to eat a DP or blizzard or whatever once the time comes for that.

I think the core of RBY is Zam + Chansey on defense and Lax + Tauros on offense. You can accessorize the other two slots in lots of different ways but I think these 4 pokemon give the absolute most consistent results. Egg's big draw is that nothing else in the game can really switch into golem or rhydon, especially not par'd, so that is a huge defensive help.

[Pocket]

I prefer not to lead with Eggy, because the paralysis / sleep or residual damage can really restrict its overall potential. A non-paralyzed healthy Eggy is pretty potent mid-game, especially with Double-Edge to hit Zam and Chansey.

[Nitro.]

DE is the best 4th move on Egg I agree but you are likely taking damage with Egg no matter how you decide to setup sleep. If you can finesse that then that's good but I disagree that he's potent mid-game because even tho he can now hit zam/chansey, he isn't outright dominating them, and by having DE he's now walled by starmie/lapras if they have it, not to mention opposing egg.

Egg's actually most potent LATE game imo. If you manage to start trading away some of these walls he has decent/good matchups with lax and tauros IF you can force those to happen, which I find to be rare (much rarer than Zam forcing Lax to fight, for instance). For this reason I actually don't mind letting Egg be the one to take sleep in some games, as he has a decent shot to wake up and be effective later on. Generally he gets too banged up in the early game to be that effective later on, though.

I may just be bad at playing Egg and better at playing Zam but I just find that Egg (like Gengar really) doesn't do much except sleep and explode. He's just the more reliable sleep exploder which is a great annex to the core 4 imo, but not better than it. I have a couple of teams that I consider very very good in RBY that don't run sleep at all. Sleep is a bit overrated in general imo because often you can get really banged up for the sake of landing a sleep and then after that you really need them to sleep at least 3-4 (depending on if you out-sped them while sleeping them) turns in order for that to have paid off which is far from guaranteed. Well executed par spreading while punishing with Lax, Ground, Tauros with possibly a wild card 4th sweeper (Lapras, Electric, Slowbro) is very much viable on its own.

[Jorgen]

I've been seeing the same kind of thing about Egg myself. Its biggest draw is that it switches in well against so many things and threatens sleep, meaning that with Egg, you can almost guarantee that something will be put to sleep (unless you're silly and give them a status absorber to play with beforehand, which I've absentmindedly done more times than I'd like to admit). Aside from getting that almost-guaranteed sleep, though, Egg doesn't really have much going for it, and is basically just waiting for a chance to explode. Which, as you said, it might not even get a chance to get off, since it tends to take a beating looking for that sleep.

Still, sleep and boom, especially from something as sturdy as Egg, is just so good, even if that's all it has. Sleep may be a bit overrated, but really, a team with sleep is probably better than one without. However, a team with a sleeper and a "backup" sleeper is hardly "necessary"; some games, that second sleeper doesn't really do much for you, although in other games, it can be incredibly handy.

Considering Egg's defensive prowess, I've toyed with the idea of rest over boom on Egg (in my head, at least). It's certainly not a new idea, but it probably warrants more use than it sees. It lets it actually play the stall game with Alakazam and maybe a couple of Starmie sets. And before you say it's just an inferior Alakazam in that regard, it still has Sleep to throw out, and unlike Zam, it's got innate physical tanking abilities (as opposed to needing a turn to set up Reflect). I think it could work, though I find that Egg Explosion can be pretty important for opening up a game.