(Beginner) Luigi's Mansion Mafia - GAME OVER! DEGs and Lady Salamence win!

[jumpluff*]

Originally Posted by Fat UncleSam

I wasn't trying to prove anything, I was trying to have a fun time playing mafia and help out one of my friends by showing him how to play as a mafia. And I had fun playing.

However, if my playing had a serious negative impact on the experience of the other players in this game, I apologize; that was not my intention.

i'm not accusing you of playing to prove anything; you've proven enough already, but beginner games are supposed to be for newbie players (seriously wtf at a few of the people in this game) to learn, not to get raped with no idea of what happened to them

it's different with mekkah because he's admin so we can't call him out for joining mafia

[UncleSam]

Originally Posted by Fat jumpluff

i'm not accusing you of playing to prove anything; you've proven enough already, but beginner games are supposed to be for newbie players (seriously wtf at a few of the people in this game) to learn, not to get raped with no idea of what happened to them

it's different with mekkah because he's admin so we can't call him out for joining mafia

Well, I think this gets at two bigger problems then someone like me joining a Beginner game:
1. There are not enough people who consider themselves Beginners who are active enough to play Smogon Mafia in order to maintain a running game of 25 players (note that I said "consider themselves" rather than simply "are").
2. Is it really best that we have exiled the Beginners to their own playground where all the "adults" don't have to deal with them? Do they really learn better that way? I agree that all the villagers in this game didn't learn much of anything, but I'd like to think that my mafia teammates learned a fair bit from watching how I played. I also think that newbies playing strictly with newbies doesn't get them as far as playing with better players does.

For example, some of you may remember how horrible I was at making spreadsheets a while back. I didn't learn how to make one properly until Mekkah called me out on it after a game (I think it was after Redwall) AND until after I was paired with LightWolf on a mafia team in Peace NOC mafia.

I agree that me joining this game did the majority of players in this game no favors whatsoever. However, I also don't think that us barring all experienced players from Beginner games is the answer; maybe we could develop some "mentoring" system where like one experienced player is assigned to "tutor" each faction in each of these games, give them pointers on how to play, etc. It would be a requirement to host a Beginner game that you line up 4-5 tutors (1 for each mafia, 1 for the wolf, and 1-2 for the villagers to ask how to play). Of course the problem with this is that "pointers" can quickly become "commands", but I think it would do a better job of teaching Beginners how to play than the current games are.

And finally, the Beginners need to actually join Beginner games. When users like Metal Bagon join the Standards instead of the Beginners for their first game the Beginners lack for players (and they are already too large as is), which requires even more subs on top of the inevitable inactivity subs that go with hosting a Beginner game. I've suggested making playing in a Beginner for your first game mandatory before, but I think I should point this out again.

[LifeAdmiral]

Originally Posted by Fat iiMKUltra

Firstly, Life's role was broken as fuck, if he outlined it correctly to me. Permanent mole with no warning in the rules? Regardless of whether it came into play, it was still incredibly op.

Correction: It was ALMOST broken as fuck. Had I been allowed to use it on myself (I wasn't), swap my name for Sam's during the entire game and the same result would have occured. More or less.

Originally Posted by Fat jumpluff

i'm not accusing you of playing to prove anything; you've proven enough already, but beginner games are supposed to be for newbie players (seriously wtf at a few of the people in this game) to learn, not to get raped with no idea of what happened to them

When Sam was referring to helping out someone play as Mafia, he meant me. And I assume your "wtf" refers to MK and I playing as beginners. But the truth is that we're both weak at the respective roles that we pulled. I've never pulled Mafia before and I needed to learn. I'm not sure if MK's ever been wolf (I think I gave him AoA in UN Mafia) either so he needs practice. These games do help the so-called "vets", jump. I personally learned a lot from watching the way Sam worked.

[UncleSam]

@iiMKUltra: I was never inspected and didn't die. That role had literally nothing to do with the outcome of this game.

[jumpluff*]

Originally Posted by Fat LifeAdmiral

And I assume your "wtf" refers to MK and I playing as beginners.

nope. dont know anything about you two as players

also sam is right, beginner games do need to be smaller

2. Is it really best that we have exiled the Beginners to their own playground where all the "adults" don't have to deal with them? Do they really learn better that way? I agree that all the villagers in this game didn't learn much of anything, but I'd like to think that my mafia teammates learned a fair bit from watching how I played. I also think that newbies playing strictly with newbies doesn't get them as far as playing with better players does.

there's a difference between an expert player playing beginner and beginners playing big/expert games. generally the beginners will be pushed around and relegated to pawns, so standard/beginner games are better for them to get a chance at any action (united mafias are the easiest way to learn). unfortunately we seem to have closed the gap between beginner and standard. beginner games should be smaller, less complicated, and only beginners should be playing them. if there aren't enough, cancel the game, combine roles, or go recruiting. beginner games aren't meant to be the gated area that parents put the toddlers in to stop them from getting in harm, they're supposed to be a simple introduction to the dynamics of smogon mafia. a lot of standard games nowadays play experimentally, which isn't an optimal learning environment. there is no reason a new player can't learn in a big game, we didn't always have beginner games, but it's significantly harder, and they tend to repeatedly fuck up, which, i'll be honest, is annoying. they're newbies and when they make mistakes usually whoever is affected by it gets over it pretty fast in light of that knowledge, but it's also hard for them to get into these games and if they get a reputation as a moron hosts won't pick them.

also, re. mentors: we had partner mafia, it wasn't that successful, didn't help the host accidentally fucked their own game up but we all make mistakes. it was sort of like bring your kid to work day instead of any real education

but i would approve of another partner mafia being held, it might be more successful, though we'd have to find a great quantity of good players and match them up with newbies. i was making one myself but decided i didn't care enough

this might be better as an OSI thread, but it'll die quickly there too

[UncleSam]

Originally Posted by Fat jumpluff

there's a difference between an expert player playing beginner and beginners playing big/expert games. generally the beginners will be pushed around and relegated to pawns, so standard/beginner games are better for them to get a chance at any action (united mafias are the easiest way to learn).

I definitely agree with this, I'm not suggesting we just throw Beginners into the Experts and hope they learn by trial and fire.

Originally Posted by Fat jumpluff

unfortunately we seem to have closed the gap between beginner and standard. beginner games should be smaller, less complicated, and only beginners should be playing them. if there aren't enough, cancel the game, combine roles, or go recruiting. beginner games aren't meant to be the gated area that parents put the toddlers in to stop them from getting in harm, they're supposed to be a simple introduction to the dynamics of smogon mafia.

I've brought up two threads in OSI about this (most recently about six or so months ago), but there was no clear consensus about what should be done about it. I think that part of a "simple introduction to the dynamics of smogon mafia" is learning how to play with competent players; in other words, we can never truly provide a legitimate introduction to smogon mafia based purely on game mechanics. In my opinion, it is almost as much adapting to the style of play here as it is adapting to the game design that drives improvement at smogon mafia.

Originally Posted by Fat jumpluff

also, re. mentors: we had partner mafia, it wasn't that successful, didn't help the host accidentally fucked their own game up but we all make mistakes. it was sort of like bring your kid to work day instead of any real education

but i would approve of another partner mafia being held, it might be more successful, though we'd have to find a great quantity of good players and match them up with newbies. i was making one myself but decided i didn't care enough

What I'm suggesting isn't partners mafia, because in my opinion the reason that failed is that it basically just devolved into the experienced players making all of the decisions while the inexperienced ones either sat around and did nothing (bad) or observed (ok but not great). What I'm suggesting is that we have 4-5 non-players with no stake as to who wins the game who are simply available to provide pointers to the players. So, for example, a new player could show one of these non-players his or her role PM, and say something along the lines of "what would an appropriate level of caution in claiming this role be?", or other such general strategy questions. The reason I suggest 4-5, separated by faction, is that I foresee difficulties for the non-players in counseling strategy if, for example, everyone was coming to one person and that one non-player knew that one of the mafia was moling. If the non-player counsels claiming to that person, the non-player could be seen as influencing the game. So, I suggest having one (or two in the case of the village) non-player for each faction who knows exactly what the corresponding faction knows, in order to provide accurate tutoring based on the information available to the that faction.

Sorry for the wall of text, I feel like I can explain this much better and more clearly then I just did, but I didn't want to leave out any steps in my thought process.

Originally Posted by Fat jumpluff

this might be better as an OSI thread, but it'll die quickly there too

If you want to c/p the last few posts into a new thread in OSI, please do so. In my experience, however, not much discussion is generated there (which I think you referred to as well).

[HD]

[12:59] <HD_AFK> hahahahahahahahah
[12:59] <HD_AFK> oh this is fucking great
[12:59] <HD_AFK> give US a mole role in a beginner game
[12:59] <HD_AFK> ahahahahahaha

that sums up my thoughts nicely

Apart from that, having the "teacher system" us mentioned in the post above mine (assuming no dick decided to post before I finished) seems to be a decent way to ease new/inexperienced players into mafia; seeing as you may have difficulties finding enough (willing) players to partner up in a partner mafia. However, I think we should try both ideas to see which is best. No harm done either way.

But letting v experienced players into beginner games is bullshit, as I've stated many times before.

[jumpluff*]

yes, having the chance to play with better players is important to learning, i'm not denying that at all. it's how i learned because i certainly didn't play any beginner games. i still learn something from every game i'm partnered with someone better than me. i just think beginner games could be more useful than they are and that it's better for someone to play a simple game first. postgames should offer more helpful advice and point out more mistakes as well. obviously newbies shouldn't have to join beginner games but i think it's a nice thing to have because a lot of people who i have spoken to about smogon mafia before have said it looks hard, it looks intimidating, etc.

and i know you're not suggesting partner mafia, i was just pointing out we've had a similar thing done before and it failed. i still think mentors would fail for the simple reason intimidated newbies will almost always (if not always) defer to the experienced player, creating too much reliance / doing what they say. a suggestion can easily be interpreted as a command. i think someone (you probably) could try a game like that, it would be easier than partner mafia, but the problem is they will still have too much influence on the game. say i think we shouldn't all claim to unclesam, i'm going to be like 'claim if you want, but there is reason to be suspicious, caution advised' and then anyone who asked will be spooked out. if people ask me and i say it seems ok but they should be careful anyway they will be like 'ok well she probably knows better than me'. obviously not everyone is like that but a lot of people defer to authority/experience and there's only so much you can say before it's interpreted in whatever way and people act on it

HD: not his fault, he subbed in

[ribeye]

Originally Posted by Fat jumpluff

i'm not accusing you of playing to prove anything; you've proven enough already, but beginner games are supposed to be for newbie players (seriously wtf at a few of the people in this game) to learn, not to get raped with no idea of what happened to them

I feel like this was exactly what happened to me. I'm more accustomed to a more interactive day during mafia, with the element of the unknown with claims and whatnot and more scumhunting with logic arguments, and I can't really see how this was played. Everyone claimed to US and then he destroyed town. Simple as that. How are you supposed to stop that as a n00b?

In essence, my hesitance in claiming to someone random at the beginning of the game has strengthened even more. Even if US was found out, wouldn't all the other DEGs know who everyone is?

[bearsfan092]

I'm also one of the new guys who got utterly ruined during this mafia, dying during n1. I didn't really get that my role (rev martyr) would probably have been better served later in the game. I probably shouldn't have claimed to UncleSam so quickly, but whatever.

Although I didn't do myself any favors by going straight for Handicapable... That's not going swimmingly.

[auramaster]

Wow this got off-topic...

On-topic: I think the mole role had potential to break the game, but it didn't. Village lost because UncleSam aggresively tried to lead, and no one stood up to him and said "I refuse to claim to someone who has an unproven, easily-faked role". Instead, the village let US lead them to their own destruction. Every action this game was controlled by US, except RAG's and MK, and neither of us had a chance of winning. Anyone daring enough could have done what US did, and he did a great job, but IMO the village's failure was the main reason why they won, not US's skill.

[the_sea_prince]

lol, i have one every single game so far, without doing shit. this was especially fun for me and probably hydrattler to watch because we knew what was going on.

[Dummy007]

Originally Posted by Fat auramaster

Wow this got off-topic...

On-topic: I think the mole role had potential to break the game, but it didn't. Village lost because UncleSam aggresively tried to lead, and no one stood up to him and said "I refuse to claim to someone who has an unproven, easily-faked role". Instead, the village let US lead them to their own destruction. Every action this game was controlled by US, except RAG's and MK, and neither of us had a chance of winning. Anyone daring enough could have done what US did, and he did a great job, but IMO the village's failure was the main reason why they won, not US's skill.

^100% agree. I was a little suspicious about US during the whole game (not quite suspicious enough to believe he was mafia, but this was my first game so it's understandable), but I couldn't really do anything about it because Plusle had already sent his role PM before I got subbed in. I know I just blindly followed US, and I probably should have disobeyed once just to see his reaction, but I'm pretty sure this is true for most of the village. aura's right: we chose our leader and pledged blind allegiance to him, thereby dooming ourselves. Interestingly, though, I think that this was actually a decent Beginner game result (for me at least), since it's taught me not to blindly trust anyone, ESPECIALLY someone with as much experience lying as UncleSam.

[jumpluff*]

Originally Posted by Fat ribeye

In essence, my hesitance in claiming to someone random at the beginning of the game has strengthened even more. Even if US was found out, wouldn't all the other DEGs know who everyone is?

yes. which is a shame, because claiming too late is almost as bad as claiming too early -- you just have to get a good sense for who to claim to. it also depends on how good your role is, though if all the terrible roles claim to one person, they'll know a lot more by process of elimination.

also auramaster phrased it better: it was broken on paper but never had the chance to come into play. i think mole roles are probably bad ideas in beginner mafias in general. new mafia players should be rewarded for coming up with good claims, and new village players should be rewarded for due suspicion and unravelling claims.

i however don't think it's the village's sole blame that they lost, same as not unclesam's full credit for winning (though he played well, i'm not really sure how much it counts for when he's an expert player in a beginner mafia lol... nothing personal but moling newbies is different to moling more experienced players, and you've proved you're capable of it so don't take offense). new people usually don't stand up aggressively as unclesam typically does because they are uncertain so i think it is understandable