(MC) Middle Cup Tier - Page 3

**Arcticblast** · Aug 18th, 2011, 10:29:17 PM

Magneton* who was pretty good in Gen4 UU (outside of the rampant Fire-types) and almost stood a chance in Gen4 OU.

kniteowl · Aug 19th, 2011, 1:06:33 AM

How is MC?

With Bulky pokemon like chansey, Dusclops and Porygon2, Maybe Specs Kadabra with Psycho shock can might care of chansey.

As for pokemon in the tier that can use Knock off, Trick or Switcheroo

Knock off
http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search...osition=middle

For some reason it's missing Machoke because Machop can learn it, maybe Machoke can't learn it but can only get the move by pre-evolution.

Trick
http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search...osition=middle

No MC pokemon learns switcheroo.

Taking out those evolites suddenly becomes important.

Specs Kadabra looks more and more stronger with Psycho shock, Shadowball, HP-fighting and Trick (really screws with walls like chansey)

Klang misses out on shift gear, level 52 :(

Looking an sweeping weather teams

Rain gets,

Poliwhirl,
Palpitoad
Lombre

While Sun Gets
Ivysaur,
Weepinbell,
Gloom,
Skiploom
Nuzleaf

Trickroom

Duosion
Dusclops
Gothorita
Kirlia
Lampent
Porygon2

Haunter and Kadabra don't count beacause they're too fast to benefit from trickroom

and there are heaps of slow sweepers in the tier too

Paradoxus · Aug 19th, 2011, 1:16:21 AM

I suggest just using the NFE tier, much more balanced, ban Dusclops and Chansey, maybe Porygon-2, and since there are so much more Rapid Spinners it should be fine. NFE uses Pokemon from LC too.

bluemon · Aug 19th, 2011, 2:09:37 AM

then it becomes a massively unbalanced tier. come on. something like machoke versus a happiny or a pichu? uhhhh.....

no thank you

kniteowl · Aug 19th, 2011, 2:20:25 AM

^ That's a terrible example

why would you use those pokemon in a NFE tier?

You'd use Chansey and Pikachu instead wouldn't you?

a NFE tier would be nice as you'd have more options for Rapid spinning but it'd also increase the options of hazards and also include weather with vulpix, snover and hippotas.

bluemon · Aug 19th, 2011, 2:31:31 AM

HAHAA Im sorry. ehh.. i still like middle cup.

moogleking · Aug 19th, 2011, 4:30:51 AM

Knock Off Pikachu and Kadabra are over powered, since Chansey just loses it's Eviolite. I'm tempted to try a Toxic Orb Trick Kadabra; Steal Chanseys Eviolite and Poison her in one move, then set up Calm Mind. Could work, will be better with Magic Guard, though.

Optimusje · Aug 19th, 2011, 4:48:06 AM

Hello mister, can I please have my tier back.

skitz0phrenic · Aug 19th, 2011, 5:27:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Optimusje

Hello mister, can I please have my tier back.

Don't even start with "who's tier" it is nonsense. That's honestly the dumbest and least worthwhile thing this thread or any other could be discussing. Who gives a fuck where the idea even came from. If people play it and support it then we all win. If we argue over "who invented the concept" like some 5 year old girls then we'll likely get our threads closed, and the entire concept will die out even quicker than it inevitably already will. Just don't even start with this stupid shit.

Ewil · Aug 19th, 2011, 6:15:04 AM

Duosion seems to pack a good role in this meta. He can be the MC Reuniclus with a set like:

Duosion @ Eviolite

252 HP 252 DEF 4 SDef

Calm Mind
Recover
Hidden Power Fight
Psyschock.

He can even do a good job in the trick room.

conway · Aug 19th, 2011, 7:03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Romeert

Pilowsine looks like the bulkiest Phazer in this tier, but here's a list of all the Pokemon that can learn phazing moves:

MC Pokemon capable of using Roar: Croconaw, Fraxure, Gabite, Herdier, Krokorok, Lairon, Loudred, Luxio, Pignite, Pilowswine, Quilava, Rhydon, Sealeo, Shelgon, Vigoroth, Zweilous
MC Pokemon capable of using Whirlwind: Golbat, Pidgeotto, Staravia
MC Pokemon capable of using Dragon Tail: Rhydon, Zweilous
MC Pokemon capable of using Circle Throw: Loudred

Lairon could also be used, with an immunity to Poison and decent Physical defence, but it has low Special Defense and 4X weaknesses to Fighting and Ground.

Dragonair and Fraxure also learn Dragon Tail.

Skytt · Aug 19th, 2011, 7:31:54 AM

I can really see Dragonair being used as a MC Milotic, with it's new ability Marvel Scale and access to great wall moves such as Dragon Tail, Haze, Toxic, Thunderwave, Rest, Substitute, Protect and (though to a lesser extent because of no reflect) Light screen.

However, though Dragonair is able to learn both Rest and Sleep Talk, which would be amazing with Marvel Scale, Sleep Talk is currently a Gen IV only TM and thus can only be used with Shed Skin (while though inferior to Marvel Scale, it does give Dragonair a 30% chance to shrug off its sleep status early at the end of each turn, which can be useful).

Hopefully, Sleep Talk will be released with DW Dratini in the near future, or even more likely, added as a Move Tutor in the 3rd Gen V game much like the Emerald move tutor.

sworm09 · Aug 19th, 2011, 7:46:59 AM

This tier is really cool because of zero weather. It's a little stallish but there are some very hard hitters there. Of course there are some Pokemon there that would never ever get used (Cascoon,Metapod,etc.) and there are some that are broken as broken can be (Chansey, Dusclops, Porygon 2, etc.). I don't want to sound like a complete idiot, but a Middle Cup "Ubers" list sounds like a good idea. Some of these are a little too strong.

mamoswineFTW · Aug 19th, 2011, 10:45:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat kniteowl

Klang misses out on shift gear, level 52 :(

But KLINK gets it at 48. There is a way to get it on its moveset.

skitz0phrenic · Aug 19th, 2011, 10:47:12 AM

I was bored browsing the MC Pokemon list and I came up with this idea for a late game sweeper (think something like SD Luke):

Dragonair (M) @ Wide Lens
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 188 SAtk / 68 Spd
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Dragon Dance
- ExtremeSpeed
- Dragon Rush
- Fire Blast

Dragonair lacks Dragon Claw until DNite, which is why I chose Dragon Rush. He also likes the extra firepower from Fire Blast over Flamethrower, so Wide Lens actually works out well for this set allowing Dragonair to get a little extra power out of his attacks without the expense of poor accuracy.

IIRC, he's also the only Pokemon in the entire tier with access to Extremespeed (Togetic? I know Kiss can get it, but I don't remember how off the top of my head, or if it's only Kiss that can get it), and therefore it gives him a bit of a niche in that regard.

Shed Skin can also potentially be helpful in preventing Dragonair from sweeping to his fullest by possibly shrugging off status.

The speed EV's are strictly to outspeed Jolly Gabite after 1 DD.

Alternatively, I suppose an Eviolite set could work by substituting Dragon Rush with Outrage (if you don't mind being locked in for a few turns), and Fire Blast with Flamethrower. I haven't run any calcs on anything to really see the difference in the latter. I just know the few Steels in the tier won't like it either way.

TM13IceBeam · Aug 19th, 2011, 10:56:18 AM

Togetic can't learn ExtremeSpeed.

I'd actually put Outrage as the main over D-Rush...

skitz0phrenic · Aug 19th, 2011, 11:21:53 AM

Edit - Had a preliminary priority list for the tier here, but Veekun hates me so I need to go back and revise it -_-

skitz0phrenic · Aug 19th, 2011, 11:25:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Togetic can't learn ExtremeSpeed.

I'd actually put Outrage as the main over D-Rush...

I opted not to have Outrage since it's not an Eviolite set, and therefore it will likely die quickly if locked in to a move it doesn't want to be in (for example, if it needs to be switched out asap), especially with the bulky as hell nature of this tier due to almost anything using Eviolite. I can see them both having their merits though.

Virizion · Aug 19th, 2011, 11:26:04 AM

@ Skitz
Why mention Dewott's AJ instead of Marill's?

Edit: Nevermind, I found out there's only a ~35 stat-point difference. I thought Dewott had like, 50 base Attack..

TM13IceBeam · Aug 19th, 2011, 11:36:57 AM

Damn, Chansey would've been 100x manageable with ST Lampent. Switch Lampent in on ST, completely wall, outspeed, and Sub on Chansey, CM to your liking, win.

skitz0phrenic · Aug 19th, 2011, 11:46:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Virizion

@ Skitz
Why mention Dewott's AJ instead of Marill's?

Edit: Nevermind, I found out there's only a ~35 stat-point difference. I thought Dewott had like, 50 base Attack..

Yea, Dewott hits a little harder than I expected, and is also a bit more useable all around than Marill, at least imo. He also has a pretty useable Base 83 SpA, compared to Marills umm....20..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Damn, Chansey would've been 100x manageable with ST Lampent. Switch Lampent in on ST, completely wall, outspeed, and Sub on Chansey, CM to your liking, win.

That would be so nice. The only way out for Chansey would be via item (Shed Shell or lolRing Target w/ S-Toss).

CobraJSF · Aug 19th, 2011, 11:48:01 AM

YES! Middle Cup is back!

Anyway, Monferno and Combusken run through Chansey.... Dunno what kills Dusclops. Porygon-2 is probably broken as it's impossible to kill BEFORE eviolite. Anyone have success with agility Porygon-2 in 5th gen?

TM13IceBeam · Aug 19th, 2011, 11:51:09 AM

I think BoltBeam + Recover pretty much suffices, with Tri Attack/Toxic/Magic Coat being your options for slot 4.

bluemon · Aug 19th, 2011, 11:52:55 AM

u guys are discussing without me :(

the duosion set wil be a real threat
the dragonair's fire blast is unecessary with like no steels. just run someting like dragon dance outrage waterfall/extremespeed rest
toxic orb kadabra without calm mind sucks.

skitz0phrenic · Aug 19th, 2011, 12:01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat bluemon

u guys are discussing without me :(

the dragonair's fire blast is unecessary with like no steels. just run someting like dragon dance outrage waterfall/extremespeed rest

It's for Eviolite Magneton/Metang, who would otherwise destroy Dragonair very quickly. It's a shame DNair can't EQ until he evolves.

Aug 18th, 2011, 10:29:17 PM	#51
Arcticblast ~ Moderator Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,002 #serperiors Mentor	Magneton* who was pretty good in Gen4 UU (outside of the rampant Fire-types) and almost stood a chance in Gen4 OU. __________________ New to Smogon? Afraid to jump into discussion? Introduce yourself! ------------------- Fail Cup \| Scramble! \| RMTs: Night Stall (OU) \| ARcTicblast \| Demon Spawn \| signature art by Zracknel additional credit to Pocket and AccidentalGreed

Aug 19th, 2011, 1:06:33 AM	#52
kniteowl Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 324	How is MC? With Bulky pokemon like chansey, Dusclops and Porygon2, Maybe Specs Kadabra with Psycho shock can might care of chansey. As for pokemon in the tier that can use Knock off, Trick or Switcheroo Knock off http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search...osition=middle For some reason it's missing Machoke because Machop can learn it, maybe Machoke can't learn it but can only get the move by pre-evolution. Trick http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search...osition=middle No MC pokemon learns switcheroo. Taking out those evolites suddenly becomes important. Specs Kadabra looks more and more stronger with Psycho shock, Shadowball, HP-fighting and Trick (really screws with walls like chansey) Klang misses out on shift gear, level 52 :( Looking an sweeping weather teams Rain gets, Poliwhirl, Palpitoad Lombre While Sun Gets Ivysaur, Weepinbell, Gloom, Skiploom Nuzleaf Trickroom Duosion Dusclops Gothorita Kirlia Lampent Porygon2 Haunter and Kadabra don't count beacause they're too fast to benefit from trickroom and there are heaps of slow sweepers in the tier too Last edited by kniteowl; Aug 19th, 2011 at 1:28:24 AM.

Aug 19th, 2011, 1:16:21 AM	#53
Paradoxus Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 802 New York	I suggest just using the NFE tier, much more balanced, ban Dusclops and Chansey, maybe Porygon-2, and since there are so much more Rapid Spinners it should be fine. NFE uses Pokemon from LC too. __________________ D.Gray-Man forever and ever.

Aug 19th, 2011, 4:30:51 AM	#57
moogleking Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 120	Knock Off Pikachu and Kadabra are over powered, since Chansey just loses it's Eviolite. I'm tempted to try a Toxic Orb Trick Kadabra; Steal Chanseys Eviolite and Poison her in one move, then set up Calm Mind. Could work, will be better with Magic Guard, though. __________________

Aug 19th, 2011, 4:48:06 AM	#58
Optimusje Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 898 Occupation: Walker	Hello mister, can I please have my tier back. __________________ #webfoot Pokemon Closet Players [18:14:20] <~forks> conquering these crippling insecurities of mine, and whatnot [18:14:21] <~forks> so that [18:14:27] <~forks> i will get fewer fucks

Aug 19th, 2011, 2:09:37 AM	#54
bluemon Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,498 ♠ AmoongBro ♠	then it becomes a massively unbalanced tier. come on. something like machoke versus a happiny or a pichu? uhhhh..... no thank you

Aug 19th, 2011, 2:20:25 AM	#55
kniteowl Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 324	^ That's a terrible example why would you use those pokemon in a NFE tier? You'd use Chansey and Pikachu instead wouldn't you? a NFE tier would be nice as you'd have more options for Rapid spinning but it'd also increase the options of hazards and also include weather with vulpix, snover and hippotas.

Aug 19th, 2011, 2:31:31 AM	#56
bluemon Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,498 ♠ AmoongBro ♠	HAHAA Im sorry. ehh.. i still like middle cup.

Aug 19th, 2011, 6:15:04 AM	#60
Ewil Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 435 Italy	Duosion seems to pack a good role in this meta. He can be the MC Reuniclus with a set like: Duosion @ Eviolite 252 HP 252 DEF 4 SDef Calm Mind Recover Hidden Power Fight Psyschock. He can even do a good job in the trick room. __________________ My Italian Page on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/EwilsReview Manga and Comics Review (edited in Italy) IF ANYONE COLLECTS STAMPS AND WANT TO EXCHANGE WITH ME, JUST CONTACT ME VIA PM (I principally have italian stamps, but i have even foreign ones too)

Aug 19th, 2011, 7:31:54 AM	#62
Skytt Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 239 United Kingdom	I can really see Dragonair being used as a MC Milotic, with it's new ability Marvel Scale and access to great wall moves such as Dragon Tail, Haze, Toxic, Thunderwave, Rest, Substitute, Protect and (though to a lesser extent because of no reflect) Light screen. However, though Dragonair is able to learn both Rest and Sleep Talk, which would be amazing with Marvel Scale, Sleep Talk is currently a Gen IV only TM and thus can only be used with Shed Skin (while though inferior to Marvel Scale, it does give Dragonair a 30% chance to shrug off its sleep status early at the end of each turn, which can be useful). Hopefully, Sleep Talk will be released with DW Dratini in the near future, or even more likely, added as a Move Tutor in the 3rd Gen V game much like the Emerald move tutor. __________________ Smogon is my new home! Avatar was drawn by myself for the -~Pokemon Amethyst Project~-

Aug 19th, 2011, 7:46:59 AM	#63
sworm09 Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 44	This tier is really cool because of zero weather. It's a little stallish but there are some very hard hitters there. Of course there are some Pokemon there that would never ever get used (Cascoon,Metapod,etc.) and there are some that are broken as broken can be (Chansey, Dusclops, Porygon 2, etc.). I don't want to sound like a complete idiot, but a Middle Cup "Ubers" list sounds like a good idea. Some of these are a little too strong.

Aug 19th, 2011, 10:47:12 AM	#65
skitz0phrenic Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 339	I was bored browsing the MC Pokemon list and I came up with this idea for a late game sweeper (think something like SD Luke): Dragonair (M) @ Wide Lens Trait: Shed Skin EVs: 252 Atk / 188 SAtk / 68 Spd Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef) - Dragon Dance - ExtremeSpeed - Dragon Rush - Fire Blast Dragonair lacks Dragon Claw until DNite, which is why I chose Dragon Rush. He also likes the extra firepower from Fire Blast over Flamethrower, so Wide Lens actually works out well for this set allowing Dragonair to get a little extra power out of his attacks without the expense of poor accuracy. IIRC, he's also the only Pokemon in the entire tier with access to Extremespeed (Togetic? I know Kiss can get it, but I don't remember how off the top of my head, or if it's only Kiss that can get it), and therefore it gives him a bit of a niche in that regard. Shed Skin can also potentially be helpful in preventing Dragonair from sweeping to his fullest by possibly shrugging off status. The speed EV's are strictly to outspeed Jolly Gabite after 1 DD. Alternatively, I suppose an Eviolite set could work by substituting Dragon Rush with Outrage (if you don't mind being locked in for a few turns), and Fire Blast with Flamethrower. I haven't run any calcs on anything to really see the difference in the latter. I just know the few Steels in the tier won't like it either way.

Aug 19th, 2011, 10:56:18 AM	#66
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,248 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	Togetic can't learn ExtremeSpeed. I'd actually put Outrage as the main over D-Rush... __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Aug 19th, 2011, 11:21:53 AM	#67
skitz0phrenic Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 339	Edit - Had a preliminary priority list for the tier here, but Veekun hates me so I need to go back and revise it -_- Last edited by skitz0phrenic; Aug 19th, 2011 at 12:09:53 PM.

Aug 19th, 2011, 11:26:04 AM	#69
Virizion Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,459 Dearest Princess Celestia;	@ Skitz Why mention Dewott's AJ instead of Marill's? Edit: Nevermind, I found out there's only a ~35 stat-point difference. I thought Dewott had like, 50 base Attack.. __________________ HACKED ONES ALLOWED. DON'T CHEAT!!!!!!

Aug 19th, 2011, 11:36:57 AM	#70
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,248 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	Damn, Chansey would've been 100x manageable with ST Lampent. Switch Lampent in on ST, completely wall, outspeed, and Sub on Chansey, CM to your liking, win. __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Aug 19th, 2011, 11:48:01 AM	#72
CobraJSF Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 126	YES! Middle Cup is back! Anyway, Monferno and Combusken run through Chansey.... Dunno what kills Dusclops. Porygon-2 is probably broken as it's impossible to kill BEFORE eviolite. Anyone have success with agility Porygon-2 in 5th gen? __________________ Outrage: One click win. (15:20) yellow: i don't see why any team shouldn't have a scraggy (15:20) yellow: it even has gg in its name

Aug 19th, 2011, 11:51:09 AM	#73
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,248 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	I think BoltBeam + Recover pretty much suffices, with Tri Attack/Toxic/Magic Coat being your options for slot 4. __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Aug 19th, 2011, 11:52:55 AM	#74
bluemon Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,498 ♠ AmoongBro ♠	u guys are discussing without me :( the duosion set wil be a real threat the dragonair's fire blast is unecessary with like no steels. just run someting like dragon dance outrage waterfall/extremespeed rest toxic orb kadabra without calm mind sucks.