Team: Rain Man

[MCramez]

I absolutely love the look of this team. Reading your intro i was thinking that it was not as unique as you made it out to be, but looking at the sets, particularly Jirachi's it becomes clear your team is pure awesome, and very unique. One suggestion i might make is for Politoed to run encore, I've found that it is very useful, on say, SD toxicroak, as instead of hopelessly switching out, you can encore into sd and switch to a counter. Also, since your gliscor has sub, you can encore, perish song, switch to Scor, set up a sub, and you are guaranteed to be untouched by toxi.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't sassy 10 Speed IV TTar underspeed politoed, and isn't that the standard spread for special defensive Ttar? so you wouldn't always start that match with rain as you said, but I might be wrong.

Anyway, very cool team, I enjoyed reading the rmt, and I might want to take that jirachi for a spin sometime...

[Yamborski]

Cool team. My only suggestion is the same thing everyone else is saying, possibly Eviolite Chansey over Blissey to handle Landorus and Thundurus slightly better.

Maybe Facade > Ice Fang on Gliscor. 140 beats Ice Fang's damage against pretty much everything besides Dragonite and Gengar.

Out of curiosity how do you handle DD Scrafty and Conkledurr? Seems like they could be issues if Shed Skin activates or Conk doesn't get poisoned.

Everyone is suggesting Psyshock on Jirachi but you obviously don't want to do that. You can always just run speed EVs on Gliscor.



I'm going to re-visit the apparent "noob" strategy of Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn now.

[IronBullet93]

Hey man,

I don't think Landorus is as much of a weakness as you are making it out to be, since SD versions are simply Poisoned and stalled out, Sub versions can't set up on anything and can't 2HKO Blissey in rain, and Choiced versions are beaten out by Gliscor. This leaves only Toxicroak as the one huge weakness that this team faces, and for this I second Delko's suggestion of Psyshock > Thunder on Jirachi. Another option you could try would be Thunder Wave > Toxic on either Blissey or Ferrothorn, which acts as a much more complete stop against the likes of Thundurus, and makes Toxicroak much easier to deal with if you predict correctly.

That being said, I also support Chansey over Blissey to provide further insurance against Landorus, as the amount of bulk it gains for 6% recovery is definitely worth it. With rain up most of the time, you generally won't have to worry about weather wearing Chansey down. As much as I like the idea of Rocky Helmet on Ferrothorn, it's still going to be worn down pretty quickly by random burns / HP Fires without Lefties recovery. If the opponent goes to a Celebi or opposing Ferrothorn, you're left with essentially no recovery. It's obviously very important for you to conserve Ferrothorn since it's your go-to Pokemon for powerful Dragon attacks and your main source of residual damage, so the extra recovery gained does have more importance than the extra damage you get on Rapid Spinners.

Congrats on the team, and good luck!

[HBK]

Hey nigga,great team you've got here.Like everyone who's said this before me I too think you should run Chansey over bliss since unlike ss you won't be losing any health per turn under rain.Seconding the Psyshock over Thunder suggestion as it helps patch up that croak weakness.You can easily switch it in on an ice punch aimed at gliscor or just while it's SD'ing.I'd like to suggest a Chestorest Toed over your current set as it's helped me win tons of weather wars in the past.It helps you get rid of status(Toxic,basically)from Gastrodon,Gliscor predicting Toed to switch in,Tar(yes i've seen one on the ladder),etc.You could run the same set with Rest over Protect.Also agreeing with shrang over the Spinner issue.I've faced a Ferro abusing rocky helmet with my Forry before and what i've learnt is that the only chance of the guy using forry to keep hazards off his field is if he stays in(unless the Ferro user makes some stupid mistakes/the Forry user makes some good predictions).On the other hand if he decides to stay in Forry is gonna die but the only hazard you'll be setting up is SR(or one layer of spikes if you're dumb xD) and this is only because hazards are not cleared if the spinner dies of Iron Barbs damage.Really good team apart from that WELL DONE!

[Eternal]

Anyway, I'm going to give a little background to how the team and idea came to be and give credit where credit is due. My first encounter with Rain Stall was when I played Philip7086 in SPL, and his team was very strong. Suffice to say, I got destroyed, but I tucked the strategy away in the back of my mind in case it might come in handy later on.

Yea, I would like to say that that wasn't Philip's team. It was actually my team that I lend him to use for his match. And I was skeptical back then when rain stall wasn't popular and you used the exact same Pokemon I was playing with on ladder against me, lol.

All rain stall teams are similar. And for someone that has about 20 different rain stall teams, I can tell you that it's impossible to perfect it. The common threats to any rain stall team I've compiled are: CB Dragonite/Haxorus, Rotom-W, Thundurus (especially Lum Berry), Reuniclus, Ice Punch Toxicroak, NP Celebi, Virizion (mixed is hard to predict), Gastrodon, and Jellicent. These are among the biggest threats to any rain stall team.

Blissey seems to be your Pokemon that you rely on beating special sweeping Rotom-W, Thundurus, Celebi, and Virizion. But what I would recommend is using Chansey instead beccause Blissey is not as defensive, and because you're using Blissey as your Stealth Rock supporter. Chansey in the rain (where it's vulnerable to weather damage) is a better Stealth Rock supporter than Blisey. It can take a Hydro Pump from Rotom-W in the rain much better than Blissey can. So you should give that a try.

Now, Choice Band Dragonite or Haxorus can be really annoying to this team, where your best option is to send out Ferrothorn on them. Not only that Ferrothorn can get easily trapped by Magnezone. Because of this I suggest what I use on my Ferrothorn, Protect over Toxic. With Leech Seed and Protect you will be able to take on Magnezone in the rain as HP Fire won't do as much anymore and Magnezone will slowly die away from Leech damage. CB Dragonite and Haxorus will also be easier to control as you can gain back necessary HP by Leech Seeding them and Protecting, along with Iron Barb damage, so you're doing like 25% damage per turn. It would probably be better to reset the Outrage counter with Leech + Protect rather than stay in and lose your Ferrothorn only to get the rest of your team swept later on.

Reuniclus is not going to be an easy Pokemon for your team to handle as the HP on Jirachi is very crucial. If Jirachi is weakened, then Reuniclus gets and easy chance to make a sweep. Thundurus with Lum Berry can just outright sweep your whole team after a Nasty Plot. Swords Dance Toxicroak (can also absorb your Toxic Spikes) with Ice Punch can also make an easy sweep through your whole team. Your only chance of beating it would be Jirachi getting a lucky Thunder paralysis. Nasty Plot Celebi also has an easy chance of sweeping your whole team, where your only way of 'stalling' it is using Blissey to Toxic it. Virizion is very unpredictable, can be either a CM sweeper, SD sweeper, or Mixed. Meaning you will have a hard time deciding on which one it is and it also has a nice opportunity to sweep your whole team. Both Celebi and Virizion can be controlled as long as you have Toxic Spikes up. I can't really give you a good answer to fix all these problems, because these are the main weaknesses to any rain stall teams. The best thing you can hope for is to play really well using Team Preview as an advantage.

I also see a problem with Jellicent for this team, where your only way of beating it using Jirachi (and yet Jirachi's Thunder won't KO and has a hard time coming in on Scald in the rain). Since you dropped Politoed's Speed, you're going to have a tough time Toxic'ing Jellicent when it can just Taunt you. So it would probably be better to have a speedy Politoed. For other purposes too, like specially defensive Swords Dance Scizor (which you would have to hope for a burn from Tentacruel's Scald to stop).

Hope that helps. Good luck!

EDIT: Make sure Gliscor and Ferrothorn are both Female, so they don't get trolled by Rivalry Haxorus.

[Gimmick]

I agree with PK Gaming to have Skarm over Gliscor. It eliminates the Ice factor from Gliscor and frees up a spot on Ferro. It really depends on your liking what to do with the extra spot, but you could replace Spikes with SR which then frees a spot on Blissey. You could add extra support our scout with protect. Or you could just have a curse variant on Ferro to wall many of the threats.

[VERAKS]

very strong team and yeah i agree with changing to chansey with eviolite but i also cant help but notice your kind of weak to thundurus once bliss/chansey is gone and rachi is weekend

[WECAMEASROMANS]

You have no way of beating bulk up Conkeldurr if toxic spikes aren't down. Gliscor does not stall it out since it doesn't carry toxic, and it can easily set up against you and regain all its health with drain punch and do a ton of damage to you with payback.

[shadowxevo]

Erm, what do you do against opposing Ferrothorn? I don't see much you can do to it.

[Eternal]

Originally Posted by Fat WECAMEASROMANS

You have no way of beating bulk up Conkeldurr if toxic spikes aren't down. Gliscor does not stall it out since it doesn't carry toxic, and it can easily set up against you and regain all its health with drain punch and do a ton of damage to you with payback.

All he needs to do is Toxic or burn the Conkeldurr with his team (which he has many ways of doing so) and send in Gliscor. Meaning, good game Conkeldurr. As Gliscor can Sub+Protect stall out Conkeldurr's HP. Drain Punching the Substitute will only allow you to recover 50% of the damage you inflicted when you broke the Substitute (not enough to save yourself from getting Sub+Protect stalled while inflict by poison or burn).

[undisputed]

Originally Posted by Fat Grimm70

Very good team here. ( It is because of this one since the WC that I definitively stoped playing TR team T_T )

Haha, yeah. TR has a hard time since Stall doesn't really care about speed.

Originally Posted by Fat Rewer

Hi undisputed :)

Yeah, this is a very solid team indeed. I'm just giving some minor nitpicks here. First, your EV Spreads. Gliscor. I'd change his EVs spread to 244 HP, 88 Def or Atk, 176 Spd. Why? 244 HP it's a magical HP number, allows Gliscor to maximise it's recovery from poison. 176 Spd EVs means Gliscor will outspeed adamant Toxicroak and kill, so SD Croak won't be a problem anymore and you can cut that off the problem list. Jirachi. Use 212 Speed EVs. Outspeeds All 95 Base. You don't need more than that. The remain EVs can be invested on Defense. On Ferro. 252 HP, 48 Def, 208 SDef, Relaxed Nature. Haxorus must been a bitch, right? well this EV Spread allows to take hits from him better. On Blissey, I feel like 4 HP, 252 Def, 252 SDef and a calm nature must been better since special attacks are stronger now and Blissey's HP is already too strong. I'd use 252 HP with Wish, but you're using Softboiled, so yeah.

Other than that, everything change would change the team's synergy and will open you for alot of pokes. I will only give some ideas but that's not like it will get the team better. Another Jirachi like yours can 6-0 you if he win the CM War with Jirachi. NP Thundurus is a pain in the butt, so is Landorus. SD HP Ice Landorus. While your Jirachi is, indeed, a BEAST, you can use something in that spot to cover against other threats, or just keep as it. Some ideas: Bronzong. It counters Landorus very well, and can keep eqing the Jirachi after if you lose CM War, surviving a Thunder, however it won't help vs Thundurus and then you're open against Reuniclus. Another idea is a defensive Gastordon. Shits off Jirachi, can survive a hit from Landorus if you keep him healthy, and 'checks Thundurus, first off I thought Gastordon we're a counter for NP Thundurus since everybody told me so. Then user Iconic told me on IRC it does not. Tested, and in fact gets 2hkoed by +2 Focus while can't OHKO back. And Gastordon opens you more for CM Reuniclus. Another idea is scarfing your Jirachi giving a moveset of Ice Punch, Iron Head, Fire Punch (lol), Trick. You gain a 'check' for all those threats, you can ice punch off Landorus, flinch Thundurus to death, trick opposing reuni, trick the CM Rachi as long you don't switch on a Substitute. Or use Rotom-W with the same function instead, but Jirachi would keep current synergy. However, all these suggestions you would have to replace your best pokemon, Jirachi, wich in my words, what can I say, fucking awesome.

Good Job on the team bro, it's very solid.

Thanks for the rate, bro. I'll certainly try out those spreads. My main concern for Gliscor is just maximizing what it can do defensively, and I'm not sure how much 176 Spe to beat Toxicroak matters. If I had another defensive wall, that would be highly worthwhile, I agree. Probably not gonna change Jirachi's Speed EVs since the extra 40 Def EVs probably wouldn't win or lose me many matches. I like at least knowing I can tie with Salamences or some random base 100s that max Speed.

I'm totally down for trying the Ferrothorn and Blissey spreads though, good idea!

Bronzong is a good suggestion, but then I could just ask Eternal for his team lol. At least gotta be 1/6 different! xD. Scarf Jirachi is another good idea to be honest. I remember throwing out the idea to ENZ0 when we were discussing the team, and it certainly makes sense. I'll give it a try, but it will probably come down to what set of threats I'm gonna leave myself open to.

Originally Posted by Fat Porii Sames

Oh, Gliscor, run enough speed to outspeed Timid Rotom. Stalling out their Hydro Pump is amazingly useful.

Yeah, I saw this first hand in one of our team's World Cup matches, and while that would be useful, I need to make sure I can wall as many physical threats as possible (and Blissey already has Rotom-w checked).

Originally Posted by Fat sheep

hey man I just played your team on the ladder and it's pretty scyther weak js

Originally Posted by Fat Bluewind

Yeah this is a very solid team as said by others; only thing I'd consider is switching Blissey for Chansey, as she can take 2 LO Earthquakes from Landorus with rain up (iirc), which means you should be safe against anything but Swords Dance. You'd also get something more bulky to deal with Thundurus (as you could EV it accordingly) which is always nice. SD Virizion seems to be a gigantic whore still, but I don't think much can be done about it; it's BW so it's basically pick your weakness. Good job.

SD Virizion is a fag, I probably should've mentioned it to be honest. Kind of slipped my mind. I remember Eo surprised me in Frontier with bs SD Virizion. I'll be trying out Chansey when I play this team on the ladder or against randoms in the future! Thanks for the rate, bw :)

Originally Posted by Fat fatsnorlax

Your Gliscor, Landorus, and SD Toxicroak issues can be solved if Gliscor is replaced with the standard Bronzong.

thanks

Originally Posted by Fat TheMasterOfOz

Bronzong cannot stop SD Toxicroak. SD Toxicroak does a minimum of around 99% damage to zong after a +2 LO Cross Chop. Drain Punch easily 2HKOs and recovers enough HP to where it will seem like EQ did absolutely nothing (Earthquake can't OHKO); add Dry Skin and Bronzong stands no chance. This is why I second BKC's suggestion of putting a Jellicent over Gliscor. I also agree on replacing Blissey with Chansey, especially since you have a rain team and will (hopefully) not have sand up all game to make the lack of Leftovers an issue.

Haha, yeah Zong has no chance vs. SD Toxicroak xD. Jellicent would open more holes than its worth imo. Excadrill at decent health could straight up sweep me in the Rain lol. Also Terrakion and stuff similar would be a pain in the ass too.

Originally Posted by Fat MCramez

I absolutely love the look of this team. Reading your intro i was thinking that it was not as unique as you made it out to be, but looking at the sets, particularly Jirachi's it becomes clear your team is pure awesome, and very unique. One suggestion i might make is for Politoed to run encore, I've found that it is very useful, on say, SD toxicroak, as instead of hopelessly switching out, you can encore into sd and switch to a counter. Also, since your gliscor has sub, you can encore, perish song, switch to Scor, set up a sub, and you are guaranteed to be untouched by toxi.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't sassy 10 Speed IV TTar underspeed politoed, and isn't that the standard spread for special defensive Ttar? so you wouldn't always start that match with rain as you said, but I might be wrong.

Anyway, very cool team, I enjoyed reading the rmt, and I might want to take that jirachi for a spin sometime...

Encore can have its uses, but one Encore will give away the strategy, and I won't be able to do it twice. I prefer PSong for its just general utility to be honest.

You'd be right, 10 Speed IV TTar does underspeed Politoed, but I don't know anyone that does that. Usually people leave their Pokemon full IV'd because they don't think to change it, or since TTar naturally underspeeds Politoed people don't feel the need to go lower anyway.

Feel free to try it!

Originally Posted by Fat Yamborski

Cool team. My only suggestion is the same thing everyone else is saying, possibly Eviolite Chansey over Blissey to handle Landorus and Thundurus slightly better.

Maybe Facade > Ice Fang on Gliscor. 140 beats Ice Fang's damage against pretty much everything besides Dragonite and Gengar.

Out of curiosity how do you handle DD Scrafty and Conkledurr? Seems like they could be issues if Shed Skin activates or Conk doesn't get poisoned.

Everyone is suggesting Psyshock on Jirachi but you obviously don't want to do that. You can always just run speed EVs on Gliscor.



I'm going to re-visit the apparent "noob" strategy of Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn now.

I'll be trying Chansey, don't worry. Ice Fang is a cool move, and I really don't use it for anything outside of what EQ doesn't hit. It also helps vs. other Gliscor which is a big help. Since Gliscor doesn't really stay in and dish out hits very much (more forcing switches or stalling), I don't think it'd be worth the change imo.

Originally Posted by Fat IronBullet93

Hey man,

I don't think Landorus is as much of a weakness as you are making it out to be, since SD versions are simply Poisoned and stalled out, Sub versions can't set up on anything and can't 2HKO Blissey in rain, and Choiced versions are beaten out by Gliscor. This leaves only Toxicroak as the one huge weakness that this team faces, and for this I second Delko's suggestion of Psyshock > Thunder on Jirachi. Another option you could try would be Thunder Wave > Toxic on either Blissey or Ferrothorn, which acts as a much more complete stop against the likes of Thundurus, and makes Toxicroak much easier to deal with if you predict correctly.

That being said, I also support Chansey over Blissey to provide further insurance against Landorus, as the amount of bulk it gains for 6% recovery is definitely worth it. With rain up most of the time, you generally won't have to worry about weather wearing Chansey down. As much as I like the idea of Rocky Helmet on Ferrothorn, it's still going to be worn down pretty quickly by random burns / HP Fires without Lefties recovery. If the opponent goes to a Celebi or opposing Ferrothorn, you're left with essentially no recovery. It's obviously very important for you to conserve Ferrothorn since it's your go-to Pokemon for powerful Dragon attacks and your main source of residual damage, so the extra recovery gained does have more importance than the extra damage you get on Rapid Spinners.

Congrats on the team, and good luck!

Haha, a Landorus in the hands of a good player will definitely win unless they choke or something. It doesn't even need to SD, just gotta hit and run and pick me off one by one. If it doesnt have HP Ice or is choiced, it's not really a problem though. Twave is interesting, but I find it could be difficult to use in tandem with Toxic Spikes.

Believe it or not, Ferrothorn and Spikes are like the last Pokemon I get around to using. A large portion of my games, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, and just Toxic spamming can run through people easily. I usually just settle for 1 layer of Spikes in a large majority of matches, and 3 layers comes once in a blue moon. That being said, I certainly agree that in the absence of spinners (most teams), Leftovers is way better on Ferrothorn, and I could even use it more to wall stuff, but in the small number of games where there is a spinner, Ferrothorn is almost worth its weight in gold.

thanks for the rate dude, I appreciate it!

Originally Posted by Fat HBK

Hey nigga,great team you've got here.Like everyone who's said this before me I too think you should run Chansey over bliss since unlike ss you won't be losing any health per turn under rain.Seconding the Psyshock over Thunder suggestion as it helps patch up that croak weakness.You can easily switch it in on an ice punch aimed at gliscor or just while it's SD'ing.I'd like to suggest a Chestorest Toed over your current set as it's helped me win tons of weather wars in the past.It helps you get rid of status(Toxic,basically)from Gastrodon,Gliscor predicting Toed to switch in,Tar(yes i've seen one on the ladder),etc.You could run the same set with Rest over Protect.Also agreeing with shrang over the Spinner issue.I've faced a Ferro abusing rocky helmet with my Forry before and what i've learnt is that the only chance of the guy using forry to keep hazards off his field is if he stays in(unless the Ferro user makes some stupid mistakes/the Forry user makes some good predictions).On the other hand if he decides to stay in Forry is gonna die but the only hazard you'll be setting up is SR(or one layer of spikes if you're dumb xD) and this is only because hazards are not cleared if the spinner dies of Iron Barbs damage.Really good team apart from that WELL DONE!

I didn't follow the last part, but I'll certainly give the aforementioned suggestions a try!

Originally Posted by Fat Eternal

Yea, I would like to say that that wasn't Philip's team. It was actually my team that I lend him to use for his match. And I was skeptical back then when rain stall wasn't popular and you used the exact same Pokemon I was playing with on ladder against me, lol.

All rain stall teams are similar. And for someone that has about 20 different rain stall teams, I can tell you that it's impossible to perfect it. The common threats to any rain stall team I've compiled are: CB Dragonite/Haxorus, Rotom-W, Thundurus (especially Lum Berry), Reuniclus, Ice Punch Toxicroak, NP Celebi, Virizion (mixed is hard to predict), Gastrodon, and Jellicent. These are among the biggest threats to any rain stall team.

Blissey seems to be your Pokemon that you rely on beating special sweeping Rotom-W, Thundurus, Celebi, and Virizion. But what I would recommend is using Chansey instead beccause Blissey is not as defensive, and because you're using Blissey as your Stealth Rock supporter. Chansey in the rain (where it's vulnerable to weather damage) is a better Stealth Rock supporter than Blisey. It can take a Hydro Pump from Rotom-W in the rain much better than Blissey can. So you should give that a try.

Now, Choice Band Dragonite or Haxorus can be really annoying to this team, where your best option is to send out Ferrothorn on them. Not only that Ferrothorn can get easily trapped by Magnezone. Because of this I suggest what I use on my Ferrothorn, Protect over Toxic. With Leech Seed and Protect you will be able to take on Magnezone in the rain as HP Fire won't do as much anymore and Magnezone will slowly die away from Leech damage. CB Dragonite and Haxorus will also be easier to control as you can gain back necessary HP by Leech Seeding them and Protecting, along with Iron Barb damage, so you're doing like 25% damage per turn. It would probably be better to reset the Outrage counter with Leech + Protect rather than stay in and lose your Ferrothorn only to get the rest of your team swept later on.

Reuniclus is not going to be an easy Pokemon for your team to handle as the HP on Jirachi is very crucial. If Jirachi is weakened, then Reuniclus gets and easy chance to make a sweep. Thundurus with Lum Berry can just outright sweep your whole team after a Nasty Plot. Swords Dance Toxicroak (can also absorb your Toxic Spikes) with Ice Punch can also make an easy sweep through your whole team. Your only chance of beating it would be Jirachi getting a lucky Thunder paralysis. Nasty Plot Celebi also has an easy chance of sweeping your whole team, where your only way of 'stalling' it is using Blissey to Toxic it. Virizion is very unpredictable, can be either a CM sweeper, SD sweeper, or Mixed. Meaning you will have a hard time deciding on which one it is and it also has a nice opportunity to sweep your whole team. Both Celebi and Virizion can be controlled as long as you have Toxic Spikes up. I can't really give you a good answer to fix all these problems, because these are the main weaknesses to any rain stall teams. The best thing you can hope for is to play really well using Team Preview as an advantage.

I also see a problem with Jellicent for this team, where your only way of beating it using Jirachi (and yet Jirachi's Thunder won't KO and has a hard time coming in on Scald in the rain). Since you dropped Politoed's Speed, you're going to have a tough time Toxic'ing Jellicent when it can just Taunt you. So it would probably be better to have a speedy Politoed. For other purposes too, like specially defensive Swords Dance Scizor (which you would have to hope for a burn from Tentacruel's Scald to stop).

Hope that helps. Good luck!

EDIT: Make sure Gliscor and Ferrothorn are both Female, so they don't get trolled by Rivalry Haxorus.

I'll edit you into the OP since you deserve a lot of credit! I had guessed that it was perhaps your team, but then again I had no way to be sure haha.

Chansey I'll obviously try.

I actually haven't had a ton of difficulty with CB Dragonite, fortunately. Usually I just get up Stealth Rock (toed can take a hit and toxic if DNite leads), and then smart play with Ferrothorn can weaken it where Jirachi or Gliscor can revenge it. Haxorus is a fag though, and I remember playing PK's team and disliking it a lot. Hopefully it leads and I just let it take 48% from Ferrothorn and then go to Gliscor and Ice Fang + Protect + Confusion stall it out. But yeah, not gonna say Haxorus doesn't crop up as an issue from time to time haha.

People don't believe me, but Reuniclus can't really get past this team imo. Jirachi is almost always untouched when it comes into the match late game, and if I see Reun on team preview I just know that Jirachi has to be dedicated to beating Reuniclus. I think Focus Blast without a boost (or at +1 SP atk vs. +1 SP def Jirachi is doing like 25% ish) so I'm not really worried about Reuniclus. I probably would've scrapped the team if Reuniclus just ran over me lol.

Jellicent is an issue, I agree there. I cringe when I see it on team preview to be honest. Often times, I just have to play really smart to get around it (like leading the match off with Toxic on Politoed for a predicted Jelli switch). Often Tentacruel can get Tspikes down and that helps immensely. Problem with that is if the Jelli user is smart and gets in on 1 layer, Jellicent becomes way more of a problem. Usually I have to resort to just double switching a lot and PP stalling which sucks, but it can work if I play Jirachi / Gliscor right.

Celebi is a faggot, I just plan on keeping Blissey around for a while. I usually have to play accordingly and take no risks for the fear of losing Blissey and letting Celebi run me over. Lum Thund is a major problem, I hope it misses! Toxicroak is the lamest of all mons, but it's just hard to find something to beat it without opening up another weakness. Virizion I just gotta take my chances. On the ladder I just assume CM, and if its SD, I tip my cap.

Originally Posted by Fat Gimmick

I agree with PK Gaming to have Skarm over Gliscor. It eliminates the Ice factor from Gliscor and frees up a spot on Ferro. It really depends on your liking what to do with the extra spot, but you could replace Spikes with SR which then frees a spot on Blissey. You could add extra support our scout with protect. Or you could just have a curse variant on Ferro to wall many of the threats.

I'll try it out.

Originally Posted by Fat VERAKS

very strong team and yeah i agree with changing to chansey with eviolite but i also cant help but notice your kind of weak to thundurus once bliss/chansey is gone and rachi is weekend

Yeah that's why I just gotta keep Bliss/Chans around and in good health.

Originally Posted by Fat WECAMEASROMANS

You have no way of beating bulk up Conkeldurr if toxic spikes aren't down. Gliscor does not stall it out since it doesn't carry toxic, and it can easily set up against you and regain all its health with drain punch and do a ton of damage to you with payback.

Yes I do. Toxic Spikes eliminate it. Even if those aren't up, 2 of my mons can Toxic it, and 3 if you count on the switch. In addition 2 can Scald burn which is gg for conk. Then Jirachi is gonna win if its already at +1 or so.

Originally Posted by Fat Riskyy

This is my team except blissey over gastro. Which means my teams good, right? :D

I guess! Blissey is p important to the team's success though.

Originally Posted by Fat shadowxevo

Erm, what do you do against opposing Ferrothorn? I don't see much you can do to it.

You have to burn it. Tentacruel can also kind of take it on if I slip up and give up a ton of hazards. Jirachi also sets up all over Ferrothorn.

Originally Posted by Fat Eternal

All he needs to do is Toxic or burn the Conkeldurr with his team (which he has many ways of doing so) and send in Gliscor. Meaning, good game Conkeldurr. As Gliscor can Sub+Protect stall out Conkeldurr's HP. Drain Punching the Substitute will only allow you to recover 50% of the damage you inflicted when you broke the Substitute (not enough to save yourself from getting Sub+Protect stalled while inflict by poison or burn).

Thanks, hit the nail on the head.

[toshimelonhead]

I've always viewed this team as the "worst kept secret on Smogon" since all of the top players have used it or some version at some point. Congrats to everyone involved making the team as it very much deserves a place in the RMT archive. Well done!

[Reiko]

Great team! One thing I was thinking though was jirachi seemed kinda random but I can see how it fits now...I'd prolly put thundurus over Jirachi mainly because of thunderus being an all around boss but its just a suggesstion..other then that good team :]

[Pocket]

Great team, undisputed. Although your team have the resources to toxic-stall out Thundurus (I mean 3 pokes with Protect, :0), I still think Thunder Wave on Blissey is a more solid answer to Thundurus and Virizion. I mean with toxic-stalling it all goes down to guessing and bringing in the right mon on the right move. However, after Thundurus Nasty Plots as you switch in Blissey and Focus Blasts as she poison him, there is no safe switch-in, and a wrong prediction would lead to a dead poke or 2.

However, with paralysis, your mon can revenge it with Rain-boosted Scalds and Super effective Ice Fang, etc. Virizion is also a threat like Thundurus, because it outruns everything. Once its paralyzed, though, Jirachi with Psyshock can deal with both CM and SD variants. CM variants would have to hit Jirachi with Focus Blast, which combined with paralysis, is a 50-50 chance; for SD variant Jirachi can simply Substitute until LO recoil, special defense drops from Close Combat, or fully paralysis happens for Jirachi to Psyshock KO safely.

[Vitalise]

Hey Nice team, You lack a spinblocker. If you set your Hazards up and they spin them away you pretty much have lost in my opion. I have had this done to me many times due to the lack of a spinblocker and had a hard time getting back up all my hazards and just ending up losing

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat undisputed

Maybe it's because you haven't played Pokemon in a while, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. First of all, Forretress is going to be coming in on Stealth Rock + a layer of Spikes in all likelihood, so thats 24% right off the bat. Then if were looking at Spinning, were looking at another 24% which comes pretty close to 50% in a game likely scenario. Then we can add Leech Seed which is gonna tack on 12% every turn if Ferrothorn is in, so on the best Pokemon Forretress can come in to spin vs. were looking at about 40-50% damage which, I mean, doesn't really stop Forretress anymore. Plus Ferrothorn can keep setting up Spikes so there will continuously be Spikes on the field.

Then if Forry comes in on any other Pokemon on the team, it maybe gets one spin before its 1 or 2 hit koed. Politoed is gonna get at least one Scald and a burn is not unlikely at all. Forretress is more than likely going to come in on a Blissey Seismic Toss, and since Blissey is faster, were looking at about 1 Spin for Forretress. Then Tentacruel easily destroys Forretress, while Gliscor and Jirachi can all ko or set up on it after it takes some damage switching in.

I'm not sure where Forretress is just magically removing everything without taking a lot of damage. Perhaps you could clarify? Realistically the only situation Forretress has ever been a problem is if somebody basically dedicates it to spinning my hazards right as I set them up. Even then, Jirachi gets to set up for free, so unless you're a Sun team with Forretress, I can't say Forretress is beating me.

If you still don't understand, feel free to watch GS vs. ENZ0 for Smogon Tour and you'll see that Forretress' Spins barely came into play at all before it fainted (im not even sure if it spun?)

But Forretress doesn't need to switch in repeatedly. It only needs to switch in ONCE. Yes, it'll take about 50% to spin away three layers of Spikes and Stealth Rock, but it just wasted 4 of your turns. You need to spend a bunch of turns just to get those hazards back up again. Even if the Forretress user lets you set up all 6 layers, it can still spin at least, probably twice since your team lacks things that can hit it very hard anyway. I'd gladly trade a Forretress to waste 12 of your turns.

But anyway, since spinning isn't that common these days, it's not much of a problem. This is still a very solid team and congrats on that. I just noticed something else, though. If Murphy's Law works against you, you'll have some trouble with Virizion. Right now, Blissey isn't exactly safe and you take 64.15% - 75.63% from +1 Focus Blast, while it can set up on most of your Pokemon. This leaves Jirachi, and the only you can do is hope to paralyse it with Thunder and hope luck doesn't work against you. All I can say is put change the EV spread on Blissey to 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm for special walling, or switch to Chansey with same spread. SD versions are even more troublesome since you can only hope for Scald burns, and Ice Fang doesn't do much. I do think Skarm fits the team better than Gliscor does, but whatever.

[Curtains]

how about giving gliscor enough speed to outpace adamant toxicroak. So at least you can take a risk in killing it. Also how about running a defensive ferrothorn to take care of landorus. That should make those problems a little more easy to handle.

[BurningMan]

How do you handle SD Luke? He is quite rare, but your best checks are Tentacruel and Jirachi and both will likely die in the process to cripple him.

DD Scrafty seems similar dangerous, but could be handled with the all those protect users to make HJK fail.

[badabing]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

how about giving gliscor enough speed to outpace adamant toxicroak. So at least you can take a risk in killing it. Also how about running a defensive ferrothorn to take care of landorus. That should make those problems a little more easy to handle.

Its something like 180 speed evs for Gli to outpace standard SD + 3 Attacks Croak. Not really a worthwhile investment because he can just run psychic on rachi, rather than compromise the bulk of his go-to wall for Terakion and the like.

[undisputed]

Originally Posted by Fat toshimelonhead

I've always viewed this team as the "worst kept secret on Smogon" since all of the top players have used it or some version at some point. Congrats to everyone involved making the team as it very much deserves a place in the RMT archive. Well done!

thanks!

Originally Posted by Fat Kobra

Great team! One thing I was thinking though was jirachi seemed kinda random but I can see how it fits now...I'd prolly put thundurus over Jirachi mainly because of thunderus being an all around boss but its just a suggesstion..other then that good team :]

Haha, Thunderus is a boss, but I'm not sure it fits. Jirachi's bulk and ability to set up on defensive threats really makes the team run. The metagame's defensive threats are too over prepared for Thundurus so it's difficult to use despite being the best pokemon.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Great team, undisputed. Although your team have the resources to toxic-stall out Thundurus (I mean 3 pokes with Protect, :0), I still think Thunder Wave on Blissey is a more solid answer to Thundurus and Virizion. I mean with toxic-stalling it all goes down to guessing and bringing in the right mon on the right move. However, after Thundurus Nasty Plots as you switch in Blissey and Focus Blasts as she poison him, there is no safe switch-in, and a wrong prediction would lead to a dead poke or 2.

However, with paralysis, your mon can revenge it with Rain-boosted Scalds and Super effective Ice Fang, etc. Virizion is also a threat like Thundurus, because it outruns everything. Once its paralyzed, though, Jirachi with Psyshock can deal with both CM and SD variants. CM variants would have to hit Jirachi with Focus Blast, which combined with paralysis, is a 50-50 chance; for SD variant Jirachi can simply Substitute until LO recoil, special defense drops from Close Combat, or fully paralysis happens for Jirachi to Psyshock KO safely.

Thanks dude. Like I mentioned earlier, I feel like Thunder Wave could be counter productive especially with Toxic Spikes. Plus I feel like Toxic would be a little more efficient anyway since some smart switches can just neutralize most mons, but with Paralysis, you have to make sure you get something in to OHKO that doesn't get slammed by a potentially obvious move.

Originally Posted by Fat Majestic

Hey Nice team, You lack a spinblocker. If you set your Hazards up and they spin them away you pretty much have lost in my opion. I have had this done to me many times due to the lack of a spinblocker and had a hard time getting back up all my hazards and just ending up losing

That happens a lot, and I usually don't lose. If your opponent is getting up a lot of hazards, you're not doing it right... The worst that usually happens is I play no hazards + 6 walls against stuff that likely can't break through me.

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

But Forretress doesn't need to switch in repeatedly. It only needs to switch in ONCE. Yes, it'll take about 50% to spin away three layers of Spikes and Stealth Rock, but it just wasted 4 of your turns. You need to spend a bunch of turns just to get those hazards back up again. Even if the Forretress user lets you set up all 6 layers, it can still spin at least, probably twice since your team lacks things that can hit it very hard anyway. I'd gladly trade a Forretress to waste 12 of your turns.

"yes, you're right"

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

But anyway, since spinning isn't that common these days, it's not much of a problem. This is still a very solid team and congrats on that. I just noticed something else, though. If Murphy's Law works against you, you'll have some trouble with Virizion. Right now, Blissey isn't exactly safe and you take 64.15% - 75.63% from +1 Focus Blast, while it can set up on most of your Pokemon. This leaves Jirachi, and the only you can do is hope to paralyse it with Thunder and hope luck doesn't work against you. All I can say is put change the EV spread on Blissey to 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm for special walling, or switch to Chansey with same spread. SD versions are even more troublesome since you can only hope for Scald burns, and Ice Fang doesn't do much. I do think Skarm fits the team better than Gliscor does, but whatever.

Yeah Virizion is in the same catergory as Celebi. Keep Blissey / Chansey at good enough health where it can take a +1 Focus Blast, and then just toxic it and switch / protect stall it to death. Usually works without fail. I'm going to be trying both the Bliss spread and Chansey though, since those all sound like solid suggestions.

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

how about giving gliscor enough speed to outpace adamant toxicroak. So at least you can take a risk in killing it. Also how about running a defensive ferrothorn to take care of landorus. That should make those problems a little more easy to handle.

Not worth the bulk I lose imo. Also I think defensive Ferrothorn gets 2hko'd although I could be wrong. I remember thinking about that at one point, but then I was like NAH isn't worth it.

Originally Posted by Fat BurningMan

How do you handle SD Luke? He is quite rare, but your best checks are Tentacruel and Jirachi and both will likely die in the process to cripple him.

DD Scrafty seems similar dangerous, but could be handled with the all those protect users to make HJK fail.

Gliscor handles non Ice-Punchers obviously. Tentacruel usually takes a dump on Lucario. Since they're often Life Orbed and CC lowers Sp Def, Jirachi revenges efficiently. I can also knock off health with Ferrothorn by using my brain and getting it in on a non CC. Not a huge issue. It has a hard time setting up on anything besides Blissey or if I don't want to sac my Thorn.

Originally Posted by Fat badabing

Its something like 180 speed evs for Gli to outpace standard SD + 3 Attacks Croak. Not really a worthwhile investment because he can just run psychic on rachi, rather than compromise the bulk of his go-to wall for Terakion and the like.

Yeah, I agree. Toxicroak is just such a random threat I'm torn between just not giving a shit or changing to Psychic haha.

[Pocket]

Quagsire can really help with your set-up sweeper problems. It can handle the same threats that Gliscors handles, such as Landorus, Terrakion, Excadrill, DDNite, and Conkeldurr. The only downside of losing Gliscor is that your team is more vulnerable to Adamant LO Excadrill and Breloom may become a serious problem :/

[franky]

hi,

this looks like a great team and i don't have much to suggest. my first suggestion with fixing your croak weakness is possibly going for an ev spread on 252 hp / 80 def / 176 spe jolly+ nature on gliscor. this allows you to patch up your issue with toxicroak and ice punch. with the drop of overall defense, just know you'll be hard pressed to make competent decisions against terakion- ultimately preventing it to get one sd. however, should it get one sd, you could still survive +2 stone edge because it deals (70.79% - 83.43%). the current spread still gives you 354 hp / 306 def- which is quite durable still. this allows you to outpace swords dance lucario as well should you bump into it; i'd imagine it to be troublesome if it gets swords dance.

as for other options, your landorus weakness can be patched up by using 252 hp / 252 def max relaxed+ on politoed. this is the most efficient spread in my opinion because it allows you to switch into many physically attacking sand threats. lefties earthquake from landorus deals (35.42% - 42.19%). just a random damage calc as well but irrelevant- that spread has a chance to survive +2 earthquake from excadrill (without lo). the special defensive evs are almost little to no help anyways. this is a great team dude, overall gl!

[Stunt]

p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; }
Mew @ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 16 SDef / 100 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Softboiled
- Ice Beam


This Mew set will simply dominate your team. Something to be kept in consideration.

[ssbbm]

i dunno about that, tentacruel seems like it could beat it in rain with scald and toxic spikes kill mew as well...