Exploring the Glitchmon Metagame

[Theorymon]

FYI, Abomasnow also doesn't get the glitch. Please look up the movepools of Pokemon before you suggest them. If the Pokemon does not learn Mimic, Copycat, Assist, Transform, or Metronome in gens 3 or 4, they don't get the glitch!

[waterwarrior]

I havn't played this yet (I might in the future though), so I'm not an expert, but with an immunity to Extremespeed and Fake Out and being able to take V-Creates for resisted hits with insane physical defense, why isn't RestTalk Giratina a huge threat?

[Theorymon]

Giratina's biggest issue is that its total Machoke / Machamp bait. That doesn't mean its bad though, Giratina does in fact wall Ursaring as long as it doesnt use something like Swords Dance (yes, +2 V-create in the sun 2HKOs it), and it can screw up some Groudon. Not getting the glitch really hurts it though. If you use Giratina-A, you are going to need to be extra prepared for Machoke and Machamp because they really don't care about what a Rest Talk Giratina is going to do. I'm not 100% sure if its viable just because of that huge Machoke weak though. Also, Giratina really doesn't like Magnezone much (though it can phaze if before it Shell Smashes).

Later I'll post some information about some non mimic glitch mons that I know work in this metagame, stay tunned!

[Box]

Neither sableye nor murkrow can access the glitch? I thought sableye got copycat...

And my mistake, I didn't know sturdy maintained it's previous effect.

[Theorymon]

Both Murkrow and Sableye get the glitch, the issue is that its not legal with their dreamworld ability. In fact, no 5th gen ability is legal with this glitch as far as I know, because unlike gen 4 abilities, gen 5 abilities are only found on either dream world Pokemon or 5th gen Pokemon, which means they can't get the glitch.

Please people, check to make sure your ideas are legal before you post them!

[Matthew]

What I don't understand is with the dominance of priority in the metagame why is Shell Smash so ubiquitous? All it would take is one priority user to really fuck your day up, so why do people choose to use things like Shell Smash over Dragon Dance. Unless of course they're going to go mixed, which there are non-speed boosting alternative (such as cheer up). With Shell Smash ruining your day with lowering your defensive stats, along with the lack of White Herb (because, you know, Spore) why not use something like Dragon Dance to not lower your defenses?

Is the ability to get to +2 Atk / SpA / Spe with the downside of lowering Defense and Special Defense that much better than +1 atk / spe and no downside?

[Theorymon]

The main reason Shell Smash is still seen is because most good Shell Smashers aren't very weak to priority. For example, Jirachi and Metagross would rather Shell Smash than Dragon Dance (unless they are using V-create) because that extra power is very helpful for sweeping. But yes, Shell Smashing is certainly not something every Pokemon should do. Unlike most metagames, Defense drops in streetmons can be really game changing!

Speaking of all the priority, I think because of stuff like Ursaring, defense boosting moves such as Coil (or Bulk Up if you need another 5th gen move) have serious potential. For example, lately I have been testing Coil Aerodactyl. While its defenses suck, boosting its defense (and accuracy for Head Smash) goes a long way twords making sure stuff like Ursaring doesn't maul you, bar the unlucky critical hit. I'm not 100% sure of Aero's viability yet, but so far it is working well!

I also plan on testing defensive boosting moves such as Cotton Guard for stuff like Mewtwo and Rayquaza, who atm have a very hard time dealing with all the priority. Reflect is a nice move too. I have been using it on a Quiver Dance Kyogre, and when combined with a recovery move, it can be a bitch to take down! It's still early in the testing though.

Tbh, I sorta wonder if the metagame will shift twords bulky offense. Though the threat of the Machoke and Machamp usually means that you can't go TOO defensive, but at the same time, pure offense isn't very fond of stuff like Ursaring either.

[AJC]

one pretty much can not stall in this metagame not with the majority of standard stall pokemon taken out with ease by no guard ohko moves from machoke and machamp and with no sleep clause protecting key stallers.

so i wonder if a proper stall team can even exist in this meta.

[Box]

Does OHKO bypass subs?

[AJC]

no but the majority of standard stall team pokemon lose by being slower than machoke and especially scarf machamp.

pretty much every member would have to be a combo of pressure+protect and or be faster with sub make them run out of sheer cold PP (since pressure would effectively turn it into a 4 use move) and that assumes they just are only running sheer cold.

[Box]

Stall is about good prediction, so having poke on with sturdy would solve the whole machoke issue.

[bluemon]

wait....

head smash aerodactyl? you mean.. with brave bird?

ohmygosh. i love this metagame.

[AJC]

a issue people forget is that one doesn't just have to run one of a pokemon here true bastards could run several machoke/champs some made to deal with sturdymons like running bonerang for maggys.

[bluemon]

wait. i had a great idea.
on a trick room team, (maybe with machoke) use

final gambit blissey
and
final gambit chansey.

its explosion, but 94023 times better

[danmo96]

So wait..... in this metagame, you can use any pokemon that learns mimic, and thus give them any move, and it's legal? interesting.... i feel like i want to try this out (i've got an idea for a set with Scizor)

[AJC]

i should point out only a few pokemon actually benefit greatly with the glitch.

[Matthew]

Quiver Dance Mewtwo seems interesting, though as Theorymon pointed out to me it's going to be very priority weak and I don't really want to put any defensive EVs on a sweeper. I was considering a Ghost-type but none of them are that cool... Dusclops is an interesting one, with the ability to outpace min-speed Machoke with 112 Evs and then use Sheer Cold or something, I don't know.

The practicality seems very.... useless but I'll toy around with the idea a bit longer, if only bulky Ghost-types existed

[Munchlax222]

(This is my first post though I've been looking at the forums a lot, It's quite interesting and I like the kind of off the beaten track meta games where new threats can be discovered easily)

With that in mind I bring the idea of Shuckle.

With Sturdy this little guy ticks all the boxes of a Trick Room Machoke counter
-Bring in on Sheer Cold.
-Outspeed EVERYTHING in the trick Room and then Power Split on the oncoming DynamicPunch (or hopefully Ursaring)
-From there you out speed, have the same attack and probably better defense than the titanic Ursaring/Groudon looking down on you.
The rest of the set can be hopefully used up to what ever threats bother you most. Shuckle gets Mimic in Gen III. Shuckle ,if he meets an Ursaring and power Swap's it can also U-turn in Substitute Mewtwo and take down everything.

Well, is it useful?

[jc104]

Tomahawk9: both of those sets are illegal. As the glitch occurs in gen 4 it is illegal with all gen 5 abilities, including magic mirror. Arceus doesn't learn mimic.

Anyway, you have hit upon two Pokemon which might work without access to the glitch. Espeon would certainly help to discourage the use of Spore, but would otherwise be almost totally useless. Ghost Arceus definitely has some potential, but I have yet to find a good set for it. The main issue is the lack of Lum berry, but it also lacks power with SD/CM. I'm pretty sure SD normal Arceus works though.

edit: another set:


Machamp@ Lum Berry
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Def / 208 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Sheer Cold
- Shift Gear
- DynamicPunch
- Hypnosis / ExtremeSpeed

Analysis

---

I used a similar Machamp set absolutely ages ago, perhaps even before Machoke was discovered. I've revamped it a bit, but I still haven't been able to test it fully, as there are too few people on the server. I'd still like to know exactly what EspyOwner uses. Even so, it is clear that this Machamp set carries several advantages over the more common Machoke. The greatest of these is the ability to carry Lum berry. If someone is relying on sleep moves to deal with Machoke, this may well give them some serious problems. Secondly, it has the ability to hit much, much harder. If you can support it with Stealth Rock to break Sturdy, it will easily OHKO Magnezone with +1 DynamicPunch, and will do excellent damage to most other sturdy Pokemon. Thirdly, stuff that outruns this at +2 is perhaps even rarer than stuff that outruns Machoke under TR, given that most things with greater than 130 Base Speed are frail, and that Choice Scarf Pokemon can become setup bait. Trick Room can also disadvantage certain teammates. Finally, though this is not usually relevant, I like to use this on my Baton Pass team. Baton Passing to Machoke is utterly futile.

What Machoke has over this though is quite a lot of bulk. Machoke's defense is roughly 1.5x better, taking into account the fact that it can run max hp/def and Machamp can't. If you use a Scarf Machamp as in the OP, it will obviously be even frailer. Therefore, Machamp cannot afford to take so much damage while setting up. It needs to be in pretty good shape to defeat Ursaring. Ironically, Machoke is actually one of the easiest Pokemon to set up on, as long as Trick Room isn't up.

The spread lets Machamp outrun base 130s at +2, and then maximises defense, which is absolutely necessary for Ursaring and other priority Pokemon. Two Ursaring will still beat you, but at least you can take out one. Even Machoke will often fall to two Ursaring. This set's power is still sufficient to deal with Magnezone and other Fighting-weak sturdy Pokemon. Even with maximum power it still isn't going through Skarm. The fourth slot is mainly just filler. A sleep move can help against sturdy Pokemon, and can help Machamp to set up. Hypnosis > Spore just in case the opponent has a Sap Sipper Pokemon (of the non-Grass-type sleep moves, Hypnosis has the highest PP. You can use Lovely Kiss or Sing if the idea of that amuses you). ExtremeSpeed is very weak but if you have space for it, why not? You might just take down a weakened Ursaring. You could use Agility instead of Shift Gear, which would then let you use V-Create in the last slot. With an Adamant nature you can guarantee to OHKO Skarmory with it in the sun after SR. I think this is too situational, though.

[Poppy]

was watching tmon and another user play this a week or two back, looks like a rad metagame, however, i'm probably gonna watch for it to flesh out a bit before getting into it.

i saw coil aerodactyl used by tmon and it worked a lot better than i thought it would, thko'd groudon with BB at +1 LO.

really cool meta! hope it becomes big.

edit: perhaps include an example team in the OP? would make it a lot easier for people to get into the tier quicker, and disillusion a lot of misguided hopefuls by exposing obviously flawed strategies.

[Fizz]

The client doesn't work on Mac, does it? :/

[jc104]

Originally Posted by Fat Fizz

The client doesn't work on Mac, does it? :/

It's just PO with an altered database. If it doesn't work try doing what it says here and putting the modified database into PO. If you use the database shown in that thread you'll have to go back to the Japanese move/Pokemon names though.

edit: the server mentioned in that thread is a different one, and most of the sets posted in the thread are really bad. Ignore what it says about those things.

[Fizz]

Alright. Got the DB, seems to be working fine. Only problem is the server seems not to be terribly popular. Ah well.

[Jirachi]

From what I've played of Mimic streetmons, a very good pokemon I used was Tail Glow Porygon2. It has really nice bulk and good neutral coverage while having crazy special attack. The set I used was the following :

Porygon2 @ Leftovers
Bold
Trace
EVs : 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
-Judgement
-Tail Glow
-Substitute
-Recover

Substitute is kinda needed with all the Spores and the OHKOes in the meta.

[zyrefredric]

^ Why not use Eviolite on that Porygon 2?