RU Initial Banlist

[SJCrew]

Get rid of Yanmega. I am tired of putting Munchlax on every team when I am absolutely certain I won't use it for anything else. I have beaten even teams with even two dedicated counters to it just by spamming Bug Buzz. Regice still takes somewhere in the 30s from Bug Buzz and is Stealth Rock weak on top of that. Regirock is also a good counter.

But that's it. If those get worn down, he's getting free kills. Not hard to do when his best counters have no reliable recovery. Seriously, just put it on your team and spam Bug Buzz. Utterly broken piece of shit that makes the tier worse in every way.

[Pwnemon]

My opinion:

YANMEGA: ban dat effer

There is one Pokemon on any team that can reliably take two hits from Speed Boost mega at full health; If it's below 3/4 you must sac to bring it in and if it's below half you're just screwed. SB Mega is too powerful.

VENOMOTH: If he was staying in the tier, I would say ban:

Having to run an insomnia/orb poke is annoying as hell and even then once I've revealed the SCARFKROW INQUISITION most get smart and QD T1 and then you're just fucked, he's surprisingly hard to OHKO without a (rare) SE attack as well.

OMASTAR: Do Not ban

My reasoning for this is fuzzier than the others, but he's fairly easy to stall out, especially those who don't happen to carry HP Elec/Grass.

GOREBYSS/HUNTAIL: Do not ban

This is highly likely to change but I've never personally seen a well constructed SmashPass, so these don't seem too threatening

[No Luck Involved]

I don't have enough time to post right now but I'll leave this here until when I do:

Ban Yanmega and Venomoth. Do not ban Omastar, Gorebyss and Huntail.

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by Fat Fried Rhys

Having a check doesn't mean somethings not broken. That's not to mention Cryogonal isn't the best check anyway, as it's an easily Pursuited, Stealth Rock weak Pokemon, that doesn't do so hot against those Pokemon anyway.

Yanmega: Cryogonal has to run Speed to beat Specs variants reliably and has to run max Special Defense to take on Life Orb Speed boost sets.

Venomoth: It can Sleep Cryogonal so you're forced to predict when your opponent will sleep, and will in all likelihood have to carry 2-3 mons that can beat it after one takes the sleep.

Huntail: Just outright KOes Cryogonal with a +2 Waterfall.

Gorebyss: Cryogonal is an alright check here.

Omastar: Hardly ever loses to Cryogonal. Even if Cryogonal lives the first +2 Attack, you'll have taken enough damage for another +2 Surf/Hydro Pump to finish you off after you Recover, as Ice Beam will not come near a KO, and you're faster, so you won't be able to Haze a second time.

Not saying those aren't valid points, but quite simply, it doesn't usually happen that way.
Venomoth can't do a single thing to Cryo. With QD it, and anything it passes to NEEDS several boosts to do anything significant to Cryo so after a worst case scenario your facing a +2 Speed Physical attacker that threatens you out as special attackers can't touch it.
Same for Yanmega. Its strongest attack against Cryo that I've seen did around 30% after Lefties.
The three ShellSmashers admittedly aren't handled great by Cryo but it does do a fairly decent job of stopping them, Gorebyss, as you said is stopped pretty hard by it with Haze.

Probably the main reason I don't have any issue with them is my team handles them fine. But get this. When I was building my team I didn't consider the SmashPassers AT ALL. The big threat I prepared for was Venomoth by putting Insomia on Honchkrow until I realized how superfluous that was. Now, I run a much more balanced team but frankly, I was far more concerned with completely stopping Rain teams which explains the presence of Ferrothorn (and thus Stealth Rocks) and also Gastrodon (who has now been replaced with Mantine who fills a very similar role).

Put simply, for a well constructed team, none of the above pokemon should hinder your effective teambuilding as none of them require mainstream checks to survive. The only pokemon on my team in the top 10 iirc is Ferroseed who isn't my primary check to any of those threats.

Also, by dint of teasting, Mantine is such a hard counter to Yanmega it isn't funny :3 I'm currenty running Scald, Ice Beam, Toxic, Haze and it works pretty brilliantly as a full stop to Mega, Venemoth, and other threats to my team like BU Gallade. Note here that Mantine wasn't selected specifically as a stop to Yanmega but rather as a pokemon to fill Gastrodon's role on my team, that role being all around special wall and rain check.

Basically what I'm rambling about is that I don't believe any of them are powerful enough to significantly inmbalance the tier, nor significantly powerful to overcentralise a tier or cause teambuildings issues. To complete the OU trinitiy of bitching, I don't think they cause undue hax either :)

[Amire]

Yanmega: No ban

The speed boost version doesn't have the power to sweep and is easily countered by special walls. The tinted lens version is a pain for many people and a really good poke, but the lack of speed doesn't make it too overwhelming. Base 95 is really good in RU, but there's still a lot of things able to outspeed and OHKO and if SR is on the field and the spinner is gone, Yanmega has no choice but staying in and die.

Venomoth: Ban

This thing is way too strong for the tier. With sleep powder, recovery, debatably the best setup move in game and a great ability, it's unstobable if it gets 2 or more sleep turns. It also has access to baton pass and if it gets passed to a poke like alakazam, it's game over. Like seriously.

Omastar: No ban

As some people earlier has said, SS is a overhyped move. Omastar is still outsped even after + 2 speed and is walled by tons of special walls. It's a great poke, but not too good for the tier.

Gorebyss: Maybe

With the right opertunity, Smash Pass from this poke can be extremely dangerous. I don't find it overpowered in this gen, as any pokemon can just whirlwind it away. As a passer, Smeargle beats it in most aspects, although I see how many teams have problems with it.

Huntail: No Ban

I've never faced one out of almost 500 RU battles, but since it has a lot worse movepool than Gorebyss I honestly doubt it is overpowered.

Why isn't Smeargle up here? In my opinion it beats both Huntail and Gorebyss when it comes to smash passing and if it gets enough sleep turns, it's gg. It also has ingrain, and if it gets the opertunity to use it, you can't even whirlwind it away.

Another overpowered poke in RU is Alakazam. With it's new ability it's just... too good.

[SJCrew]

You guys are really selling Huntail short. First of all, I have no idea what the above poster means by "worse movepool" than Gorebyss. They have the same movepool outside of Huntail's physical options, which still cover everything in RU. Most of the time you will be only using two attacking moves, since the third will be used for Baton Pass instead unless you're using a Rain team. At least Huntail can get rid of an annoying Slowking using Crunch or something.

Point is, they are functionally the same. When you see them, they will Shell Smash the first chance they get and kill as much as they can before being forced to Baton Pass. Being physical doesn't suddenly make it have more counters. Even with a lower Special Attack score, Huntail will function essentially the same as Gorebyss. If you are against Gorebyss being in the tier, I have no idea what makes you think a Pokemon that is barely any different that it is going to be easier to handle. Is Gorebyss KOing some really important targets at +2 that Huntail isn't? I doubt it's really all that important for a Pokemon that is primarily used to Baton Pass.

[jas61292]

I'll give you one good reason why people are against Huntail being banned more then they are against Gorebyss being banned: Experience has shown that people's theories on how Pokemon should work is not a good estimate of how they actually work. Just becasue they are similar does not make them work the same. And when

Originally Posted by Fat Amire

I've never faced one out of almost 500 RU battles

you realize that banning it would be stupid. Maybe it is broken, but just because it is similar to another Pokemon that may be broken does not make it so. If people don't use it, you shouldn't ban it because you have no way of knowing if you are banning it for a good reason.

That being said, I don't think Gorebyss is broken, and when a never used Pokemon is similar no a not broken Pokemon, all you do is ignore it.

[SJCrew]

'It's not that popular so it must not be good, right?' is about as bad as it gets in terms of logic. You still haven't addressed the fact that they're practically the same Pokemon.

Huntail's base stats: 55 / 104 / 105 / 94 / 75 / 52
Gorebyss's base stats: 55 / 84 / 105 / 114 / 75 / 52

Anything you would use Gorebyss for, you would also use Huntail. So why not use the one that is slightly better? Operative word being 'slightly' here - go ahead and replace Gorebyss with Huntail on all of your teams and tell me how much of a difference it makes.

Also, you don't need to rely on the people you play against to make all of your judgments. If you want to know how good a suspect is, why don't you use it yourself and get a better idea of how it works? I'm sure Yanmega would be perfectly okay with me if I never bothered to use it and just rapped on my keyboard 'its ok, never swept me, underwhaleming'.

[AlphaJolt]

I haven't played the tier in a while but I will post here anyway.

Yanmega: Ban
This thing hits like a frickin truck and nothing can withstand it. You don't even need to have a spinner to get a kill or two with it. It's not overpowering with Speed Boost but Tinted Lens puches it over the edge. It has no counters. Sure Cyroganal can check it but he's easily worn down as he's switching into Stealth Rock before taking the hit.

Venomoth: Ban
Let's look at this. Decent bulk, Quiver Dance, and Sleep Powder, LOL. It can sleep the counter and then Quiver Dance on the switch. Unless you carry multiple counters, it's going to sweep, especially if saved till late game. I've even dropped Sleep Powder and used Roost, it worked pretty well. No priority is super effective against it either so it's hard to revenge kill. It's just uncompetitive because it's too easy to pull off a sweep after sleeping the counter or Roosting off damage after a QD or two.

Omaster: Do Not Ban
He's good but not a star. Mach Punch wrecks him and there are plenty of Scarfers that outspeed him even after a SS. He might hit hard but because he's so easily revenged I don't find him broken at all.

Gorebyss: Do Not Ban
I'm not quite sure what to think about this. Sure, it's strong, but again, it's not almighty or anything. The biggest thing is BPing a SS. It has good enough bulk to do it. Also, it can attempt a sweep before BPing away the boost. I think it does have it's counters, but I used Blastoise who is now UU. Because I don't feel that strongly about it (or remember enough about facing it), I don't think it's fair for me to say "ban."

Huntail: Do Not Ban
See above.

[Amarillo]

@Stupid arguments saying that Gorebyss is miles better than Huntail

Banning overpowered mons have nothing to do with usage. Huntail and Gorebyss do exactly the same thing! Other than the fact that Gorebyss has higher special attack and Huntail can go physical / mixed. But, they aren't going to be sweeping by themselves. In fact, their 'brokenness' comes from the ability to pass those boosts away. If you have a broken team with Gorebyss, you can then replace it with Huntail for the same purposes. It's just that the Gorebyss usage is that much higher that people go looking for a Smashpasser and see that Gorebyss and Smeargle are the most often used ones-- people don't look any further.

Seriously, it's not really that "If it's better, then it must be used more often." It's that "they're basically the same mon, and because one is used more often than the other, there must be a reason and you should go for the more often used one." Just my two cents.

[bro fist]

Gorebyss and Huntail are pretty much interchangeable in what they do which is basically shell smashing and attempting to sweep until they're forced to baton pass out to something else. I don't think saying one is better than the other is really fair here.

[Nails]

Originally Posted by Fat Texas Cloverleaf

Venomoth can't do a single thing to Cryo. With QD it, and anything it passes to NEEDS several boosts to do anything significant to Cryo so after a worst case scenario your facing a +2 Speed Physical attacker that threatens you out as special attackers can't touch it.
Same for Yanmega. Its strongest attack against Cryo that I've seen did around 30% after Lefties.

25% from SR plus 30% from bug buzz after lefties leaves you at 45%, meaning that if it's taken more than 10% damage (which considering the fact that most teams rely on it for spinning is fairly likely) then you no longer can switch into it. On paper it checks it but in reality it's not the completely reliable failsafe counter you're making it out to be. I will post calcs later but Venomoth can handle Cryogonal by sleeping it and then spamming bug buzz (see mantine, it's basically the same process).

The three ShellSmashers admittedly aren't handled great by Cryo but it does do a fairly decent job of stopping them, Gorebyss, as you said is stopped pretty hard by it with Haze.

We're in agreement that Cryogonal can't check the shell smashers. Fried_Rhys did a good job here explaining why.

Also, by dint of testing, Mantine is such a hard counter to Yanmega it isn't funny. I'm currenty running Scald, Ice Beam, Toxic, Haze and it works pretty brilliantly as a full stop to Mega, Venemoth, and other threats to my team like BU Gallade.

Mantine is one of the mons like munchlax and regice that can switch into Yanmega once and then dies the next time it tries to switch in (you have nothing to stop it from switching out). After SR, it's down to 75%. It isn't 2hkoed after SR, but it is 2hkoed the next time you try to switch in. In fact, specs bug buzz can 3hko you and all you can manage back is a toxic or an uninvested ice beam, so you don't even counter Yanmega; it wins. It still gets its kill per game, and it's not even crippled by Mantine.I haven't seen any Mantines, so this is what I had written based on theorymon before I ran calcs. After running calcs, I came to the conclusion that it's not even that good. Modest specsmega does 38.3% - 45.2% to max/max calm mantine with bug buzz. After SR, that's a 2hko roughly 66% of the time, meaning that you don't even move most of the time. Again for emphasis, this is a max/max+ mantine.

As for Venomoth, it can sleep you and spam neutral stab or just pass out to an electric type and boost later. You can't toxic it because of its poison typing, so you're reduced to hazing it and hoping for scald burns. Cromoth destroys you.Again, using Max/Max+ Mantine, +1 leftovers 252 modest venomoth does 32.3%-38% with bug buzz. Assuming you haze the first turn after you switch in and that it doesn't go for the 75% autowin with sleep powder, it wins -even if- you get a scald burn on your first possible chance. If it does go for the sleep, it can boost again, do 43.1% - 50.6% with a +2 buzz, and you have to hope that you wake up. Even if you do wake up and haze, it can just sleep you again and get +1 before killing you. If it's life orb Venomoth it can do 41.9% - 49.4% (43.1%-50.9% with HP rock) at +1. Lum Venomoth has the same calcs as lefties but can avoid the first time you get a burn with scald (scald burns are not guaranteed anyways). Cromoth obviously destroys Mantine. Long story short, every Venomoth set destroys Mantine. Mantine 100% loses to Venomoth.
Mantine works well for Omastar and Gorebyss, as long as niether run hidden power electric (which is more viable now that gastrodon is ou).+2 LO Omastar does 46.1% - 54.5% to Mantine with Ice Beam, which isn't enough to ever 2hko assuming a haze. However, it's a guaranteed 3hko, and all Mantine can do back is Scald for 34% - 40.4%, which is better than nothing, but you still lose. Ancientpower Omastar does 86.8% - 103% at +2, hp electric always ohkoes. Modest Life Orb +2 Gorebyss does 45.5% - 53.9% with Ice Beam, and White Herb does 35.3% - 41.3%. Like Omastar, you can stop its boosts but you still lose if it decides to attack. And same as before, HP electric ohkoes.

Huntail does 108.4% - 127.5% with LO Return, and 83.2% - 98.2% with White Herb. No chance, always an ohko after rocks.

tl;dr Mantine blocks Gorebyss from passing but dies in the process. It loses to Omastar but stops it from sweeping, barring HP electric or ancientpower. Venomoth winds up with +1 and all sets beat mantine easily. Yanmega outright 2hkoes it 66% of the time, and can stay in to ko it the rest of the time. Huntail always ohkoes it after a boost.

The best mantine can do to any of the suspects is block them, but it has to sacrifice itself to have a chance of taking down a smashed mon. It can be bypassed by changing up your moveset, and you only lose coverage on Lanturn by running HP electric over grass.

Mantine does not "hard counter" any of the suspects. Please back up your statements when posting.

[jas61292]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

'It's not that popular so it must not be good, right?' is about as bad as it gets in terms of logic. You still haven't addressed the fact that they're practically the same Pokemon.

Huntail's base stats: 55 / 104 / 105 / 94 / 75 / 52
Gorebyss's base stats: 55 / 84 / 105 / 114 / 75 / 52

Anything you would use Gorebyss for, you would also use Huntail. So why not use the one that is slightly better? Operative word being 'slightly' here - go ahead and replace Gorebyss with Huntail on all of your teams and tell me how much of a difference it makes.

Also, you don't need to rely on the people you play against to make all of your judgments. If you want to know how good a suspect is, why don't you use it yourself and get a better idea of how it works? I'm sure Yanmega would be perfectly okay with me if I never bothered to use it and just rapped on my keyboard 'its ok, never swept me, underwhaleming'.

I never once said that it wasn't popular so it must not be good. I said that the past has show that theories are often wrong, so without empirical proof it should not be banned.

Additionally, I have used Huntail, because I like it more than Gorebyss. Not very much though. You know why? Because it was terrible. Maybe Smash Passing is just not my forte, but after a few battles I gave up because there was nothing it could do that someone else I have used couldn't do better.

And as I have said before, I don't think Gorebyss is broken either. So I don't think either one should go. My point was that you should not ban a Pokemon when you have not seen it in action enough, even if it supposedly is good.

Two more things though. Those stats right there you posted should show you how much better Gorebyss is. Just think of it this way, what is easier to wall: A 120 BP attack coming off 114 Base SpA or a 80 BP attack coming off 104 base Atk. I don't know about you, but to me, the difference is obvious.

And finally. Smash Pass is overrated. Maybe in the higher tiers with monster sweepers it is a big problem, but down here in RU I have never, ever seen a Smas Pass strategy work. And when the users themselves are not that threatening, it just doesn't work. Maybe some people can do it, but as a whole, it is just not that good, and does not deserve to be even considered for a ban.

[MMF]

Yanmega: Ban
Yanmega is just too strong for this tier imo. The SpecsLens set has the power to muscle through almost all balanced/stall teams while the Speed boost set rips apart Offensive teams like they're nothing.

Venomoth: Ban

Venomoth is very uncompetive. Having the ability to sleep a counter and then Quiver Dance up is the main factor in its brokeness.

Omastar: Do not ban

Like many people have already said, Omastar is good but its still relatively slow even after a Shell Smash and is revenged by Mach Punch.

Gorebyss: Do not Ban

To be honest I haven't seen many of these but when I do its kinda underwhelming. Good but not ban-worthy.

Huntail: Do not ban

See above statement

[Fried Rhys]

Like many people have already said, Omastar is good but its still relatively slow even after a Shell Smash and is revenged by Mach Punch

I do not understand where the priority arguments are coming from. Did you know that even at -1 Defense, 252 EV Adamant Hitmonchan isn't guaranteed to KO Omastar with Iron Fist and a Life Orb even after Stealth Rock? This doesn't even account for the possibility of White Herb, which would allow that same Mach Punch to do only 70% max. If you stay in on whatever Pokemon Omastar attempts to setup on to weaken it enough to be revenged by priority, go ahead, but that goes both ways. You run the risk of having hazards set up on you (hazard support is still a good set btw), which are much harder to spin away with Blastoise gone from RU. This is what makes the Shell Smashers broken. They wouldn't be broken as just sweepers. They wouldn't be broken as just supporters. But they do both so well, that it's quite unreasonable to manage.

[zdrup15]

Yanmega: Ban

It has an amazing set in Specs Tinted Lens, which can, unless the opp has very specific pokemon (Clefable, Mantine, Munchlax), KO one pokemon each time it switches in. You just have to keep SR off the field. Against offensive teams, give it paralysis support and see Yanmega sweep with Bug Buzz only. Speed Boost is not that good, but instead of wallbreaking it can sweep late-game.

Venomoth: Ban Yanmega's brother is also very dangerous. It only needs to run Quiver Dance, Sleep Powder, and Bug Buzz. Then you can decide if you want it to support your sweepers with Baton Pass or sweep by itself with Roost. So it basically cripples one of your Pokemon (unless you run Insomnia Honckrow or RestTalk Munchlax, with the former being destroyed by Bug Buzz), can usually boost twice, and then you're screwed.

Gorebyss and Huntail: Ban By the same logic as Venomoth, they can both set up in one turn and then either sweep or help a sweeper. Gorebyss is a bit more dangerous because it's a little bulkier but the difference is so small you can replace it with Huntail and you won't even notice it.

Omastar: Do Not Ban I think this one can stay a bit longer. It has to opt between the opponents it wants to beat with Hidden Power but that's not the main point. Its typing is worse than the aforementioned Shell Smashers: with many Fighting-types on the metagame and some priority attacks, this often makes the difference between a sweep and only one KO. If you opt for Life Orb, chances are you are open to a revenge kill. If you go with White Herb, you have a better chance of sweeping but you need some extra support from your team.

[SuperPascal]

As a member who played RU since the day it was created and the current #1 on the smogon ladder (not bragging or anything :P), I feel like I need to say my opinion on these pokémon.

Yanmega:Ban
Yes, Yanmega has its counters (mainly Munchlax) and the RU metagame somehow adapted itself to it over the months but it's still insanely powerful. If it wasn't weak to stealth rock, I would say it's downright broken. If you team isn't prepare to specs-tinted lens and speed boost Yanmega, then you are in for some trouble.

Venomoth: Abstain
You need to carry a sleep absorber for him (guts Hariyama with fake out and toxic orb, sleep talk Munchlax or toxic orb clefable for example) to counter it. A lot of strong pokémon like entei can also check it once sleep clause is activated. I honestly never had any problem with opposing venomoth thanks to Guts Hariyama. I also feel like so many people wants to ban Venomoth because of my bulky set (see my RMT for more details). Nobody's prepared for it and that's why 2/3 of my battle ends with a Venomoth sweep.

Omatar: Do not Ban
Omastar simply because most scarfers, mach punch users can all bat it. Good special wall like munchlax can also check it. It's still one of the best pokémon in the tier. I honestly don't know why he isn't used a whole lot.

Gorebyss:Do not Ban
Gorebyss as a sweeper is arguably outclassed by Omastar and every good team should be ready to counter smashpass team. You simply need a phazer or an all-around offensive team (leaving no time to set-up) and your good to go).

Huntail: Do not Ban
If we don't ban Gorebyss, then why would we ban Huntail?

[SJCrew]

Two more things though. Those stats right there you posted should show you how much better Gorebyss is. Just think of it this way, what is easier to wall: A 120 BP attack coming off 114 Base SpA or a 80 BP attack coming off 104 base Atk. I don't know about you, but to me, the difference is obvious.

That's actually completely wrong, since most of the physical walls in the tier are weak to Water or have invested in Special Defense specifically for things like Gorebyss. That's what allows things like Aqua Tail to KO (standard) specially defensive Mandibuzz and Clefable. Even if Huntail just ran Special Attack, it would hit the same 2HKOs as Gorebyss would on really bulky special walls. Neither can OHKO Poliwrath with HP Grass, for example. That extra 20 base Sp. Att is a liberty, not a gamechanging factor that ultimately makes Huntail less effective at its job.

But it doesn't matter. Two moves, one Baton Pass. If one is ruining the tier, the other is capable of doing exactly the same thing.

And finally. Smash Pass is overrated.

I agree. But you lose me when you say that Huntail isn't just going to come right behind Gorebyss and do exactly the same thing if one of the two were banned. Most voters have common sense enough to get rid of things even without high usage because of how blatantly broken they are, like Gen 4 Wobbuffet and Deoxys-N. Placing your faith entirely in usage without considering the logic behind it will always bear eschewed results.

[Cloud 8]

I suppose I will contribute.

Yanmega and Venomoth need to go. They severely limit team building and *insert reasons already stated above*.

I must abstain from the others for now as I have not encountered many but I think they should be tested in a Yanmega-less metagame first considering most things that check Yanmega can also beat them (CB Entei Extremespeed on everything besides Omastar, Specially defensive mons like Munchlax etc.) I think they will then be more broken as the usage of niche checks to Yanmega will fall significantly. I don't know how I feel about SmashPass being broken though, the -1 Def makes it significantly harder to pass but as I said, I abstain.

As far as Huntail VS. Gorebyss I also agree that they are the same. If you only ban Gorebyss Huntail will fill its spot and be possibly even more broken considering most teams focus on special defense as apposed to physical defense in RU.

[jas61292]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

That's actually completely wrong, since most of the physical walls in the tier are weak to Water or have invested in Special Defense specifically for things like Gorebyss. That's what allows things like Aqua Tail to KO (standard) specially defensive Mandibuzz and Clefable. Even if Huntail just ran Special Attack, it would hit the same 2HKOs as Gorebyss would on really bulky special walls. Neither can OHKO Poliwrath with HP Grass, for example. That extra 20 base Sp. Att is a liberty, not a gamechanging factor that ultimately makes Huntail less effective at its job.

You have a point. I mostly never noticed this though because I never use a water weak physical wall (Though I may have to now with both my favorite walls going up to UU). At the same time though, assuming Yanmega and Venomoth go, many Physical walls will no longer feel that need to invest in SpD, at which point they very well could function differently. As such i still feel they are different enough to tier separately, but for now, I don't think either should be going anywhere (except possibly to NU)

[Ningildo]

Yanmega:Ban
This debate has been brought up so many times. Why not? SR weak, crappy Sp Def etc. No. I disagree with that. For one thing, it, in all seriousness, needs to come in only one time to crush teams. And that time is when it's counters are either dead or barely standing, which is easy to do with just a little team support. Once it gets in then, gg. Even though it can be handled without too much difficulty, it's presence is still unhealthy for the metagame, forcing certain pokemon to be on teams and making playstyles unplayable...man, that DOES sound like Excadrill...(ignore that last bit).

Venomoth:Maybe
I'm on the fence on this one. On one hand, it is one of the best set up pokemon, if not the best, in RU due a great boosting move in QD and Sleep Powder. Combine it with Tinted Lens and it will be quite capable of ripping apart teams. On the other, it's also physically frail, with 70 HP and 60 Defense, making it easy to knock out with a strong physical hit, such as Sharpedo's Waterfall (or Aqua Jet when Moth has some QD's under it's belt). The bottom line is: I really don't know about Venomoth.

Gorebyss and Huntail:Maybe
I haven't faced these much and when I did, they were poorly used. So I can't say anything about if they should be banned or not.

Omastar:Do not ban
Being slow is bad, being slowish even at +2 is worse. Only faced it once and even then, it was evident that it is way too slow to be a centralizing or broken force in RU. It is good, no doubt, but not to the extent where it is absolutely mandatory to carry counters for it in fear it will crush you when lacked.

[Malkyrian]

Okay, I might be a little late here, but I figure I might as well add my two cents.

Venomoth: BAN. A virtually unresisted base 90 STAB, the ability to sleep its counters, the ability to Baton Pass a Quiver Dance...just way too good for RU.

Omastar: BAN. Underrated perhaps, but seriously deadly - Rock/Water is actually a very good defensive typing in a tier with almost no Fighting/Steel priority, and couple this with that high base Defense, and access to all three hazards, and ability to Shell Smash and wipe entire teams out, and we have ourselves a monster on our hands.

Yanmega: BAN. When my very first mon on every team I make is a Yanmega answer, and my second mon is another Yanmega answer, because I know that my team will fall apart otherwise, I think there's a problem.

Gorebyss: Abstain. I've only seen a few of these, none used very effectively.

Huntail: Abstain. I haven't seen a single one in the months I've played RU.

[Nails]

After consideration of the posts in this thread and further discussion with Oglemi, Yanmega and Venomoth are banned from RU. The new megathread will be posted shortly.