np: RU Stage 1 - Welcome to the Jungle!

[Molk]

Originally Posted by Fat Amarillo

OK, first time you're said that in the thread, but if you want to say 'how many times do I have to say this" then I really don't mind that. I guess I was wrong about it completely dominating, but then you have to realize you'll have to perfect with your taunts and recovers so because you don't want to get nailed with +1 LO Shadow Ball.

My point was not about how physically defensive sableye is better. Of course specially defensive variant offers better overall bulk after the Will-o-wisp. I was talking about how it's hard to switch Sableye into things, and that point still stands.

oh i understand that part about switching in, thats why i lead with it half the time :). i have actually been correcting people in threads other than here, the official sableye analysis, the ou suspect testing threads, even on the po server when people are asking me "how the hell is your sableye so Bulky? It drives me totally insane!

[Raseri]

ScarfMoltres is really fun to abuse right now, give it Hitmonchan support and it can break walls or clean up late game easily.

Also, what do you guys use to beat MoxieKrow, I find myself having to play Sucker Punch mindgames to stand up to it.

[SuperPascal]

Moxie Honchkrow can''t have superpower. Use this information to your advantage. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot in the tier that resist flying+dark attacks. I personally check him with priority (guts boosted fake out from Hariyama does like 45%) but he still always gives me trouble. Pokémon with high defenses like Omastar can also take a +1 sucker punch (assuming he has a little HP investment) and OHKO with ice beam if Honchkrow isn't behind a sub

[Pwnemon]

Use any steel not named ferroseed and he's pretty much dead, or Rhydon can also eat him in the face.

I personally don't find Moltres to be all that hot. All he can do early game is spam ultra-weak U-turns, and late game I've never even seen him because Rocks just force him out after the first time he switches. Maybe I've just never seen a good Moltres user, but all the ones I've faced have been threat level 0.

[kniteowl]

I've been using Carracosta as my Rhypeior replacement to check honchkrow. they're both rock types to resist bravebird and have the ability solid rock to take.those hits from super power. Sadly carracosta is missing the moves people commonly use on Rhyperior, like stealth rock and sword dance but with carracosta you can carry leftovers instead of being forced to carry. evolite if you use Rhydon. You still got to he careful of hidden power grass.

[Tenodera]

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

Use any steel not named ferroseed and he's pretty much dead, or Rhydon can also eat him in the face.

I personally don't find Moltres to be all that hot. All he can do early game is spam ultra-weak U-turns, and late game I've never even seen him because Rocks just force him out after the first time he switches. Maybe I've just never seen a good Moltres user, but all the ones I've faced have been threat level 0.

Wait, why wouldn't Moltres carry HP Grass? Or do you mean the Rocks are always coming in on [Fire move] or Air Slash, in which case the Moltres users you've been playing don't like to predict.

[col49]

Originally Posted by Fat Tenodera

Wait, why wouldn't Moltres carry HP Grass? Or do you mean the Rocks are always coming in on [Fire move] or Air Slash, in which case the Moltres users you've been playing don't like to predict.

That part was directed towards Honch, not Moltres .-.

[waterwarrior]

Porygon-Z also takes Honchkrow without a Moxie boost, even with its subpar defenses. It can definitely take a Sucker Punch from a Honchkrow if its not Banded (and if it is, its incredibly easy to play around), and can outspeed it and OHKO it if it goes for Brave Bird. And the only Moltres I've ever found to be a tiny threat is Scarf Moltres... but that was before I carried Clefable to lay down Rocks (flame on people, I did run a team without hazards for a very long time)

[Himanattsu]

Even though Charizard is more common in this tier, my set that I used a while ago would still be the best to use for Sableye's new ability...

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...2&postcount=94

[Pwnemon]

Originally Posted by Fat Tenodera

Wait, why wouldn't Moltres carry HP Grass? Or do you mean the Rocks are always coming in on [Fire move] or Air Slash, in which case the Moltres users you've been playing don't like to predict.

By Rocks i meant Stealth Rock, sorry for the confusion. I just think Moltres has to switch in too much for someone 4x weak to hazards.

[Brophlosion]

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

By Rocks i meant Stealth Rock, sorry for the confusion. I just think Moltres has to switch in too much for someone 4x weak to hazards.

Yeah, I'm not too much of a Moltres fan either. The SR damage is just too much.

[TEA_DEMON]

moltres was a suspect last gen in uu and volcarona is ou this gen (while being spikes+tspikes vulnerable in addition). rocks isn't really a problem if you're that strong.

i'm surprised that honch is ru tbh, and i'm sort of tempted to try out ru. nothing will come of it though probably.

[waterwarrior]

1. Its a different gen, different tier. That means different pokes and different playstrategies. Latias was Uber last gen, but its quite solidly OU this gen.
2. Volcarona has QD. After one, Volcarona just becomes an absolute bawse, outspeeding almost everything, esopecially with Excadrill gone. Moltres doesn't even get CM. Just saying they're both weak to Rocks is like saying "Hey wait a minute, why isn't Delibird Uber?"

[Amire]

Originally Posted by Fat TEA_DEMON

moltres was a suspect last gen in uu

When was this? Moltres was always NU as far as I can remember lol.

I don't know about Charizard being more common lol, I meet one like every 25th battle or something.

[TEA_DEMON]

Originally Posted by Fat waterwarrior

1. Its a different gen, different tier. That means different pokes and different playstrategies. Latias was Uber last gen, but its quite solidly OU this gen.
2. Volcarona has QD. After one, Volcarona just becomes an absolute bawse, outspeeding almost everything, esopecially with Excadrill gone. Moltres doesn't even get CM. Just saying they're both weak to Rocks is like saying "Hey wait a minute, why isn't Delibird Uber?"

1. i am aware of that, i was just saying that rocks isn't the be-all-end-all of whether a poke is good or not.
2. not having access to a boosting move doesn't stop, say, heatran from being solidly ou. 125 base spa is going to hurt boosted or not.

Originally Posted by Fat Amire

When was this? Moltres was always NU as far as I can remember lol.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67909

[SuperPascal]

With Yanmega, Venomoth and Cress gone, all the best fighting resists are gone. I think it's time for fighting types like Medicham, Hariyama and Gallade to shine. Thankfully, there's still Honchkrow to check them.

[Amarillo]

For medicham and Gallade, the biggest roadblock is the new Prankster Sableye which walls their STAB and burns them. Hariyama's the only one who has a chance at breaking prankster Sableye. Other than that, though, the whole tier doesn't stand much a chance. (Oh, and Golurk got sent to UU as well ==)

Oh, and the only Honchie set that can ever be faster than all of them is the Scarf variant, which is easily played around. If you say revenger, then Magic Guard Alakazam is one of the best.

[ASteelersMidget]

Originally Posted by Fat Amarillo

For medicham and Gallade, the biggest roadblock is the new Prankster Sableye which walls their STAB and burns them. Hariyama's the only one who has a chance at breaking prankster Sableye. Other than that, though, the whole tier doesn't stand much a chance. (Oh, and Golurk got sent to UU as well ==)

Oh, and the only Honchie set that can ever be faster than all of them is the Scarf variant, which is easily played around. If you say revenger, then Magic Guard Alakazam is one of the best.

Gut's gurdurr with payback stops prankster saybelye as well.

[Heysup]

Reading a couple Honchkrow counters.....do people honestly not use HP Grass as the fourth move?

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Nope, Pursuit :P I really should though, Krow gets walled so hard by things like an Eviolite Rhydon its not funny. I was playing yesterday and had a +2 (iirc) Krow behind a Sub and still wouldv'e lost Krow to an Eviolite Rhydon, +2 Sucker Punch was doing like 32% (If that ends up being off it must have been +1, I have a shitty memory)

[SuperPascal]

Originally Posted by Fat Amarillo

For medicham and Gallade, the biggest roadblock is the new Prankster Sableye which walls their STAB and burns them. Hariyama's the only one who has a chance at breaking prankster Sableye. Other than that, though, the whole tier doesn't stand much a chance. (Oh, and Golurk got sent to UU as well ==)

Oh, and the only Honchie set that can ever be faster than all of them is the Scarf variant, which is easily played around. If you say revenger, then Magic Guard Alakazam is one of the best.

That's why I love my trick choice band Gallade :). Nobody expects it (until they battle me a second time).

[Lady Shinki]

The way to beat Sableye is using Lum Berry and forcing a setup opportunity with a sweeper that can cleanly 1hko it at +2. :p Since most sableye run mixed or specially defensive sets, almost every pokemon that knows Swords Dance and has at least base 100 attack can 1hko Sableye at +2 without a boosting item, and some are powerful enough to do it at +1, such as Adaptability DD Crawdaunt. Here's a couple generic example calcs to show how relatively weak Sableye is:

328 Atk vs 186 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 153 - 180 (50.33% - 59.21%)
328 Atk vs 273 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 103 - 123 (33.88% - 40.46%)

At +2, it becomes a clean ohko on specially defensive Sableye. Even 252/252 Sableye will only be able to get a burn off and won't survive to cripple another sweeper, as the previous calc is a 2hko with any hazards or residual damage. Basically, a sweeping pair is the best option. That, or going Special, or using Entei, or Charizard, or Typhlosion, or anything like that.

[Oh My Biscuits]

But after you just heal yourself with a Lum Berry, can't Sableye just use Will-o-Wisp again as you attack it?

Anyways, what about Magic Coat? A lot of interesting Pokes get it, such as Hariyama, Hitmontwins, and even Primeape gets it. This is obviously just theorymonning and gimmicky at best, but I think it might actually work.

[Lady Shinki]

I suppose I should explain it differently, since it's not a tough concept, i just didn't say it well.

1: Bring in your setup sweeper on a weak attack on something they threaten
2: The opponent goes to Sableye as you set up
3: You 1hko or 2hko depending on the variant even if it burns you the second time (which is in itself somewhat unlikely, only 56% of the time will both WoWs hit).

Yes, if it's physically defensive, it can still cripple sweeper #1 with a burn, but the goal is just to lure/beat Sableye, punch some holes with your remaining strength of the first sweeper, and then sweep with another sweeper that won't be crippled by status, like Lum SD Gatr (who has the advantage of beating Alakazam with +2 Aqua Jet) with spdef Bulk Up Gallade. :3

[PrimeMinister]

I've decided to start battling in RU, any team suggestions? Also, what possibly makes alakazam RU? I dont buy "it's defenses suck." can I have a real answer? Magic Guard with base 135 sp atk? And RU? WTF?