NU CCAT Step 4: Playtesting

[waterwarrior]

Yea, we're doing hazard-setting offense, I'm cutting the deadline. At this point, why the hell did we even need a vote?

However, there is a very big trouble before we have before we go to step 3: Slowking is most likely going RU next month. As shown by Antar's stats, he is #10 in RU, so unless he falls off the face of the earth in that tier for some reason, we're losing him. Do you guys think we should have another vote for our Forgotten Wonder, make two teams, or just go to Pinsir (the runner-up in our vote) and forget about Slowking (we're still gonna do hazard-setting offense if we go to Pinsir, there's no need for a vote). Honestly, I can go any which way, but I want to see what you guys think (tennisace, you're up).

[Furosuto]

If all else fails with slowking, then we should stick with the hazard setting offense then I think we should vote again. Now that we know what playstyle we're doing, we can choose a good mon to base the playstyle around *cough* scolipede *cough*.

[waterwarrior]

Why would we base hazards-stacking offense around Scolipede? He (or Roselia, who I actually prefer) should be the one setting Spikes up, not abusing them. Scolipede really only attacks once Spikes have been set up, so we really should have someone else dedicated to punching holes.

[tennisace]

Until like two seconds ago I was about to post saying YEAH LETS CHANGE, but then I realized we'd be overcompensating for a metagame that is in the future and not set at all. So yeah, lets make this team around Slowking, pick up the pace a bit so we get 10 days or so at the end for testing, and enjoy the last of this balanced NU metagame (because we're fucked at the end of this round).

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Until like two seconds ago I was about to post saying YEAH LETS CHANGE, but then I realized we'd be overcompensating for a metagame that is in the future and not set at all. So yeah, lets make this team around Slowking, pick up the pace a bit so we get 10 days or so at the end for testing, and enjoy the last of this balanced NU metagame (because we're fucked at the end of this round).

Yeah, there's still another month to make a team and test it before things change. Maybe it can be a reminder of how beautiful this meta was. :(

Everyone needs to tell people in RU to stop using our cool mons, kthx. Especially, y'know, ones that beat Gorebyss.

[Lady Salamence]

Yeah... Such a beutiful, peaceful metagame with nothing OP... Now RU is gonna **** that all up...

[waterwarrior]

tennisace and Zebraiken have spoken, and ye shall agree. That's pretty much how this entire process went, why disregard the power now? I believe that, instead of the somewhat chaotic process of the other CCAT's, we should know what we're dedicating a slot to before pokes are suggested willy-nilly and we have a complicated voting process for each and every teammate, only to find out that we'll have to go back and change spot 2 as spot 4 does pretty much the same thing, and it can be a lot more organized and go a lot faster (Twilight Sparkle Seal of Approval)

Therefore, I recommend we make the team like this:
-Slowking
-Hazard setter (its hazards offense, must I explain?)
-Spinblocker (possibly unnecessary, as we're restricting ourselves to Haunter and Misdreavus)
-Physical sweeper
-A spinner of our own (also arguable if we need one, Slowking usually can shrug off hazards with Regenerator, and we don't exactly have a great selection)
-filler (here is where we'll suggest pretty much anything that you think the team is lacking in, and will pretty much be the hardest slot to fill)

Any objections (Phoenix Wright-style objections preferred)?

[Axa]

I don't think we necessarily need a spinner. Like said, most of the spinners are terrible. If need be, probabaly the best support would be a cleric to remove poison or burn that would shorten Slowking's longevity. You've got a handful of good options too (Audino, Meganium, heck, even Vileplume, who's not that terrible once TR is up).

[Furosuto]

NO OBJECTION!

I like waterwarriors layout for the team. Personally, I think that the spiker should be scolipede for a couple of reasons.

He is uber fast 112 base speed is unbelievable for such a fat centipede and he can set up both layers of spikes. Second. If worst comes to worst, then he can deal some damage with STAB megahorn and or earthquake/rock slide. Technically he's a hazard sweeper I guess.....

Swellow is a good option for a physical sweeper IMO. He isn't one who relies on having to set up with a move, and then lose it to a check, so he's good in my book.

That's all I can think of for the moment. But these two would make a nice offensive team, with a damaging hazards setter, and a physical sweeper that doesn't need to set up.

EDIT: yes, I know that roselia can set up both layers of spikes too, but scolipede can kill stuff if things go badly. Even without a SD, he can sweep teams that are unprepared.

[Zebraiken*]

Clearly the primary factor in this team should be the hazards setter, and I think it's important that we pick it first. Spinblocking is kind of a hard decision because while most of the spinners in NU are pretty ass, most can at the very worst guarantee one spin. Eviolite Misdreavus would definitely be the best spinblocker available as I'm pretty sure Haunter is at the very best 2hko'd by like Torkoal's Lava Plume, lol. Having a spinner on our team is also debatable but I think it's more likely to be a deadweight than to be particularly helpful to the goal.

Beyond picking the hazard setter(s) and debating on having a spinblocker, we're more or less free to roam on how to approach the rest of the team. Literally everything appreciates Spikes to wear down counters and such, so the playstyle doesn't really limit our 'mon options and we can build a team that simply forces switches through Pokemon selection and pressure on the opponent. This leaves potentially 3-4 spots for us to select synergetic mons with Slowking.

While I'd bet everyone favors Scolipede (and Roselia, to a lesser extent), I'd really like to advocate hazards Smeargle for our team. I'll admit that Scolipede/Roselia have some natural advantages (speed/Megahorn, Eviolite/Natural Cure) Smeargle has the most. Looking at the set:


Smeargle @ Focus Sash
252 HP / 252 Spe, Jolly
- Spikes
- Spore
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind

Toxic Spikes imo aren't necessary because of the surprising amount of Pokemon that are immune, pick them up, or just don't care either way. Toxic Spikes are the least useful hazard in NU, imo. Smeargle can incapacite a Pokemon (sometimes the opposing Rapid Spinner if they're silly) with Spore and then proceed to set up multiple layers of hazards. More often than not, Smeargle can get up 2+ layers while also effectively putting the other team down 6-5 because of the new sleep mechanics. Whirlwind is the only oddball move on here and I only added it after things like SD Absol and SubCM Mesprit tried to set up on me after I used Spore. It racks up entry hazard damage, discourages people from setting up on Smeargle, and easily hands you the momentum from the very start of the match.

Of course, faster Taunt users handle this set easy, and status absorbers like Swellow can prevent you from getting multiple layers as well. However, I still feel like Smeargle is by far the best hazard layer in the metagame and should definitely be considered for the spot.

[Furosuto]

Another thing you might want to also remember is that BP'ers like volbeat and ninjask can just set up on you with sub, which could be a problem if they BP to something that can sweep half of the team...... And yeah, it is pretty bad taunt bait, which is why I mentioned scolipede. He's faster than most of the NU metagame, allowing him to outspeed taunt and get at least one layer up. Or he could bluff and go straight to attacking. :D

Still, not a bad set Zebraiken. Definitely a contender with the other two hazard setters.

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat Master Win

Another thing you might want to also remember is that BP'ers like volbeat and ninjask can just set up on you with sub, which could be a problem if they BP to something that can sweep half of the team...... And yeah, it is pretty bad taunt bait, which is why I mentioned scolipede. He's faster than most of the NU metagame, allowing him to outspeed taunt and get at least one layer up. Or he could bluff and go straight to attacking. :D

Still, not a bad set Zebraiken. Definitely a contender with the other two hazard setters.

If they don't have Encore, you can simply set up hazards and then phaze them when they use Tail Glow/SD. Honestly I'd rather WW first when facing a lead Volbeat because Encore is very probable; whereas against lead Ninjask just start setting up hazards, lol. They'll go for broke with Sub/SD and then cry when you Whirlwind it all away.

And it's not like Taunt leads are particularly common in NU. I've seen Taunt Persian and Taunt Prankster Murkrow, and that'd be it. Someone was also running a Magic Coat Kecleon which was obnoxious but also stopped Smeargle.

[tennisace]

I object to a few things:

I first object to the Spinner/Spinblocker slots as they are. I suggest that we change them both to "offensive mons". This is just so that we don't pigeonhole ourselves into pre-defined roles (I can count on my fingers how many offensive spinners there are, and it only takes two fingers). I also don't think we need a spinner at all really so yeah.

I also object to that Smeargle's moveset, we can give Stealth Rock to something else on the team (I can think of like three mons that work really well with our concept that commonly carry SR). I'd rather give Smeargle something cool in that last slot, heck maybe even put Rapid Spin or Magic Coat there. I've played against Smeargle a lot, and it really doesn't have much staying power as I'm sure you're well aware. I'd much rather not rely on one mon to set up all the hazards on a hazards team, since if it goes down, you have no hazards to soften the opposing team.

And finally as much as I'd rather have Scolipede by a mile: Smeargle gets shit done. It's a solid set. Just don't put SR on it...

[Furosuto]

Originally Posted by Fat Zebraiken

If they don't have Encore, you can simply set up hazards and then phaze them when they use Tail Glow/SD. Honestly I'd rather WW first when facing a lead Volbeat because Encore is very probable; whereas against lead Ninjask just start setting up hazards, lol. They'll go for broke with Sub/SD and then cry when you Whirlwind it all away.

And it's not like Taunt leads are particularly common in NU. I've seen Taunt Persian and Taunt Prankster Murkrow, and that'd be it. Someone was also running a Magic Coat Kecleon which was obnoxious but also stopped Smeargle.

But wouldn't sub protect them from the whirlwind? Then since smeargle has no hitting moves, it could set up and then BP to a sweeper of choice.

[Axa]

Whirlwind isn't blocked by Sub.

[waterwarrior]

Sorry for the delay, but we will now begin the vote on our main hazard setter. There are of course the main spikers (I'll try not being biased):

Scolipede
Pros:
-incredibly fast
-the closest thing to a dedicated lead NU has
-very respectable 90 base Attack with Megahorn
Cons:
-very frail
-is usually sacked after it gets a layer or two, unlike Roselia with her durability
-Megahorn has 85% accuracy, and it really can not afford the miss

Roselia
Pros:
-a very nice wall with Eviolite
-has reliable recovery in Synthesis or Rest + Natural Cure
-can support the team with moves like Aromatherapy
-a very underrated 100 base Sp. Atk
Cons:
-has only a meager base 65 Speed
-not as good a dedicated lead as Scolipede
-is practically set-up fodder for things like SubCM Mesprit


as well as some more unorthodox hazard setters such as:
Smeargle (see Zebraiken's post)
Cacturne (see tennisace's post)
Garbador
Gigalith
Glalie


My vote goes out to Roselia. Her durability and ability to be a wall, as well as being able to Leech Seed and actually deal damage with Giga Drain (it does more than you'd think) makes her an amazing Spiker, and she can come back later in the game to absorb TSpikes if the opponent sets them up.

Voting will end Tuesday, December 6 at 10:00 PM EST.

[Furosuto]

I'm gonna have to give my vote to scolipede.

I've used both spikers in NU, and while both of them are good, I find scolipede to be quite extraordinary. Not only can he set up spikes, but if he is backed up in a corner, he can sweep too. He could very well pull a lot of weight for the team.

[Lady Shinki]

I support Roselia, as its defensive synergy with Slowking is a lot better and would fit the bulkier feel of the team a lot better. I think we could get away with running a set with Spikes / Giga Drain / Rest / Rain Dance, as it can simultaneously cover its Fire weakness, boost Slowking's stab Surf, and act as a one-time weather changer against hail (it can survive any non-boosted Blizzard and change the weather, and snover is easy to lure and kill off).

[Axa]

I'm gonna go with Cacturne.

Aside from handling opposing Slowking fairly nicely, he also has STAB Sucker Punch off base 125 Atk. Taunt gives him a slight edge over Roselia and an immunity to Psychic is always helpful.

My main concern is that whomever we choose will likely have a problem with lead Jynx. That would almost merit considering Gigalith, who has Sturdy, good defenses, abuses Slowking's TR well and tackles several threats like Swellow well. SR wouldn't be too difficult to slot onto another mon, however.

[tennisace]

I changed my mind from my previous post. I'd really like to try Cacturne. Here's the set I was thinking of:

Cacturne @ Leftovers
Adamant
Water Absorb
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def (evs subject to change later since TR is kinda tricky to EV for sometimes, you want to outspeed some things outside of TR and others inside).

-Spikes
-Seed Bomb
-Sucker Punch
-Substitute

Dream World Cacturne is immune to both of Slowking's STABs, and resists Lanturn's Thunderbolts which is a Perk. This also easily takes care of silly Quagsire and Exeggutor and the like. So yeah it checks a great amount of Pokemon that give Slowking trouble, and is slow for Trick Room (not necessary, but always nice).

edit: rain dance roselia? really? it has 4mss enough as it is...

[Lady Salamence]

Originally Posted by Fat Lady Salamence

What my buddy tennis said

[Oh My Biscuits]

I agree, Cacturne truly is amazing. Immunity to two common types in this metagame, 80 BP Priority STAB coming off of 115 base attack, and the ability to set up Spikes is great. A few downfalls are its low speed and defensive stats, its susceptibility to a fast Taunt, and its weakness to the common Fighting- and Flying- type moves. With Slowbro being resistant to Fighting-type moves, I think they'd be a great pair.

[Zebraiken*]

Even though Cacturne is going to win now probably, I'm gonna avoid jumping on the tennistrain and stay with Smeargle.

[mostwanted]

Cacturne

[The Reptile]

Cacturne