Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[soul_survivor]

Im kinda torn on where I stand on deoxys. Idk, but without excadrill Deoxys, and the hyper offense crew has just become too just ugh.


I say this because well I have a friend with 0 EXPERIENCE in OU. I decided to give him a easy to use team consisting of dualscreen deoxys, DD dragonite, substitutelandourous, scarf jirachi, and two other standard crap. In just 1 day of play using dualscreen, and then setting up he got to 1300+ easily. When a player that barely knows what to do can get to 1300 with minimal thinking theres a problem.

Though I don't want him banned because I believe we've already banned alot. Its not easy for me to say ban something, but deoxys just needs to go so people can actually use strategy, and not just screen up, and sweep, or stealthrocks up, spikes up time to sweep.

[kd24]

i find deoxys-s ridiculously broken, especially now that the tier's best spinner / fastest pokemon is gone, as well as the tiers best taunter (im not saying these werent nessecary (well at least excas was :P) but they certainly give deoxys-s a ton of more leeway into what it does overall)

lets throw out the arguments of versatility and diversity - deoxys-s is basically only running 2-3 dif sets - an the lo sweeper isn't exactly what it was back in basic d/p - its got plenty of solid counters and answers

no, its the entry hazard set (and particularly dual screen) that makes me shit my pants when i see a deoxys-s in team preview

- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Taunt
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Taunt

Pick whatever you want in those final 2 moves

this thing is so incredibly dangerous that it basically forces you into a terrible position - is it any surprise that the only ways to even really break this thing are exactly what it wants to come in - tyranitar, brick break scizor????, specs politoed ... these are exactly the kind of set up opportunities scrafty, gorebyss, dragonite, etc are looking for. and let me tell you right now, even if all things go to hell for the deoxys-s user, they still will either have screens up or some entry hazards up - and thats basically their worst case scenario!

this isnt even a question to me, theres nothing that stops what deoxys-s is trying to do - you can bring these ridiculous counter pokemon like chople ttar (not that it needs chople, the ideal deoxys-s isnt even running an attack) or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, deoxys-s makes you play into its hand and its more than willing to switch out and let one of its dangerous teammates completely sweep your team.

[YAYtears]

I think that now that exca is gone, deo-s should be banned. First of all, it can set hazards on almost any pokemon with it's bulk and speed and if your opponent has SR and a layer of spikes, and if the user plays well, you will be at a huge disadvantage. Also, there's little you can do stop it from setting hazards. Forretress fears fire punch, Tyranitar fears superpower, and tentacruel fears psycho boost. The thing is, you just know what to send in front of it, even if you know it's leading. The only exceptions to this are starmie and xatu I guess. On the PO server, once excadrill was temp banned, therefore having the same ban lists, I saw an absurd amount of Deo S

[Katakiri]

I believe Deoxys-S should be Uber but it really is a tough call. It's one of those Pokemon that really has no true counters, but it's entirely dependent on what sort of team Deoxys-S is on and what it's trying to do.

That's what makes it a tough call; Deoxys-S has an option to "win" in any given situation that anyone could throw at it. Can't set up against Deoxys-S because it will just Taunt. Priority Taunt? Deoxys-S used Magic Coat. Espeon? Deoxys-S just sets up Screens. Scizor? Deoxys-S used HP Fire. Of course it has too many option to fit on one set so it will be able to be beaten but Deoxys-S' job only takes 2 turns and it's not at all hampered by Type Weakness as it's a support Pokemon. There's literally no way to scout what set it's running since it does it's job so quickly, therefore the only way to counter Deoxys-S is to guess.

However LO Deoxys-S is one of the best revenge Pokemon in the metagame, easily taking down all the Dancing Dragons everyone whines about these days. While that's really awesome, it is a little suspect. It's coverage is just far too good & it's ability to go mixed so easily makes Tyranitar and other Dark-types not even able to Pursuit it.


While we don't use this system any more, I still believe that nearly everything in this holds mostly true and should still be taken into account when labeling a Pokemon as Uber:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43566

Specifically highlighting this last bit which applies to Deoxys-S and I believe it to still hold very much true even over 3 years later:

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

After refreshing, I see that someone else quoted that as well, but I'll add a bit more to it. Deoxys-S requires no support to set-up as a lead & requires no set-up to sweep if it chooses to run Life Orb. It's by no means taking down entire teams but if it's teammates take down priority users and Steel-types, it's sweeping with no problem and can even switch-out & come back in any time it want since it doesn't need to set up meaning it makes no commitment to stay in.

The only Scarf Pokemon that can touch it are Base 104 & higher which is Zoroark & Mienshao's tier. That kind of creates an Excadrill situation once again except Deoxys-S can go mixed, to break it's counters. But once again, it's the unpredictability combined with the speed of Deoxys-S that makes it Uber, not just the speed alone.

[verbatim]

I'm going to argue against the unpredictability logic. Yes it can run a variety of sets, but the punishment for guessing wrong is no where near as severe as it was with Salamence in the fourth generation. Having your opponent get two layers of hazards up is big, but is the sacrifice of a pokemon to do it justifiable? Furthermore, is the sacrifice so good as to consider a ban?

[Glen]

not putting this in hide tags in the hopes that more people will read it

Originally Posted by Fat DetroitLolcat

Dammit, we want to ban more shit that isn't even remotely broken?

1. Let's fix this by bringing Excadrill back down, please?4 OU votes, 1 Uber vote should not = Uber, especially when it has counters, checks, revenge killers, weather changers, etc. /rant

2. As bluemon pointed out, there are three sets that Deoxys-S uses, so I'll mention their synergy/unpredictability/versatility value and then tackle their individual sets.

Set 1 is Hazard Setter
Set 2 is Screen Setter
Set 3 is Life Orb Cleaner

Deoxys-S is versatile, but not unpredictable. Unlike former Suspects like Gen 4 Salamence, not knowing Deoxys-S's set does not give the opponent the advantage. If the opponent leads with Deoxys, it's probably either Set 1 or Set 2, if not, it might be Set 3. Deoxys-S has such shitty attacking stats that mispredicting the set doesn't mave many negative ramifications. If you leave your Pokemon in expecting a Screen and take a laughably weak Ice Beam, you're not screwed. You simply go to something that beats Deoxys-S and kill it. For that reason, you can assume that Deoxys-S is one of the two support variants, even if it's not.

Now let's look at the individual sets:

1. Hazard Setter:

This set is not nearly broken, as 1: you're only guaranteed one layer of hazards and 2: Spinning is so fucking easy in OU it's not even funny. Many people think Deoxys-S=2 layers of hazards. That is blatantly false. Try running a Tyranitar with Chople Berry. Unless you usually run Choice Tar, Tyranitar doesn't need its leftovers that badly. ChopleTar restricts Deoxys to one layer of hazards. But wait, what if you're not running Sand or think that changing one item on one Pokemon makes Deoxys-S too "overcentralizing"? Well don't worry, you can still hold it to one layer! Just lead with a setup sweeper and force a mindgame! Deoxys-S always runs Taunt because it's such a good move on Deo-S, so why not use that to your advantage? Lead with your Volcarona and force it to Taunt, then rape its face with a Bug Buzz! Lead with your Terrakion and Stone its Edge! Lead with your Scarf Landorus and U-Turn to your priority abuser! Lead with your damn Starmie and just spam Rapid Spin! What the fuck sets up on a Starmie?

"But Lolcat, what if I don't have any priority Pokemon, Starmies, or U-Turners?"

Then go to PokeBattleCenter Make some adjustments! Most teams can hold Deo-S to one layer if they try.

2. The Screen Setter:

Okay, this set and the hazard setter are so damn similar you can do the same thing. The only difference is that this set is better. It's because of this set that Hyper Offense is everywhere, as it's so easy to get up Screens. However, that doesn't mean that Deoxys-S is broken! First, apply pressure when needed. Lead with your CBNite. Don't have a CBNite? Bullshit, every team has a CBNite and it's why I'm not sitting at 1600 with my SmashPass team. No, but seriously, the best way to beat Hyper Offense is to capture the offensive momentum before the Offense player can do it. Hyper Offense teams hate mindgames, especially when you have the inherent advantage.

Force Deoxys to Taunt you, therefore holding him to one screen. If he lets you set up, then you have a Pokemon in the middle of setting up and he doesn't. If he Taunts and you attack (which you should do), he's only getting one Screen. If Deoxys has Light Clay, then he could get nothing at all. If you don't KO it or he gets his Screens, you should have a Pokemon halfway set up and Taunt will probably wear off. Setup Pokemon are so damn bulky in Gen 5 that they're not getting OHKO'd.

3. The Incredibly Overrated Completely Shitty Pretty Bad Cleaner Suicide Orb Deoxys:

Attack it. It can't OHKO shit, has an uninvested Base 50 HP as its bulk, and hits like a ping pong ball covered in piss. It might actually kill something but that's probably because of a Critical Psycho Boost so you can set up all over its bitch ass.

Oh and use Trick Room Reuniclus it shits all over Hyper Offense.

Also, use Starmie because it shits on like every Ghost in OU. Forretress can set up on all the Ghosts but can't Spin, and Donphan is pretty cool too.

Deoxys-s: About as broken as Excadrill. Also, we should bring back the not-remotely-broken Excadrill.
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Yep, Deoxys-S's most broken set is Spikes/SR/Taunt/Reflect/Light Screen/Superpower/HP Fire/Ice Beam/Thunder/Magic Coat @ Focus Sash and Light Clay and Life Orb with 252 Atk, SpA, Spe, and HP EVs.
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Okay, people are talking about the metagame becoming "stale", "stagnant", "Boring", etc. I implore you to actually think and answer this question: how will removing Deoxys from the meta fix that??? Look, the more we play the game the more stale it gets. Okay? Eventually, no matter how "balanced" the meta is, we'll eventually find some dominant playstyles and the metagame will centralize around them. That's how games work. You play game, you learn strategy, eventually you find out what works. It doesn't mean something's broken. It means the metagame has developed to a point where Hyper Offense is the best strategy.

Tiering is pretty easy. You don't have to look at "centralization", "metagame health", "gayness (what an eloquent term)" or any "characteristics of a desirable metagame". You look at one thing: is the pokemon "far too powerful to exist in a balanced metagame". That's what Smogon's Philosophy says. I quote that line in like every tiering post I make because it's simple, not confusing, and pretty easy to determine. Let's look at the first word of that quote:

"far"

We're not determining if a Pokemon is broken. We have to prove that something is really, really broken for it to be banned. Do you know why Suspect Testing ultimately failed? Because people came into the test expecting to ban stuff. They also had no idea what constituted brokenness. Making the metagame slow, gay, stale, etc. should have no effect on anything's placement.

Everyone thinks BW OU is a shitty tier. Do you know why people think it's a shitty tier? Because it is. Is banning one Pokemon going to do anything about that? Probably not.

If you lean towards Uber because you think Deoxys-S is gay, makes the metagame stale, or makes the metagame boring even though it's not broken, you really are leaning towards OU and don't know it.

this is the single greatest post i have ever read.

i have said it in the past and i will reiterate: banning in the interest of convenience/'fun' is the opposite of a competitive decision. it is completely backwards that a site whose raison d'etre is competitive battling is more interested in pleasing the largest number of users than in attempting to find the most competitive metagame (note how i didnt say balanced).

[Danger Mouse]

This is a tough one.

Obviously, Deoxys-S is very good at what it does. As many people here have pointed out, it's not at all easy to prevent it from doing its job. It can even team up with Espeon to block Taunts. It's a fantastic support poke, one of the best, and its Life Orb set is a fantastic revenge killer, picking off stuff like Cloyster, Dragonite, and Mence even if they've gotten a boost in.

In fact, I'd go so far to say that no pokemon in OU right now performs its designated role as well as Deoxys-S.

However, does it break the metagame? I don't really think it does. Honestly, I think Magic Bounce Espeon is more broken than Deoxys. The only thing I think Deoxys can do that really is broken is teaming up with Espeon for a smash passing team. That crap right there is totally broken. Banning Deoxys won't solve that, though.

[Faladran]

I feel that the most recent bans have left OU in an awkward transitionary phase. Excadrill was the only viable spinner that could handle Deoxys-S; the former's absence creates an unhealthy emphasis on hyper offensive hazard-stacking. Deoxys-S can consistently set up Stealth Rock and one or two layers of Spikes, as well as net unexpected KOs on opposing team members. Its versatility is incredible, to say the least. The best option for dealing with one variant may end up being a terrible decision if it happens to be running a different set. The problem is that there is no way to determine the Deoxys-S set in question, and one or two free turns are more than enough for it to wreak havoc.

Hyper offense teams based around Deoxys-S introduce an unhealthy amount of pressure into the metagame. Switch teams are too easy to win with; the simple combo of Volt Switch + U-turn + hazards requires little to no effort to use, but can beat the vast majority of teams. Dual Screens Deoxys-S makes setup sweepers extremely difficult to handle. BW introduced a gigantic power creep to the game with sweepers like Volcarona, Haxorus and Shell Smash users. Covering these threats individually is possible, but doing so when they are placed on the same team with screen support is unreasonable.

In conclusion, I feel Deoxys-S is Uber based on its support capabilities.

[Chimpakt]

Deoxys-S is too versatile for it to be allowed in OU. It has a very diverse movepool that allows the user to lull the opponent in a false sense of security. It becomes a guessing game and if you guess wrong, you lose enough momentum to where it will cost you the game. Deoxys could be running thunderbolt for a starmie trying to spin away the hazards or xatu trying to prevent hazards, super power for tyranitar etc.

Although it does suffer from the 4 moveslot syndrome, if you get enough momentum, that does not matter. Deoxys provides the user with hazards and control of the game. When the player going against deoxys figures out the full moveset, they might not be able to stop the rest of their team from plowing through.

[Katakiri]

Originally Posted by Fat verbatim

I'm going to argue against the unpredictability logic. Yes it can run a variety of sets, but the punishment for guessing wrong is no where near as severe as it was with Salamence in the fourth generation. Having your opponent get two layers of hazards up is big, but is the sacrifice of a pokemon to do it justifiable? Furthermore, is the sacrifice so good as to consider a ban?

Again, it's not just the unpredictability; it's the combination of the unpredictability and that ludicrous Speed. If you want to bring up 4th Gen, Deoxys-S was OU in 4th Gen for a while but got banned for the exact same reasons we're debating here today.

[Arcticblast]

I hate Deo-S and think it is broken to hell and back (okay, it just shits on my team, it probably isn't broken), but I DO NOT WANT TO BAN IT. We've just gotten too ban-happy recently.

[WinstonShnozwick]

Personally, I'd enjoy keeping Deo-S in Overused because it's very useful for HO, and I enjoy abusing it to get easy wins.

Sarcasm aside, I would like deox out of OU because of
-It will always get hazards up
-It will always get screens up (for some HO sweeping)
-You don't think it poses an offensive threat and then you lose a pokemon or two from its LO set.

With excadrill gone, deox is the fastest pokemon in the game of its own devices. When you see one, you know that you can't stop it from doing something to you one way or another before you kill it.

[Iceblade157]

Dual Screen variants are, in my opinion, the only problematic ones thanks to many excellent set-up sweepers this gen. However, screens can be pretty easily stalled out, and set up sweepers don't particularly enjoy taking residual damage, or getting hammered with statuses. With Rain Stall becoming more common, and most politoed variants carrying Perish Song, it's not going to be a huge problem getting around the dual screens.

Edit: Forgot to add this:

50 Base HP isn't particularly magnificent for priority.

[MetaGross66]

It's not like it has affected the metagame to the point Espeon is in the top ten like what Thundurus did to Gastrodon. Deo-s is totally counterable. If you're still getting swept by Dual screen smash pass, like lolcat said, get a new team. -.-

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

I really don't think Deoxys should fall under the Offensive Characteristic.

Originally Posted by Fat Katakiri

It's by no means taking down entire teams but if it's teammates take down priority users and Steel-types, it's sweeping with no problem and can even switch-out & come back in any time it want since it doesn't need to set up meaning it makes no commitment to stay in.

The bolded part of your post is the same exact concept/support that every other sweeper needs to sweep, particularly Dragon type sweepers. I know Dragon-type sweepers need setup, but there are plenty of other sweepers that don't require setup.

Likewise, unpredictability isn't a reason to call for a ban either. If this were the case, Infernape would have been the prime subject of banning last generation and this generation. Others include Lucario and Salamence.

Deoxys-S' hazard setting set is what the typical suicide lead was last gen. It was exactly what Aerodactyl was last gen, guareented hazards. Unlike Aerodactyl, Deo-S has even easier and assured time of setting up hazards due to his ability to have offensive presence. He also has access to both Spikes and Stealth Rock, unlike Aero. The thing is these hazards are setup with Hyper-Offensive teams. To those saying Lol suicide lead you just have to spin away once keep in mind that your one spinning oppurtunity is incredibly hard to get due to the pressure of Hyper Offensive teams.

However, the main point of contention I have with Deoxys-S is the dual Screen set. As many of you have pointed out:

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

No doubt Deoxys does fall under this catagory with this set. Let's take a look at the two parts I bolded.

-consistent: Deoxys-S will almost assuredly get up both screens. His consistentsy is maintained due to having access to Taunt and having the fastest Speed in the game. This essentially creates a situation where you are almost untauntable unless facing a Magic bouncer or Prankster Taunter.

However Deoxys-S can setup screens in the face of a Magic Bouncer (hazards can't). Lastly, since Deoxys-S has the fastest base speed in the game, he will always get a screens up before you attack, since everything is slower. His offensive presence can allow it to beat the Prankster Taunts. He can never be OHKO'ed if he has a Focus Sash (alright sand/hail but then that's just TWO extra pokemon who could beat it)

Substantially Easier: Dualscreens has always been a popular strategy, but it was notable for being difficult to setup. Deoxys-S just takes the factor out the window with assured screens since he can consistently setup as I show above. The large amount of bulk added by the assured screens does make it substantially easy to acquire boosts. Really, just take note on how few Pokemon can take down a full-health Dragonite with screens up. It is a really small amount of pokes.

TL;DR Deoxys-S screen are almost 100% consistently and substantially easy to setup (unlike other dual screeners), and the sweeper that follows can consistently and easily acquire boosts to sweep your team and win the game.

Edit: Just look at the RMT section and half the teams are Deoxys-S with 5 sweepers.

[Smith]

yeah this guy is definitely on the fence for me. The issue is that even when you see him in team preview, it tells you NOTHING about how to stop him. I've used Forretress and Tyranitar to stop him, only to see he has Superpower and Hp Fire as his two coverage moves. If something like Aerodactyl had spikes, at least I'd know what it was running. Additionally its screens set is pretty dangerous (albeit predictable) and as a life orb cleaner, it really isn't terrible (it's pretty damn dangerous actually). If nothing else it's just annoying to see MostWanted's team basically copy and pasted EVERYWHERE on the ladder, with a few variations. If a pokemon like Xatu is viable, we have problems. On the other hand, he doesn't really strike me as "broken" in the classical sense. He hardly "breaks" the metagame, but he is just really fucking annoying. In my opinion, he has Support Clause written all over him, and I'd probably vote him uber, but not without thinking really damn hard about it.

[iSkittles]

Originally Posted by Fat soul_survivor

Im kinda torn on where I stand on deoxys. Idk, but without excadrill Deoxys, and the hyper offense crew has just become too just ugh.


I say this because well I have a friend with 0 EXPERIENCE in OU. I decided to give him a easy to use team consisting of dualscreen deoxys, DD dragonite, substitutelandourous, scarf jirachi, and two other standard crap. In just 1 day of play using dualscreen, and then setting up he got to 1300+ easily. When a player that barely knows what to do can get to 1300 with minimal thinking theres a problem.

Though I don't want him banned because I believe we've already banned alot. Its not easy for me to say ban something, but deoxys just needs to go so people can actually use strategy, and not just screen up, and sweep, or stealthrocks up, spikes up time to sweep.

If it's a viable strategy that works, then I don't see the problem.

[Treadshot A1]

Gonna have to agree with the Deo S is Uber sentiment.

White i agree that it has pokemon it can't get past, the problem is that each set has its own specific stops. You can force Deoxys S to only get one layer of hazards or one screen, by simply attacking it. Yes, you can stop HO by using TR Reuniclus. Yes, you can basically just spam attacks until the LO version is gone (mainly because of its absolutely laughable HP stat). Hell, Scrafty with Brick Break (lol) can beat the screens version if it lacks attacks. Stopping this thing is easy for each of its sets.

The problem is that I can't pack TR Reuniclus, CBNite, Scrafty, etc. all onto one team without my team ending up as a dedicated Deo-S stop, and nothing else. And even if I could, what's the point? I cant possibly know which set its running, and there in lies the problem. For most pokemon in competitive battling, there's one or two sets that are almost always being used, and counters often overlap (my Choice Band and Life Orb Infernape's are both taken down by anything packing Psychic moves or Flying moves, while regardless if I'm using Pain Split Rotom or Trick Scarf Rotom a powerful grass move will knock both out). That makes it practical to stop, as counters are not only relatively common and not specific, but also able to counter one set and probably also check another. With Deo S, that's not the case. I can counter one set with a CBNite, but what if it's not that set? Then I get screwed, as I end up pounding head first into screens for little damage. Sure, I can lead with a Starmie to spin at the first chance, but if it's screens? Sure, I can lead with a Priority Taunt, but then Deo-S is liable to switch to something else, and then we're back to where we started as next it comes in I still don't know what set it's running (none of the sets like being Taunted, so that's no clue). I can lead with my SD Scizor, who can either force a mind game, or be killed by HP Fire, or be Taunted. Either way, that Deo-S is getting at least one screen or one layer of hazards up (to say guaranteed two layers is ridiculous, I agree), and not even Gen IV Azelf (arguably one of the best suicide leads back then) could brag a guaranteed layer of hazards. Plus, Azelf was obvious, it's got one stadard lead set, and one berry-resist set, which is basically the first set with a berry. It's predictable. Deo S isn't whatever I use to counte it's set, chances are its not running that set (I count Screens, Hazards, LO and Taunt/HP Fire as at least four different sets, capable of four different things, so you have about a quarter chance of guessing right), or it's running some other variant set, given its great move pool. Hell, it could pack Taunt and Hazards with no screens and be a reliable hazard setter for a Stall team if it really wanted. Yes, team preview helps, if I see a Blissey I know it's not HO. But that still doesn't tell me if it wants hazards (which is what I'd guess), or screens for more Defense (unlikely, but I wouldnt write it off), or if it's actually a fast Taunter who's job is to stop some Set Up Sweeper, or if it's a revenge killer.

I certainly think Deo S should be banned. It has way too many options, and you don't have time to divine its set before its already done its job. It's often a lead, which means your only clue is team preview, and that's not enough to be able to accurately guess which set. Given that each set has different checks and counters, and that even those counters are only able to limit it to one layer of hazards or one screen, it's just too effective.

[Honus]

I'll have to agree Delta 2777 that Deoxys-S is by far the worst suspect left.

Deoxys-S is such a potent threat in the current metagame, because it causes you to fight an uphill battle for the majority of the match, and it does this in a number of ways, the first of which is with entry hazards. While there are other "fast spikers", Deoxys-S is the bulkiest, the only one with Stealth Rock and the most threatening to spinners. Deoxys's bulk is actually quite underrated, as shown by this set and the fact that it's able to manage getting up entry hazards on Pokemon that "hard counter its offensive sets", such as Specially Defensive Jirachi, which is only doing 30.92% - 36.84% with Iron Head and 22.04% - 25.99% with Body Slam, to the standard 252 HP/252 Spe Support set.

Deoxys-S is not only a great layer of hazards because of its amazing speed tier, but the fact that it has the potential to be threatening to any spinner. It might seem like a good idea to send in your Forretress to Spin away its hazards before taking it down with Gyro Ball, but if you're aware of the many possible attacks this Pokemon can carry, then you're obviously going to hesitate. What if it has Hidden Power Fire/Fire Punch? Then you're Forretress loses a huge chunk of its health, and your best means of beating the Haxorus on your opponent's team is now null and void, the same scenario goes for Tentacruel and Deoxys-S's Psycho Boost, as well as Starmie fearing Thunderbolt. This is purely theoretical, of course, but it's actually a somewhat common scenario, regardless of which Rapid Spinner you have and which threat it counters. Deoxys-S has established itself as a viable user of such a vast array of attacks, that Rapid Spinners feel threatened just switching in, and, through its imposing presence and high Speed, Deoxys-S is able to get Entry Hazards up with ease, making it very hard for a more defensive team to constantly take the brutal attacks of the opponent's remaining sweepers until they can find a time in which their Rapid Spinner can absolve the field of Entry Hazards. The worst part is that there is absolutely no way to tell what Deoxys-S has, other than playing into its hand by trying to scout it while it sets up Hazards/Screens on you and I think Faladran's replay shows this better than words could, so if you send in your Tentacruel, you're essentially taking a stab in the dark; any Pokemon that forces you to do this in order to 'shut them down' is unhealthy for the metagame.

Next up, we have the Screens set, much like the Entry Hazards set, Deoxys-S can get this up relatively easily and while Screens have always been a somewhat large part of the competitive metagame, Deoxys-S isn't set up bait like other Screen Users such as Bronzong, Cresselia, etc and can't be Taunted like the aforementioned Pokemon, unless you're using something like Whimsicott.

The Offensive LO sets are only useful for beating primarily offensive teams, and even then, its attacks aren't that strong and many Pokemon can shake them off, kd24 is spot on in saying that the support sets are the most threatening because they put you at an immediate disadvantage and stopping them from doing their job is no easy task.

I''m going to echo the definition of an Uber Support Pokemon from Katakiri's post, because I believe it characterizes Deoxys-S perfectly and illustrates why it is detrimental to the current metagame.

Support Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

This sounds quite familiar. Deoxys-S's niche is consistently setting up situations that facilitate sweeping, as illustrated by both of its support sets. You can't deny that Pokemon like Choice Band Haxorus love the 37.5% of residual that the Ferrothorn that was supposed to counter it, just took from the 4 layers of hazards that Deoxys-S set up at the beginning of the battle. To reiterate, Deoxys-S can do this consistently because it has the ability to pose a threat to the majority of the spinners in the OU Metagame and the fact that it's Screens can't be taunted away, and Brick Break is hardly used for the purpose of smashing screens [not to mention many of the common users of Brick Break such as Scizor are beaten by Deoxys-S if they happen to carry the appropriate attack, in this case it being Fire Punch/Hidden Power Fire].

Finally, while one can argue that Deoxys-S has moveslot syndrome, you can't mess around and scout for its moveset, because it could be setting Spikes all over your field while you do so, unlike the Hidden Power Fire Rotom-W whose waters you can test by sending in a Ferrothorn and then quickly switching it out for something like Latios, because in the process, you aren't put at any kind of disadvantage.

In conclusion, I think Deoxys-S's sheer versatility, threatening presence and unmatched ability to facilitate the sweeping of its team members add up to it a Pokemon that is effectively worthy of a ban from the OU Tier.

[jonathanrp]

Deoxys-S should be uber in my opinion. The unpredictability of each of its sets forces you to guess as to what it can do.
Deoxys-S has the ability to practically guarantee the setup of entry hazards. The only way to stop them from being set up is to carry a surprise Magic Coat Pokemon as your "lead". It can also form a fairly problematic combo with Multiscale Dragonite, Setting up Dual Screens without any issue, as it is the fastest unscarved Pokemon in the metagame. Not just Dragonite benefits from this. Shell Smash Gorebyss can practically rip through anything without a problem.

The thing about dual screens that makes Deoxys-S broken is the sheer speed it has combined with it's decent bulk. While many screening Pokemon (espeon, ect) are incredibly frail, easily taken out, Deoxys-S isn't quite as frail, allowing it to easily set up.

tl;dr, I think it should be uber.

edit, just saw the above post, it fits the uber characteristic of a support pokemon. so yeah.

[lmitchell0012]

Originally Posted by Fat jonathanrp

Deoxys-S should be uber in my opinion. The unpredictability of each of its sets forces you to guess as to what it can do.
Deoxys-S has the ability to practically guarantee the setup of entry hazards. The only way to stop them from being set up is to carry a surprise Magic Coat Pokemon as your "lead". It can also form a fairly problematic combo with Multiscale Dragonite, Setting up Dual Screens without any issue, as it is the fastest unscarved Pokemon in the metagame. Not just Dragonite benefits from this. Shell Smash Gorebyss can practically rip through anything without a problem.

The thing about dual screens that makes Deoxys-S broken is the sheer speed it has combined with it's decent bulk. While many screening Pokemon (espeon, ect) are incredibly frail, easily taken out, Deoxys-S isn't quite as frail, allowing it to easily set up.

tl;dr, I think it should be uber.

edit, just saw the above post, it fits the uber characteristic of a support pokemon. so yeah.

Following that logic, mew should be uber as well. The fact is, neither of these pokemon (deoxys-s and mew) are uber because they both have counters. Bronzong can counter pretty much any set that deoxy's-s is running. None of his attacking moves do very much damage to him. If deoxys-s tries to taunt you, gyro ball will probably kill him. If he tries to set up on you, bronzong can either kill him with gyro ball (although I'm not sure if he'll still KO with reflect up) get rocks up, set up trick room, screens, etc.

[Smith]

Spinning is so fucking easy in OU it's not even funny.

I'm not sure where you've been but this is NOT the case. The following are the viable 5th gen OU spinners: Donphan, Excadrill (oh wait), Forretress, Hitmontop, Starmie and Tentacruel. What do they all have in common? Jellicent can literally switch into any of these (except Excadrill obviously), and Gengar can switch into any of these save Starmie or Tentacruel. There is a REASON Gengar has climbed the usage stats like a mother fucker when Excadrill was banned, it's that it is now very easy to spin block with the best spinner in history gone.

[fidgety]

Deoxys-S's Offensive Sets are ok but nothing exceptional if not for it's speed so those while good are hardly broken I think most if not all of us can more or less agree with that.

Deoxys-S's Suicide Lead and Suicide Dual Screens Sets on the other hand lets look at them individually.

Hazards:
Focus Sash
252 HP / 28 (Def/SDef) / 228 Spe
Jolly (+ Spe, - SAtk)/Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
Stealth Rock
Spikes
Taunt
Superpower/HP [Fire]

all but guarenteed Rocks and a Layer of Spikes against most leads, Taunt Prevents opposing Pokemon from setting up on it, Superpower is for Steels, Terrakion, and Tyranitar mainly, while HP Fire Trades Terrakion and Tyranitar for Forretress, Scizor, Bronzong, Jirachi, and the odd Metagross. the EVs are this way as to beat everything up to Scarf Landorus though Max+ is an option to tie with other Max+ Deoxys-S.

in Summary free hazards.

The Dual Screens set is much the same except Light Clay over Sash, Screens over the Hazards and Rock/Superpower in Place of Superpower/HP Fire

Free Screens to setup something Like Smash-Pass.

It's supporting Capacity breaks it. It's offenses are Solid but nothing on it's Supporting abilities.

[By Myself]

Doexys-s is reallly unpredictable and can cost you many pokes with its unpredictability. Also being as it's the fastest poke it can outspeed anything really giving it the advantage at all times. Really the most frustrating pokemon. Hyper offense is everywhere now basically giving it free screens or free two layer of hazards. Really quite annoying and op to an extent.

[c l e a r]

hmmm, based on my experiences in PO, I think Deoxys-S is predictable, but need the appropriate leads to be countered.

On one hand, with team preview, the hazard set is easy to deal with, priority have this set checked, as well as Sand Stream. Easy solution I seem to find is, U-Turn to T-tar, and you only have to deal with 1 layer of hazard, which is quite doable.

The Screener, however, is quite potent, with a full out offense, you will have to live with both screens. Not to mention that the protection the lord provides makes means one can Smash-herb-sweep without fail. The other side needs to now play defensively and lose a few guys (Protect Gliscor is a god send).

Also, defensive oriented tanks like Scrafty, in conjunction with the screens, can use Bulk Up/DDance to not be intimidated by the likes of attacks, it forces things to use Dragon Tail, which is quite predictable.

So yes, in some ways, Deo-S's support ability is unparallelled. If only we have some good Prankster Pokemon that can deploy Taunt easily, I can see this thing a check that all teams need. Facing a Smashed Sweep is quite terrifying.