Machoke (QC REJECTED)

November Blue · Dec 1st, 2011, 9:40:12 AM

[Overview]

Great bulk with Eviolite.
Unique No Guard + DynamicPunch combo gives it an uncontested niche.
Also has access to Ice Punch and RestTalk, quite useful for Gligar and other Flying-types, as well as all the status being flung around.
Base 100 attack is fairly good, but low by RU Fighting-type standards.
More potent defensive capabilities than Gurrdurr and possibly Hariyama, as it can recover and absorb status reliably, and free turns from confusion augment its longevity.

[SET]
name: RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: DynamicPunch
move 4: Ice Punch / Payback
item: Eviolite
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

Quite bulky, can fill a defensive role.
Not walled by Gligar, but is instead walled by Slowking, who resists DynaPunch, Ice Punch, and takes reduced damage from Payback due to lower speed.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

Alternate spread with more Special Defense (still runs max Attack)
Pairs well with Klinklang, Moxie SubRoost Honchkrow, and other sweepers that are checked by Steel-types.
Works great in defensive cores, even bulky offense ones. Covers Bug, Rock and Dark weaknesses really well. Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, Moltres, Scyther (and other flying Bugs), and Haunter, for example, appreciate Machoke.

[Other options]

None. Maybe a different secondary attack instead of Ice Punch or Payback, such as Rock Slide.

[Checks and Counters]

Flying- or Psychic-types such as Honchkrow, Kadabra, Moltres, and Exeggutor can outspeed and threaten with powerful attacks, but may not be able to achieve a KO, and are confused or KOed in return. Somewhat hard to counter reliably because of this factor.
Dunknoir and Cofarigus are immune to Machoke's best asset.
Taunters that can block RestTalk, hsve the bulk to take Punches, and can 2 or 3HKO Machoke, such as Gligar (bar Ice Punch) and Qwilfish.
Poison types; Qwilfish, Golbat, and Amoonguss.

athleteandy1 · Dec 1st, 2011, 5:52:53 PM

Interesting set name. Might want to shorten it to something like Rest Talk or Bulky Machoke or something along those lines.

Also, stating the obvious, but be sure to complete this.

November Blue · Dec 12th, 2011, 4:11:53 AM

Updated, hopefully ready for QC now.

I'd really like someone to weigh in on the other sets (Bulk Up and Choice Band). Machoke can't really abuse Bulk Up well due to the lack of Drain Punch, Guts, recovery, and Leftovers.

A Choice Band set might be viable, but is horribly outclassed.

Thoughts?

scienceguy · Dec 12th, 2011, 7:59:09 PM

You might want to mention guts+restTalk set in OO. I think that it would get the boost with sleep, right? Anyway, it'd be bulky and hit fairly hard while its sleeping anyway. the problem with the set though is that dynamic punch isn't a guaranteed hit, close combat is counter productive, so cross chop is the best option for stab. Whatever you think I guess.

November Blue · Dec 12th, 2011, 9:31:07 PM

Guts RestTalk is completely otuclassed by Hariyama. Cross Chop is horribly inaccurate for a main STAB too.

I'm not sure what QC's stance is on outclassed sets, but it might work. Even so, it's so inferior to No Guard DynaPunch that I'm not really sure it's worth using.

scienceguy · Dec 12th, 2011, 10:31:55 PM

I didn't even think of Hariyama's RestTalk set, you're right, Machoke does worse defensively (I did some calcs) and doesn't get leftovers recovery so yeah nevermind

Upstart · Dec 15th, 2011, 7:39:59 PM

what exactly does this have over gurdurr? I am honestly not sure if this set is any good. I ll give it a test. Also the counter section needs to be expanded to poison types as well.

Omicron · Dec 15th, 2011, 7:49:56 PM

To be honest, I think Machoke is infinitely outclassed by nearly all the other Fighting-types in the tier. No Guard DynamicPunch is literally its only niche, and not a very good one at that. I don't think it's deserving of an RU analysis, but we'll leave that to QC.

November Blue · Dec 16th, 2011, 12:18:36 AM

No Guard DynaPunch is a potent niche though. I often find that it allows Machkoe to extend 2HKOes to OHKOes, and tear offense to bits if I get lucky with confusion (which is, at 50-50, a pretty good chance). Machoke is really bulky, has reliable recovery with RestTalk, and is a great status absorber. He's mush better at it than Gurrdurr and Hariyama, as he doesn't need to be picky about which status he can take (Toxic, for example).

He's great on bulky offense teams that need Bug, Dark and Rock resistances, stuff like Moltres and Sharpedo have cool defensive synergy.

Ideally, I'd like to remove the Band and Bulk Up sets (even from OO) and have only the single set, as it's the only thing Machoke should be doing.

He needs RestTalk, otherwise Dusknoir and Cofagrigus wall him endlessly, and can burn him. A Guts set has no recovery without RestTalk, and no room for Bulk Up, which leaves it outclassed by Gurrdurr.

Machoke's draws are DynaPunch, the bulk, the instant recovery and status absorption, plus Ice Punch for Gligar (which separates it from Gurrdurr). This set is, in my opinion, both unique and useful enough to warrant an analysis.

EDIT: Right, Poison-types. Thanks Upstart. I've updated and bulked up the skeleton.

zdrup15 · Dec 21st, 2011, 11:08:12 AM

I'm sorry but I honestly don't think No Guard DynamicPunch is enough to warrant an analysis. Its Machoke's only advantage over every other Fighting-type, and if I wanted a RestTalk Fighting-type I'd rather pick one with phazing such as Throh and Poliwrath.

QC REJECTED 1/3

November Blue · Dec 21st, 2011, 11:31:41 AM

Understandable. Thanks Zdrup. How many does this need to be scrapped?

zdrup15 · Dec 21st, 2011, 11:36:04 AM

3 but I know other qc members are still thinking about this so you still have chances

Texas Cloverleaf · Dec 22nd, 2011, 9:20:13 AM

I'm agreeing with zdrup, there's next to no reason to use this over Gurdurr.

QC REJECTED 2/3

jc104 · Dec 22nd, 2011, 10:29:14 AM

Machoke has a UU analysis. For the sake of consistency that needs to be taken down if this is rejected (in fact, it probably needs to be taken down anyway). Seems really odd though.

Honko · Dec 22nd, 2011, 11:16:58 AM

Being rejected in RU doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't have a UU analysis; Lapras, Klinklang, and Carracosta all have OU analyses even though they've been rejected for UU. Machoke probably should be removed, especially since Machamp is in UU, but that's something for the UU team to figure out.

And sorry NoBlue but I'm rejecting this as well. It's just too vulnerable to residual damage and doesn't have enough to offer over Poliwrath and Hariyama as a bulky Fighting-type.

QC REJECTED 3/3

November Blue · Dec 22nd, 2011, 6:35:30 PM

Okay, thanks for the quick replies guys.

Dec 1st, 2011, 9:40:12 AM	#1
November Blue Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,465	Machoke (QC REJECTED) [Overview] Great bulk with Eviolite. Unique No Guard + DynamicPunch combo gives it an uncontested niche. Also has access to Ice Punch and RestTalk, quite useful for Gligar and other Flying-types, as well as all the status being flung around. Base 100 attack is fairly good, but low by RU Fighting-type standards. More potent defensive capabilities than Gurrdurr and possibly Hariyama, as it can recover and absorb status reliably, and free turns from confusion augment its longevity. [SET] name: RestTalk move 1: Rest move 2: Sleep Talk move 3: DynamicPunch move 4: Ice Punch / Payback item: Eviolite ability: No Guard nature: Adamant evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD [SET COMMENTS] Quite bulky, can fill a defensive role. Not walled by Gligar, but is instead walled by Slowking, who resists DynaPunch, Ice Punch, and takes reduced damage from Payback due to lower speed. [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] Alternate spread with more Special Defense (still runs max Attack) Pairs well with Klinklang, Moxie SubRoost Honchkrow, and other sweepers that are checked by Steel-types. Works great in defensive cores, even bulky offense ones. Covers Bug, Rock and Dark weaknesses really well. Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, Moltres, Scyther (and other flying Bugs), and Haunter, for example, appreciate Machoke. [Other options] None. Maybe a different secondary attack instead of Ice Punch or Payback, such as Rock Slide. [Checks and Counters] Flying- or Psychic-types such as Honchkrow, Kadabra, Moltres, and Exeggutor can outspeed and threaten with powerful attacks, but may not be able to achieve a KO, and are confused or KOed in return. Somewhat hard to counter reliably because of this factor. Dunknoir and Cofarigus are immune to Machoke's best asset. Taunters that can block RestTalk, hsve the bulk to take Punches, and can 2 or 3HKO Machoke, such as Gligar (bar Ice Punch) and Qwilfish. Poison types; Qwilfish, Golbat, and Amoonguss. Last edited by November Blue; Dec 22nd, 2011 at 6:37:42 PM.

Dec 1st, 2011, 5:52:53 PM	#2
athleteandy1 Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 301	Interesting set name. Might want to shorten it to something like Rest Talk or Bulky Machoke or something along those lines. Also, stating the obvious, but be sure to complete this. __________________ Analyses I've written: (RU) Emboar Gurdurr Musharna Rotom-F Tauros Vanilluxe Shelgon (NU) Analyses I'm working on: (RU) Rampardos (QC 3/3) Ursaring (GP 1/2) (NU) Shedinja (QC 0/3) Electabuzz (QC 0/3) Kangaskhan

Dec 15th, 2011, 7:39:59 PM	#7
Upstart Copy Cat Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 414 ROAR!	what exactly does this have over gurdurr? I am honestly not sure if this set is any good. I ll give it a test. Also the counter section needs to be expanded to poison types as well. __________________ Check Out my RMT 4th Gen RMT: Sub For Your Life If the enemy thinks of the mountains, attack like the sea; and if he thinks of the sea, attack like the mountains. Member of the UU and RU QC team, VM me for a check

Dec 15th, 2011, 7:49:56 PM	#8
Omicron Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,041 Seattle, WA	To be honest, I think Machoke is infinitely outclassed by nearly all the other Fighting-types in the tier. No Guard DynamicPunch is literally its only niche, and not a very good one at that. I don't think it's deserving of an RU analysis, but we'll leave that to QC. __________________

Dec 22nd, 2011, 9:20:13 AM	#13
Texas Cloverleaf meh Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,354 Ottawa	I'm agreeing with zdrup, there's next to no reason to use this over Gurdurr. QC REJECTED 2/3 __________________ C&C/Smog work

Dec 12th, 2011, 4:11:53 AM	#3
November Blue Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,465	Updated, hopefully ready for QC now. I'd really like someone to weigh in on the other sets (Bulk Up and Choice Band). Machoke can't really abuse Bulk Up well due to the lack of Drain Punch, Guts, recovery, and Leftovers. A Choice Band set might be viable, but is horribly outclassed. Thoughts?

Dec 12th, 2011, 7:59:09 PM	#4
scienceguy Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 16	You might want to mention guts+restTalk set in OO. I think that it would get the boost with sleep, right? Anyway, it'd be bulky and hit fairly hard while its sleeping anyway. the problem with the set though is that dynamic punch isn't a guaranteed hit, close combat is counter productive, so cross chop is the best option for stab. Whatever you think I guess.

Dec 12th, 2011, 9:31:07 PM	#5
November Blue Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,465	Guts RestTalk is completely otuclassed by Hariyama. Cross Chop is horribly inaccurate for a main STAB too. I'm not sure what QC's stance is on outclassed sets, but it might work. Even so, it's so inferior to No Guard DynaPunch that I'm not really sure it's worth using.

Dec 12th, 2011, 10:31:55 PM	#6
scienceguy Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 16	I didn't even think of Hariyama's RestTalk set, you're right, Machoke does worse defensively (I did some calcs) and doesn't get leftovers recovery so yeah nevermind

Dec 16th, 2011, 12:18:36 AM	#9
November Blue Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,465	No Guard DynaPunch is a potent niche though. I often find that it allows Machkoe to extend 2HKOes to OHKOes, and tear offense to bits if I get lucky with confusion (which is, at 50-50, a pretty good chance). Machoke is really bulky, has reliable recovery with RestTalk, and is a great status absorber. He's mush better at it than Gurrdurr and Hariyama, as he doesn't need to be picky about which status he can take (Toxic, for example). He's great on bulky offense teams that need Bug, Dark and Rock resistances, stuff like Moltres and Sharpedo have cool defensive synergy. Ideally, I'd like to remove the Band and Bulk Up sets (even from OO) and have only the single set, as it's the only thing Machoke should be doing. He needs RestTalk, otherwise Dusknoir and Cofagrigus wall him endlessly, and can burn him. A Guts set has no recovery without RestTalk, and no room for Bulk Up, which leaves it outclassed by Gurrdurr. Machoke's draws are DynaPunch, the bulk, the instant recovery and status absorption, plus Ice Punch for Gligar (which separates it from Gurrdurr). This set is, in my opinion, both unique and useful enough to warrant an analysis. EDIT: Right, Poison-types. Thanks Upstart. I've updated and bulked up the skeleton.

Dec 21st, 2011, 11:08:12 AM	#10
zdrup15 Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,720	I'm sorry but I honestly don't think No Guard DynamicPunch is enough to warrant an analysis. Its Machoke's only advantage over every other Fighting-type, and if I wanted a RestTalk Fighting-type I'd rather pick one with phazing such as Throh and Poliwrath. QC REJECTED 1/3

Dec 21st, 2011, 11:31:41 AM	#11
November Blue Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,465	Understandable. Thanks Zdrup. How many does this need to be scrapped?

Dec 21st, 2011, 11:36:04 AM	#12
zdrup15 Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,720	3 but I know other qc members are still thinking about this so you still have chances

Dec 22nd, 2011, 11:16:58 AM	#15
Honko pronounced "Honko" Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,024	Being rejected in RU doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't have a UU analysis; Lapras, Klinklang, and Carracosta all have OU analyses even though they've been rejected for UU. Machoke probably should be removed, especially since Machamp is in UU, but that's something for the UU team to figure out. And sorry NoBlue but I'm rejecting this as well. It's just too vulnerable to residual damage and doesn't have enough to offer over Poliwrath and Hariyama as a bulky Fighting-type. QC REJECTED 3/3 __________________

Dec 22nd, 2011, 6:35:30 PM	#16
November Blue Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,465	Okay, thanks for the quick replies guys.