(Gen 3) Advanced Tiers Revisited revisited

***chaos***** · Jul 23rd, 2006, 12:44:04 AM

Ok, lets get this clear from the start. Don't go offtopic in this topic, I don't want your argument about ______________ because the last topic just went completely OT and out of control. I really don't think people understand what the tiers are especially since the last topic I posted was going every which way in confusion and there was even a post by "Snapple" about how there isn't any confusion about the tiers.

Quote:

[12:26AM] chaos: ok because people are still stuck on whether the tiers represent power or not
[12:26AM] chaos: and they think "ok i like venusaur; its a strong pokemon. it is now in the ou category because i think ou represents power"
[12:27AM] chaos: "wait doesnt ou represent power i think venusaur is strong. ou"
[12:27AM] chaos: and then everyone is like no the tiers represent usage no i think they represent power and then snapple comes in out of nowhere "nobody is confused with the tiers"
[12:27AM] chaos: Originally Posted by Fat Snapple
I really don't think anyone is confused by the tiers as they are.
[12:28AM] Jumpman16: yeah i read that
[12:28AM] Jumpman16: thanks forums poster Snapple
[12:28AM] chaos: locked topic
[12:28AM] chaos: posting new one

What the tiers are and how they are calculated

The tiers represent how much a Pokemon is used in the base metagame. The base metagame is the metagame with all the Pokemon currently in play. From the base metagame, we split it into OU/Standard and Uber, a faux tier used to ban Pokemon that unbalance the metagame in question. From now on we will use the term "ban tier" to describe these faux tiers.

We currently have:

Uber [faux tier, also used as a generic term to reference a metagame with all pokemon included]
OU

From here, we have too many Pokemon lumped in OU and only the best of the best seem to get use. We can split OU into UU, and add a ban tier of "BL" to UU to balance out the Pokemon.

We currently have:

Uber [faux tier, also used as a generic term to reference a metagame with all pokemon included]
OU
BL [faux tier]
UU

Now, only in Advance do we have enough Pokemon to split this further into NU. Because there is not a noticable amount of Pokemon being split, we do not have enough Pokemon to effectively create a faux tier.

We finally have:

Uber [faux tier, also used as a generic term to reference a metagame with all pokemon included]
OU
BL [faux tier]
UU
NU

Now listen up. The tiers don't represent just power, so stop trying to put Venusaur in OU. It isn't OU, nobody uses it in tournaments. Because it is not OU, it is automatically UU. Since it is considered too good for UU, we bump it up to the ban tier of BL.

Since I have made it clear that the tiers represent usage, lets go back to power. People want to know which Pokemon are good. Now lets think about this: "since we are basing standards on which Pokemon are used in a competitive enviroment (namely, what you would use in a tournament), would someone over use a bad Pokemon?" No. People want to win, and since people like to use the best Pokemon, we have a correlation between usage and power. The problem comes around when people group Pokemon obviously meant for the BL tier in the OU tier and it becomes a meaningless list of what people think is strong. When it's subjective like that, arguments occur and nobody is happy and it can't really be consistent.

I tried to explain this in a way that everyone can understand. Stop trying to rename the tiers, and stop going offtopic about why you think Venusaur should be OU because it isn't OU. How should I rearrange this list?
Ubers

Standards

Borderline

Note: Because Smogon UU Rules do not allow Borderlines in the Underused metagame (unlike many other websites), this category is used to differentiate the Standard Pokémon that are not as commonly used, but can play well or decently in the Standard metagame or are too powerful for Underused.

Underused

Neverused

Brood_Star · Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:03:45 AM

Predicting a bunch of debates, but.

Cloyster ---> OU (I see a few players using it nowadays)

Blaziken ---> BL
Breloom ---> BL (No one uses it anymore)
Charizard ---> BL
Exeggutor ---> BL
Gardevoir ---> BL (pathetic attempt of an alakazam)
Ludicolo ---> BL (Typing is interesting... nice special tank and staller but not used much)
Marowak ---> BL
Moltres ---> BL
Ninjask ---> BL (only on BP teams... which are rare itself)
Regirock ---> BL
Rhydon ---> BL
Slaking ---> BL
Steelix ---> BL
Tauros ---> BL (I've seen it once. Viable, but not used much because top physical attackers like sala/gross or lax outshines it)
Umbreon---> BL (If EspyJump is, ChaosBreon should be too!)
Venusaur ---> BL

Haryiama ---> UU (does shit in OU, and i don't think it'd be gamebreaking in UU)
Miltank ---> UU (see above)
Swellow ---> UU (see above)
Furret ---> UU (Movepool isn't THAT bad compared to some other pokes. Would make a good UU-CB)
Girafarig ---> UU (Can pass CM's AND Agilities and its stats aren't all that bad after a CM)
Whishcash ---> UU (Pretty strong if you ask me)

Roselia ---> NU
Bellossom ---> NU (crappy vileplume apparently)
Hitmonchan ---> NU (Worse than Hitmonlee and Hitmontop and other fighters)
Tangela ---> NU

Debatable
Wynaut ---> BL (I think it was Obi who put up an argument, and it really does make sense. It's basically a 3x worse Dugtrio, and too strong for UU)
Alakazam ---> BL (Not seen as much, and I'm not sure why)
Dragonite ---> BL (Pretty much a similar-yet-different Sala)
Flygon ---> BL (Outclassed by Sala IMO... I mean it's got a worse trait and worse attacks AND worse stats)
Linoone ---> BL (Tried him out and he is pretty strong because with Salac he hits 396 and gets Belly Drum and STAB Flail)
Medicham ---> BL (I really don't know how much it's used)
Sceptile ---> BL (Grassers really never used)

Scizor ---> UU (uhh, Scyther is pretty much better and both don't do much in OU)
Clamperl ---> UU (What you get when you cross the HP of a Shedninja and the attack of a Marowak. It's basically Marowak but one level lower, hence UU)
Shuckle ---> UU (shit is strong. Don't see how Wynaut is Uber and this guy is NU)

Exploud ---> NU (Really only useful for Soundproof, and Mr. Mime says hi)
Sneasel ---> NU (Whats the point of Swords Dancing on this guy with terrible stats and movepool

As stated before, only the "Fully Evolved Pokemon" should be included on the list. Exceptions are if the last pokemon is different from the fully evolved one (Trapinch *NU, Pikachu *UU, Vigoroth *UU, Scyther *UU are the top ones... there are some others like Duskull and the crap bugs). This means Kadabra and Chansey should be removed. Make a note somewhere that all other Not Fully Evolved Pokemon are considered Borderline. That's just my idea.

Yawn, buncha pokes can work good in BL but deserve to stay UU... Lanturn... Gligar.... Granbull. I don't see why people are suggesting them though. I don't play UU much, but as long as it's not "broken", it shouldn't be suggested into BL/OU. However, anything in BL that can work fine in UU without being broken should be moved down...

Butterfree is pretty debatable - IMO it should stay UU though because dumping it in NU means anything with less than 85 Speed will get sleeped or mass stunned. Luvdisc, Ratticate, Minun, Plusle, Murkrow, Pidgeot, Venomoth, Aipom, Illumise, Ledian, Volbeat (Thanks PR!). Anything else in NU will get stunned/sleeped automatically unless they have a speed boost, and even if any of the above mentioned do go first, who's to say it'd kill Butterfree?

Kingler should also stay UU. There are better Reversal/Flailers, and the only cool thing about Kingler is Crabhammer. Otherwise, he's outmatched by everything

Vileplume should also stay UU. Outmatched by too much like Venusaur, Exeggutor and Celebi depending on the set

Jynx is good BL IMO. Don't see it much.

Also, rereading Obi's post on the second page, it seems like he disagrees with Chaos.

Chaos says that tiers are based off usage, except for BL. Obi is the reverse, where tiers are based off power, except for BL. However, thinking about it Obi's is definately the better way and I'm sure many will agree with me.

EDIT: Fixed my post up a bit. Testing around pokes suggested by other people

DOUBLE EDIT: Fixed it up a bit more after Obi's explanation on second page

***chaos***** · Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:08:49 AM

I agree with bumping up Cloyster, it seems to be a popular anti-Skarm. Wynaut could be considered without Leftovers, and the rest of what you gave in the "non debatable" section seems to be fine (assuming people want Steelix banned... I'm not sure what the consensus is on that.)

Ludicolo should definitely be moved down to BL, Ninjask I say should probably stay in OU as it is the mainstay of every Baton Pass team... I wouldn't move Espeon and Houndoom.

These are my thoughts! (and don't put yourself down, I thought they were good suggestions :x)

david stone · Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:10:55 AM

(Repost with some rewording, as I think this all still applies)

Wynaut should be moved to BL, or maybe even UU. It lack's Wobbuffet's massive HP, thus severely nerfing its effectiveness, is too slow to Encore or Destiny Bond effectively, and most things can 1-2HKO it. If you're concerned with draws, then how does moving it to ubers solve that? A Wobbuffet-Wobbuffet match up or Wynaut-Wynaut match up in ubers is just as much of a draw as it is in OU. Just ban Leftovers on Wobbuffet and Wynaut if the only reason you put it onto ubers is to avoid draws. If Leftovers are not allowable, then the only reason to avoid them is for their stats and ability. Wynaut's stats are too low for its ability to have any use (It would be more useless than Trapinch, except against Curselax, which an Encorezam stops far more effectively). Without Leftovers, even Wobbuffet would need reconsideration, possibly moving it down to OU. No Leftovers Wobbuffet/Wynaut makes sense, as it finally gets rid of that implication that ubers=fake. I'd say it's the most "real" tier, or at least, the least arbitrary.

Vigoroth needs to be added to the list somewhere. All distinct Pokemon should be on there (a distinct Pokemon would be all final evolutions, and all pre-evos that are different in some meaningful way from their fully evolved counterpart). Vigoroth and Slaking are two completely different Pokemon. If Slowbro and Slowking, who are virtually identical, get two entries, then Vigoroth deserves it, too. I'd put it in UU, as it has lower attack and speed than Fearow, a lot less attack and worse trait than Granbull, etc. The only real advantage to it is to run Flail and Reversal on the same set, which stops people who rely solely on things like Aggron to wall Flailers, but then they're still lost against things like Hitmonlee, who is a far better Reversaler than Vigoroth, anyway.

If Kadabra and Chansey make the cut for being on the list for purposes of banning them from UU, then Pupitar might also belong in BL, thanks to that STAB EQ and Dragon Dance.

What is the general policy on NFEs in UU and NU?

Arcanine is definitely not more powerful than Gligar, it should be moved down to UU. Of course, I haven't tried out the special sweeper set, so maybe that is enough of a powerful thing to be banned, but I doubt it. Really, Arcanine isn't that much of a threat.

Umbreon should be dropped down to BL.

Really, we need some sort of thing where you just say "Pokemon X is OU, Pokemon Y is BL" so we know where the cutoff line is. How many Pokemon are we looking at for the OU tier before it gets dropped down to BL?

***Jumpman16***** · Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:23:09 AM

I can see this fast devolving into another "debate," so I'll just say let's reserve our arguments for when we all have cold, hard numbers to back them up =/

Bologo · Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:26:01 AM

Clamperl should be moved to UU from UE because of deepseatooth and 542 sp.attack after that.

Scyther should be moved to BL because IMO it's better than Scizor and the speed really helps it sweep and baton pass a lot more efficiently, and if Scizor is BL, Scyther should be too.

Kingler should be BL because it has 130 attack, and 115 defense. It also has 75 speed which can be helped and it has amnesia to help its terrible special defense.

Therefore IMO:

Clamperl >>>> UU
Scyther >>>> BL
Kingler >>>> BL

***chaos***** · Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:29:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Obi

(Repost with some rewording, as I think this all still applies)

Wynaut should be moved to BL, or maybe even UU. It lack's Wobbuffet's massive HP, thus severely nerfing its effectiveness, is too slow to Encore or Destiny Bond effectively, and most things can 1-2HKO it. If you're concerned with draws, then how does moving it to ubers solve that? A Wobbuffet-Wobbuffet match up or Wynaut-Wynaut match up in ubers is just as much of a draw as it is in OU. Just ban Leftovers on Wobbuffet and Wynaut if the only reason you put it onto ubers is to avoid draws. If Leftovers are not allowable, then the only reason to avoid them is for their stats and ability. Wynaut's stats are too low for its ability to have any use (It would be more useless than Trapinch, except against Curselax, which an Encorezam stops far more effectively). Without Leftovers, even Wobbuffet would need reconsideration, possibly moving it down to OU. No Leftovers Wobbuffet/Wynaut makes sense, as it finally gets rid of that implication that ubers=fake. I'd say it's the most "real" tier, or at least, the least arbitrary.

I dunno, I like the idea of that allowed without Leftovers.. it might make even Wobbuffet a tad less gay.

Vigoroth needs to be added to the list somewhere. All distinct Pokemon should be on there (a distinct Pokemon would be all final evolutions, and all pre-evos that are different in some meaningful way from their fully evolved counterpart). Vigoroth and Slaking are two completely different Pokemon. If Slowbro and Slowking, who are virtually identical, get two entries, then Vigoroth deserves it, too. I'd put it in UU, as it has lower attack and speed than Fearow, a lot less attack and worse trait than Granbull, etc. The only real advantage to it is to run Flail and Reversal on the same set, which stops people who rely solely on things like Aggron to wall Flailers, but then they're still lost against things like Hitmonlee, who is a far better Reversaler than Vigoroth, anyway.

I agree with the distinct Pokemon sentiments

If Kadabra and Chansey make the cut for being on the list for purposes of banning them from UU, then Pupitar might also belong in BL, thanks to that STAB EQ and Dragon Dance.

Not sure, neve used Pupitar... NFEs are tricky material

What is the general policy on NFEs in UU and NU?

From what I know they are fair game.

Arcanine is definitely not more powerful than Gligar, it should be moved down to UU. Of course, I haven't tried out the special sweeper set, so maybe that is enough of a powerful thing to be banned, but I doubt it. Really, Arcanine isn't that much of a threat.

It's definitely in either BL or UU, not really sure which would work better.

Umbreon should be dropped down to BL.

yeah

Really, we need some sort of thing where you just say "Pokemon X is OU, Pokemon Y is BL" so we know where the cutoff line is. How many Pokemon are we looking at for the OU tier before it gets dropped down to BL?

I'm looking for "standards", ones you constantly see in standard battles. After this topic gets a few more replies, I'll reorganize list with changes and see how people think it looks.

Aeroblacktyl · Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:32:28 AM

These should all go down to BL. You never see any of these used.

Cloyster

Goes to BL.

Kingler should stay UU, you forget it's crap Specials. =/
Scyther is eh...but you don't exactly seeing it doing much in the UU Metagame..

Espeon and Houndoom shouldn't be moved up to OU.

I think Pikachu needs to be in UU for the same reason Clamperl is.

Even without leftoevers on Wobbu/Wynaut, you still have run through like roughly 90 PP to get to the struggle phase. =[

david stone · Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:48:43 AM

But it eventually ends, rather than causing a draw. Wobbuffet needs something like 44 consecutive CHes to KO enemy Wobbuffet, give or take.

Mow · Jul 23rd, 2006, 2:00:07 AM

Quote:

What the tiers are and how they are calculated

The tiers represent how much a Pokemon is used in the base metagame.

if everyone decided that wooper was badass and everyone played it, it would hit OU play?

I always thought tiers were based off of utility, and thus became used more often for being useful.

can't wait till every team is salamence zapdos tyrantiar ect.

meddle · Jul 23rd, 2006, 3:29:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Obi

Arcanine is definitely not more powerful than Gligar, it should be moved down to UU. Of course, I haven't tried out the special sweeper set, so maybe that is enough of a powerful thing to be banned, but I doubt it. Really, Arcanine isn't that much of a threat.

The special set is beastly, with both uu special tanks (grumpig/hypno) being weak to base 100 crunch, and solrock as well. It can really rip through teams in underused.

Arcanine is indeed a threat, in my opinion. And if you go by base stat totals it's above Blissey, Snorlax, Milotic, and Gyarados, if that means anything.

It should be BL.

Amelia · Jul 23rd, 2006, 4:16:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Obi

But it eventually ends, rather than causing a draw. Wobbuffet needs something like 44 consecutive CHes to KO enemy Wobbuffet, give or take.

Cough. (does anyone know mirror coat doesn't work against dark, and counter doesn't work against ghost?)

Leave wobbuffet at uber.
Houndoom should be OU. It's a special sweeper that can work against blissey.
Dusclops - BL. It's hardly used except for stall teams.
Lanturn - BL. The volt absorb rocks. Add to the fact that it can boltbeam.
Electabuzz - BL. Subpunch Boltbeam. (replace beam with ice punch).

Think that's about it.

Devilkid · Jul 23rd, 2006, 5:28:52 AM

My changes would be:

Eggy -> BL It never worked good in OU game, Solar Beam gets fucked up by Boah switch ins or w/e.
Arcanine -> UU Man this thing fucking sucks, I have no clue why you have that in BL, no one ever uses this!!!
Dodrio -> OU 350 Att, 299 Speed, STAB Return+Drill Peck. Pack a Maggy+Duggy (Nubcombo) on your team and Dodrio rapes!
Hariyama -> UU LOL BL? Machamp is so much better and in UU u still have Primeape, which outclasses Hariyama imo too.
Jynx -> OU Well this thing is insane good. It's even difficult to counter in OU, and if you make a UU+BL tourney, hf searching for a counter for Jynx. :lol: On top you have Gardy in OU, so why shouldn't this be OU too??
Swellow -> UU There is enough in UU, which counters this!
Lanturn -> BL Lanturn rules!
Tentacruel -> BL Oh god, this thing dominates the UU game so much, besides Quaggy I don't find a counter to this. :( Make it BL!

SpaceFlare · Jul 23rd, 2006, 5:39:24 AM

Tangela, Hitmonchan, Flareon to NU imo.

Swellow and Hariyama to UU.

Cloyster and Jynx move up to OU.

Blaziken, Charizard, and Exeggutor BL.

dynamo · Jul 23rd, 2006, 6:37:55 AM

Cloyster to OU imo

Umbreon to BL, it hardly ever sees use, as well as Breloom

**gene** · Jul 23rd, 2006, 9:22:58 AM

Breloom: To BL. I haven't seen anyone use this for a really long time.

Exeggutor: To BL. Eggy is way too rare.

Ludicolo: To BL. Haven't ever seen Ludicolo be common.

Ninjask: To BL. Baton Pass teams aren't even all that common anyway. Ninjask is almost never used outside BP teams either.

Regirock: To BL. Rarely see this used.

Umbreon: To BL. I haven't seen this used outside BP teams much, and not many people use Umbreon anymore.

Venusaur: To BL. This is not really used much at all, I don't see why it would be OU.

Cloyster: To OU. I see this used a LOT.

Also about some other suggestions:

Arcanine should stay BL. The special set (Fire Blast/Crunch/HP Grass/Extremespeed) is damn hard to counter. This is an excellent Pokemon and way too good for UU, as I have seen with my SF matches.

Lanturn should stay UU. It's not even that common anymore and if it is used, it is pretty easily stalled.

Tentacruel should stay UU. Why would anyone want to ban this anyway. Tenta is totally screwed by Feraligatr, Quagsire and anything with the defenses to take a Sludge Bomb and hurt it with Tbolt/Quake.

Electabuzz should stay UU. Nobody uses Focus Punch or Cross Chop in UU, not like it would do anything. Just get a special wall like Hypno or Grumpig and problem solved. This isn't broken at all.

Moving Swellow and Hariyama to UU would make them whored but I can't see them being broken.

Sir Spanky · Jul 23rd, 2006, 10:17:44 AM

I don't have anything particulally influencial to say about moving specific Pokemon, but I still say we don't include any NFE's except Scyther, Vigaroth, Pikachu and Trapinch, in UU, UU, UU and NU respectively, as they are the only NFE's that actually play different to their evolved counterparts.

Having shit like Kadabra/Haunter/Metang/Chansey in BL/UU just makes it into OU-lite, which pretty muke ruins the whole idea of the UU metagame. It isn't supposed to be a weaker version of the OU game, but using the NFE's forces it to be.

Spanky

Snapple · Jul 23rd, 2006, 10:55:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat chaos

I really don't think people understand what the tiers are especially since the last topic I posted was going every which way in confusion and there was even a post by "Snapple" about how there isn't any confusion about the tiers.

:x Anyway, I guess I shouldn't have made assumptions about how confused people are over the tiers. I only said what I said, because if we changed the names OU and UU and whatnot now, I think people will start asking questions about why it changed, and old people coming back to the game might be thrown for a curve and whatnot, but that is not for me to decide obviously. I'll shut up about it.

Back to the real topic, which is deciding what belongs on what tier, I just have a couple.

Roselia should be added to NU. (Originally I thought UU, but some posts in the last topic convinced me it ought to be NU instead)
Move Butterfree from UU down to NU. I don't think Butterfree is too powerful for the NU metagame by a longshot.
Add Pikachu to UU. Reasons obvious. It's unique enough to set it apart from Raichu, and that makes it worth its own entry, unlike most NFEs.
Add Vigoroth to UU. Completely different animal from Slaking.

I'm against adding any NFEs to the list that don't have advantages over their FEs. Pikachu and Vigoroth have obvious advantages. Clamperl does, too, but I never see anyone use Clamperl.

***Jumpman16***** · Jul 23rd, 2006, 11:00:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Devilkid

My changes would be:

Dodrio -> OU 350 Att, 299 Speed, STAB Return+Drill Peck. Pack a Maggy+Duggy (Nubcombo) on your team and Dodrio rapes!

Ok I already hate this thread...do you have any idea how many pokemon would "rape" with Magneton and Dugtrio support? If this thread is going to continue to breed arguments as silly as this one, I really, really think there's no point to discussing tiers at all, at least not on a widescale level.

Slobroking · Jul 23rd, 2006, 11:36:09 AM

* Alakazam
* Blaziken
* Charizard
* Exeggutor
* Gardevoir
* Ludicolo
* Marowak
* Moltres
* Regirock
* Rhydon
* Umbreon
* Venusaur

The above should all be BL IMO, not because they aren't strong but because they aren't used much.

* Chansey should be removed from the list
* Cloyster should be OU
* Kadabra should be removed from the list
* Bellossom should be NU
* Butterfree should be NU
* Exploud should be NU
* Hitmonchan should be NU
* Kingler should be NU
* Seviper should be NU
* Sneasel should be NU
* Tangela should definately be NU

***chaos***** · Jul 23rd, 2006, 11:44:52 AM

Quote:

Houndoom should be OU. It's a special sweeper that can work against blissey.
Dodrio -> OU 350 Att, 299 Speed, STAB Return+Drill Peck. Pack a Maggy+Duggy (Nubcombo) on your team and Dodrio rapes! Jynx -> OU Well this thing is insane good. It's even difficult to counter in OU, and if you make a UU+BL tourney, hf searching for a counter for Jynx. :lol: On top you have Gardy in OU, so why shouldn't this be OU too??

If you aren't going to read the first post in its enterity, do NOT post in this topic. I clearly outline that the tiers are based on usage and not power, so stop giving excuses such as "it's REALLY strong." Gardevoir is in OU because the list needs fixing. God. :/

No UU+BL arguments either, Smogon doesn't allow BLs just like standard doesn't allow Ubers. If you want to make your own weird variant of a tournament where you pick 1 or 2 BLs/1 or 2 Ubers feel free to also change the list slightly to suit that style of play.

Quote:

if everyone decided that wooper was badass and everyone played it, it would hit OU play?

I always thought tiers were based off of utility, and thus became used more often for being useful.

can't wait till every team is salamence zapdos tyrantiar ect.

Yes, but nobody will use Wooper so dumb "what if" posts are useless. I could say in response "what if everybody thought wooper was badass and really strong so it was put in the OU tier because people thought it was powerful"

And every team is already like that. Welcome to Pokemon, kid

Yuki · Jul 23rd, 2006, 12:29:49 PM

seriously, I am also tired of dumbshits posting stuff in threads like this saying LOLZSERZ WHAT IF CB RATATTA BECAME STANDARD. Smogon is not full of idiots, thats serebii =x.

Also, I still say Butterfree needs to be put into NU. I have never seen anyone use Butterfree in UU and the thought of it makes me laugh (And this is coming from a guy that used Butterfree in his JAA team :/). You would THINK it would get used because of Compoundeyes Sleeppowder, but it doesnt.

Along with Butterfree, Flareon, Hitmonchan, and Tangela need moved down for the same reason, they are quite literally never used.

Rolelia is Neverused by the way, yet people wont stop bitching that its not on the list. Irony for the win.

Also, wouldn't it be a good idea to sticky this?

The.Lost.Hylian · Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:44:19 PM

After reading chaos' lengthy new first post in this thread, I had to lol when I saw Venusaur was still listed as OU.

Iggeh · Jul 23rd, 2006, 2:31:11 PM

I'll leave all that tier listing debating to you guys, I'd just like it if Roselia was actually on the freaking list.

Animerocks · Jul 23rd, 2006, 2:33:53 PM

Pikachu-Neverused atleast,if not underused for sure.I have been able to ohko milotic and suicune with a volt takle,provided it was maxed out sp atk @ an adamant nature,also Light ball and the fact that pikachu does not focus punch worth shit makes it a completly different pogey from raichu.

Houndoom-This thing rapes the standard metagame,it is standard for sure with the 2 double stabs in speical atk and base 110 sp atk to work off of.

Dodrio-Move this to standard imo,pair it with anything with a decent sp atk and a good fire move and this thing can tear anything in two,i personally like the flail set =/.

Flygon-Borderline imo,Do not get me wrong he probably is good,but ive never understood why he is classified as a standard,he just doesnt seem good enough to be classified as such.

Vigoroth-He has the stats and moves to be considerd Underused imo.

Roselia-Neverused,did you guys forget to add this or somthing?

Lanturn-Borderline,the abilty to boltbeam of decent sp atk and the abilty to counter bolt(absorb)/beam/bulkywaters make its worthy of boderline.

Raichu-Honestly,i think this guy is bl. It has a very good movepool espcially with its type(electric),and it has the stats to make use of it.

Butterfree-Come on now,its clear that it is a neverused pogey.

I wil let you know when i think more.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:03:45 AM	#2
Brood_Star Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 167	Predicting a bunch of debates, but. Cloyster ---> OU (I see a few players using it nowadays) Blaziken ---> BL Breloom ---> BL (No one uses it anymore) Charizard ---> BL Exeggutor ---> BL Gardevoir ---> BL (pathetic attempt of an alakazam) Ludicolo ---> BL (Typing is interesting... nice special tank and staller but not used much) Marowak ---> BL Moltres ---> BL Ninjask ---> BL (only on BP teams... which are rare itself) Regirock ---> BL Rhydon ---> BL Slaking ---> BL Steelix ---> BL Tauros ---> BL (I've seen it once. Viable, but not used much because top physical attackers like sala/gross or lax outshines it) Umbreon---> BL (If EspyJump is, ChaosBreon should be too!) Venusaur ---> BL Haryiama ---> UU (does shit in OU, and i don't think it'd be gamebreaking in UU) Miltank ---> UU (see above) Swellow ---> UU (see above) Furret ---> UU (Movepool isn't THAT bad compared to some other pokes. Would make a good UU-CB) Girafarig ---> UU (Can pass CM's AND Agilities and its stats aren't all that bad after a CM) Whishcash ---> UU (Pretty strong if you ask me) Roselia ---> NU Bellossom ---> NU (crappy vileplume apparently) Hitmonchan ---> NU (Worse than Hitmonlee and Hitmontop and other fighters) Tangela ---> NU Debatable Wynaut ---> BL (I think it was Obi who put up an argument, and it really does make sense. It's basically a 3x worse Dugtrio, and too strong for UU) Alakazam ---> BL (Not seen as much, and I'm not sure why) Dragonite ---> BL (Pretty much a similar-yet-different Sala) Flygon ---> BL (Outclassed by Sala IMO... I mean it's got a worse trait and worse attacks AND worse stats) Linoone ---> BL (Tried him out and he is pretty strong because with Salac he hits 396 and gets Belly Drum and STAB Flail) Medicham ---> BL (I really don't know how much it's used) Sceptile ---> BL (Grassers really never used) Scizor ---> UU (uhh, Scyther is pretty much better and both don't do much in OU) Clamperl ---> UU (What you get when you cross the HP of a Shedninja and the attack of a Marowak. It's basically Marowak but one level lower, hence UU) Shuckle ---> UU (shit is strong. Don't see how Wynaut is Uber and this guy is NU) Exploud ---> NU (Really only useful for Soundproof, and Mr. Mime says hi) Sneasel ---> NU (Whats the point of Swords Dancing on this guy with terrible stats and movepool As stated before, only the "Fully Evolved Pokemon" should be included on the list. Exceptions are if the last pokemon is different from the fully evolved one (Trapinch NU, Pikachu UU, Vigoroth UU, Scyther UU are the top ones... there are some others like Duskull and the crap bugs). This means Kadabra and Chansey should be removed. Make a note somewhere that all other Not Fully Evolved Pokemon are considered Borderline. That's just my idea. Yawn, buncha pokes can work good in BL but deserve to stay UU... Lanturn... Gligar.... Granbull. I don't see why people are suggesting them though. I don't play UU much, but as long as it's not "broken", it shouldn't be suggested into BL/OU. However, anything in BL that can work fine in UU without being broken should be moved down... Butterfree is pretty debatable - IMO it should stay UU though because dumping it in NU means anything with less than 85 Speed will get sleeped or mass stunned. Luvdisc, Ratticate, Minun, Plusle, Murkrow, Pidgeot, Venomoth, Aipom, Illumise, Ledian, Volbeat (Thanks PR!). Anything else in NU will get stunned/sleeped automatically unless they have a speed boost, and even if any of the above mentioned do go first, who's to say it'd kill Butterfree? Kingler should also stay UU. There are better Reversal/Flailers, and the only cool thing about Kingler is Crabhammer. Otherwise, he's outmatched by everything Vileplume should also stay UU. Outmatched by too much like Venusaur, Exeggutor and Celebi depending on the set Jynx is good BL IMO. Don't see it much. Also, rereading Obi's post on the second page, it seems like he disagrees with Chaos. Chaos says that tiers are based off usage, except for BL. Obi is the reverse, where tiers are based off power, except for BL. However, thinking about it Obi's is definately the better way and I'm sure many will agree with me. EDIT: Fixed my post up a bit. Testing around pokes suggested by other people DOUBLE EDIT: Fixed it up a bit more after Obi's explanation on second page Last edited by Brood_Star; Jul 23rd, 2006 at 11:49:53 PM.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:08:49 AM	#3
*chaos* chaos Administrator** Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 8,712	I agree with bumping up Cloyster, it seems to be a popular anti-Skarm. Wynaut could be considered without Leftovers, and the rest of what you gave in the "non debatable" section seems to be fine (assuming people want Steelix banned... I'm not sure what the consensus is on that.) Ludicolo should definitely be moved down to BL, Ninjask I say should probably stay in OU as it is the mainstay of every Baton Pass team... I wouldn't move Espeon and Houndoom. These are my thoughts! (and don't put yourself down, I thought they were good suggestions :x) __________________ !gabite fierce: y'd u mute me?? !gabite fierce: eh bro?? !gabite fierce: u scared that i might bash u cuz u r not replying? ~chaos: you can't honestly think that is the reason lol !gabite fierce: tell me the reason oh is it cuz of bolding the writing? !gabite fierce: eh? !gabite fierce: u scared again?

Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:10:55 AM	#4
david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming. Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,152	(Repost with some rewording, as I think this all still applies) Wynaut should be moved to BL, or maybe even UU. It lack's Wobbuffet's massive HP, thus severely nerfing its effectiveness, is too slow to Encore or Destiny Bond effectively, and most things can 1-2HKO it. If you're concerned with draws, then how does moving it to ubers solve that? A Wobbuffet-Wobbuffet match up or Wynaut-Wynaut match up in ubers is just as much of a draw as it is in OU. Just ban Leftovers on Wobbuffet and Wynaut if the only reason you put it onto ubers is to avoid draws. If Leftovers are not allowable, then the only reason to avoid them is for their stats and ability. Wynaut's stats are too low for its ability to have any use (It would be more useless than Trapinch, except against Curselax, which an Encorezam stops far more effectively). Without Leftovers, even Wobbuffet would need reconsideration, possibly moving it down to OU. No Leftovers Wobbuffet/Wynaut makes sense, as it finally gets rid of that implication that ubers=fake. I'd say it's the most "real" tier, or at least, the least arbitrary. Vigoroth needs to be added to the list somewhere. All distinct Pokemon should be on there (a distinct Pokemon would be all final evolutions, and all pre-evos that are different in some meaningful way from their fully evolved counterpart). Vigoroth and Slaking are two completely different Pokemon. If Slowbro and Slowking, who are virtually identical, get two entries, then Vigoroth deserves it, too. I'd put it in UU, as it has lower attack and speed than Fearow, a lot less attack and worse trait than Granbull, etc. The only real advantage to it is to run Flail and Reversal on the same set, which stops people who rely solely on things like Aggron to wall Flailers, but then they're still lost against things like Hitmonlee, who is a far better Reversaler than Vigoroth, anyway. If Kadabra and Chansey make the cut for being on the list for purposes of banning them from UU, then Pupitar might also belong in BL, thanks to that STAB EQ and Dragon Dance. What is the general policy on NFEs in UU and NU? Arcanine is definitely not more powerful than Gligar, it should be moved down to UU. Of course, I haven't tried out the special sweeper set, so maybe that is enough of a powerful thing to be banned, but I doubt it. Really, Arcanine isn't that much of a threat. Umbreon should be dropped down to BL. Really, we need some sort of thing where you just say "Pokemon X is OU, Pokemon Y is BL" so we know where the cutoff line is. How many Pokemon are we looking at for the OU tier before it gets dropped down to BL? __________________ Previously obi. Technical Machine, a Pokemon AI. "Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu

Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:23:09 AM	#5
*Jumpman16* np: Michael Jackson - 'Mon in the Mirror (Dream World mix off the "Black or White" album) Administrator** Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,737 Fuqua: Where business cases are read and devils are blue	I can see this fast devolving into another "debate," so I'll just say let's reserve our arguments for when we all have cold, hard numbers to back them up =/ __________________ You haven't trolled till you've trolled in real life. Read A Mullet's Tale for reference if you haven't yet!

Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:32:28 AM	#8
Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL! Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 8,334	Breloom Charizard Dragonite Exeggutor Ludicolo Marowak Moltres Ninjask Regirock Rhydon Slaking Steelix Tauros Venusaur These should all go down to BL. You never see any of these used. Cloyster Goes to BL. Kingler should stay UU, you forget it's crap Specials. =/ Scyther is eh...but you don't exactly seeing it doing much in the UU Metagame.. Espeon and Houndoom shouldn't be moved up to OU. I think Pikachu needs to be in UU for the same reason Clamperl is. Even without leftoevers on Wobbu/Wynaut, you still have run through like roughly 90 PP to get to the struggle phase. =[ __________________ Last edited by Aeroblacktyl; Jul 23rd, 2006 at 1:34:47 AM.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:26:01 AM	#6
Bologo Have fun with birds and bees. Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,828 Brampton, Ontario	Clamperl should be moved to UU from UE because of deepseatooth and 542 sp.attack after that. Scyther should be moved to BL because IMO it's better than Scizor and the speed really helps it sweep and baton pass a lot more efficiently, and if Scizor is BL, Scyther should be too. Kingler should be BL because it has 130 attack, and 115 defense. It also has 75 speed which can be helped and it has amnesia to help its terrible special defense. Therefore IMO: Clamperl >>>> UU Scyther >>>> BL Kingler >>>> BL

Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:48:43 AM	#9
david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming. Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,152	But it eventually ends, rather than causing a draw. Wobbuffet needs something like 44 consecutive CHes to KO enemy Wobbuffet, give or take. __________________ Previously obi. Technical Machine, a Pokemon AI. "Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu

Jul 23rd, 2006, 5:28:52 AM	#13
Devilkid Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 446 Germany	My changes would be: Eggy -> BL It never worked good in OU game, Solar Beam gets fucked up by Boah switch ins or w/e. Arcanine -> UU Man this thing fucking sucks, I have no clue why you have that in BL, no one ever uses this!!! Dodrio -> OU 350 Att, 299 Speed, STAB Return+Drill Peck. Pack a Maggy+Duggy (Nubcombo) on your team and Dodrio rapes! Hariyama -> UU LOL BL? Machamp is so much better and in UU u still have Primeape, which outclasses Hariyama imo too. Jynx -> OU Well this thing is insane good. It's even difficult to counter in OU, and if you make a UU+BL tourney, hf searching for a counter for Jynx. :lol: On top you have Gardy in OU, so why shouldn't this be OU too?? Swellow -> UU There is enough in UU, which counters this! Lanturn -> BL Lanturn rules! Tentacruel -> BL Oh god, this thing dominates the UU game so much, besides Quaggy I don't find a counter to this. :( Make it BL! __________________ Steelicks: fuck that pansy poofy "girls are just as important as men" shit Steelicks: its not true, we are better than them at everything except giving birth, and they cant even do that without our help He is j/k btw, at least I think so :) Last edited by Devilkid; Jul 23rd, 2006 at 5:33:50 AM.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 5:39:24 AM	#14
SpaceFlare Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,242 Philippines	Tangela, Hitmonchan, Flareon to NU imo. Swellow and Hariyama to UU. Cloyster and Jynx move up to OU. Blaziken, Charizard, and Exeggutor BL.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 6:37:55 AM	#15
dynamo Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,782 England	Cloyster to OU imo Umbreon to BL, it hardly ever sees use, as well as Breloom __________________ well you know I used to have a friend code here but then my wifi decided to be gay

Jul 23rd, 2006, 9:22:58 AM	#16
gene GENE Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,715 Buffalo, NY	Breloom: To BL. I haven't seen anyone use this for a really long time. Exeggutor: To BL. Eggy is way too rare. Ludicolo: To BL. Haven't ever seen Ludicolo be common. Ninjask: To BL. Baton Pass teams aren't even all that common anyway. Ninjask is almost never used outside BP teams either. Regirock: To BL. Rarely see this used. Umbreon: To BL. I haven't seen this used outside BP teams much, and not many people use Umbreon anymore. Venusaur: To BL. This is not really used much at all, I don't see why it would be OU. Cloyster: To OU. I see this used a LOT. Also about some other suggestions: Arcanine should stay BL. The special set (Fire Blast/Crunch/HP Grass/Extremespeed) is damn hard to counter. This is an excellent Pokemon and way too good for UU, as I have seen with my SF matches. Lanturn should stay UU. It's not even that common anymore and if it is used, it is pretty easily stalled. Tentacruel should stay UU. Why would anyone want to ban this anyway. Tenta is totally screwed by Feraligatr, Quagsire and anything with the defenses to take a Sludge Bomb and hurt it with Tbolt/Quake. Electabuzz should stay UU. Nobody uses Focus Punch or Cross Chop in UU, not like it would do anything. Just get a special wall like Hypno or Grumpig and problem solved. This isn't broken at all. Moving Swellow and Hariyama to UU would make them whored but I can't see them being broken.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 10:17:44 AM	#17
Sir Spanky Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,794 England	I don't have anything particulally influencial to say about moving specific Pokemon, but I still say we don't include any NFE's except Scyther, Vigaroth, Pikachu and Trapinch, in UU, UU, UU and NU respectively, as they are the only NFE's that actually play different to their evolved counterparts. Having shit like Kadabra/Haunter/Metang/Chansey in BL/UU just makes it into OU-lite, which pretty muke ruins the whole idea of the UU metagame. It isn't supposed to be a weaker version of the OU game, but using the NFE's forces it to be. Spanky __________________ :amusing quote:

Jul 23rd, 2006, 11:36:09 AM	#20
Slobroking Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,203	* Alakazam * Blaziken * Charizard * Exeggutor * Gardevoir * Ludicolo * Marowak * Moltres * Regirock * Rhydon * Umbreon * Venusaur The above should all be BL IMO, not because they aren't strong but because they aren't used much. * Chansey should be removed from the list * Cloyster should be OU * Kadabra should be removed from the list * Bellossom should be NU * Butterfree should be NU * Exploud should be NU * Hitmonchan should be NU * Kingler should be NU * Seviper should be NU * Sneasel should be NU * Tangela should definately be NU Last edited by Slobroking; Jul 23rd, 2006 at 11:59:50 AM.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 12:29:49 PM	#22
Yuki Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 745 ATL	seriously, I am also tired of dumbshits posting stuff in threads like this saying LOLZSERZ WHAT IF CB RATATTA BECAME STANDARD. Smogon is not full of idiots, thats serebii =x. Also, I still say Butterfree needs to be put into NU. I have never seen anyone use Butterfree in UU and the thought of it makes me laugh (And this is coming from a guy that used Butterfree in his JAA team :/). You would THINK it would get used because of Compoundeyes Sleeppowder, but it doesnt. Along with Butterfree, Flareon, Hitmonchan, and Tangela need moved down for the same reason, they are quite literally never used. Rolelia is Neverused by the way, yet people wont stop bitching that its not on the list. Irony for the win. Also, wouldn't it be a good idea to sticky this? Last edited by Yuki; Jul 23rd, 2006 at 3:35:10 PM.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 1:44:19 PM	#23
The.Lost.Hylian Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 5,788 North Carolina, United States	After reading chaos' lengthy new first post in this thread, I had to lol when I saw Venusaur was still listed as OU. __________________ If you're interested in contributing to a heavily customized Pokemon Online server, PM me for details.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 2:31:11 PM	#24
Iggeh Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 87	I'll leave all that tier listing debating to you guys, I'd just like it if Roselia was actually on the freaking list.

Jul 23rd, 2006, 2:33:53 PM	#25
Animerocks Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 381	Pikachu-Neverused atleast,if not underused for sure.I have been able to ohko milotic and suicune with a volt takle,provided it was maxed out sp atk @ an adamant nature,also Light ball and the fact that pikachu does not focus punch worth shit makes it a completly different pogey from raichu. Houndoom-This thing rapes the standard metagame,it is standard for sure with the 2 double stabs in speical atk and base 110 sp atk to work off of. Dodrio-Move this to standard imo,pair it with anything with a decent sp atk and a good fire move and this thing can tear anything in two,i personally like the flail set =/. Flygon-Borderline imo,Do not get me wrong he probably is good,but ive never understood why he is classified as a standard,he just doesnt seem good enough to be classified as such. Vigoroth-He has the stats and moves to be considerd Underused imo. Roselia-Neverused,did you guys forget to add this or somthing? Lanturn-Borderline,the abilty to boltbeam of decent sp atk and the abilty to counter bolt(absorb)/beam/bulkywaters make its worthy of boderline. Raichu-Honestly,i think this guy is bl. It has a very good movepool espcially with its type(electric),and it has the stats to make use of it. Butterfree-Come on now,its clear that it is a neverused pogey. I wil let you know when i think more.