np: RU Stage 3 - Like a Boss

[Oglemi*]

Hi peeps one and all, welcome to the third stage of RU Suspect Testing! SmashPassing got the boot out of the tier, and Honchkrow seems like a contentious Pokemon in the tier now.

Who's going to rise to the top this round? Will the gangsta crow take the tier for itself? Or will Gallade rise to the top as the righteous (and maybe broken) hero and liberator of RU? Will sun and rain make a comeback again? And how will Gorebyss, Huntail, and Smeagle fare without SmashPass in their arsenal? I'm excited!

This Stage will end on December 12, at 11:59 pm EST at which time the voters will be revealed and the suspects will be determined, with voting taking place on that Friday.

Keep the discussion civil and remember that you can become a member of the Council by making great posts here, so get cracking!

[waterwarrior]

SmashPass into the Sun! (Like a boss)
Now I'm bannnnnnnned! (Like a boss)

To be honest, I can't say I'll miss it. Given a bunch of people on the top of the ladder used it, it really was not overly common. I'm just happy we have a completely balanced meta now, saying as Lilligant had that pretty funny unanimous "do not ban" and Honchkrow was also deemed not broken.

I see Gorebyss and Huntail going back to sweeping (and a giant drop in usage). Smeargle will just have to be happy with passing Quiver Dance.
I don't see Honchkrow or Gallade taking complete control. In fact, I'm not sure much will change at all this round, as the only ban only makes their sweeps a little harder, and they weren't exactly kept down by SmashPass anyways.

[steelguttey]

NO MORE SMASH PASS HALLELUJAH

This metagame will be a lot easier now, and I think we got a balanced metagame at this point, and yeah, Gorebyss will go back into sweeping now.

[Spork]

IMO gorebyss needs to be taken more seriously as a sweeper. it's ridiculously strong.

[Omicron]

To be honest I never really used Baton Pass on Gorebyss, I usually ended up sweeping with it unless I ran into something that resists Water / Ice (bulky water-types), and that was probably the only time I ever used Baton Pass. Shell Smash still makes Gorebyss a very dangerous threat, as it can now forego Baton Pass for a third coverage move (most likely Hidden Power Grass to hit those damn bulky Water-types). Smeargle, on the other hand, is completely neutered by the SmashPass ban as its only role was to Baton Pass Shell Smash. Smeargle will now have to settle for passing Quiver Dance or Shift Gear boosts. At least it still gets Spore... lol.

Anyways, as for the new metagame, I'm more interested in the effectiveness of weather. From my experience, I've never really had problems with Rain, but that may just be how I build my teams or something. Sun is similar, though I feel like it is slightly more threatening because of things like Moltres, Charizard, and Sawsbuck. Hail, on the other hand, is a very interesting thought. In fact, out of all the weather teams that I've lost to, hail is usually the one that beats me. A well-constructed hail team can wreak havoc, especially as it is a playstyle that is so underused (and underrated imo). With things like Glaceon and Rotom-F to abuse the Hail, it is a playstyle full of potential, which is why I intend to attempt at creating a successful hail team for this round.

Thoughts?

[Keiran]

Hot diggity dayum.

I'm excited for a smashpass-less metagame, Honchkrow in my opinion should still gtfo, "Nothing" truly counters it, Even if MixKrow isn't that common.

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Steelix is never OHKO'd by Honchkrow :3

But yeah, if it runs MixKrow its sacrificing what makes it able to sweep and you should only ever lose one Pokemon to MixKrow at worst.

[EonADS]

Hail is the only mentionable thing in my opinion. Well-built Hail teams wreak obscene amounts of havoc, especially when you have powerful Blizzard spammers like Glaceon and Rotom-F running around. It basically forces me to run either Slowking, Lanturn, or Cryogonal on all of my teams. It isn't really broken, but it is difficult to work around.

Don't even get me started on Honchkrow and Lilligant. Neither of them need to be banned. Lilligant has counters and a lot of checks, and it is hard countered by Sap Sipper Bouffalant. Honchkrow has a small number of counters for every set it runs and a plethora checks for all of them. Just leave it alone in my opinion.

[Omicron]

Even Slowking gets 2HKOed by Specs Blizzard from Glaceon with 2 layers of spikes and Stealth Rock iirc. Blizzspam teams can be very effective. Another thing to note about Glaceon is that it will never be OHKOed by a non-super effective attack thanks to its (actually quite) decent bulk. Rotom-F's STAB is near-unresisted in RU, with the exception of Lanturn and (lol) Shedinja.

With regards to Honchkrow, it is simply too slow for it to be a "broken" threat imo. Base 70 Speed is remarkable slow, and faster Pokemon can work around Sucker Punch with Substitute or priority (think, Swellow's Quick Attack, etc). Lilligant has a full stop in the form of Bouffalant, and it can't do much to Steel-types or Fire-types depending on the Hidden Power type. I would say that it's easier to deal with than Honchkrow, but Honchkrow still isn't broken. Moxie is good, yes, but forces it to give up Heatwave / Superpower, making Steel-types amazing counters to any Moxiekrow variant. Mixkrow is slightly more threatening, but like I said before, is too slow to pull off an entire sweep, especially since it doesn't have Moxie to boost its Attack after every KO.

[EonADS]

^ You're forgetting Magneton, actually. And Rotom-F itself, lol.

Agreeing with all that. Not to mention that, before it gets a boost, the Moxie SubRoost set of Honchkrow isn't actually that threatening. In at least half my matches with Moxie Honchkrow it has been sitting on the sidelines without managing any KOs because of bulky opponents stopping it cold or by skillful playing on my opponent's part. Yeah, it's strong and can potentially crush the whole metagame with Steelix and Klingklang removed, but it's nowhere near broken.

God damn, Smogon PO needs to get back up and running. I can't wait to test my new team for this round. This actually looks like it'll be fun.

[Furosuto]

I've seen more entei's than lilligants and honchkrows put together. Lilligant can get walled by sap sipper mons, unaware quag, and honch is aforementioned slower. He's slower than braviary for crying out loud! Even with STAB sucker punch, that's all he could do to someone faster, and if they survive, things can look bleak for honch.

[EonADS]

Lilligant can get walled by sap sipper mons, unaware quag

The hell are you smoking? +0 Petal Dance OHKO says hi.

I've also seen more of Entei than Lilligant, but Honchkrow is pretty common. I can understand why, Entei is a fantastic Pokemon in the current metagame, and it gets great synergy with teams of all kinds depending on what set you use.

The best thing is that he checks some of the biggest threats in the metagame all at once. Honch gets prioritized by E-Speed. Lilligant despises the SubCM set and the Physical set both, especially after the Sleep Clause is in play. Hail teams really hate Entei's Fire-type STAB and its powerful Extremespeed picking off its Scarfed Blizzard spammers.

[Omicron]

Actually, Magneton and Rotom-F don't matter since they are 2HKOed by Glaceon's Choice Specs Blizzard anyway (even Eviolite Magneton with 252 HP EVs it does 47.37% - 55.92%, a good chance for a 2HKO). Who runs a hail team without Glaceon and Rotom-F anyway? Entei's ExtremeSpeed does around 47%-53%, and it is easy to deal with Entei through the other teammates. Qwilfish and Poliwrath are great teammates that come to mind.

hailhailhail :D

[EonADS]

^ I wasn't talking about Hail counters, I meant stuff that resists BoltBlizzard. I know neither one of them is an acceptable Hail Counter.

And that's why I always pair Entei with Grass-types. Preferably Sceptile, but there are other good ones too.

Eviolite Munchlax does a decent job of stopping Glaceon and Rotom-F, but it really isn't that common. Not to mention that it can't do much to them in return and the lack of healing really sucks. Cryogonal is hands-down the best counter to Hail teams. Shame it's outclassed elsewhere, but at least it's usable.

Anyone want to get on PO and do a few battles in RU on one of the other servers? Might be nice to get some practice in before the round truly gets underway.

[kniteowl]

Thank God... i mean the the (Jedi) Council for banning Smash Pass and keeping the abusers like Smeargle.

How I can build a hail team without worrying about smash smash, I used to counter smash pass with Blastoise on my hail team but then it moved to UU.

Can't wait to use Duosion in the hail again, it's the only time i use it, in hail because of hail immunity and fighting resist, Claydol works well too, Rock and Fighting resist. now all I need is a Fire and Steel resist, maybe Slowking but then I have too many Psychics lol... I miss you Blastoise.

[lars]

Originally Posted by Fat EonADS

The hell are you smoking? +0 Petal Dance OHKO says hi.

It must have been strong. (Petal Dance overkill too. Neutral natured Lilli with 0 evs Giga drain has a chance of the OHKO on a Calm 252/252 quag...)

Originally Posted by Fat EonADS

I've also seen more of Entei than Lilligant, but Honchkrow is pretty common. I can understand why, Entei is a fantastic Pokemon in the current metagame, and it gets great synergy with teams of all kinds depending on what set you use.

Entei is beast no doubt. Choice Band (and Life Orb) physical attacker are arguably his best sets, but the ability to throw an Extreme Speed onto really any set will keep him from being 100% Out Classed on really anything he wants to run.

[Honko]

Swords Dance Feraligatr. Use it. It's surprisingly bulky, and outside of Tangrowth and Sceptile there really isn't much that can stop it. Lay some hazards to rack up a bit of residual damage, get rid of the opponent's Grass-types, and let Feraligatr wipe everything else out.

Also, more people should use Life Orb Krookodile. Choice Scarf sucks.

[Furosuto]

Originally Posted by Fat EonADS

The hell are you smoking? +0 Petal Dance OHKO says hi.

I've also seen more of Entei than Lilligant, but Honchkrow is pretty common. I can understand why, Entei is a fantastic Pokemon in the current metagame, and it gets great synergy with teams of all kinds depending on what set you use.

The best thing is that he checks some of the biggest threats in the metagame all at once. Honch gets prioritized by E-Speed. Lilligant despises the SubCM set and the Physical set both, especially after the Sleep Clause is in play. Hail teams really hate Entei's Fire-type STAB and its powerful Extremespeed picking off its Scarfed Blizzard spammers.

Sorry, I should have put unaware quag in a different list.

What I meant to say was that unaware quag can get rid of all of the quiver dance boosts that lilligant gets to tick off the opponent.

But why would you use petal dance when you can use giga drain? Getting confused is no fun, you don't get recovery from damage, and you're locked into one move. All it has over gigadrain is power. It just seems like a weird replacement for a grass type attack.

[waterwarrior]

Originally Posted by Fat Master Win

What I meant to say was that unaware quag can get rid of all of the quiver dance boosts that lilligant gets to tick off the opponent.

But why would you use petal dance when you can use giga drain?.

1. And then the boosts go right back after Quaggy is easily disposed of
2. Lilligant has Own Tempo. I don't think I need to expand further than that.

[lars]

-Edit- ^ Ninja'd

Originally Posted by Fat Master Win

Sorry, I should have put unaware quag in a different list.

What I meant to say was that unaware quag can get rid of all of the quiver dance boosts that lilligant gets to tick off the opponent.

But why would you use petal dance when you can use giga drain? Getting confused is no fun, you don't get recovery from damage, and you're locked into one move. All it has over gigadrain is power. It just seems like a weird replacement for a grass type attack.

-I mean this in the nicest way possible, but make sure you know what you are talking about.

Some of the biggest draws of Lilligant: A Booster that can beat Unaware Quag with out trying and access to a confusion free Petal Dance via Own Tempo.

I would also generally use Giga Drain over Petal Dance because I've always been a fan of Health Drain moves, but it's a given that Own Tempo will be chosen when using Petal Dance. Yes, all it has over Giga Drain is power, but 120 BP vs 75 makes a compelling argument any day.

[Amarillo]

Despite the fact that I was the only one who voted no to smashpass ban, I can't say I'll miss the strategy. Looks to be the same old, same old great RU!

@Master Win: Lilli also has access to Own Tempo, which immediately removes the confusion. It can be troublesome if your team depends on something like Slowking taking the +1 Giga Drain and Thunder Waving for the cripple, but it really won't help in other situations.

Also, Gligar is actually amazing, as is Qwilfish. They are arguably the biggest roadblocks (along with tangrowth) to a lot of physical sweepers. Qwilfish has already caught on wildly, so I'm mainly just advertising about Gligar, I guess. I've seen Nails use Gligar successfully, and I've also been inspired by his team to use him. It's really good and it deserves more usage. It's a great check to a lot of vicious physical attackers such as Aggron, Honchkrow (one of the only 'true' safe switch-ins to both sets), Ice Punch-less Gallade, Swellow, etc. and the list just goes on.

[kniteowl]

Originally Posted by Fat Amarilloo

Also, Gligar is actually amazing, as is Qwilfish. They are arguably the biggest roadblocks (along with tangrowth) to a lot of physical sweepers. Qwilfish has already caught on wildly, so I'm mainly just advertising about Gligar, I guess. I've seen Nails use Gligar successfully, and I've also been inspired by his team to use him. It's really good and it deserves more usage. It's a great check to a lot of vicious physical attackers such as Aggron, Honchkrow (one of the only 'true' safe switch-ins to both sets), Ice Punch-less Gallade, Swellow, etc. and the list just goes on.

What Gligar set are you using?

Back in early RU i Would use a set like Stealth rock, Roost, Toxic and Earthquake.

If Gligar doesn't have an attacking move besides Earthquake, Honchkrow with a Substitute laughs at Gligar because it can't do anything to it, not to mention super luck giving Honchkrow a random citicial hit to dispose of gligar, although most of the honchkorws I was facing at the time was Mixkrow, I'm not sure Moxiekorw was available back then.

[lars]

Amarillo is probably talking about the physical wall which would use more or less the same set you mentioned.

Generally the "most fearsome" Honchkrow set is Moxiekrow. While Gligar can't do anything directly to Honch, he can stall him out due to L.O. recoil. (The item of choice on Moxiekrow) I haven't done any calcs, but BB would be the best Honch can do (also contributing heavy recoil) and I don't think it 2HKOs. It's going to be a losing battle and Honchkrow will likely be switching out

Originally Posted by Fat kniteowl

If Gligar doesn't have an attacking move besides Earthquake, Honchkrow with a Substitute laughs at Gligar because it can't do anything to it

True, but Gligar is laughing too and he's probably laughing harder.


Edit Did some calcs... SubRoost sets might be able to go head to head with Gligar and come out victorious a fair amount of the time as Brave Bird will be doing 38-45% and Gligar will have to Roost every turn and Roost has less pp than BB.

Also, as if anyone needed reminding of the Moxiekrow power, a +1 Brave Bird will be a 2HKO (57-67%). Gligar should still be able to come out on top most of the time as long as he doesn't switch into a BB and Honch doesn't have Roost

[Twannes]

Yea, i have been testing the combination of Gligar and Munclhax in R2 and it should work well in R3 as well, seeing that only smashpass got the hammer. I see it like a Gliscor/Chansey for RU. It stops most common treats bar lilligant (bouff sais hi) and can force a lot of switches. Pair this with hazards and we might have a stall team coming lol ;)

[SJCrew]

Sorry Lars, but almost every Honch I've seen on ladder was a Sub/Roost variant and those absolutely destroy Gligar. How is Gligar 'laughing harder' when you admitted it can't even break Honch's Sub? That is the definition of setup bait. When Honch finally gets to KO your Gligar, he's at +1 and still behind a Sub, ready to destroy the rest of your team. You'll need a better answer to him than that.