np: UU Stage 5 - Every Rose Has Its Thorns

[MegaKick]

brongzong is so good on paper but does really bad in practice - it can wall a lot of stuff, sure, but other than screens (and im not running screens + shell smash cause thats no fun to win with) he just sits there, and with no recovery he gets weared down really fast and soon stuff he was supposed to wall breaks right through him. At least registeel can paralize and flinch hax with iron head.
More people need to be using swampert offensively, its stats and typing are much more suited to bulky offense than defensive wall. Hitting roserade switchins that expect to take boiling water or even a weak ice beam and heal with giga drain get wrecked by CB earthquake
Also, while not as good as LO roserade for the most part, i really like calm max s.def/max sp.att roserade with giga drain, synthesis, spikes and sludge bomb. excellent bulky water counter and can really stay alive for a while with giga drain + synthesis. i honestly prefer synthesis > rest cause recovery or not rose wrecks sand teams
so yeah just my 2 cents

[bygbyrd]

Spikes are definently a huge part of the meta right now. Spikes have the effect of really making you pay for a miss-play/overprediction. A failed double switch could cost two of your pokes about 30% of their hp. I still feel like people should just give some time to adjust, however. Put your thinking caps on, and just like in every other round, play around with some ways to better handle this Spikes-crazy meta. The meta is great right now and as FlareBlitz brought up, Spikes aren't breaking the meta like Staraptor or Drought were.

[WinstonShnozwick]

Against the speedy sand sweepers like Stoutland and Omystar, I have my own little saving grace. Granted, I need to activate unburdan prior to, but if I see a team with one of those fast sweepers, I get Sceptile out early, SD up, and acrogem. 700+ speed stops those fast pokemon in their tracks. Also, Sceptile is pretty amazing. Bronzong is a new counter for him, sadly, but he just kills so many things if you give him even 1 free SD.

[Mew]

I've been utilizing Bronzong in a very fun way lately, more of a viable gimmick actually. Guys, think of other ways to use these defensive behemoths!

Sandstorm really pisses me off.. If you don't have something that can counter Stoutland, you're screwed. It really takes at least one moveslot to not get overrun by sandstorm. Even Hippopotas is a good pokemon in this metagame. Still looking for the right balance between defensive pokes, offensive ones and things that can take sandstorm.

Although my previous argument is that sandstorm has to be prepared for, I also think that if you do have only 1 slot dedicated to taking sandstorm, you pretty much got the game.

[Machi]

Originally Posted by Fat Banedon

As for the politics, did you see people saying things like "LOL WHY IS THIS GUY ON THE SENATE, HE BASICALLY SAID YOU GUYS ARE ALL NOOBS THATS WHY DEOXYS-S IS OU"? I've also seen things like people trashtalking some of my posts when they thought I wasn't there. I don't like it, but w/e.

You know you may want to actually get the full side of the story before insinuating this considering that when they do trash talk a fellow senate member and such it tends to be a joke or their familiarity - least that is how I see it tends to be during the times I've joined. So I'd really be careful about such allegations - other than this is rather off topic.

Originally Posted by Fat MegaKick

brongzong is so good on paper but does really bad in practice - it can wall a lot of stuff, sure, but other than screens (and im not running screens + shell smash cause thats no fun to win with) he just sits there, and with no recovery he gets weared down really fast and soon stuff he was supposed to wall breaks right through him.

I'm having similar experience with Bronzong as well - while yes I do agree that he can catch things off guard should it opt to go the offensive route (I've used it for TR) and net some pretty neat OHKOes. I do find it somewhat difficult to keep alive with its lack of recovery as well as being easily forced out by Zapdos+fire types (assuming said fire types weren't baited into an EQ). I would want to try running Heatproof as a surprise to those fire types but given prevalence of hazards its not something I'd try. Either way as good as it can be against hail and sand I'm not seeing it as too game changing to warrant a retest - even with the disappearance of Mamoswine - since UU hail was generally Aboma/Lass/Swine/3 things that cover short comings there are certainly still other viable members who could deal with Empoleon/Snorlax (i.e. Hitmontop who was relatively common in hail teams anyways and has the utility of spinning) while bulky waters are dealt with by Aboma/Snover. I'm not seeing much of a change with hail even with the absence of Swine and the addition of Bronzong (who will still get worn down by hail+blizzard as it lack recovery) only thing is I'd see Empoleon rather gaining more utility as a hail counter than Bronzong IMO thanks to the x4 resist+phazing/Flash canon+SR.

[shrang]

I'm really surprised and some-what facepalming over the number of Heatproof Bronzongs I'm seeing. I roll my eyes every time my Azelf does 30% to Bronzong because I'm just like "lol another fool using Heatproof Bronzong". I mean seriously, the whole tier is crying over Spikes and you don't run Levitate on probably one of the better tanks in the metagame? What is this madness?

[Sabinfrost]

Spikes are not broken... That's what spinners are for, seriously, I know Donphan is gone but they still exist.

Roserade seems to be most peoples underlying issue, not Spikes, if you want to start anywhere, think of banning her.

Froslass is Froslass, no where near as bad now hail is gone.

Deo - D is one of the biggest walls in the tier, with Chansey gone, he's top of the pecking order along with Registeel. While personally, Deo - D annoys the hell out of me, I don't think he's broken, the UU we're playing has enough bad-boys around to handle him. Popular sweepers/wall-breakers like Mismagius and Herracross shut him down. He may go however purely on the basis of OU using him a lot more now that Deo - S is gone.

Don't try banning Spikes, please.

[DestinyUnknown]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

I'm really surprised and some-what facepalming over the number of Heatproof Bronzongs I'm seeing. I roll my eyes every time my Azelf does 30% to Bronzong because I'm just like "lol another fool using Heatproof Bronzong". I mean seriously, the whole tier is crying over Spikes and you don't run Levitate on probably one of the better tanks in the metagame? What is this madness?

LOL, that has happen to me too, but dealing 30% with LO Zapdos Heat Wave. I found it even funnier when i got on the field my Flygon or Krookodile against bronzong in the same battle, and they just stay there like if I was a moron or something (i have lost the count of how many Bronzong i have killed with EQ)

[TM13IceBeam]

what the hell does heatproof bronzong do anyway, the only reason you really use it is on a gravity team ._.

[CrazyBacon]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

what the hell does heatproof bronzong do anyway, the only reason you really use it is on a gravity team ._.

I think the idea is to not make you so vulnerable to mons like victini/Darmanitan who will destroy you with their fire type moves, and you can only switch to your bulky water so many times before it crumbles and as everyone assumes people run levitate so it works.... except it doesn't. Tbh you're better using EQ on the predicted switch and crippling them.

[casey90]

So, as promised I'll be presenting my findings for why I believe Roserade to be BL. I understand that my opinion is no more than just that. Onto the explanation, I believe that roserade isn't broken in either the traditional "support" or "offensive" characteristics, but more of a hybrid between the two.

From a support end Rose provides the invaluable and controversial Spikes. The less valuable Toxic Spikes, and is probably the best bulky water switchin in the tier. I believe the latter is especially important due to the overwhelmingly powerful fire types in the tier, such as Chandelure and Darmanitan, who love to have a near perfect switchin to their greatest foes. Complexities arise when judging the proper course of action, as your snorlax may have seemed a great switch, except that Rose has gotten up a layer of spikes on your switch and is prepping to leech seed you.

The offensive end of Roserade however, is far more cunning. Roserade can't quite sweep through a significant portion of the metagame like staraptor, or kyurem could, but Roserade has more devious way around it's foes. The most dangerous is the fact that Roserade has the option to nearly guarantee one of it's counters is forever removed from the match with sleep powder. This means that you need to have >90 base speed to even have a chance at beating Rose (or use the items choice scarf or lum berry). The only saving grace is the 75% accuracy of sleep powder. Unlike other users of sleep powder Roserade doesn't need a boost to deal heavy damage. Something that Tangrowth, Victreebel, and Venomoth all have in common. Roserade, from an offensive standpoint, only needs ONE set to effectively threaten the entire metagame, and have the ability to easily cripple/KO 2 pokemon on an opponents team ON THE FIRST SWITCHIN, prediction notwithstanding. This one set is as follows…

Roserade@ Life Orb
Timid Nature
252 Sp. Att. 252 Speed 4 whatever
~Sleep Powder
~Sludge Bomb
~Leaf Storm
~Rest

Below is a list of damage calculations of this set against the entire UU tier. I'll abbreviate Sludge bomb and Leaf storm.

...

---

Standard Ambipom vs. SB 90%-106.2% (KO with rocks)

0HP Ambipom vs. LS 100% KO

0HP Arcanine vs. SB 69.5%-82.2% (about 50% chance to ko with rocks)
0HP Arcanine vs. LS 54.2%-63.9% (KO'd with two switchins to rocks)

252HP 252SP. DEF +nature Arcanine vs. SB 40.1%-47.7% (2HKO with rocks,
arcanine has a VERY small chance to survive factoring in lefties)
252HP 252SP. DEF +nature Arcanine vs. LS 31.3%-36.7%

0HP Azelf vs. SB 87.3%-102.7% (like 98% chance to KO with Rocks)
0HP Azelf vs. LS 100% KO

252HP Azelf vs. SB 70.3%-83.1%
252HP azelf vs. LS 100% KO

252HP Azumarill vs. SB 55.2%-65.3%
252HP Azumarill vs. LS 100% KO

252HP Bisharp vs. LS 58.1%-68.3% (can still be outsped and slept)

252HP Blastoise vs. SB 49.2%-58.3%
252HP Blastoise vs. LS 100% KO

252HP 92SP. Def. +nature Bronzong vs. LS 31.7-37.3 (a HUUUGE sleep target)

0HP Chandelure vs. SB 39.1%-46%
0HP Chandelure vs. LS 60.2%-71.3% (2hko with SB-LS or LS-LS after rocks)

252HP Chandelure vs. SB 31.5%-37%
252HP Chandelure vs. LS 48.5%-57.4% (about 90% chance to ko with SB-LS after rocks factoring in lefties)

0HP Cobalion vs. LS 58.8%-69.3% (solid check but at a high cost)

164HP Crobat vs. SB 31.5%-37.2%
164HP Crobat vs. LS 24.7%-29% (probably the best counter but takes about fifty percent with rocks to switch in ONCE)

0HP Crobat vs. SB 35.7%-42.1% (the only ever crobat I ever see without bulk is CB and it's more likely to lose to Rose throughout the match)
0HP Crobat vs. LS 28%-32.8%

0HP Darmanitan vs. LS 66.4% 78.3% (ko'd with rocks and spikes, possible KO with rocks)
0HP Darmanitan vs. SB 86%-101.4%

252HP Deoxys-D vs. SB 40.8%-48.4%
252HP Deoxyd-D vs. LS 63.5%-75% (SB-LS ko's 100% w/ rocks LS-LS w/ rocks and spikes)

252HP 252 Sp. Def. +nature Deoxys-D vs. SB 31.6%-37.5%
252HP 252 Sp. Def. +nature Deoxys-D vs. LS 49.3%-58.2% (about 90% chance for SB-LS to KO w/ Rocks and Spikes factoring in lefties)

252HP Dusclops w/ Eviolite vs. SB 17.6%-20.8%
252HP Dusclops w/ Eviolite vs. LS 54.2%-64.4% (about 60% chance for LS-LS to KO with rocks 100% with rocks and spikes)

252HP 252 Sp. Def. +nature Dusclops w/ Eviolite vs. SB 13%-15.5%
252HP 252 Sp. Def. +nature Dusclops w/ Eviolite vs. LS 41.2%-48.6% (needs full layers to guarantee LS-LS will KO)

252HP Empoleon vs. LS 77.4%-91.1%
252HP 252 Sp. Def. vs. LS 55.1-65.3% (about 50% chance for LS-LS to 2hKO with rocks and 1 spikes)

252HP Escavalier vs. LS 18.8%-23.8% (needs sleep to beat, Lum berry hard counters this set)

0HP Flygon vs. SB 36.9%-43.5%
0HP Flygon vs. LS 100% KO

252HP Froslass vs. SB 36%-42.7%
252HP Froslass vs. LS 100% KO

0HP Heracross vs. SB 64.6%-75.8% (can limit to one switchin with a layer of spikes and rocks)
0HP Heracross vs. LS 49.7%-58.6%

252HP Hippopotas w/ Eviolite vs. SB 35.9%-42.4%
252HP Hippopotas w/ Eviolite vs. LS 100% KO

252HP Hitmontop vs. SB 56.6%-67.1%
252HP Hitmontop vs. LS 87.8%-103.6% (about 50% chance to KO with rocks)

0HP Houndoom vs. SB 76.6%-90.7%
0HP Houndoom vs. LS 59.8%-67% (100% KO with Rocks + 2 Spikes)

0HP Kingdra vs. SB 66.8%-78.4%
0Hp Kingdra vs. LS 100% KO

252HP 40 Sp. Def. Kingdra vs. SB 56.9%-67%
252HP 40 Sp. Def. Kingdra vs. LS 88.1%-104%

0HP Krookodile vs. SB 37.5%-44.4%
0HP Krookodile vs. LS 100% KO

252HP Machamp vs. SB 55.7%-65.9%
252HP Machamp vs. LS 86.2%-101.8% (roughly 45% chance to KO with rocks)

0HP Mew vs. SB 54.5%-64.2%
0HP Mew vs. LS 84.5%-99.7%

252HP Mew vs. SB 46-54.2%
252HP Mew vs. LS 71.3%-84.2%

252HP 56 Sp. Def. +nature Milotic vs. SB 33.8%-39.8%
252HP 56 Sp. Def. +nature Milotic vs. LS 100% KO

0HP Mismagius vs. SB 34%-40.1%
0HP Mismagius vs. LS 100% KO

252HP Mismagius vs. SB 27.5%-32.4%
252HP Mismagius vs. LS 85.5%-100.9% (like 15% chance to survive w/ rocks)

0HP Nidoking vs. SB 21.5%-25.4%
0HP Nidoking vs. LS 100% KO

252HP Nidoqueen vs. SB 13.5%-16.1%
252HP Nidoqueen vs. LS 85.9%-101.6%

252HP Porygon 2 w/ Eviolite vs. SB 34.5%-40.9%
252HP Porygon 2 w/ Eviolite vs. LS 53.7%-63.4% (SB-LS KO's w/ Rocks LS-LS KO's with rocks + 1 spikes)

252HP 252 Sp. Def. +nature Porygon 2 w/ Eviolite vs. SB 24.9%-29.7%
252HP 252 Sp. Def. +nature Porygon 2 w/ Eviolite vs. LS 38.5%-45.7% (big sleep target)

0HP Raikou vs. SB 57.8%-68%
0HP Raikou vs. LS 89.4%-105.6%

128HP Raikou vs. SB 52.7%-62%
128HP Raikou vs. LS 81.6%-96.3%

252HP 252 Sp. Def. Registeel vs. LS 21.4%-25.5% (another huge sleep target)

Rhyperior…..do I even need to bother?
fun fact though 252HP 252 Sp. Def. Rhyperior under sandstorm with a rindo berry survives LS and can KO back with EQ, not practical but it IS hilarious when you do that to someone.

0HP Roserade vs. SB 67.9%-80.5%
0HP Roserade vs. LS 26.3%-30.9%

252HP 136 Sp. Def. +nature Roserade vs. SB 44.4%-52% (about 60% chance for SB-SB to 2hko with rocks)
252HP 136 Sp. Def. +nature Roserade vs. LS 17%-20.1%

0HP Rotom-H vs. SB 72.2%-85.5%
0HP Rotom-H vs. LS 56%-66.4%

252HP 252 Sp. Def. +nature Rotom-H vs. SB 41.8%-49.3%
252HP 252 Sp. Def. +nature Rotom-H vs. LS 32.9%-38.8%

252HP 124 Sp. Def. +nature Sableye vs. SB 33.6%-39.5%
252HP 124 Sp. Def. +nature Sableye vs. LS 100% KO

0HP Shaymin vs. SB 100% KO
0HP Shaymin vs. LS 42.2%-49.9%

252HP Shaymin vs. SB 92.1%-108.4%
252HP Shaymin vs. LS 35.6%-42.1%

252Hp Slowbro vs. SB 56.3%-66.5%
252HP Slowbro vs. LS 100% KO (even at +1)

252HP 252Sp. Def. +nature Snorlax vs. SB 24.2%-28.6%
252HP 252SP. Def. +nature Snorlax vs. LS 37.2%-44.1% (sleep target)

252Sp. Def Snorlax vs. SB 29.9%-35.4%
252SP. Def Snorlax vs. LS 46.6%-54.9% (has about 50% chance to KO w/rocks and 1 spikes)

0HP Stoutland vs. SB 65.6%-77.5%
0Hp Stoutland vs. LS 100% KO

252HP Suicune vs. SB 41.1%-48.5%
252HP Suicune vs. LS 100% KO (+1 takes 84.7-100%)

252HP Swampert vs. SB 25.2-29.7%
252HP Swampert vs. LS 100% KO

252HP 200 Sp. Def. +nature Togekiss vs. SB 34%-40.4% (counting the 30% chance to poison from sludge bomb, it has about 30% chance for SB-SB to KO after rocks factoring in leftovers)
252HP 200 Sp. Def. +nature Togekiss vs. LS 26.8%-31.3%

252HP Togekiss vs. SB 44.4%-52.4%
252HP Togekiss vs. LS 30.6%-34.2%

252HP 252Sp. Def. +nature Umbreon vs. SB 28.2%-33.5%
252HP 252Sp. Def. +nature Umbreon vs. LS 44.2%-52% (solid check, another sleep target)

0HP Victini vs. SB 54.5%-64.2% (w/ rocks Victini only gets one switchin)
0HP Victini vs. LS 42.2%-50.1%

0HP Weavile vs. SB 76.2%-90%
0Hp Weavile vs. LS 100% KO

252HP 252Sp. Def. +nature Xatu vs. SB 50.3%-59.3%
252HP 252Sp. Def. +nature Xatu vs. LS 38.9%-45.8%

252HP Xatu vs. SB 74.6%-88%
252HP Xatu vs. LS 58.1%-68.3%

0HP Zapdos vs. SB 63.6%-75.1%
0Hp Zapdos vs. LS 49.2%-57.9%

252HP Zapdos vs. SB 53.1%-62.8%
252HP Zapdos vs. LS 41.1%-48.4%

252Hp 252Sp. Def. +nature Zapdos vs. SB 37.5%-44.5%
252Hp 252Sp. Def. +nature Zapdos vs. LS 28.9%-34.4% (around 50% chance for SB-SB to KO after rocks)

0Hp Zoroark vs. SB 100% KO
0HP Zoroark vs. LS 100% KO

So as you can see Roserade has very few "safe" switchins. The best is by far Crobat, who can completely shut down Rose with taunt and roost or outright KO with Brave Bird. Escavalier with Lum berry also hard counters this set, provided he doesn't switch in on sleep powder, as he has wasted his surprise. Now If you'll notice rocks alone make many of these pokemon fall to the onslaught, and many more still are limited to switching in ONCE for ONE attack in a match. Add Spikes into the mix, and half those switching fall into one of the above categories.

Now, seeing as we are stuck with the Rose for at least a while, what ways can we adapt and limit it's ability to threaten the meta?

[Sabinfrost]

Originally Posted by Fat casey90

Now, seeing as we are stuck with the Rose for at least a while, what ways can we adapt and limit it's ability to threaten the meta?

Watch as everyone runs Bronzong with Psyshock or Registeel just to shut it down... oh wait, they already are. In 4th Gen OU Snorlax was a good check to offensive sets, it still is, unfortunately it does little against the hazards sets. Perhaps Boufallant will see a spike in usage as it can switch into Sleep Powder and force it out.

[TLCJR4LIFE]

So wait, the idea is to assume that everyone is retarded and doesn't use prediction and reasoning to determine what the best switch in is at the moment?

Why use Roserade? Pretty sure there are a dozen more pokemon you could've used that would have better damage calcs then that.

[D4RR3N]

Originally Posted by Fat TLCJR4LIFE

Why use Roserade? Pretty sure there are a dozen more pokemon you could've used that would have better damage calcs then that.

...

[skymastergamerpt]

Roserade?! Sorry to disagree with you but I don't think Roserade is bracking too much the UU tier. Now looking at youre set:

Well there are two very good counters for youre Roserade:

First there is Houndoom:

4 Sp.Atk life orb Houndoom Overheat vs 0hp/0 Sp Def Roserade 157.47% - 185.06% - That is almost two OHKO and this Houndoom will allwayas outspeed youre Roserade.

Even with - 2 Sp.Atk it gets 79.31 - 93.1% which in case if youre oppenent has any Hazards has a 37.5 % of OHKO youre Roserade.

If it has Fire Blast:

4 SpAtk Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs 0 HP/0 Sp.Def Roserade 135.63% - 159.77%

So in both case it will be a OHKO no matter what.

Then we have Weavile:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade : 101.15% - 119.54% - OHKO

In fact this Weavile won't even need Ice Shard if it has Ice Punch:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 187.36% - 220.69% - OHKO (in fact it would kill Roserade Twice)

And lastly a comparison with one of my own pokemon from my UU team:

252 Atk Choice Band Stoutland Fire Fang vs 0HP/0 Sp.Def Roserade - 120.31% -141.76% - OHKO and since I use Sand my Stoutland would outspeed you. Youre only hope would be a miss from me. So yeah Roserade is beaten. Does it deserve to be OU? No. Does it compete in OU? Absolutely. Does it break the UU metagame? No.

[TM13IceBeam]

This does not make sense. Does a Pokemon that has counters deserve to be banned? Kyogre is hard-countered by Gastrodon, should it be OU? Besides, those attacks are actually so predictable, you can swap into something else and win. CB Stoutland/LO Houndoom Fire Fang/Overheat? Send in Arcanine to tank the hit and force them out. You forget that NOBODY ever keeps Roserade in on Houndoom/Weavile/StoutlandInSand unless they are complete morons.

[DetroitLolcat]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

This does not make sense. Does a Pokemon that has counters deserve to be banned? Kyogre is hard-countered by Gastrodon, should it be OU? Besides, those attacks are actually so predictable, you can swap into something else and win. CB Stoutland/LO Houndoom Fire Fang/Overheat? Send in Arcanine to tank the hit and force them out. You forget that NOBODY ever keeps Roserade in on Houndoom/Weavile/StoutlandInSand unless they are complete morons.

All of those Pokemon can fire an 80 BP Pursuit at Roserade. With no bulk investment,

252 Attack Hasty LO Houndoom vs no bulk Roserade 80 BP Pursuit: 81% - 96%

252 Attack Jolly CB Weavile vs no bulk Roserade 80 BP Pursuit: 100% KO. If Weavile has Life Orb, 93% chance to OHKO

252 Attack Adamant CB Stoutland vs no bulk Roserade 80 BP Pursuit: 73% - 87%

With Life Orb, 63% - 75%


Some of these Pokemon that you mentioned that get 2HKO'd are both faster than Roserade and can have reliable recovery including Zapdos, and Mew, and a lot more are faster than Roserade and can just kill it. Secondly, Roserade needs to be able to switch in as well, which is no easy task for the frail flower.

Let's look at the Pokemon that Roserade can switch into. For convenience, I'll use casey90's list because it covers the major threats of UU:

Roserade stuff :D

---

Ambipom- lol

Arcanine- Roserade would do well not to switch into this.

Azelf- Good luck with that

Azumarill- Aqua Jet does 39.5% on average. Unless you're switching in on a predicted Superpower, Roserade would not want to switch into this.

Bisharp- Life Orbed Iron Head and Sucker Punch OHKO. Leftovers versions KO about 80% of the time with rocks.

Blastoise- Yes

Bronzong- Avoid Gyro Ball, then you can Sleep Powder it. After that, you're forced out.

Chandelure- maybe if you came in on a Pain Split lol

Cobalion- SD versions nuke it, CM versions will wall it/Taunt it/Substitute in its face

Crobat- Just no.

Darmanitan- I pity the fool who switches a Roserade into Darmanitan unless it's a Scarf Superpower or something lol

Deoxys-D- It might set up on you a little but you can switch into this. Unless you Sleep it it could wall you though.

Dusclops- You pretty much tie against RestTalk versions and beat the rest. Overall good switch-in

Empoleon- Defensive ones can Phaze you, Offensive ones can kill you. It's an okay switch-in but if it Agilities then well...

Escavalier- No. Roserade does not want to see this thing in its life

Flygon- No.

Froslass- It will just set up on you or kill you if you switch into Ice Beam. Pretty crappy switch-in but it can work

Heracross- No. Not even Scarf Close Combat. Just no.

Hippopotas- Yes but everything can switch into Hippopotas

Hitmontop- Yeah Roserade can switch into this most of the time.

Houndoom- No

Kingdra- DD Versions lol at you, Specs versions kill you. Unless you switch into a Specs Water attack. Overall bad switch-in unless you know the set and can predict well

Krookodile- Only +1 Pursuits. So 90% of the time no.

Machamp- If you can deal with confusion hax and don't switch into a Sub then yeah. I wouldn't do it though.

Mew- yeah good luck with that

Milotic- Don't switch into a phazing move and you're fine.

Mismagius- Support versions yes, attacking versions no

Nidoking- You'd need a really good predict

Nidoqueen- Yeah probably. Just avoid Ice Beam

Porygon2- Most of the time yeah. Not always, though.

Raikou- It can set up Sub and CM and then kill you. After Rocks and Lo recoil you're dead from +1 HP Ice

Registeel- You can sleep it, but afterwards you're not killing it.

Rhyperior- You can't switch into it, but it can't switch into you

Roserade- You can kill defensive ones. Offensive ones beat you with Sludge Bomb. It's a question of who comes in first

Rotom-H- It's either Volt Switching or Overheating. Neither of those help you.

Sableye- Yes.

Shaymin- It outspeeds and kills you. Even switching into Seed Flare puts you in KO range for Hidden Power

Slowbro- Don't switch into a Psychic attack and you're fine.

Snorlax-No.

Stoutland- Lol

Suicune- Yes

Swampert- Now that they usually run max Attack Adamant you really can't switch in easily like you used to be able to.

Togekiss- Only to Sleep it. Otherwise Air Slash will hurt.

Umbreon- You can switch into this.

Victini- lol

Weavile- lol

Xatu- No.

Zapdos- Only the Toxic set. The rest kill you.

Zoroark- No, but then again, Zoroark's a special case.

As you can see, Roserade has trouble switching into UU just like UU has trouble switching into Roserade. Because the best Roserade can do usually is revenge kill (in which case it's supposed to kill) and not sweep, I have trouble concluding that Roserade should be BL. I understand the argument that few Pokemon can switch into it, but I also must say that that argument goes both ways. Roserade has trouble getting into the battlefield without coming in off of a KO.

90 Speed is good in UU, but it's not great and it's what keeps Roserade from being a top-tier sweeper. Offensive Roserade is a great Pokemon in UU, but it requires expert prediction and often a KO to come in on. Otherwise, it can be OHKO'd easily by some of UU's top threats. It's not really fast and can't boost it's Speed easily, so I can't say it's good enough to be BL.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm talking about Life Orb Roserade only. This post is a response to casey90's only.

[kokoloko*]

lol, of course "Roserade can't switch into most of the viable pokemon in UU" but you can't look at it that way, because that's not how the game is played. You should be looking at something more along the lines of "how often can Roserade switch in?" - and for that, you need to look at the frequency with which the pokemon that it can come in on are used; i.e. how often are bulky waters/ghosts used in the metagame. Then you might get a clearer picture of Roserade's switch-in potential.

That doesn't even touch on the fact that your post completely ignores the Spikes set, which can switch into shit like Shaymin really easily and force it out while it Spikes.

Disclaimer: I haven't been keeping up with the thread, so if you've discussed that in an earlier post, or are purposely talking solely about LO Roserade, my bad.

I don't really wanna get dragged into this argument, but yeah... you're looking at it wrong.

[Ace Emerald]

@ Lolcat:
My problem with offensive Roserade is not that it can switch into many attacks, but that it makes KO'ing with anything slower than base 90 really impractical, as Roserade can then come in and threaten sleep, a Leaf Storm, or predict a coverage move. The Roserade user won't win the situation 100% of the time, but that pressure seems a little too easy and powerful to me. Heres a senario I've faced many times: Nidoking KOs something, Roserade is switched in, one pokemon gets put to sleep on the switch, I lose at least one pokemon, generally the sleeping one, I force Roserade out, and the situation can start all over again.

Just a note, 28/49 pokemon in UU have less than base 90 speed. This number is a little misleading as some commonly carry a scarf, but the point is that Roserade can outspeed and start threatening around half the tier.

[casey90]

@lolcat that pursuit point is actually really good, I was going to make it myself lol. anyway I think the thing is about the rose is that it can't switch in to much, but pokemon like Suicune, Milotic, Specs Kingdra, Sableye, Shaymin, Hitmontop, Blastoise, Slowbro, Shadow Ball Lass, Xatu, opposing defensive Rose and a few others I'm sure (I'm a little distracted atm with the Pats/Broncos game) are all generally great switchins for Rose, and the chances of an opponent packing one of these pokemon is quite high if you add it up. Offensive teams that love to shut it down can't switch in as sleep shuts down one poke, then a power attack can cripple/kill another (prediction goes both ways). Even if rose gets only one switchin it can consistently remove 1/3 of your team as serious threats with Rocks alone. Pursuit also is another thing that is supportive to the team, that's a free switch/set up for something else.

[skidilidy]

Originally Posted by Fat TLCJR4LIFE

So wait, the idea is to assume that everyone is retarded and doesn't use prediction and reasoning to determine what the best switch in is at the moment?

This is not the point of damage calcs. Damage calcs have always been used this way, to determine the damage output a certain Pokemon can have within a team. Prediction is always assumed in a game, did you ever think that the Roserade user could outpredict their opponent and use the proper attack on the switchin? Remember, Roserade can also always use Sleep Powder whenever they are not sure about a prediction.

[jamashawalker]

Originally Posted by Fat skymastergamerpt

Roserade?! Sorry to disagree with you but I don't think Roserade is bracking too much the UU tier. Now looking at youre set:

Well there are two very good counters for youre Roserade:

First there is Houndoom:

4 Sp.Atk life orb Houndoom Overheat vs 0hp/0 Sp Def Roserade 157.47% - 185.06% - That is almost two OHKO and this Houndoom will allwayas outspeed youre Roserade.

Even with - 2 Sp.Atk it gets 79.31 - 93.1% which in case if youre oppenent has any Hazards has a 37.5 % of OHKO youre Roserade.

If it has Fire Blast:

4 SpAtk Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs 0 HP/0 Sp.Def Roserade 135.63% - 159.77%

So in both case it will be a OHKO no matter what.

Then we have Weavile:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade : 101.15% - 119.54% - OHKO

In fact this Weavile won't even need Ice Shard if it has Ice Punch:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 187.36% - 220.69% - OHKO (in fact it would kill Roserade Twice)

And lastly a comparison with one of my own pokemon from my UU team:

252 Atk Choice Band Stoutland Fire Fang vs 0HP/0 Sp.Def Roserade - 120.31% -141.76% - OHKO and since I use Sand my Stoutland would outspeed you. Youre only hope would be a miss from me. So yeah Roserade is beaten. Does it deserve to be OU? No. Does it compete in OU? Absolutely. Does it break the UU metagame? No.

All of those are only revenge killing and by no mean serve the word "counter". None would even think about switching into Roserade after SR. There are tons of others who Revenge kill roserade than those.

With all this talk about how powerful offensive roserade is there are far
better offensive pokes out there right now that threaten MOST of the tier and are more powerful than offensive roserade, especially since chansey is gone.
Just naming a few: Yanmega, Moltres, Zapdos, Raikou, SD heracross, CB flygon, Venomoth.

Some of those sweepers are so overshadowed just because they dont have "sleep powder" which i'll admit thanks to this whole new sleep mechanics sleep powder is like borderline automatic freeze. But they are way more threatening than the offensive roserade set

[casey90]

Yanmega and Moltres both have massive stealth rock weaknesses, and have no move to threaten there counters outside of hidden power. They also don't switch in any better due to the Rock weakness compromising their bulk. CB flygon is a great pokemon, as is offensive zapdos, but they still suffer from the fact that they don't hit as hard as Roserade, lower attack score in Flygon's case, and lack of a 140 BP move in Zapdos'. Raikou, Venomoth, and SD Hera are all set up sweepers, which is different than a brutal attacker from turn one. As much as I hate to beat the dead horse, I have to say it again, all of them bar venomoth lack sleep powder. I'm not saying that any of these are bad pokemon, but they lack that extra factor that pushes them over the edge. All this is in my opinion however, I'm just voicing my opinion as a die hard member of the UU
community.

[Sabinfrost]

Originally Posted by Fat D4RR3N

...

Pretty much what I thought when I read that....

[Pocket]

FlareBlitz
There are some people who do not believe this is the case, that even with spikes, a counter can either still beat a pokemon, or was never going to beat it in the first place; so they ask, why isolate spikes? There are also people who acknowledge that this phenomenon exists in the metagame, and ask "who cares?" Which are fair questions - why should we care about the state of offense, and even if we should, what makes the existence of easy hazards "broken"?

The bolded part represents my stance of this issue. Spikes is a legitimate strategy of this game, and it requires good timing to set them up. Spikes provides you an advantage in the long-run, but you are essentially forfeiting offensive momentum while setting up Spikes. It's not as brainless as say spamming Blizzard or luck-oriented as a Snow Cloak miss. It still requires finesse to set Spikes up; as jamashawalker has reflected from his battling experience, Spikes doesn't allow worse player to win games the way Hail teams probably did with a timely Snow Cloak miss. In the end, the one that played better will win the match, with all hax being equal.

Whether Roserade or others set them up "too easily" with little trade-off of offensive momentum may warrant further investigation. If that's indeed the case, Roserade can possibly be banned for its own individual merits, rather than simply b/c it has access to Spikes; Spikes alone doesn't make Roserade or others broken.