"Checks and Counters" Project

[jrrrrrrr]

added in the requested changes.

Doing Skarmory now.

Originally Posted by Fat Cherub Agent

J7r, when you talk about how luke counters tyranitar, it sounds odd to say that tyranitar rarely lacks a super effective move against it when the same can be applied to terrakion. Mabye mention that luke is the best choice to switch into its stab moves, and terrakion is a more "technical" choice (forgive me here) since it benefits from crunch and takes nothing from special moves

Edit: Oh unless the standard tyranitar is dark stab, fire blast and ice beam. I always use choice band/scarf so i could well be wrong

I mentioned in the sentence right after that Virizion isn't weak to Superpower/Earthquake so I thought it was implied. I'll make it more clear though, you're right.

The standard TTar as far as I know is Stealth Rock/Dark move/Fire Blast/Rock move but I do see Superpower every now and then.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Heracross, Abomasnow, and Chandelure are slower than Celebi, so add Scarf before their names to relate to your "check with faster threats" idea. Charizard only ties with Celebi and is an obscure threat, so no need to mention it. I would also remove the mention of Scolipede, since it is not a relevant threat in OU (you want to mention Accelgor, Galvantula, and Durant, too?)

Hmm

I wrote this from the perspective of the already-existing analysis...so I thought the thing with Scarf/Speed was obvious because only one Celebi set has more than 36 Speed EVs, while every set of the checks I listed has max Speed. But I'll make that more clear. For you :D

I was actually considering adding in those rare bugs lol. I only mentioned Scolipede because of Megahorn.

[jrrrrrrr]

Skarmory

current

...

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Any Skarmory without Shed Shell loses to Magnezone. The most Skarmory can do is try to Whirlwind and pray that Magnezone uses Substitute instead of zapping to death with STAB Thunderbolt. Wobbuffet isn't a big fan of Taunt, but it can Encore Spikes and Tickle Skarmory to death; after 6 Tickles, Skarmory takes 75.4% – 88.9% if it tries switching out from Choice Band Tyranitar's Pursuit. Specially defensive variants of Skarmory might as well kiss their tin asses goodbye. Zapdos is completely immune to Spikes, packs STAB Thunderbolt, can heal itself with Roost, and even counter-phaze if necessary with Roar. Rotom-W has Will-O-Wisp and STAB Thunderbolt going against Skarmory while not taking passive damage from Spikes thanks to Levitate. Heatran hates Spikes, but it can shut down the process with Taunt and singe the metal birdie with STAB Fire Blast. Other Taunt users, such as Gliscor, can be a headache for Skarmory, since a Taunted Skarmory can be easily forced out.

Magnezone is the textbook definition of a counter to Skarmory. It traps Skarmory with Magnet Pull, uses STAB Electric-type attacks to OHKO Skarmory, and resists every move in Skarmory's movepool except the unusable Rock Smash. The only chance Skarmory has against Magnezone is Whirlwinding if Sturdy is active or if it uses Shed Shell. Wobbuffet traps Skarmory too but it isn't a big fan of Taunt, although it can Encore Spikes and Tickle Skarmory to death. After 6 Tickles, Skarmory takes 75.4% – 88.9% if it tries switching out from Choice Band Tyranitar's Pursuit. Specially defensive variants of Skarmory might as well kiss their tin asses goodbye.

Zapdos is immune to Spikes, packs STAB Thunderbolt, can heal itself with Roost, and even counter-phaze if necessary with Roar. All of the Rotom formes have Will-O-Wisp and STAB Thunderbolt going against Skarmory while not taking passive damage from Spikes thanks to Levitate. Politoed changes the weather and attacks with powerful neutral Water-type attacks. Fire-types hate entry hazards in general but they counter Skarmory very well. Heatran hates Spikes, but it can shut down the process with Taunt and singe the metal birdie with STAB Fire Blast. Ninetales doesn't get Taunt but will scare it away just as quickly, and can spread burns with Will-O-Wisp.

Another way to deal with Skarmory is to just get rid of its entry hazards. Starmie can use Rapid Spin to blow away Skarmory's entry hazards, Recover to shrug off Brave Birds, and threatens with Thunderbolt or its Water-type move of choice. Forretress can exploit Skarmory to lay hazards of its own, and it can also use Rapid Spin. Tentacruel does the same thing. Espeon and Xatu may not like taking Brave Birds but they can reflect Spikes back with their Magic Bounce ability.

Since Skarmory is a defensive Pokemon, its hard to directly counter it because it will only come out of the nest when it knows its safe. This makes the concept of luring vital to getting through Skarmory. For example, a stat-booster like Gyarados and Gliscor can use Taunt to beat Skarmory when they would otherwise be walled. Scizor can use Swords Dance and Superpower on an unsuspecting Skarmory. Jirachi can use Thunderbolt in a similar fashion. Pokemon like Tyranitar, Dragonite and Salamence can use Fire Blast to surprise it. Generally, you want to attack its weaker Special Defense with an Electric- or Fire-type move.

[capefeather]

I don't know if this bothers anyone else, but could we please refer to Chansey as Chansey and not Eviolite Chansey? I feel that this phrase is a relic of the "new stuff" hype, and at this point it's about as silly as referring to Blissey as Leftovers Blissey. I'm just saying this because it's a pretty minor thing to look for in these analysis bulk-ups and I already see it appearing in some of these, and obviously being left alone atm.

[Pocket]

jrrrrrrr's Gyarados counter.

Jirachi, Metagross and Magnezone can challenge sets that lack Earthquake.

I would remove Magnezone off that list - unless it's running max HP, its chances of surviving a Rain-boosted +1 Waterfall from Gyarados is low. You could mention Magnezone alongside with other Flying-resists, such as Tyranitar, Rotom-W, and Zapdos, for being able to switch in on the turn Gyarados's charges for Bounce to annihilate it with their respective super-effective STAB on its way down; it's not always that Gyarados has a Sub up to protect it from such kills.

Otherwise, great prose.

[Nachos]

Current Cloyster

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Empoleon is the only true counter to Cloyster because its typing grants resistance against the three attacks Cloyster will often carry. It can then OHKO the clam back with Grass Knot. Entry hazards are the second thing Cloyster should be aware of as it is weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to Spikes and Toxic Spikes that can limit and, sometimes, prevent a sweep. Water-types are also tough to take down as, for example, Jellicent, Unaware Quagsire, and Vaporeon can all come in while Cloyster uses Shell Smash and, if they're healthy enough, threaten it out thanks to the former two having a status move and the latter having Roar as well. If entry hazards are up, this can be done multiple times due to the fact that they all have recovery moves, and Cloyster will eventually lose.
Strong priority users can also abuse the drop in the defenses to KO Cloyster. Lucario is the most threatening among these and its Vacuum Wave targets the clam's very frail Special Defense, OHKOing it even before Shell Smash. Conkeldurr is, however, the most common of the dangerous priority users and can deal at least 53% with Mach Punch, so if Stealth Rock is on the field, it can stop Cloyster from attacking more than twice. Finally, Pokemon that are faster than Landorus can still outspeed Cloyster after a boost if they hold a Choice Scarf. Luckily, the most common is Starmie that has no troubles OHKOing with Thunderbolt, but even then Starmie only rarely is found holding it.

Being part Ice-type is a double-edged sword for Cloyster. On one hand, it gains an awesome STAB move. On the other, it takes 25% damage from Stealth Rock whenever it switches in, and is liable to being hit by both Spikes and Toxic Spikes. For that reason, having Stealth Rock on the field is a good first answer to Cloyster. A Bullet Punch from Choice Banded Scizor will 2HKO Cloyster after it has taken Stealth Rock damage, while the only thing Cloyster can do back is Hydro Pump, which fails to OHKO Scizor even at +2, not to mention it has shaky accuracy. If rain is up however, Scizor will be easily OHKOed. Conkeldurr will 2HKO offensive Cloyster with Mach Punch as well. Vaccum Wave Lucario is another option to deal with Cloyster; it has no way of stopping a STABed priority move to its pitiful Special Defense stat which will easily OHKO if Lucario is holding a Life Orb. As Cloyster is incredibly fast after Shell Smash, there aren't many Choice Scarfed Pokemon that can even outspeed it. Something that can though is Latios, who will send the clam back to the ocean with Draco Meteor.

Generally speaking, bulky Water-types and Steel-types can handle Cloyster. Non-choiced Rotom-W resists Cloyster's STAB moves, and isn't too fussed about Rock Blast. It can promptly OHKO the clam with Thunderbolt, making it a good switch-in to Cloyster in general. Jellicent and Tentacruel also have the possibility to annoy Cloyster greatly. While both can use Scald on Cloyster and hope for a burn, they also have other options that can put a damper on Cloyster's life. One Will-O-Wisp from Jellicent will help prevent Cloyster from being huge problem. Tentacruel's other option is Toxic, which will start the clock on Cloyster's existance when used in tandem with Protect. Slowbro is another bulky Water- type who can tank anything that Cloyster can throw at it, and target its weaker Special Defense stat with Psychic or Flamethrower. It can also Thunder Wave Cloyster to cripple it. Skarmory can't do much to Cloyster, but can Whirlwind it out to prevent the immediate problem. This is significant due to Cloyster usually carrying a White Herb, and when it is used up Cloyster is left extremely vulnerable later on in the game, potentially being pulverized after using Shell Smash by anything with a strong STAB move. Jirachi with defensive EV investment can quite easily take Cloyster's Water STAB move, and retaliate with Thunderbolt on a Calm Mind version or Body Slam and Iron Head on a specially defensive or physically offensive version. Ferrothorn can take a +2 Icicle Spear, and either hit back with Power Whip, or cripple Cloyster with Thunder Wave. Thanks to Unaware ignoring Shell Smash boosts, Quagsire can take Icicle Spear nicely and Toxic Cloyster back, or even hope to burn it with Scald. A slightly unusual but effective option to deal with Cloyster is specially defensive Heatran. If Hydro Pump is favored over Razor Shell as the Water- type move on Cloyster, it will be unable to OHKO Heatran even at +2. Heatran will OHKO Cloyster for sure after it's taken Stealth Rock damage with Lava Plume. Take note that if rain is up, Heatran will be decimated by any Water-type move from Cloyster.

However, it's likely that you may not have one of the listed checks or they were the victim of a violent crime earlier on in the match. In that case, your best bet is to simply prevent Cloyster setting up by any means possible. This can be done by not leaving something in that Cloyster can easily set up upon after something on your opponent's team dies, or by setting up as many hazards as you can so all of your Pokemon can later on stand a chance against it. One should take note not to underestimate Cloyster. Should the opponent lack any strong answer to Cloyster, this clam can become one of the most dangerous Pokemon to face in OU in a single turn.

Thanks to twash for grammar help etc.

[Pocket]

Great job on the Cloyster Counter section, Nachos. I just want to suggest mentioning that Scizor, Heatran, and Conkeldurr fail to take its Razor Shell / Hydro Pump if it is raining. Specially defensive Jirachi still survives its Razor Shell in the rain. All of these calcs are done without Life Orb, since most hold Focus Sash / White Herb.

For your 1st paragraph, it may be worthy to note that Scarf Latios and Gengar without HP Fire can revenge Cloyster, since it is very hard to come by a Scarfer that could best Cloyster in Speed.

On your second paragraph, I would start off the paragraph, "generally-speaking bulky Water-types and Steel-types can handle Cloyster." I would include the mention Quagsire, for its ability to ignore Shell Smash boosts. You should also stress the non-choiced more bulky Rotom-W variant for dealing with Cloyster, since the scarfed variant has a good chance of being knocked out by +2 Rock Blast after Rocks (17-20%). Slowbro and Vaporeon is worth a mention. Bulky Gyarados can at least Intimidate Cloyster before it falls victim to Rock Blast, allowing other mons to much easily take its attack. Ferrothorn is a bulky Steel-type that can survive Cloyster's assaults and cripple it with either Power Whip or Thunder Wave.

I'm not certain if this is a hard rule, but I think all analyses are written in 3rd person, so you should remove "you" in your final paragraph.

nitpick

Jirachi with defensive EV investment can quite easily take Cloyster's Icicle Spear, and retaliate with Thunderbolt on a CM version or Body Slam and Iron Head on a specially defensive or physically offensive version.

Plz change Icicle Spear to "its Water STAB move" since it does not need defensive investment to survive a resisted Atk.

If Hydro Pump is favored over Razor Move as the Water- type move on Cloyster, it will be unable to OHKO Heatran even at +2.

You mean Razor Shell. Again, plz mention that Heatran is still fucked in the Rain.

Good job, man!

[Nachos]

I'm only including things that I see are commonly used in OU, so stuff like Vaporeon (which is OU for some reason, even though I've only seen like one in the entire time I've played BW) and Bulky Gyarados, which isn't as popular as the Offensive DD set have been excluded. I've taken note of mentioning that Rotom needs bulk, as well as adding Slowbro, Ferrothorn and Quagsire. I added Scarf Latios too, as it's seen every so often. Gengar is in a similar position to Vaporeon from what I've found, so I've kept him out.

Also, it would be slightly awkward to reword the last paragraph now. I think using "you" is fine, as long as it isn't too casual.

Thanks for the help!

[Harsha]

Hey, since I re-wrote the Starmie analysis, I was wondering if this was detailed enough:

<p>While Starmie is the beneficiary of amazing coverage, that is not to say that it does not have flaws. Dedicated special walls like Blissey and Chansey stop Starmie in its tracks. It cannot even come close to 2HKOing Blissey or Chansey unless it has lots of hazard support, and is running Choice Specs and Psyshock. However, these are not always the best counters because Starmie has the ability to carry Trick. With Trick, Starmie essentially neuters both Chansey and Blissey and renders them useless for the rest of the match. While Ferrothorn resists nearly everything that Starmie throws at it, Trick will also ruin it. However, it has the ability to OHKO Starmie as well, and is only 2HKOed by Starmie's Hidden Power Fire. Another solid counter is Gastrodon, as it is immune from Thunderbolt and Hydro Pump, and it takes a pittance from Ice Beam. Starmie may run Hidden Power Grass, though, so one must be weary when switching to Gastrodon. Porygon2 is a great counter to Starmie because it can sponge hits and retaliate with Thunderbolt. While Lanturn is never seen in OU, it counters Starmie hard by absorbing Thunderbolt and being resistant to both Ice Beam and Hydro Pump. Additionally, it OHKOes Starmie with Thunderbolt, so never let Lanturn's appearance fool you. However, one must be weary of Trick as usual. Due to Starmie's amazing coverage, checking the starfish is probably the best way to go, though.</p>

<p>Tyranitar is a notorious check to Starmie, and it's the easiest to throw onto a team because it is so common. While Starmie is able to 2HKO Tyranitar with a Life Orb, Choice Specs, or an Expert Belt, Tyranitar can use Pursuit to catch fleeing Starmie or use Crunch to decimate it. It is best to bring Tyranitar in for a revenge kill when facing Starmie unless one knows that Starmie has Leftovers, though. Scizor is another good check to Starmie, but it must be weary of Hidden Power Fire. Additionally, it has to avoid being OHKOed in the rain by Hydro Pump. However, with access to Pursuit and U-turn, Scizor can exploit Starmie's weakness to both Dark- and Bug-types. Jellicent can sponge hits from Starmies with Leftovers and block Rapid Spin, so it can be considered a check. However, one should note that Starmie will hit very hard with Thunderbolt. Celebi can take everything except for Ice Beam, and it can KO back due to Grass-type STAB. Rotom-W can also come in and cause mayhem by starting a Volt-Turn chain, but one should note that Thunderbolt will do decent chunk of damage each time Rotom-W tries to come in and counter. While Latias is hit for super effective damage by Ice Beam, it can stomach hits and set up; the same applies to Virizion, who has great special bulk. Jolteon can come in on Electric-type attacks and OHKO Starmie, so one should think twice before clicking on Thunderbolt.</p>

[Pocket]

This is a great way to use this thread - I encourage other authors of entire OU analysis to have their Counters section checked here :D

Anyways, I think you over-emphasized Trick and Hidden Power Fire, when they are only seen on 10% and <5% of Starmie, respectively. Claiming that Blissey and Chansey are not always the best counters because of Trick is a bit much - you honestly can't go wrong with those two special sponges, except for the rare choiced Starmie. I would re-phrase the blurb about Blissey / Chansey at the beginning of your Counter section as follows.

"Blissey and Chansey utterly wall Starmie, although they may fall victim to the rare Specs Starmie with some help from heavy hazards support or Trick. Scarf Starmie can also cripple these special sponges with Trick, but this is also another rare variant."

After that, I would remove any mention Trick ruining other special walls, such as Ferrothorn.

P2 is a good answer to Starmie, but mention that Starmie has a good chance of scoring a 2HKO on P2 with Rain Support.

You also mention Scizor needing to worry about HP Fire, but it's such a rare case, since most Starmie values its perfect Spe IVs, so I wont emphasize it too much. What you could emphasize instead - Rain boosted Hydro Pump, which is a much more relevant case of fucking over Scizor.

Great quality overall!

[Harsha]

Thanks Pocket! I'll go fix that up now

[Pocket]

Gastrodon

on-site

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Anything faster than Gastrodon with Toxic will rain on its parade and destroy any potential it has at tanking the opposition for long. This includes Chansey, who will wall its special attacks to no end and doesn't care about status herself. Blissey, Jellicent, and Politoed are equally annoying in this respect, although if Politoed tries to Toxic Gastrodon after its STAB attack is absorbed then it most definitely won't be coming back. To use Gastrodon as effectively as possible, ensure that the opponent isn't likely to Toxic you on the switch. As a hard counter, Ferrothorn comes close if you haven't acquired any boosts with the Choice Specs set and it manages to get in safely. It's immune to Toxic, can OHKO all Gastrodon instantly with Power Whip, or can alternatively Leech Seed the switch in or just set up Spikes. Gastrodon really can't do anything to Ferrothorn unless it can hit it with a Choice Specs, Storm Drain-boosted Earth Power on the switch. Conkeldurr can also be annoying to deal with as it can boost without fear of Toxic or Scald, is not 2HKOed by any non-boosted attack on the defensive set, and can exploit Gastrodon's weaker physical defense with a powerful Drain Punch.

Gastrodon is mainly used as a defensive support Pokemon that spreads status, so any Pokemon that can absorb or block status and handily dispose or cripple Gastrodon are all good counters to consider. Grass-types are obviously the best answer to Gastrodon, as they resist both of its STAB move while effortlessly bringing down this special sponge with their super-effective STAB moves. Breloom and Celebi are particularly noteworthy counters to Gastrodon, as their abilities Poison Heal and Natural Cure, respectively, allow them to block or rinse away Gastrodon's Scald burns or Toxic poison. Ferrothorn does not appreciate Scald burns, but it will not hesitate to use Gastrodon to set up Spikes with impunity. Offensive Water-types that Gastrodon supposedly counters, can earn surprise kills on the slug with a Grass-type move. Non-choiced Politoed, Rotom-W, or Starmie with Hidden Power Grass are such examples. Gyarados, Latias, and Sub Roost Dragonite resist Gastrodon's dual STAB offense while blocking crippling status with Substitute as they set up Dragon Dance or Calm Mind. Defensive bulky Water-types can cripple Gastrodon with Toxic while having ways to avoid being afflicted by Gastrodon's status-inducing moves. For instance, Jellicent is immune to Scald burns, thanks to Water Absorb, and prevent Gastrodon's Toxic with a fast Taunt. With Hydration, Vaporeon washes away any status thrown by Gastrodon while winning the war of attrition with its own Toxic. Chansey and Blissey are also unaffected by status afflictions and special assaults by Gastrodon (except for a Surf boosted by Specs, rain, and Storm Drain), and will also wear down Gastrodon with Toxic and Seismic Toss.

[yee]

<p>While Starmie is the beneficiary of amazing coverage, that is not to say that it does not have flaws. Dedicated special walls like Blissey and Chansey stop Starmie in its tracks. It cannot even come close to 2HKOing Blissey or Chansey unless it has lots of hazard support, and is running Choice Specs and Psyshock. However, these are not always the best counters because Starmie has the ability to carry Trick. With Trick, Starmie essentially neuters both Chansey and Blissey and renders them useless for the rest of the match. While Ferrothorn resists nearly everything that Starmie throws at it, Trick will also ruin it. However, it has the ability to OHKO Starmie as well, and is only 2HKOed by Starmie's Hidden Power Fire. Another solid counter is Gastrodon, as it is immune from Thunderbolt and Hydro Pump, and it takes a pittance from Ice Beam. Starmie may run Hidden Power Grass, though, so one must be weary when switching to Gastrodon. Porygon2 is a great counter to Starmie because it can sponge hits and retaliate with Thunderbolt. While Lanturn is never seen in OU, it counters Starmie hard by absorbing Thunderbolt and being resistant to both Ice Beam and Hydro Pump. Additionally, it OHKOes Starmie with Thunderbolt, so never let Lanturn's appearance fool you. However, one must be weary of Trick as usual. Due to Starmie's amazing coverage, checking the starfish is probably the best way to go, though.</p>

<p>Tyranitar is a notorious check to Starmie, and it's the easiest to throw onto a team because it is so common. While Starmie is able to 2HKO Tyranitar with a Life Orb, Choice Specs, or an Expert Belt, Tyranitar can use Pursuit to catch fleeing Starmie or use Crunch to decimate it. It is best to bring Tyranitar in for a revenge kill when facing Starmie unless one knows that Starmie has Leftovers, though. Scizor is another good check to Starmie, but it must be weary of Hidden Power Fire. Additionally, it has to avoid being OHKOed in the rain by Hydro Pump. However, with access to Pursuit and U-turn, Scizor can exploit Starmie's weakness to both Dark- and Bug-types. Jellicent can sponge hits from Starmies with Leftovers and block Rapid Spin, so it can be considered a check. However, one should note that Starmie will hit very hard with Thunderbolt. Celebi can take everything except for Ice Beam, and it can KO back due to Grass-type STAB. Rotom-W can also come in and cause mayhem by starting a Volt-Turn chain, but one should note that Thunderbolt will do decent chunk of damage each time Rotom-W tries to come in and counter. While Latias is hit for super effective damage by Ice Beam, it can stomach hits and set up; the same applies to Virizion, who has great special bulk. Jolteon can come in on Electric-type attacks and OHKO Starmie, so one should think twice before clicking on Thunderbolt.</p>

Choice specs Psyshock Starmie is never seen and rain-boosted Hydro Pump is doing about the same amount of damage to the blobs, also 2hkoing assuming you somehow got SR and 3 layers of spikes up.

Porygon2 is never seen in OU and needs to be in perfect condition to even have a chance at tanking two rain-boosted Hydro Pumps, it can't even try if Starmie has LO.

If Lanturn is never seen in OU, it shouldn't be mentioned in an OU checks and counters section.

Tyranitar is not the easiest pokemon to throw on a team because it's one of the most common, ScarfTar is easy to throw on because there just happens to be a ton of Pursuit-weak special attackers right below it.

[Nachos]

Current Tornadus

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Blissey and Chansey with Eviolite counter any set lacking Hammer Arm, but must be wary of Taunt. Reuniclus takes little damage from any of Tornadus's moves bar a Life Orb-boosted Hurricane, and even then, once Reuniclus has set up a few Calm Minds, there is little Tornadus can do to destroy it. Choice Scarf users such as Latios and Terrakion can easily revenge kill Tornadus with their powerful STAB attacks.

Whilst Tornadus' STAB moves are incredibly powerful, they're unfortunately resisted by one of the most popular typings in OU, namely Steel. For this reason, a good universal Tornadus counter is specially defensive Jirachi, who takes little from Hurricane or Acrobatics, and can easily retaliate with Body Slam, Iron Head, and Wish. Take note though that the combination of Tornadus and Dugtrio is somewhat popular, and Jirachi may find itself being U-turned upon leaving it vulnerable to Dugtrio. Bronzong fits into this category too and isn't threatened by Dugtrio, but you may find that Bronzong is fairly hard to fit into standard OU teams, and therefore is the reason why Jirachi is usually seen as a more popular option. Chansey and Blissey easily handle the Rain Abuser set if it lacks Hammer Arm. It should be pointed out that as special variants of Tornadus are unseen on anything but rain teams, it would be unwise to switch in Chansey or Blissey should you see it in Team Preview on a non-rain team, as it'll likely be the Acrobatics set. On the subject of weather, removing Tornadus' rain will effectively cripple the special variants as it completely relies on a 100% accurate Hurricane to wreck havoc.

Tornadus is horrifically vulnerable to priority moves too. Mamoswine can knock the genie off its cloud with Ice Shard, whilst Scizor can hit it hard with Bullet Punch. Azumarill can take advantage of Tornadus' rain and smash it with Aqua Jet. All these users appreciate Stealth Rock, as otherwise they'll miss the KO on Tornadus. Choice Scarf users such as Terrakion or Latios give Tornadus trouble as well, whilst Starmie is one of few things fast enough to outspeed and KO Tornadus with either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Choice Scarf Rotom-W proves to be an excellent answer to Tornadus, and can come in on Hurricane or Acrobatics, and respond with either Volt Switch or Thunderbolt.

Current Conkeldurr

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Switching into Conkeldurr can be very difficult due to its massive Attack stat and near flawless coverage between Drain Punch and Payback. Slowbro and Reuniclus with Psychic are probably the two best counters, taking little damage from Payback on the switch. Thanks to Regenerator and Magic Guard, respectively, they are also very easy to keep healthy. Bulky Pokemon with phazing moves such as Skarmory and Hippowdon can force out the Bulk Up set, or in Skarmory's case, hit it with a powerful STAB Brave Bird. Dragonite with Hurricane is an excellent switch-in with Rapid Spin support, taking all of Conkeldurr’s moves easily, outpacing it, and OHKOing with Hurricane. Revenge killing Conkeldurr is reliable with powerful special attacks like Draco Meteor and Psychic. Latios and Salamence can revenge kill Conkeldurr or sneak in on Fighting-type attacks and hit it very hard. Offensive Hydro Pumps and Fire Blasts boosted by weather tend to be strong enough to get the job done, as long as the pokemon can take Mach Punch well.

Switching into Conkeldurr can be very difficult due to its massive Attack stat and near flawless coverage between Drain Punch and Payback. Slowbro and Reuniclus with Psychic are probably the two best counters, taking little damage from Payback on the switch. Thanks to Regenerator and Magic Guard, respectively, they are also very easy to keep healthy. Mew with high defensive EV investement can take a Payback and retaliate with Psychic as well. Gliscor is likely the next best option, as it can Swords Dance up on Conkeldurr and hit it hard with either Earthquake or Acrobatics, depending on the set it's running. If played correctly, Gengar with Substitute and Disable can halt Conkeldurr, and will completely reverse the momentum of a game to your favor. Skarmory can Brave Bird it or Whirlwind it out, but it's really only a short-term solution, as Conkeldurr will simply get back all the HP lost from Spikes through Drain Punch anyway. Hurricane users such as Tornadus or Dragonite also work as they both resist Mach Punch, but must be wary incase Conkeldurr has Stone Edge. Latios is in the same boat and must be cautious of coming in on Payback, but can really blow Conkeldurr out of the water with Draco Meteor. On the same note, strong special moves boosted by weather such as Hydro Pump or Fire Blast target Conkeldurr's lower Special Defense, and will give him a hard time.

Alternatively, hitting Conkeldurr hard with strong physical moves such as Outrages from Choice Banded Dragons such as Dragonite and Haxorus, or Earthquake from Life Orb boosted Landorus will put a big dent in it. It's advised you have some sort of hazard down though or have Conkeldurr weakened, as these moves will fail to KO if Conkeldurr has +1 Defense. Likewise, if they can get in for free, Pokemon with good Special Attack stats such as Celebi or Rotom-W can hit Conkeldurr hard with their STAB moves, but should only ever consider doing so if Conkeldurr has been slightly weakened previously.

[BTzz]

Ok so here's my c&c section for Jynx.

<p>Before even thinking about trying to wall Jynx, you'll need to take Lovely Kiss into acount as it can enable her to get past usual counters. For instance, specially defensive Jirachi can usually stop Jynx as it resist Ice Beam and can break Jynx's Substitutes with Iron Head. However, if Jirachi happens to switch into a Lovely Kiss, Jynx can proceed to boost to +6, at which point she'll be able to 2HKO Jirachi with Ice Beam. To avoid situations like this, the player should look to sacrifice their most dispensible Pokemon to Lovely Kiss to preserve their panned counter to Jynx.</p>

<p>Heatran and Specially deffensive Jirachi are you best bets when looking to stop Jynx. Heatran x4 resists Ice Beam and can KO Jynx even in rain as Dry Skin's secondary effect esenially cancels out rain's suppression of Fire-type attacks. Specially Defensive Jirachi can also take Ice Beams and heal off any damage with Wish. Jirachi also gives Jynx no time to set up due to a super effective Iron Head. Jynx struggles in sand and especially sun, as it will gradually decrease Jynx's HP each turn thanks to Dry Skin's secondary effect. Furthermore, Ninetales can switch into Jynx and threaten it with sun boosted Fire-type attacks. Tyranitar changes Jynx's bennificial weather as well, and can take Ice Beams thanks to the Special Defense boost it receives from sand. Tyranitar can also threaten Jynx with either of its super effective STAB moves, though it has to watch out for a +2 Focus Blast. Blissey may look like a full stop to Jynx with its immense special bulk and Natural Cure, however Jynx outspeeds Blissey so all it can do is attack. Unfortunatley, Sesmic Toss can only manage to 5HKO Jynx while its Ice Beam won't even break through Jynx's Substitutes. Therefore, Blissey can only deafeat Jynx if she's using Flamethrower.</p>

<p>Fast physical attackers such as Landorus, Mienshao and Terrakion can outspeed and KO Jynx due to her poor defense, however none of which can take a hit from Jynx by either switching in or atempting breaking her Substitute. A good way to go about stopping Jynx with an offensive team is getting a Pokemon that resists Ice Beam to break her Substitute while you switch out into a check. For instance you could break her Substitute with Scizor's or Rotom's U-turn or Volt Switch while they take the Ice Beam, and switch out into Landorus or Terrakion to KO her. Cloyster 4x resist Jynx's Ice STAB while being able to break though Jynx's Substitute and KO her with a super effective Rock Blast. However Cloyster has to be careful switching in as it has a poor special defense so any of Jynx's neutral special attacks with deal heavy damage to it. Scizor resists both of Jynx's STAB attacks and can opt to Pursuit trap or gain mommentum off Jynx, by breaking its Substitute with U-turn. Despite being weak to Ice, Haxorus can can check Jynx with a Choice Scarf equipped as it can break through Jynx's Substitute and KO Jynx with a STAB Dual Chop.</p>

How is the content? It hasn't gone through GP checks yet so I'd apreciate any spelling / prose errors anyone points out :p

[Pocket]

sexellent, Brizznetz. I like how you mentioned a solution to Jynx's Lovely Kiss, as well as a solid checking method. You also disclosed how Blissey in this case is not the best answer to Jynx, which is a good thing to clarify. The mention on weather was definitely relevant information to this section. Good work :D

bennificial weather

- "beneficial"

[BTzz]

Thanks Pocket :3. I'll go update my thread now.

[shrang]

Anyone else think that these new counters sections are getting a bit too wordy? I mean, we probably need more substance in the Counters section, but like Setsuna has said before, we also need to be concise. Sorry Nachos for picking on yours, but I just want to illustrate a point:

Being part Ice-type is a double-edged sword for Cloyster. On one hand, it gains an awesome STAB move. On the other, it takes 25% damage from Stealth Rock whenever it switches in, and is liable to being hit by both Spikes and Toxic Spikes. For that reason, having Stealth Rock on the field is a good first answer to Cloyster. A Bullet Punch from Choice Banded Scizor will 2HKO Cloyster after it has taken Stealth Rock damage, while the only thing Cloyster can do back is Hydro Pump, which fails to OHKO Scizor even at +2, not to mention it has shaky accuracy. If rain is up however, Scizor will be easily OHKOed. Conkeldurr will 2HKO offensive Cloyster with Mach Punch as well. Vaccum Wave Lucario is another option to deal with Cloyster; it has no way of stopping a STABed priority move to its pitiful Special Defense stat which will easily OHKO if Lucario is holding a Life Orb. As Cloyster is incredibly fast after Shell Smash, there aren't many Choice Scarfed Pokemon that can even outspeed it. Something that can though is Latios, who will send the clam back to the ocean with Draco Meteor if it is holding a Choice Scarf.

Generally speaking, bulky Water-types and Steel-types can handle Cloyster. Non-choiced Rotom-W resists Cloyster's STAB moves, and isn't too fussed about Rock Blast. It can promptly OHKO the clam with Thunderbolt, making it a good switch-in to Cloyster in general. Jellicent and Tentacruel also have the possibility to annoy Cloyster greatly. While both can use Scald on Cloyster and hope for a burn, they also have other options that can put a damper on Cloyster's life. One Will-O-Wisp from Jellicent will help prevent Cloyster from being huge problem. Tentacruel's other option is Toxic, which will start the clock on Cloyster's existance when used in tandem with Protect. Slowbro is another bulky Water- type who can tank anything that Cloyster can throw at it, and target its weaker Special Defense stat with Psychic or Flamethrower. It can also Thunder Wave Cloyster to cripple it. Skarmory can't do much to Cloyster, but can Whirlwind it out to prevent the immediate problem. This is significant due to Cloyster usually carrying a White Herb, and when it is used up Cloyster is left extremely vulnerable later on in the game, potentially being pulverized after using Shell Smash by anything with a strong STAB move. Jirachi with defensive EV investment can quite easily take Cloyster's Water STAB move, and retaliate with Thunderbolt on a Calm Mind version or Body Slam and Iron Head on a specially defensive or physically offensive version. Ferrothorn can take a +2 Icicle Spear, and either hit back with Power Whip, or cripple Cloyster with Thunder Wave. Thanks to Unaware ignoring Shell Smash boosts, Quagsire can take Icicle Spear nicely and Toxic Cloyster back, or even hope to burn it with Scald. A slightly unusual but effective option to deal with Cloyster is specially defensive Heatran. If Hydro Pump is favored over Razor Shell as the Water- type move on Cloyster, it will be unable to OHKO Heatran even at +2. Heatran will OHKO Cloyster for sure after it's taken Stealth Rock damage with Lava Plume. Take note that if rain is up, Heatran will be decimated by any Water-type move from Cloyster.

However, it's likely that you may not have one of the listed checks or they were the victim of a violent crime earlier on in the match. In that case, your best bet is to simply prevent Cloyster setting up by any means possible. This can be done by not leaving something in that Cloyster can easily set up upon after something on your opponent's team dies, or by setting up as many hazards as you can so all of your Pokemon can later on stand a chance against it. One should take note not to underestimate Cloyster. Should the opponent lack any strong answer to Cloyster, this clam can become one of the most dangerous Pokemon to face in OU in a single turn.

Everything in bold could potentially be omitted. Be quick and straight to the point. Something like "Specially Defensive Jirachi is the best counter to Latios" is better than "Due to Jirachi's high Special Defense and Steel-typing, which neutralises Latios' Dragon STAB, Specially Defensive Jirachi is the best counter to Latios", in my opinion. On that topic, are we GPing these, if only just once?

[Oglemi*]

yeah there've been quite a few gp mistakes in these when they're uploaded, I would appreciate it if a GP member could hit these up beforehand

[Pocket]

OK, we will send our revamp posts to GP queue from now on.

[Nachos]

shrang, that last paragraph which you bolded is actually quite important. The player needs to be aware that Cloyster can possibly sweep their team after a single boosting move (its happened to me, and I've swept with it myself). I agree with your first paragraph edit though. With regards to your SpDef Rachi example, I like to explain clearly why so and so is the best job for the situation, even if it does get a bit wordy at times. Also, some stuff is added in for flavour, as I thought that people generally disliked our analysis's being robotic.

[emirinho]

Can everyone be included in this project because i was thinking to try and fix some "checks and counter" parts of some pokemon.

Thank you in advance.

[Harsha]

Nah, this is only for approved contributors who know the metagame and what they are doing extremely well. As for the project, could someone look at my Rotom-C c&c section?

Originally Posted by Fat Rotom-C (Full Revamp)

<p>Since Rotom-C is a very diverse Pokemon, its checks and counters can depend upon the set that it runs. However, there are a few universal counters that wall Rotom-C such as Blissey, Chansey, and specially defensive Heatran. While Rotom-C can run Trick to attempt to cripple these counters, as well as other members of stall teams, the three will have a field day against a Rotom-C that attempts to stay in and battle. However, one should note that in the rain, Modest Rotom-C with Thunder will 2HKO defensive Heatran after Stealth Rock damage. Numerous Fire-type Pokemon can also effectively check Rotom-C due to their resistance to Leaf Storm; among these include Volcarona, Infernape, and Ninetales. Ninetales and Volcarona each have high base Special Defense already, and they can attempt to set up on all Rotom-C sets bar the offensive scout, as paralysis will cripple them. Breloom, especially Bulk Up variants, gives Rotom-C a hard time due to its resistance to Rotom-C's main STAB attacks and the ability to incapacitate the next Pokemon to come out with a well timed Spore. Bulk Up Breloom does even better because of the high investment in Special Defense, so it works as a great check to all Rotom-C sets due to the Toxic Orb; Rotom-C cannot paralyze Breloom if the Toxic Orb has activated. Breloom will have its way unless it comes in on a Hidden Power Fire or Hidden Power Ice from Rotom-C. Celebi is another great counter to Rotom-C because of its high Special Defense. Though Rotom-C's Choice Specs set will roast Celebi, the pixie can take damage from any of the other sets and retaliate back by either gaining momentum or attacking back with a Hidden Power of its own. Like with every Rotom forme bar Rotom-F, Latios and Latias are problematic. Both resist Rotom-C's dual STABs and can become deadly sweepers after just one turn of set up. Refresh variants of Latias can even continue to play while paralyzed.</p>

I can add more if this is not long enough. I feel like it may need to be beefed after looking at these c&c sections.

[emirinho]

Not that i want to boast or brag but i think i can write a pretty nice text related to checks and counters of a pokemon.
Can i at least try?

[Nachos]

Add something about how Ferrothorn sets up on it for free if it lacks Hidden Power Fire. Virizion is similar to Breloom in that it can come in on anything bar HP: Ice/Fire and set up on Rotom with Calm Mind, and the Hidden Powers won't do too much anyway due to Virizion having good Special Defense. If Rotom-C lacks WoW or HP:Ice, Haxorus sets up for free on it too. Hydregion can come in on its STABs and retaliate with a strong move or set up a Substitute. It's not too common, but could be given a quick mention. Other than that, it's good. All the main stuff has been listed.

[Harsha]

Alrighty, thanks Nachos! And if anyone on QC is reading this / wondering, this analysis will be finished this weekend.