ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)

[Complications]

I believe so Gerard.

By the way Deck Knight, I think this is a great implementation into the game.

[Objection]

Originally Posted by Fat Gerard

PS: what does 5th Generation learnset means? I'm thinking all of Level Up, Eggs + 5th Gen TMs & Tutors but I think I would like clarification

It means moves that the pokemon gets in 5th gen. In other words, 5th gen level-up moves, 5th gen egg moves, 5th gen TMS, 5th gen tutors and 5th gen event moves.

EDIT: In response to Complications' concern:
<~Deck_Knight> Only Ice types can Freeze. That said Ice Dynamicpunch could confuse.

[Rediamond]

Things from the last few days:

RE SIG ITEMS:

Allow the Ancientpower-based evolutions to use Rare Candy? This is really the simplest solution, as there isn't an item or specific area to serve as the catalyst beyond level up.

RE ILLUMINATE:

Illuminate is tricky, but I will support any non-HAX based solution for it. I do think that x1.1 is a bit more realistic, however.

RE DODGE COMBINATIONS:

Dodge is a command. We could just specify that moves can only be combined with moves and be done with it. It makes things a bit simpler, too. Either way, I don't view them as necessarily broken as much as I view them as a bad thing due to the universal distribution of dodge and some of the very ridiculous combinations people are using with Dodge.

RE Signature Moves:

It's a rather big change with rather sweeping effects for rather little reason. Instead of thinking why not on something that moves outside of ingame precedent, I think we should be asking why. While it allows for customization, I feel as though it may be a step in the wrong direction. While I could be incorrect, and I do think the current proposal is close to perfect if such a thing is too happen, I personally don't see a reason to include them.

Of course, I actually don't feel strongly at all. Just apathetic leaning against them.

[jas61292]

Originally Posted by Fat Rediamond

RE Signature Moves:

It's a rather big change with rather sweeping effects for rather little reason. Instead of thinking why not on something that moves outside of ingame precedent, I think we should be asking why. While it allows for customization, I feel as though it may be a step in the wrong direction. While I could be incorrect, and I do think the current proposal is close to perfect if such a thing is too happen, I personally don't see a reason to include them.

Yeah, basically this. There is no reason to suddenly include something with such far reaching consequences other than "why not?" One of the things that makes me really like our version of ASB is how not only is it highly codified and defined, but that most major things are based on in game or anime precedent. This here has none of that. It is a case of "this could be cool." Honestly, any form of signature moves is really just a step in the wrong direction. It is just a case of people wanting more for Pokemon that aren't naturally what they want. We don't allow people to edit Pokemon's stats or typing, so why should we allow changes to movepools on a player by player basis. It really makes no sense and goes against what we are about, in my opinion.

[Complications]

I disagree personally. It's not a "why not," it does actually incorporate the anime, in my opinion. Countless times throughout the show, Ash, his companions, and his opponents create "techniques" that are essentially signature moves that they use in battle. On top if that, the ASB remains formatted and codified. The moves would still have all the applications and restrictions of other moves; in fact they are the same as other moves except for type.

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by Fat jas61292

Yeah, basically this. There is no reason to suddenly include something with such far reaching consequences other than "why not?" One of the things that makes me really like our version of ASB is how not only is it highly codified and defined, but that most major things are based on in game or anime precedent. This here has none of that. It is a case of "this could be cool." Honestly, any form of signature moves is really just a step in the wrong direction. It is just a case of people wanting more for Pokemon that aren't naturally what they want. We don't allow people to edit Pokemon's stats or typing, so why should we allow changes to movepools on a player by player basis. It really makes no sense and goes against what we are about, in my opinion.

this basically

[jas61292]

Originally Posted by Fat Complications

I disagree personally. It's not a "why not," it does actually incorporate the anime, in my opinion. Countless times throughout the show, Ash, his companions, and his opponents create "techniques" that are essentially signature moves that they use in battle.

As someone who has indeed seen every single episode of the anime, I would have to disagree. The implication of a signature move is that it is something the Pokemon uses frequently that either no one else can do, or it does significantly better than other Pokemon. Such attacks are not frequent occurrences, and when they do happen, they are usually one off moves that you never see again. Not only that, but these are never signature moves like we have defined here. These are usually either utilization of existing attacks in unusual ways (see countershield) or combinations of move (which we already have). And not only that, but in the latter case such combinations are usually used by a pair of Pokemon, not one individually. If there is actual precedent, please show me, but as far as I can tell, nothing that has actually happened in the anime would be anything like these signature moves. And, if such examples do exist, they are only rare occurrences that would not make any sense to give to every Pokemon in the game.

[Elevator Music]

I agree with jas. The idea has just never sat well with me, and I guess that's partly why...

[Eternal Drifter]

There will be those who are against the proposed change, and those who are for it, regarding signature moves. Many of the points have already been brought up, and I am against this measure. We already have combinations, instead of signature moves, and you can name your combinations something unique to differentiate them from others (for me, Shadow Ball+Shadow Ball= Immitation of the Sphere of Annihilation).

IF this goes through, though, against my approval (not that my approval matters), in order to prevent people from getting too angry, we'd have to recodify a lot (TLRs, for example), and Battles and role-plays would all have to start having "Signature Moves On/Off" clauses, and place limits on Poke'mon from abusing them.

Deck Knight's post is really thought out, and is likely to please several players, but I do not think its implementation would be beneficial to the community.

[Its_A_Random]

RE Signature Moves:

I have opposed them in the past, & I will continue to do so. While extra customisation is "nice", I would much rather the combination attack system we have in place to this sig moves. Not only do they (sig moves) add many layers of complexity, but I am not convinced that they will be balanced, period. If they were to ever be implemented, the following changes will be required, imo:

• Stealth Rock, Spikes, & Toxic Spikes are considered moves that can never be base moves; Entry Hazards tend to be popular in longer Switch=OK matches, & one layer of hazards can define a match. Trust me, by allowing these moves as base, these would be some of the more popular choices. Why? Because one layer of <Entry Hazard> up can be of a real benefit to the user; It can turn what can be a KO in 3 actions time into a KO in 2 actions time, for example. We do not need another Stealth Rock / (Toxic) Spikes clone. By banning these as base moves, sig moves can be a little more balanced, but not much. Stealth Fighting...What the fuck?
• You can only clone moves that the Pokemon in question can naturally learn. For example, "Oh noes, Stored Power is an awesome move, so I should make all my Simple mons learn a Stored Power clone to help win". Basically, It cuts out virtually all the "has to make sense flavour-wise" bullshit, & it also forces users to be more creative with their choices, instead of just cloning the same base move for all their Pokemon.

Also, Sig Moves are just too big of a change to bother with. Roleplays have to be altered, Sig Moves Clauses, etc. Also, there is little to no Anime precedent for this. As with before, the reason behind implementing sig moves appears to be "Why not? This looks cool!" As a result, Sig Moves still gets a no from me.

Also, agreeing with jas61292 on this, naturally.

[zarator]

Tbh, even if at first I was intrigued by the idea of Sig Moves, the points raised by IAR and jas and the others are legitimate. I'm now persuaded that it may be best to not include them.

[deadfox081]

I would like to announce that I am pretty firmly against the idea of Signature Moves in general also.

As well thought out as Deck's proposal is I just don't see a real need for them.

[SubwayJ]

I know I'm gonna get shot for saying this but I am very for signature moves.
/me gets shot

All joking aside I think they'd be a welcome addition to this game. The one issue I have right now is because people are saying "What reason are they for other than 'this would be cool?'" In my opinion that is just as awful of an argument as "We should have them cause they'd be cool."

One more thing is that people are really overestimating potential of these moves, it gives you one extra coverage move. That's all! It's not like this one move will singlehandedly break a mon, if anything it helps mons with small movepools more than ones with great coverage already. (and we're all for making everything viable right?)

I would however like to support IARs proposals of no Entry Hazards (I thought they were unallowed already) and the need for the base move to clone.

If I had any proposals it would be that the cloned move should cost more energy than the base move (Say 20ish%). And mons that get no move possibilites other than STABs and Normal should get the ability to make a move that has the same type as their next highest move count (I.E. Cinccino can make a dark move despite having 4 dark moves)

So just my two cents on sig moves!

[Yarnus of Bethany]

I'd like to bring up that sequences, despite being a large change with no anime precedent, were accepted quickly with little disagreement, because they were optional, as these should be if they aren't already.

[Complications]

I could see optional signature moves as being allowed. It'd be just like any other clause in ASB, like items or abilities.

[Imanalt]

I think people are underestimating how good signature moves could be. Look at golurk, currently it's best physical stab is shadow punch 6 bap (8 because iron fist), and with this it could get a ghost typed dynamic punch which has FOUR more bap and a great effect? Much as it would help my golurk, I think this is too game breaking of a change unless we at least take a much closer look at this

[Rediamond]

My main problem with signature moves from a competitive standpoint is simply that they can be used to overcome many limitations that define a Pokemon. Lack of STAB? You can now get a 10+ BP move easily. Lack of coverage? Escavalier can get a fighting signature move, and I'm sure that applies to many others. Even if the Pokemon is limited by the rules, the fact that people will use them to benefit their Pokemon as much as possible ensures Power Creep.

And to argue against the mentality of "well you don't have any reason that we can't..."

1) Almost no Anime/Game/Magna Precedent
2) This is majorly game changing, and arguably not in a good way. I think it needs more consideration than "it would be cool" to get this passed. If it was very minor, I would be fine with the "no good reason not to." That's the difference between this and sequences. If they had an effect, sequences would have been both positive and minor. This is huge and arguably bad.

Now, with that said, I would be willing to see some version of a loose or new TM as they can be easily regulated, and not just any player can earn them. But, I'm now under the impression that letting every Pokemon with a maxed DC get a sig move is a bad idea.

[Yarnus of Bethany]

Does Golurk not have Earthquake?

And Machamp has Dynamic Punch and it's not OP.

[Objection]

Originally Posted by Fat Rediamond

Now, with that said, I would be willing to see some version of a loose or new TM as they can be easily regulated, and not just any player can earn them. But, I'm now under the impression that letting every Pokemon with a maxed DC get a sig move is a bad idea.

This is what I consider to be the major flaw of the current system. It appears that sig moves are free once at max DC, which is far too cheap. I don't know what a good price and maybe additional prerequisite would be, but there needs to be a significant price.

[TIO]

I think that the new/loose TM or 4-7 MC for a sig move would be good.
Alternatively, we could make it so that if a mon has max DC and you have beaten the gym of that type, then you could teach it any sig move, as long as there are similar moves in existence, and it makes flavor sense. This would mean you can't teach, say, a Typhlosion something equal to DynamicPunch. You could teach it a Dragon-type Flamethrower, or something along those lines, though.

[Imanalt]

Originally Posted by Fat Yarnus of Bethany

Does Golurk not have Earthquake?

And Machamp has Dynamic Punch and it's not OP.

This would give golurk perfect neutral coverage jist with dynamic punch, and yes it has earthquake, but it would love to be able to better abuse its ghost stab with a high powered move...

I was also just using it as an example of a large powercreep, not saying it alone makes sig moves broken

[C$FP]

just so we can get things moving, I would like to propose votes that could be made (by the council)

Illuminate:
[+10% Accuracy for all mons when the user is on the field, doesn't stack] vs. [+10% Accuracy for all mons when the user is on the field and increased capture rate on non-boss Pokemon by x1.1, doesn't stack at all] vs. [keep as is]

Dodge Combos:
[Dodge CT: none] vs. [keep as is]

Timing of Energy Spent on Dig, Sky Attack, etc.
[50% at charge-up/evasive stage, 50% at attacking stage] vs. [100% at evasive stage] vs. [100% attacking stage]

Priority Substitution Clause:
[yes, we should be able to sub for Priority moves] vs. [no, we should not be able to sub for Priority moves]

if there is a tie between two in a three-way vote, then whoever voted for the third option can be forced to vote for one of the other two as a tie-breaker


btw, I do not support Signature Moves

[Gerard]

What is with Illuminate not being abe to be stacked, I fail to see how +20 acc would be so bad that having two (or OMG, three!) mons with Illuminate on the field could possibly break, I agree that the catch rate might be better if this doesn't stack, but not the accuracy boost (not that there are even a lot of TLRs that would let you use Starmie/Mollux/Lanturne/Volbeat(?)/Watchdog(Seriously?) in a team effectively)

[Its_A_Random]

With more than half the council expressing opposition to Signature Moves, it seems like Signature Moves will be defeated.

At any rate, back to Dodge & Friends, & here are the proposed changes...

Dodge

---

Old

Dodge: The Pokemon uses its innate speed and evasiveness to dodge an opponent's attack. The Pokemon's Size Class determines their Base Dodge. Then Dodge reduces an incoming attack’s accuracy by (User’s Speed - Opponent’s Speed) / 5. The accuracy boost from a +Spe nature is added directly to the Dodge command's accuracy reduction (e.g. +20 accuracy will result in dodge adding +20 to its oncoming accuracy reduction.) In Trick Room, these effects are reversed; an incoming attack’s accuracy is reduced by ((User’s Speed - Opponent’s Speed) * -1) / 5, and the accuracy boost is subtracted from Base Dodge rather than added. If a move's accuracy would be increased by the Dodge command, the Dodge command instead simply fails and the move has normal accuracy. Dodge can evade any attack except for attacks that do not have an accuracy check (this includes Thunder in Rain and Blizzard in Hail) or are influenced by Lagging Tail, Lock-On, No Guard, Mind Reader, or Telekinesis. This command fails if used consecutively, or after Protect, Detect, Agility (Evasive), or Teleport (Evasive).

The formula is structured:

Base Dodge + Dodge Formula +/- Nature effects

The complete formula under normal conditions is:

Base Dodge + ((User's Speed - Opponent's Speed) / 5) + Accuracy boosting value from user's +Spe Nature / - 10EVA drop from -Spe Nature

The complete formula under Trick Room conditions is:

Base Dodge + (((User's Speed - Opponent's Speed) *-1) / 5)) - Accuracy boosting value from a +Spe Nature / + 10EVA drop from -Spe Nature

Command Type: Universal | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 4 | CT: Deferring

New

Dodge: The Pokemon uses its innate speed and evasiveness to dodge an opponent's attack. The Pokemon's Size Class determines their Base Dodge. Then Dodge reduces an incoming attack’s accuracy by (User’s Speed - Opponent’s Speed) / 5. The accuracy boost from a +Spe nature is added directly to the Dodge command's accuracy reduction (e.g. +20 accuracy will result in dodge adding +20 to its oncoming accuracy reduction.) In Trick Room, these effects are reversed; an incoming attack’s accuracy is reduced by ((User’s Speed - Opponent’s Speed) * -1) / 5, and the accuracy boost is subtracted from Base Dodge rather than added. If a move's accuracy would be increased by the Dodge command, the Dodge command instead simply fails and the move has normal accuracy. Dodge can evade any attack except for attacks that do not have an accuracy check (this includes Thunder in Rain and Blizzard in Hail) or are influenced by Lagging Tail, Lock-On, No Guard, Mind Reader, or Telekinesis. This command fails if used consecutively, or after Protect, Detect, Agility (Evasive), or Teleport (Evasive).

The formula is structured:

Base Dodge + Dodge Formula +/- Nature effects

The complete formula under normal conditions is:

Base Dodge + ((User's Speed - Opponent's Speed) / 5) + Accuracy boosting value from user's +Spe Nature / - 10EVA drop from -Spe Nature

The complete formula under Trick Room conditions is:

Base Dodge + (((User's Speed - Opponent's Speed) *-1) / 5)) - Accuracy boosting value from a +Spe Nature / + 10EVA drop from -Spe Nature

Command Type: Universal | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 4 | CT: None

Agility

---

Old

Agility: The Pokemon focuses to increase its speed two (2) stages, enabling it to maneuver much more swiftly. Agility can also be used as a +1 Priority evasive attack. Agility will evade any slower single target attack (other than perfect accuracy attacks and No Guard attacks). If used evasively, the Pokemon does not gain any speed boost. Evasive Agility also fails if used successively, or if used after Protect, Detect, Evasive Teleport, or the Dodge Command.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Psychic | Priority: 0 Speed Boost, +1 Evasive Use | CT: Passive

New

Agility: The Pokemon focuses to increase its speed two (2) stages, enabling it to maneuver much more swiftly. Agility can also be used as a +1 Priority evasive attack. Agility will evade any slower single target attack (other than perfect accuracy attacks and No Guard attacks). If used evasively, the Pokemon does not gain any speed boost. If Evasive Agility is combined with a suitable damaging move, the evasive properties granted by Evasive Agility are nullified. Evasive Agility also fails if used successively, or if used after Protect, Detect, Evasive Teleport, or the Dodge Command.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Psychic | Priority: 0 Speed Boost, +1 Evasive Use | CT: Passive

Teleport

---

Old

Teleport: The Pokemon glows white and then disappears, reappearing in another location several seconds later. Teleport has 2 distinct uses:
1. Teleport (Evasive)
Teleport can be used as a +1 Priority evasive attack. Teleport will evade any slower single target attack (other than perfect accuracy attacks and No Guard attacks). If used evasively, the Pokemon does not gain any other benefits. This move fails if used successively, or after Protect, Detect, Agility (Evasive), or the Dodge Command.
2. Teleport (Switch)
[Switch = KO], Teleport can be used to briefly return to a Pokeball and reappear, resetting all of the Pokemon's stat changes and snaps it out of temporary status as well as other effects like Disable, Taunt, and Torment.
[Switch = OK], In a switch battle, the Teleport user is sent back to its trainer's Poke Ball at the end of the round. The Pokemon that is switched in to replace the user is chosen by the player from their remaining Pokemon, however the trainer that commanded Teleport must attack first. A Pokemon switched out with Teleport can switch without initiating a Switch Phase, but only Pokemon that used Teleport, U-turn or Volt Switch can be swapped out.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Psychic | Priority: +1 Evasive Action, 0 Switch Effect | CT: Passive

New

Teleport: The Pokemon glows white and then disappears, reappearing in another location several seconds later. Teleport has 2 distinct uses:
1. Teleport (Evasive)
Teleport can be used as a +1 Priority evasive attack. Teleport will evade any slower single target attack (other than perfect accuracy attacks and No Guard attacks). If used evasively, the Pokemon does not gain any other benefits. If Evasive Teleport is combined with a suitable damaging move, the evasive properties granted by Evasive Teleport are nullified. This move fails if used successively, or after Protect, Detect, Agility (Evasive), or the Dodge Command.
2. Teleport (Switch)
[Switch = KO], Teleport can be used to briefly return to a Pokeball and reappear, resetting all of the Pokemon's stat changes and snaps it out of temporary status as well as other effects like Disable, Taunt, and Torment.
[Switch = OK], In a switch battle, the Teleport user is sent back to its trainer's Poke Ball at the end of the round. The Pokemon that is switched in to replace the user is chosen by the player from their remaining Pokemon, however the trainer that commanded Teleport must attack first. A Pokemon switched out with Teleport can switch without initiating a Switch Phase, but only Pokemon that used Teleport, U-turn or Volt Switch can be swapped out.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Psychic | Priority: +1 Evasive Action, 0 Switch Effect | CT: Passive

Anyone agree with these changes?

Also, I want to bring up Fixing Forewarn. Like with Illuminate, Forewarn adds random miss-hax to the table when using SE moves. This is judged by the community as uncompetitive, so how to fix it...I am thinking something along the lines of this:

Old

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective, OHKO, and explosive attacks, and has a percentage (%) chance to evade equal to one (1) plus (+) double (x2) the move's base attack power. This percentage chance (%) is applied to the attacking move's base accuracy.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

New

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents attacks, and tend to be more evasive in nature. When this Pokemon uses the Dodge command, the Evasion rate of Dodge is increased by a percentage (%) of one (1) plus (+) double (x2) the move's base attack power used by the opposing Pokemon targeting this Pokemon (The Dodge rate is still capped at 50%). When this Pokemon uses Evasive Agility or Evasive Teleport, this Pokemon will also evade moves that can target more than one Pokemon in addition to its current evasive properties.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

The idea was to keep Forewarn as an Evasive ability, but only apply it only when using evasive moves, as opposed to any SE/OHKO/Explosive move. Thoughts?

[Pwnemon]

i support everything that IAR has posted...

also gerard lanturn/mollux/starmie would actually kinda wreck mysterious cove when you think about it