ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)

[Gerard]

Originally Posted by Fat New Iluminate

Illuminate:

Type: Can be Enabled

This Pokemon emits a continuous light that brightens the environment and makes it easier for all Pokemon to see. While this ability is active, any darkened or twilight state in the battle is negated and all moves used by any Pokemon (friend or foe, or itself) have their accuracy increased by 10% (flat). Boosts from multiple Illuminates do not stack.

Pokemon with this ability: Staryu, Starmie, Chinchou, Lanturn, Volbeat, Watchog, Mollux.

Now, while I think the lack of annoying and unnecesary misses is a good thing for a battle (for anyone looking for a reason to a sudden change of attitude see a very annoying afternoon in pokemon showdown's random battle) I don't think this is the right way to do it, both the not stacking, but mainly boosting the acc of your opponent seem like too much of a nerf for something that it's still supposed to be a good ability

Starmie:
Hydro Pump (though with +Spe becomes irrelevant)
Blizzard
Thunder
Zap Cannon (with +Spe)

Mollux:
Fire Blast
Heat Wave
Gunk Shot (?)
Toxic (?)

Lanturn:
Hydro Pump
Thunder
Blizzard
Bounce (?)

Volbeat:
Zen Headbutt (?)
Thunder

Watchog:
Super Fang
Hyper Beam
Giga Impact
Iron Tail
Hypnosis
Focus Blast
Thunder
(But then again, is Watchog...)

Many good moves right?
Oh yeah, it's only a 10% acc boost... that also helps your opponent and thus leaves you more vulnerable to Jump Kick, HJK & Cross Chop (Watchog), Fire Blast & Heat Wave (Volbeat), Megahorn (Starmie), Power Whip (Starmie & Lanturn), Stone Edge (Mollux & Volbeat), Thunder (Starmie), Hurricane (Volbeat), Blizzard, Hydro Pump, Dragon Rush, Gunk Shot, Hyper Beam, Will-o-Wisp, Hypnosis, and a BIG etc...

You say you Don't HAVE to activate it yes, but every pokemon, or at east every decent one, has a couple of this moves, many times more, and only activating it in the ones that don't is just not realistic, you're just gonna end up not using it at all, you might use it against mons you have already an adventage agin, but you're never gonna bother against anything that has suc a high powered attack, In doubles and triples the risk increases and the abiity is just dead weight, why even bother when other using more reliable methods than don't hep your opponent exist?

So I really thing Illuminate changing is good, but leaving it as a simple Victory Star clone rather than this weird No Guard hybrid that pleases nobody is not, I still have issues with the no stacks, but for now, that's it.

[Its_A_Random]

If we want to fix Illuminate again, then a Victory Star Clone is not going to cut it in my books. Illuminate is supposed to be an ability that can be turned on or off, because flavour-wise, you cannot keep up a light forever. And with every ability with a switch, there is supposed to be boons & ills resulting from it. New Illuminate makes very good sense flavour-wise, since you light up an area, you can find an opponent more easily, & the other way around.

Also, from a competitive standpoint, being vulnerable to other moves is not as bad as making your moves more accurate, imo. I mean, +Speed Starmie gets access to stronger coverage moves with Thunder & Blizzard becoming as accurate as Thunderbolt & Ice Beam. +Speed Mollux gets 100% Heat Wave, Toxic, & Fire Blast, more importantly. Volbeat...meh, but Watchog also benefits from the boost with 100% Super Fang, Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Hyper Fang. Zen Headbutt, Aqua Tail, & an improvement in accuracy to a host of moves.

Also, this risk thing you talk about in Doubles+ is not as bad as you make it out to be. If you are spamming moves like Heat Wave, Icy Wind, Rock Slide, Blizzard, etc., then Illuminate is obviously going to be to your benefit in a way, since the chances you are going to miss drop/diminish. True it helps your opponent as well, but if you plan to spam such moves, then obviously, enabling Illuminate is worth it.

The bottom line is that new Illuminate is not as terrible as you think, but it makes sense flavour-wise, & basically, it is risk vs. reward. New Illuminate is balanced, & that is what matters in terms of the health of the game.

[Leethoof]

Leethoof tentatively throws out ideas. I remember we once had this brilliant idea to give Levitate mons DW abilities, but that was back during the "GENEGGAARRR OP PLS NERF" phase of our ASB history, and instead we compensated by trait-ifying it. I'd like to bring up this suggestion once again, mostly because I enjoy meddling in game mechanics for no apparent reason.

We as a community (or rather, the Council) could brainstorm suitable abilities for said mons. To be honest, a lot of levitate mons are below average, and an extra ability could be just the umph that they need. Rough list of ideas that I came up with (a majority of them probably only make sense in my mind):

Gengar Line: Poison Touch, Infiltrator, Insomnia, Pickpocket
Weezing Line: Stench, Aftermath, Unaware
Mismagius Line: Frisk, Sniper
Unown: Wonder Skin, Magic Guard, Something super strongth
Flygon: Sand Force, Sand Veil, Serene Grace, Regenerator, Sand Rush
Lunatone: Sturdy, Solid Rock, Drizzle
Solrock: Sturdy, Solid Rock, Drought
Claydol Line: Sand Force, Telepathy, Magic Bounce
Duskull: Cursed Body for all teh ghostses
Chimecho Line: Soundproof, Filter, Serene Grace, Simple
Bronzong Line: ...
Carnivinve: Clorophyll duh, Leaf Guard, Sticky Hold, Hyper Cutter
Rotoms: Static, Motor Drive
Eelektross Line: Analytic, Volt Absorb
Cryogonal: Ice Body duh
Hydreigon Line: Defiant, Intimidate, KEEN EYE, Insomnia, Inner Focus

Yeah pretty much none of those made sense. Anyways, DISCUSS!

[ZhengTann]

Well, just thought I'd repost some issues that were slightly lost amidst radical fixing of Illuminate, debate for signatures/autographs, and current discussion of Forewarn.

Originally Posted by Fat TexPwne

Reff compensation sucks if battlers were DQ'ed.

Originally Posted by Fat CMFP

Time to decide if two-phase moves (i.e. Dig & Bounce) uses up energy at once, or split per phase of the move.

Add that to the current Forewarn discussion (which I think is really niche, IAR, given that dodges are rare and not failsafe - but I have no better proposal at the moment) plus Leethoof's Levitater changes (which has little ingame precedent but in flavor with the anime/manga)... Hurrah for Feedback activities :)

[Dogfish44]

Proposal 1 - Traits

---

Remove Trait status from Cloud Nine, Colour Change, Heavy Metal, Huge Power, Iron Fist, Levitate, Light Metal, Minus, Plus, Pure Power & Stench. Add: Trait status to Defeatist and Slow Start. This will mean that traits will be limited to those abilities which are negative, the original intent of traits.

Proposal 2 - Levitrait

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Proposal 2: Remove "Levitrait" from all Pokémon who have levitrait at the moment. This includes those who can levitate on command.

Proposal 3 - Wonder Guard

---

Remove the "Start with 60 HP" clause. Add that the ability cannot be skill swapped etc. as is the case in-game.

Proposal 4 - Leech Seed

---

Change draining from 1/30th HP to 3 HP.

Just tossing some ideas out there.

[UllarWarlord]

Originally Posted by Fat fogdish

Stuff about Traits, Levitrait in particular

Not to sound all high and mighty, but who are you to say that that is the original purpose of traits? Granted, I agree with the removal of everything you said, except for the underlined part. Levitrait.

Levitation is a common aspect in the Pokemon world, and I feel we must respect that, even if ingame did not give them abilities that blatantly state "THIS POKEMON IS FLOATING IN THE AIR".

If we get rid of Levitrait, then several Pokemon will make little sense. Azelf can't be hit by EQ, why should Klinklang? (just an example).

tl;dr Supporting all of df's proposals except the removal of Levitrait

[Gerard]

I see no reason to the change in Leech Seed, I find it hardly overpowered and there are very few pokes with enough Hp to steal 4 Hp per turn (and even less to 5, which is just Chansey and Blissey)

I support proposal 3 tough

[Dogfish44]

Originally Posted by Fat UllarWarlord

Not to sound all high and mighty, but who are you to say that that is the original purpose of traits?

This took a lot of digging through older posts, but the original 3 traits (Slow Start, Defeatist, Truant) all originally were innate, but were marked as always active. When the Trait class was introduced they were originally transferred over.

Granted, I agree with the removal of everything you said, except for the underlined part. Levitrait.

Levitation is a common aspect in the Pokemon world, and I feel we must respect that, even if ingame did not give them abilities that blatantly state "THIS POKEMON IS FLOATING IN THE AIR".

Well, there was a reason I underlined it since I knew outright it would cause more hassle than any other trait -_-'

If we get rid of Levitrait, then several Pokemon will make little sense. Azelf can't be hit by EQ, why should Klinklang? (just an example).

Since Klinklang's power of levitation is only enough to keep it airborne, and not enough to ignore the effects of a rapidly shaking ground (Which would likely disorient the levitating 'mon. This has been debated on IRC many times to no clear end.

Saying "It makes little sense" could act as justification for many pokemon to get many other abilities. Not a slippery slope I wish to go down myself - It wouldn't weaken the current levitate pokemon (Who would simply have it as an innate ability rather than a trait).

Originally Posted by Fat Gerard

I see no reason to the change in Leech Seed, I find it hardly overpowered and there are very few pokes with enough Hp to steal 4 Hp per turn (and even less to 5, which is just Chansey and Blissey )

I support proposal 3 tough

Removes complexity which is rather unneeded, that's pretty much it. Any mon with 110 - 135 HP is in the 4 HP range, which is a fair number as well:

Pokemon taking 4 DMG/A from Leech Seed

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Rampardos
Tropius
Honchkrow
Relicanth
Jellicent
Braviary
Happiny
Dunsparce
Swalot (Liquid Ooze but w/e)
Tangrowth
Noctowl
Tyranitar
Azumarill
Piloswine
Swampet
Skuntank
Audino
Exploud
Darmanitan
Kangaskhan
Conkeldurr
Seismitoad
Muk
Rhydon
Hippowdon
Garchomp
Stunfisk
Walrein
Whiscash
Mandibuzzz
Reuniclus
Mamoswine
Lickilicky
Emboar
Excadrill
Gastrodon
Amoongus
Jigglypuff
Rhyperior
Musharna
Throh
Lanturn
Vaporeon
Wailmer
Lapras
Munchlax
Wigglytuff
Hariyama
Slaking
Drifblim
Snorlax
Alolomola
Wailord
Wobbuffet
Krilowatt
Cyclohm

A large number above are immune for various reasons mind, but yeah.

[Matezoide]

I agree with Dogfish on Wonder Guard.

[Frosty]

I fully agree with Dogfish regarding traits (including Levitate), don't have an opinion about Wonder Guard and I think Leech Seed is fine as is.

4 abilities Klinklang on the Subway is just ridiculous. Also, this entire trait thinge seems EXTREMELY arbitrary. There is no ingame or manga/anime (although I don't watch those anymore, so I may be wrong) precedent of those traits. Before anyone says "but it floats above ground!", I recommend you check the EQ animations of Stadium and PBR. Any pokemon that isn't able to get some good altitude will be hit by the ground.

[Dogfish44]

Whilst I'm bringing up issues: Do we round speed when we raise/lower it, or round it (If so, how?). This is not addressed clearly anywhere I can see, and for some moves (Electro Ball and Gyro Ball come straight to mind) this could be worth a fair chunk of damage.

[Elevator Music]

In battle speed boosts are always truncated.

[Its_A_Random]

Actually, iirc, Levitate was the first ability to become a trait, so...In my opinion, I personally agree with changing the types of all abilities in question but Levitate. I mean, how is a Bronzong supposed to move in a zero/one ability match, lol. What about Lunatone & Solrock. . .So I would just keep Levitate as a Trait for flavour reasons.

Also, before Forewarn goes to the Council, I want to get some last opinions on the potential versions we could have...

Current

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective, OHKO, and explosive attacks, and has a percentage (%) chance to evade equal to one (1) plus (+) double (×2) the move's base attack power. This percentage chance (%) is applied to the attacking move's base accuracy.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Evasive Version

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents attacks, and tend to be more evasive in nature. When this Pokemon uses the Dodge command, the Evasion rate of Dodge is increased by a percentage (%) of one (1) plus (+) double (×2) the move's base attack power used by the opposing Pokemon targeting this Pokemon (The Dodge rate is still capped at 50%). When this Pokemon uses Evasive Agility or Evasive Teleport, this Pokemon will also evade moves that can target more than one Pokemon in addition to its current evasive properties.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Grazing Version

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents attacks, and tend to be more evasive in nature. When this Pokemon uses the Dodge command, Evasive Agility, or Evasive Teleport, if this Pokemon takes damage while using either command, then the final damage inflicted to this Pokemon is halved (×0.5).

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Anticipation Clone

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective, OHKO, and explosive attacks, and if hit by either move, then the BAP of that move is reduced by two (2).

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Either way could work, but I do not want no change, & I want to steer away from the Anticipation Clone thing, since Forewarn does not tell the user if they have super effective moves in game...Thoughts?

[Engineer Pikachu]

I actually made a post about traits sometime back here, which links to the original implementation of Traits if anyone is interested in the reason why they were made in the first place.

I like all of Dogfish's proposal, although I'd argue for keeping the Levitate command and giving the current Pokemon with the Levitate Trait the Levitate command instead, since honestly I don't see a lot of non-Flying yet winged Pokemon obviously capable of flight (e.g. Volcarona) getting hit by these attacks.

Also in-game pretty much everything has the floor function applied to it.

I've also got a proposal of my own that I posted some time back:

Proposal - Change the Reflect / Light Screen cap to affect all moves, not just combinations

---

copypasta let's goThere's not much reason why there should be a cap of -5 BAP on combinations, but not standard moves. In a Singles battle, Hydro Pump (12 BAP) suffers a reduction of 6 BAP while Water Spout (15 BAP) can suffer a reduction of up to 7.5 BAP, while something like Mega Brine (29.25 BAP) or Ember + Blast Burn (26.5 BAP) only suffers a reduction of 5 BAP.

Naturally the cap is there to make sure the Screen moves aren't overly powerful and some might even say that the cap is exclusive to combinations to keep them viable in an austere fashion, but it simply makes no sense.

[Pwnemon]

i completely agree with df's proposal, with engi's addendum

also i agree in all instances "not being bullshit" should 100% trump flavor, including in the case of levitate.

[Its_A_Random]

Remove Trait status from Cloud Nine, Colour Change, Heavy Metal, Huge Power, Iron Fist, Levitate, Light Metal, Minus, Plus, Pure Power & Stench. Add: Trait status to Defeatist and Slow Start. This will mean that traits will be limited to those abilities which are negative, the original intent of traits.

Agree with all bar Levitate. I can see why Levitate should be a Trait from a competitive perspective, but apparently Bronzong, Klinklang, & Stratagem are broken, because they have "more than one ability in a one ability battle". If you really wanted to nerf those, you could make it so that Pokemon with Levitate had to pick Levitate in one ability, but that would be a terrible solution, so...

Proposal 2: Remove "Levitrait" from all Pokémon who have levitrait at the moment. This includes those who can levitate on command.

I agree. Klinklang & Magnezone. Both can float in the anime. Klinklang gets Levitrait. Magnezone does not. Doing this basically restores consistency amongst what can levitate & what cannot. The Levitate Command thing Engineer suggested only maintains the inconsistency described through the Klinklang/Magnezone example.

Remove the "Start with 60 HP" clause. Add that the ability cannot be skill swapped etc. as is the case in-game.

Yeah, makes sense.

Change draining from 1/30th HP to 3 HP.

We make recovery moves & Rest, etc. deal flat damage as opposed to a percentage, so "why not"? Also, consistency.

copypasta let's goThere's not much reason why there should be a cap of -5 BAP on combinations, but not standard moves. In a Singles battle, Hydro Pump (12 BAP) suffers a reduction of 6 BAP while Water Spout (15 BAP) can suffer a reduction of up to 7.5 BAP, while something like Mega Brine (29.25 BAP) or Ember + Blast Burn (26.5 BAP) only suffers a reduction of 5 BAP.

Naturally the cap is there to make sure the Screen moves aren't overly powerful and some might even say that the cap is exclusive to combinations to keep them viable in an austere fashion, but it simply makes no sense.

As a user who hates inconsistency, I agree with this.

[Objection]

OK, looks like a lot went down while I was finishing up a bunch of assignments. Let's see what we've got here ...

• Dogfish44's first proposal: Support. Also I could've sworn Defeatist and Slow Start were once Traits instead of Innate. Am I imagining things or did someone change them to Innate?
• Dogfish44's second proposal: Support, as long as this does not get rid of the Levitate command and those pokemon that previously had Levitrait gain the Levitate command.
• Dogfish44's third proposal: Support. It's not like Shedinja is overpowering anything anyway since, outside of Caterpie, Wobbuffet and the like, everything can obtain at least one super effective move against it.
• Dogfish44's fourth proposal: Support. I know Leech Seed works based on the opponent's max HP in-game, but unless we make Leech Seed have a different leeching rate with every max HP value, we might as well just ignore that bit of in-game precedence.
• Engineer Pikachu's proposal: Support, especially since I got into a heated dispute with SDS when he introduced that rule.
• Forewarn stuff: I personally think Grazing Forewarn > Evasive Forewarn >>>>> Anticipation clone >>>>> current Forewarn, but I'm not really in the mood to argue right now, so ...

[Gerard]

Why not keep Levitrai, but make an objective criteria for Pokemon to be allowed to have it, I think something like:

Pokemon with Wings that are seen as flying as it's main medium of transport (be it spirits or Anime) get Levitrait
Pokemon without Wings that float (according to Anime precedent or other stuff) or have them but use them only on occasion get Levitate by command (maybe we should power it up to at least be the same as Magnet Rise so the change doesn't hit them too hard)

Thus erasing whatever is that makes Magnezone different to Klinklang and giving an measure so nobody can object as to why one mon gets it and another doesn't

[Matezoide]

Are game-move-errors avaliable for purchase?

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...me_move_errors

[Matezoide]

Ok, so we all know one thing:

Rock Smash sucks.

Rock Smash: The Pokemon smashes the ground or a free-standing boulder near the opponent, shattering it to pieces. The quick impact of the rocks can lower the opponent's Defense by one (1) stage.

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 50% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


While the likes of Gust and Rock Throw got a small boost to combos that makes them somewhat useful Rock Smash is still a terrible move (specialy given how stat drops arent that good here).
After talking about this on IRC, we reached 3 suggestions to make Rock Smash worth using.


Rock Smash: The Pokemon smashes the ground or a free-standing boulder near the opponent, shattering it to pieces. The quick impact of the rocks can lower the opponent's Defense by one (1) stage. If used against a rock type, it's BAP and energy cost are doubled.

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 50% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


This gives some Fighting coverage (To an extent) for pokemon that cant learn something better (Such as Kricketune, but then again, it is Kricketune.). To compare, a Rock Smash on a Rock type would be a Crunch clone with better chance to lower the Defense stat.
Flavor wise, the move's name implies it can Smash Rocks AND thats the move's whole point in game, so an extra effect on Rock types makes sense.


Another suggestion is this:

Rock Smash: The Pokemon smashes the ground or a free-standing boulder near the opponent, shattering it to pieces. The quick impact of the rocks can lower the opponent's Defense by one (1) stage. The impact prevents Sturdy from working for 6 Actions.

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 50% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


Given how most Rock types have Sturdy, that also makes sense flavor wise and makes the move much more useful.


On the other hand, we can change Rock-Smash so it doubles the final BAP if used in a combo with a fighting move (Like Gust does for wind-based moves).


Thoughts?

[Pwnemon]

so

i'd really love to see the council address a couple of things - first, we need to address ref compensation in case of player dq. the current situation is frankly shit, and refs always get undercompensated for their time. if the council doesn't do something about this i will personally murder you all >:l

secondly we need to implement df's proposals that turn levitate from a plague back into an ability, or at least discuss them in a council thread, because levitrait 4 everyone is bs

[zarator]

Before you start reading this, I want to make clear a few things:
1) This post is being written in the wake of an IRC discussion with several ASBers which happened yesterday, not because got hit on the head today while tidying up my room
2) This post will probably stir up a shitstorm. So, please, don't try to gutrip me, don't jump to conclusions, and stay reasonable. Please read everything I will say before replying.

Most of you are probably aware of the big mess CAP 4 has been, due to BMB's questionable leadership. The first thing which dawned to my mind (and not just to me, I believe), is that Aurumoth is potentially very broken for ASB. Let's take a look at stats first:

Bug/Psychic

HP 110
Atk: Rank 5
Def: Rank 4
SpA: Rank 4
Spe: Rank 2
Spe 94
Size Class: 4
Weight Class: 5

Abilities: Weak Armor, No Guard, Illusion

The first thing that is immediately apparent is Aurumoth's beastly offensive potential. If it runs a Quiet Nature (which is hardly an issue, thanks to No Guard), it reaches 5/5 offenses, backed by a defensive layout that rivals Dragonite's one (who indeed boasts the same offensive stats). Now, why would Aurumoth push the edge, unlike Dragonite? The answers are many, actually:

1) Illusion: This is the biggest worry in my opinion. Aurumoth has the full potential to completely disrupt any Pokemon treating him as the wrong Pokemon... and there are a LOT of Pokemon Aurumoth can disguise as which have the same destructive potential (Most Fighting types, many Steel types, several Rock types, etc)
2) Movepool: A simple comparison between Aurumoth and Dragonite shows how the former is on a whole new level from ASB's perspective:

Physical movepoolAt a first glance, it's obvious that Dragonite's movepool is larger. It also gets a few assets Aurumoth misses out on (priority, Brick Break, Dragon Tail, Bulldoze/Earthquake to name a few), but as far as sheer power goes, Aurumoth probably has a (small) edge over Dragonite here. STAB Megahorn, backed by No Guard, outshines absolutely everything Dragonite can muster, even because Bug has a much better supereffective coverage than Dragon (and SE coverage > Neutral coverage in ASB, from my experience). But it doesn't end here. Dragonite may have Superpower, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and so on... but Aurumoth has Close Combat, and this alones means a lot (not to mention Feint and its utility in Doubles). Still, all things considered, Dragonite may have an overall edge in this area (Sky Drop, Dive, and Fly can't be underestimated), but Aurumoth isn't very far behind.

Special movepool

Again, Dragonite's movepool is undeniably larger. It also gets a VERY powerful STAB in Hurricane, and Aurumoth has little to oppose in this sense (although with the recent fixes, Psychic is not far behind, and a lot more reliable). But once again, coverage comparison is very tricky. Aurumoth may miss out on Fire-type moves, but it gets Solarbeam, Hydro Pump, Shadow Ball... and basically everything else Dragonite can boast - Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast... you got the picture. While I was willing to say Dragonite has a better physical movepool, I believe Aurumoth gets the edge when it comes to special offense.

Support movepool

As you may expect, this is the tiebreaker - and a tiebreaker which is completely onesided. First of all, let's look at what Dragonite has over Aurumoth: Agility, Bide, Detect, Endure, Haze, Heal Bell, Sandstorm, Thunder Wave... there are some assets here, indeed.
But what happens if we look at what Aurumoth has over Dragonite? Heal Pulse, Wish, Counter (I know technically it is a physical attack but whatever), Disable, Ally Switch, Will-O-Wisp, Magic Coat, Skill Swap, Trick... and I didn't even mention everything! A lot of ASB's big hits are here, and this includes a lot of disruptive moves which can go wonderfully with Illusion and that kickass offense to secure an immediate advantage for Aurumoth from the getgo.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, let's take a deep breath. I haven't written this thread to discuss Aurumoth's brokenness (or not such). What's interesting, though, is the conclusion that spurred from the first debate about CAP 4. It quickly became apparent to a lot of us (I'm referring to the IRC convo) that there was something inevitably off between CAP and ASB.

To put it as briefly as possible, CAP doesn't make Pokemon taking ASB into account. This is obvious, but it also means that, realistically, we have absolutely no assurance that a CAP can or can't break ASB, because the two systems are so different that something crucial in CAP can be worthless in ASB and viceversa (Consider Quiver Dance and Magic Coat or Disable, for example). It shouldn't come as a surprise, therefore, that a CAP which is balanced in itself could be too much for ASB, and viceversa. The two systems are just too different, as I already said.

Someone could say "But no Pokemon has been created for the ASB mechanics!". And it is true. Someone in IRC mentioned this as well. But consider the following three points:

1) Our tiering system (I'm using this word in a loose meaning of "what's available to us") is very different from Smogon's, and funnily enough, much closer to GF than theirs. This is a natural consequence of the radically different systems. Smogon may find Excadrill overwhelming, but no ASBer in his right mind would think the same thing within ASB. The same is true for Blaziken, etc. On the contrary, many of the legendaries Smogon allows in OU (Like Landorus, Terrakion, Cresselia, Kyurem, etc) would be VERY dangerous in ASB if ever released.
2) In the metagame CAP works for there are a lot of Pokemon which are unavailable (mostly) in ASB. For example, the gap in power between OU's Electric-types and ASB's Electric-types is appalling (right, Dogfish?^^)
3) When the ASB system was first created, we did consider the existing Pokemon, and tuned the mechanics to make sure they couldn't be overwhelming. Maybe Pokemon weren't made with ASB in mind, but ASB was certainly made with Pokemon in mind. The same thing obviously can't be said about any future CAP which could be created.

I hope this extended answer clarifies why I believe CAP creations have a sort of "special place" in our discussion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, on to the main point of this post. Our system has been generally referred to as CAP ASB. With CAP meaning, generally, the addition of the Pokemon created by the CAP process. These Pokemon, however, are often more of a source of problems than anything else, because of the reasons I stated above. Not to mention all the rumors about ASB influencing the CAP process and viceversa that ran amok in the past months. Therefore, I want to make the following proposal.

Let's sever our boundaries with the CAP process

This means, in practice, stop adding CAPs to the ASB meta. For the sake of common sense, I'd allow the ones up to Mollux to be kept - if anything because of how many ppl already own them etc. But for the future, I suggest we take either of the following two avenues:

1) We "freeze" the metagame, and stop adding Pokemon altogether besides what GF gifts us with. This is perhaps the simplest solution, but not the most exciting. Plus, aside from the existing CAPs, it wouldn't offer much of a reason for us to keep calling ourselves CAP ASB. This would be the best solution if we want to take a "less CAP ASB, more ASB" route.

2) We start a CAP creation process of our own, aimed for the ASB metagame. This is the most radical proposal, which attempts to save the "CAP" concept of ASB while stopping to add CAP creations as explained above. It is not my intention here to tackle such a big proposal all in a single post (how would we structure the process? Would we use threads or another subforum/social group? Would we get artists/spriters to support the project? How would we treat leadership? etc etc...), but I want to clarify two things:
- This is the proposal I personally favor over the aforementioned one.
- I believe there are strong reasons for running such a project within ASB, as well as little reasons to fear a backlash for the rest of Smogon.

Give me just some more lines to elaborate the second point. I honestly believe ASB is a much deeper game than in-game Pokemon. The array of viable abilities, moves, items, types, Pokemon altogether has no comparisons in any other meta. As such, not only there would be a LOT to discuss in terms of concepts and ideas, but we would have less problems in terms of overcentralization and overpower.

Let's say that, at a certain point, there are 50 Pokemon in OU. If you add 5-10 CAPs to that - all designed to be OU - the metagame will change drastically, because of the sheer number proportions. Not only that, but to make sure those CAPs can actually get enough usage to sit comfortably in OU you would have to make them quite beastly - as most CAPs are or have been in their first inception. This is not true in ASB. ASB has a metagame of 150 or more viable Pokemon at the very least, and adding 10 CAPs (over a span of, say, 2 years) would hardly change the meta dramatically. Not only that, but to get actual usage, these CAPs wouldn't need to be anywhere as overpowered as their OU counterparts, and there would be a lot more room for experimentation and originality. Just ask yourselves: would ASB be very different without the current CAPs, metagame-wise? If so, how could the addition of another 10 CAPs, which would be nowhere as powerful as the current ones, alter it in a bad sense (especially when compared to keep adding OU CAP creations).

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This is all... for now. This post is already insanely long, there's a lot to discuss and for what I may know, DK or someone else could jump out of nowhere and veto the entire thing. Or I could get a bunch of insults and be forced to drop the question in less than 24h. So for now I'll leave the post as it is now: a sort of input (no matter how big-looking) to the entire community, to gauge any interest in what could be the biggest chance ever introduced in ASB since its inception over a year ago... and a way to involve more people in the discussion we had over IRC, as well as a way for IRC ppl to state their opinions in a more thought-out way.

Let the shitstorm begin.

[Complications]

You know, I can understand where Zarator is coming from here. Right now, I can't say I have an opinion on the proposal of cutting ties with CAP, however, I can say that if it where to happen, I would support option two. I think part of the excitement of ASB is when new CAPmons do come in, and I'd we released CAPmon ino the game based on our own lost of requirements, it would uphold that level of excitement and freshness.

[TIO]

I support proposal 2, and doing the CAP ASB project the same way as the CAP project.
As for project leaders, I would say generally, anybody on the council or somebody chosen by said council.

[Frosty]

To be entirely honest, I can't see why we need to have a constant influx of new mons in ASB to make it fun.

Neither of the mons introduced to ASB since its creation produced any kind of big whoop, at least not to me. We continued playing the game just like before, just with more pokemon, but it didn't change at all the way we played the game or made it any more or less fun, at least IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I really like CAP and the CAPs (I watch the process ever since Revenankh), but they aren't the reason we do ASB. The CAP project aims to know more about the metagame by creating new pokemon to explore other aspects about it and for that the new pokemon are essential, obviously. ASB aims to give its player a pokemon game that isn't the pokemon we all know. For that, new pokemon are 100% irrelevant. If you get them, great. If you don't, great as well.

If you choose to sever our boundaries with CAP (decision 1) and create our own fakemon project (decision 2) we will have a really big risk of the fakemon project overtaking the Battling part. In other words, I think there is a HUGE chance an ASB fakemon project ending up derailing everything. We would be another CAP that happen to do their own weird version of pokemon as well.

I don't mean to sound negative, but in the end, we will spend a big amount of energy creating a new pokemon (CAP is there to prove that it isn't something easy...at all) that will add...very little to how we play ASB.

Honestly? I have mixed feeling about cutting boundaries with CAP, but I am 150% sure that creating our own fakemon project is a bad and, more importantly, dangerous idea. Really dangerous. And I don't think we are ready for the risks such project has.