NU CCAT 2: Step 3

[tennisace]

Hi there.

Originally Posted by Fat rules n stuff nobody reads this

Step 1: We are going to start by picking which Pokemon (and set) we are going to be basing the team around. This does NOT mean the Pokemon has to be the late game sweeper, it means the team will be built around that Pokemon, whatever role it plays. This thread is for nominating Pokemon to be added to a poll. After a couple of days (probably around one-two days, until enough pokemon are in the poll (around 10)), I will select which Pokemon are going to be in the poll that will be posted after we decide on a list of Pokemon. This means you have to convince me, and others, that your Pokemon is worth being put in the vote.

Step 2: We select what style of team we want to make. This will likely include something along the lines of Offense, Bulky Offense, Stall, Weather, Trick Room, and possibly more.

Step 3: We select Pokemon that work well around our Pokemon and fit the team style and test it.

Step 4: We finalize the team and write up a 5-star RMT!
Please stay on topic. This thread is meant to create discussion but lets keep it civil gents and ladies!!

So by a margin of like 3, Serperior wins! IRV is really complicated to tally so fuck it next time I'm going with a poll.

Sorry for the extreme late, I've been running around like crazy the last few days. Now we have to decide the teammates for Serperior, within the style of Spike-Stacking Offense. Keep in mind, we're only talking about the SubCoil Serperior set, shown fully here.


Serperior (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Overgrow
Adamant (+Atk,-Sp Atk)
Evs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Coil
move 3: Leaf Blade
move 4: Dragon Tail

I'll probably post my thoughts after the discussion gets going a bit, but obviously we'll need hazards setters and other Pokemon to take advantage of these spikes/tspikes/sr. I'll let this go for a while, until discussion wanes.

[Axa]

So are we discussing the types of teammates for the team (hazard setter, tank, etc.) or naming specific Pokes?

[Alex_Arthur]

Well to actually set up spikes we don't actually have that many options, especially if we want to avoid type redundancy. A fast Garbodor or Glaile are our best options. Personally I prefer Garbodor since he generally serves a purpose outside of setting up spikes unlike Glaile.

Garbodor
Stench / Weak Armour
Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 Something
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Gunk Shot
Body Slam / Explosion / Payback / Clear Smog / Acid Spray

Random flinchs from Stench are quite nice but we might want to opt for a quick sucide spiking. The forth move is pretty much filler but they all have some merit.

[Lord of the Fireflies]

@Eviolite
Shell Armor
Bold - 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
- Spikes
- Recover
- Yawn / Toxic
- Struggle Bug / Bug Buzz / Final Gambit

This little guy here can stop a lot of physical sweepers in their tracks, with an awesome defense with Eviolite and access to Recover. Meanwhile, it sets up Spikes and shuffles the opposing team (as well as a possibility of aiding set-up) with Yawn, or deal with opposing walls with Toxic. The last moveslot is mostly filler. Struggle Bug softens hits from special attackers such as Haunter and Kadabra, Bug Buzz can deal some damage and Final Gambit is useful when you're done Spiking and want to leave with a bang.

[Machineae]

^ I would recommend against Shelmet. While it can usually do its job and get up spikes, it can't do a thing outside of it besides toxic (assuming the opposing poke isn't under a sub already.) It was definitely given some exposure (in this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3462637 ) and shown that it can't do anything outside of spiking.

Originally Posted by Fat Alex_Arthur

Well to actually set up spikes we don't actually have that many options, especially if we want to avoid type redundancy. A fast Garbodor or Glaile are our best options. Personally I prefer Garbodor since he generally serves a purpose outside of setting up spikes unlike Glaile.

Garbodor
Stench / Weak Armour
Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 Something
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Gunk Shot
Body Slam / Explosion / Payback / Clear Smog / Acid Spray

Random flinchs from Stench are quite nice but we might want to opt for a quick sucide spiking. The forth move is pretty much filler but they all have some merit.

I recommend rock blast in the fourth slot, it will definitely help with those lead ninjasks who think they can set up while you put hazards. It gets the x4 damage and will most likely kill with a single turn.

[col49]

yeah, obvious garbodor is obvious, plus tspikes have basically officially been proven to be awesome in nu, but i dunno if speed is really necessary :/ at most i'd aim for that "outspeed adamant torterra" line, which goes at about 112 evs. also, i disagree with weak armour, cuz thats just sorta dropping any chance of him coming in and taking anything from sawk. personally, i've tryed a more offensive garbodor before, and it looked a little like this:
Garbodor (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Stench
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Gunk Shot
- Rock Blast
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes

not gonna lie, i occasionally yanked some attack evs out to speed creep, but thats not really the point :P anywayz, this set is pretty darn effective in my past experiences with it, though you can certainly notice the difference in bulk.

[Amarillo]

OK, because otherwise Garbodor's obviously going to win:


@Eviolite
Shell Armor
Bold Nature, 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Scald
- Hidden Power (Rock)

An unorthodox and dubious choice for a spiker, I know, but it doesn't sound all that bad.

Sets up 2 hazards of choice vs. Birds that Serperior doesn't like to face. I thought that Tspikes were the most expendable given that Grass-types like Amoongus / Vileplume counters Serperior and absorbs Tspikes at the same time, but Tspikes can go over SR if we can fit in another SR user or something. I can claim 'synergy' in the combination, because Omanyte resists Fire, Ice, Flying & Poison while Serperior resists Ground, Electric, and Grass, so they cover their weaknesses alright. (But don't be fooled because Omanyte can't really handle Fire-types, while Serperior doesn't handle Grass-types.) I thought Ice Beam should be the filler of choice given that it lures in Grassers (and it can do some damage with 90 base Special Attack) but we don't want Jynx setting up, right?

[Buckles]

God Omanyte is cute.

Anyway, the only other viable spiker in the tier is Glalie, so here's one of those.

Glalie (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Inner Focus
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Spikes
-Taunt
-Explosion
-Crunch

Crunch is there to surprise Jynx, the rest is pretty standard. Garbodor is the only real option here though.

[DTC]

Here are all our options for Spikes:

• Cacturne
• Garbodor
• Omanyte
• Whirlipede
• Glalie
• Shelmet
• Maractus
• Pineco
• Budew
• Dwebble

Here are all our options for Toxic Spikes:

• Garbodor
• Tentacool
• Omanyte
• Whirlipede
• Beedrill
• Ariados
• Nidorino
• Nidorina
• Venonat

Most of these are pretty bad. The only good Pokemon for Spikes, imo, are Cacturne, Garbodor, Omanyte, Whirlipede, Glalie, and Shelmet. The viable list for Toxic Spikes users is even shorter; I'd honestly only consider using Garbodor, Tentacool, Omanyte, AND MAYBE Whirlipede for Toxic Spikes.

Now, we should decide on which one of these we want to do. I think we should do one that's creative, still viable, and synergies well with Serperior. I think the best one out of this list is Omanyte. Amarillo makes a very good case for it, and even has multiple hazards. It's quite bulky, has some useful resistances, and isn't weak offensively. I used it quite a lot for some time, and it does pretty well. It can only set-up on certain Pokemon, but it's still fairly good at setting up hazards. Garbodor is the next obvious choice, and we'll all know it's great, so I think we should try out the lesser-used option in Omanyte!

[Raikaria]

Spikes:
Cacturne - No bulk. Shares Grass typing with Serperior

Garbodor - Covers Serperior's weakness to Poision, and Ground weakness gives switch-in chances. Also absorbs T-Spikes, and can set them up

Omanyte - Covers Serperior's Flying, Ice and Fire weaknesses. Can also set up Stealth Rock.

Whirlipede - It can take down opposing Grass types if it has to, and can set up T-Spikes, Spikes, and absorb T-Spikes. Bad type synergy.

Glalie - Ice can muscle past Grass and Flying, provideing OFFENSIVE synergy, although Fire weakness is exploitable. Glalie is primarilly used in a suicide fashion, and can only set Spikes.

Shelmet - Recover, completely unable to do anything damageing outside Toxic, bad type synergy with Serperior.

Maractus - Worse Cacturne

Pineco - Bulky, but is basically a worse Shelmet.

Budew - LOLNO

Dwebble - Can set up SR and Spikes. Sturdy. Rock typing gives a Water weakness which Serperior might be able to exploit.

The viable list is:
Garbodor, Omanyte, Glalie, Dwebble and Shelmet. Everything else outright sucks, except Whirlipede, who just has failed synergy, and would leave us wide open to Birds and Fire.

Note of those except Garbodor can set T-Spikes, however, I feel Stealth Rock is more important, especially when you consider the Birds, Magmortar and Jynx are going to be the things that will want to come in on Serperior. Those things happen to all take 25%+ from SR [Articuno and the Bug/Flying types take 50%].

My personal vote goes to either Omanyte or Dwebble.

[DTC]

Originally Posted by Fat Raikaria

My personal vote goes to either Omanyte or Dwebble.

I was thinking about using Dwebble, but it isn't very appealing. It doesn't resist any of Serperior's weaknesses, is weak to Stealth Rock, can't set up on as much as Omanyte thanks to its slightly lower bulk and less useful resistances/immunities, and can't do much damage if it needs to attack. At least Omanyte has a respectable 90 base Special Attack, while Dwebble only has base 65 Attack.

If we really want Stealth Rock and don't want to use Omanyte, we can always use a different Pokemon for setting it up.

[Raikaria]

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

I was thinking about using Dwebble, but it isn't very appealing. It doesn't resist any of Serperior's weaknesses, is weak to Stealth Rock, can't set up on as much as Omanyte thanks to its slightly lower bulk and less useful resistances/immunities, and can't do much damage if it needs to attack. At least Omanyte has a respectable 90 base Special Attack, while Dwebble only has base 65 Attack.

If we really want Stealth Rock and don't want to use Omanyte, we can always use a different Pokemon for setting it up.

I was thinking Dwebble could lure Water-type attacks, but, to be honest, you don't need to hit Dwebble SE to take it out.

Yes, Omanyte is probobly the better solution, especially as it draws Grass, Ground and Electric attacks like a magnet.

[Ewil]

Omanyte sounds perfect, maybe we must discuss if we need another team member for setting up SR, or lets this duty to Omanyte.
Omanyte can learn even T-spikes, so, if we put SR on another mon, Oma can setup Spikes+T-spikes :D

[tennisace]

So right now it seems our choices are between Omanyte and Garbodor (I would advocate Toxic Spikes > Stealth Rock on Omanyte solely because SR can be on a lot of PKMN). Personally, I'm leaning towards Omanyte. Serperior can take on some of the Grass-types that fuck with Omanyte, though we'll need more teammates to round out coverage. In addition, Omanyte checks the birds which Serperior doesn't like at all.

So let's vote. Bold vote, just bold your choice. Omanyte or Garbodor.

[Straw Hat]

I was going to say we hold off the spiker part of the team until Crustle drops, but we can do that in the revising/whatever part.
Omanyte

[col49]

stickin' by me guns, and i'd rather have a tspike absorber to be safe
garbodor gogogo

[Machineae]

Garbrodor.

[Hamme Van]

Omanyte

[DTC]

Omanyte

I've already provided my reasons for this earlier in the thread.

But, I guess I'll say this, why don't we try different stuff? Garbodor has been used so much!

[Raseri]

Garbodor

[Lady Shinki]

Omanyte

[Nubagator]

Omanyte

[Molk]

Omanyte


omanyte is the master race

[Endorfins]

Agreeing with Col49 here as T-Spikes ruin Serperior and there are few other viable Poison-types or Rapid Spinners to choose from.
Garbodor

[Keiran]

Omanyte