Balanced Hackmons

[DTC]

Originally Posted by Fat AfroThunderRule

Hmm, I wonder how viable Arena Trap is in this metagame. Yes Shadow Tag is "superior" but Arena Trap can trap other Shadow Tag Pokemon which in my experience are becoming more and more common.

heh, how cute. Not many Flying-types are around either, and Levitate Pokemon are pretty much non-existent other than teambuilding mistakes. However, this still seems pretty niche. You have to ask yourself what is more useful: trapping Flying-types (Lugia, Ho-Oh, mainly) or trapping Pokemon with the ability Shadow Tag? This strategy also wouldn't work well if everyone started to use Arena Trap Pokemon, although I doubt that will happen.

The tournament that Imanalt talked about was fun. I got knocked out pretty quickly thanks to hax and a few misplay's, but Sap Sipper Shift Gear Rhydon was fun as hell. You don't care about Spore's, you lose a 4x weakness, you are physically bulkier than Giratina, you have a great Attack stat backed by a brilliant offensive typing, as well as a few other useful attributes. Rhydon has a lot of potential in Balanced Hackmons; I want to see it used more.

Another Pokemon that has potential in Balanced Hackmons is Shaymin-S. Shaymin-S is incredibly fast and quite powerful, although a bit frail. I was using a set that is very similar to common Shaymin-S sets: Sub / Roost (obvious difference) / Seed Flare / Air Slash with Serene Grace and a Life Orb attached. It probably isn't the best set, but it haxed through a bunch of people and did well even without haxing. Roost is an excellent move on Shaymin-S. It's a shame that Shaymin-S can't learn it other than in Hackmons.

[Imanalt]

If you're running arena trap, you likely want to be very sure of sr support, since this will really hurt non magic guard on the mons you arent trapping.
DTC: i dont see quite what skymin has over mewtwo other than typing, which isnt really much better...
rhydon certainly has potential, especially since water attacks (except your fucked up surfgira) are very rare. My concern with rhydon is that without sand support it will die to just about any special attack in BH.

[verbatim]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

lol bh ladder means nothing, it bugged out a while ago (unless it recently fixed itself)

My comments on the tourney:
It was very bizarre in a lot of ways:
I knocked verb out in first round and then he left, i was using a test team, dtc was using a test team, and aldaron was using my and dtc's old teams.
Due to some crazy hax + a coupel of surprise gimmicks (*COUGH* SURF GIRA*COUGH*) i lost to aldaron first time, but tbh my new test team just dominated...
I found what may be the first contrary mon i have ever believed legitimate:
Dialga @scarf
Modest Nature
Contrary
Volt Switch
Draco Meteor
Overheat
Filler
Think scarfmoxie mence in ou, but a lot scarier. I think it 2hko's the entire tier with the correct use of dmeteor or overheat, and its speed lets it outrun essentially everything.
it is very useful for its ability to beat nonscarfed blissey 1v1.
I may edit in some more details later, but those were the only really notable things i experienced

Also i HAVE to mention that i actually got a kill with my final gambit imposter bliss vs verbatim (trolololololol)

You left out the part where I got the next kill with Copycat Final Gambit Giratina... that was a messed up fight.

[DTC]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

If you're running arena trap, you likely want to be very sure of sr support, since this will really hurt non magic guard on the mons you arent trapping.
DTC: i dont see quite what skymin has over mewtwo other than typing, which isnt really much better...
rhydon certainly has potential, especially since water attacks (except your fucked up surfgira) are very rare. My concern with rhydon is that without sand support it will die to just about any special attack in BH.

Then you're not looking at the whole picture. They are both special sweepers, however that does not mean that they both are identical. Shaymin-S aims to abuse Special Defense drops from the extremely powerful Seed Flare attack by flinching the Pokemon to death. I agree that Mewtwo gives quite a lot of competition to Shaymin-S, but not that it makes Shaymin-S practically unviable.

Water attacks are not extremely rare, by the way. Choice Specs Adaptability Palkia is rapidly increasing in usage, especially on the increasingly popular rain teams. Dry Skin Rhydon was an option I considered, as it gives you a significant boost in the rain, but Sap Sipper gives you an attack boost and allows you to block Spores. Grass attacks are probably less common than water attacks not counting Spore.

[Gerard]

Little question, can Flower Gift be used in pokemon other than Cherrim?, I was hoping to use it in a sun team that abuses it to set up Arceus but I don't know if it works, also, been using Chlorophyll Chandelure and I have to say it's pretty awesome as a late game sweeper

[Arcticblast]

Are Pure Power and Huge Power still legal on Medicham and Azumarill, sort of like how Wonder Guard is still allowed on Shedinja?

[tehy]

Well arctic, azu/medicham has a bad attack, but shedinja has One hp, sort of a big difference-lots of pokemon have low attack, but no other ones have one hp. Besides, is there really a reason to have that? Pure power azumarill or medicham aren't any better than any other physical sweeper in balanced hackmons.

[Gerard]

One set that I've been using for a while:



Arceus @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
Jolly (+Spe, - SpA)
- Coil
- Earthquake / Hi Jump Kick
- Facade
- Crunch / Outrage

This set abuses Arceus Bulk and it's normal typing to create an pretty powerful sweeper, almost nothing can beat Arceus 1v1, and with those defenses and Poison Heal you can be pretty darn durable, without a boost Slaking's ExtremeSpeed does about >20% (after PH recovery) which means unless he is a Belly Drum version he's set up bait, and with Flower Gift help he can tank even more hits in the special side, and with the increase with Toxic Spike this set only became all the more effective

Facade it's the obvious STAB that thanks to Poison Heal gives you a 210 BP move with no drawbacks, Coil is obviously to set up, as it patches HJK's accuracy problems and it can help with random acc drops, still Earthquake can be used to avoid being revenged by Blissey since if she's not statused she becomes set up bait, and it hits pokemon such as Metagross and Jirachi harder (while still maintining enough power to KO Dialga and not screwing you with protect users), still HJK it's still stronger, and Blissey can be overcomed with a ghost type with some prediction (like using Shadow Tag Giratina), Crunch is coverage as it 2HKOes Giratina at +1 (and she can't really do anything back), but Outrage it's an option as it 2HKOes Unaware Giratina (which Crunch fails to)

[M BLADE]

What about a status inducer?

Something with No Guard as ability and Zap Cannon/Inferno/Dynamicpunch/recovery as attacks?
The problem is finding something bulky enough that has STAB on any of these moves. The bulkiest poke is Ho-oh, which seems to be the best option.

[Gerard]

Many pokes run Lum Berry so that limits you since you have to hit them twice, and Ho-oh is a bit frail if you're not running Magic Guard, It could work a lot better if you can use Toxic Spikes Support to get rid of Lum so the status that hits them is the one you want to, and Rapid Spin support, also you have to predict corectly since Paralysis won't do that much to slaking while burning won't stop Latios

[Cobraroll]

Just mentioning some far-out abilities here...

It just struck me that Normalize Slaking would get STAB on everything. While it wouldn't be able to hit anything super-effectively, or touch ghosts at all, it could be used to bluff a Choice Band and surprise a couple of would-be checks. Useful?

In another vein, slow Pokémon such as Tyranitar or to some extent Groudon sure would appreciate an Analytic boost. More power to pile up on their already formidable attack stats.

Forecast could definitely shake things up a bit. Pick your favourite all-out Special berzerker, say Mewtwo, he could get a few interesting STABs with this ability (Hydro Pump, V-Create, Blizzard...). A shame it doesn't activate in sandstorms, though.

Illusion gets really, really interesting if you slap it on multiple Pokémon. Definitely a way to play mind games. Shame you have to forgo a more useful ability for it, though.

Mummy is a rather unorthodox method of permanently stripping the opponents' Pokémon of their ability. Unlike Mold Breaker, Mummy's effect keeps working after the inducer switches out, and actually is contagious.

Contrary has been discussed a lot here already. But there's a combination I've yet to see here: Contrary + Entrainment. Goodbye, Setup Sweeper!

Speaking of Setup Sweepers, some of them sure could appreciate Simple.

With Skill Link, the following moves have 125 base power: Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Bullet Seed & Bone Rush (and Tail Slap, but meh). They are all physical, with an accuracy of 90% (RB, BR) or 100% (the two other). They break Substitutes, Sturdy, and with a King's Rock attached, have a 50% chance of making the foe flinch. Could this be utilized by something?

Two key words for Tinted Lens: No resistance.

[verbatim]

The issue with Skill Link is that Magic Guard Life Orb/Adaptability/etc outclass it, especially considering how many 125+ bp STAB moves are available.

That being said Normalize Slaking looks really interesting.

[Tobes]

Illusion is also worth noting for blocking Imposter while active. For example,Blissey is now incapable of revenge killing Belly Drum Slaking if its Illusion isn't broken first. It's also useful for throwing people off on how they normally handle an existing threat; for example, generally the game plan against a Dialga is much different from how you would handle Shedinja. This can really open up set-up opportunities or surprise KOs.

[Gyro]

Any idea for make a moveset for Slaking with Flame Orb, Guts and Facade?

[windwolf777]

Originally Posted by Fat MrChimera573

One set that I have been having fun with:

Deoxys-A @ Focus Sash
Simple, Rash Nature
Shell smash
Protect
Extremespeed
Stored Power

This thing is a beast. After a shell smash, it literally OHKO's everything in the game, including Girantina. (Non-Unaware everything that is) Stored power is just insane after a shell smash, and protect allows me to scout for priority stuff.

This set absolutely NEEDS Magic bounce support. I like to use girantina myself.

Just saying, Tomb and Bly. I've only seen the former, but still

[Gerard]

Originally Posted by Fat Gyro

Any idea for make a moveset for Slaking with Flame Orb, Guts and Facade?

Slaking @ Toxic Orb / Flame Orb
Trait: Guts
Jolly (+Spe, - SpA)
- ExtremeSpeed / Slack Off
- Earthquake / Hi Jump Kick
- Facade
- Crunch

Toxic Orb is better if you're staying <3 rounds, otherwse use Flame Orb, HJK hits harder, but you're week to being revenged by Blissey, which gets remedied by EQ, but then you're walled by levitating steel types, ES is for Priority but Slack Off lets you use your bulk btter and serve as a status absorber later in the game

[tehy]

Why not just kill facade from that set? Then you'd have:

Slaking@ Flame orb
Trait:Guts
Jolly(+Spe, -Spa)
-Extremespeed
-Crunch
-Hi Jump Kick/Earthquake
-Slack off/Earthquake

Honestly, considering you're probably not switching this out after one/two turns, i think flame orb is way better. Slack off is pretty great for a set like this IMO, but i guess you could go all out. The power in facade is nice, but most things don't take normal-type hits from slaking in the first place, no?

[Gyro]

Is possible make a list of Pokémon can tank a Facade from Guts-Toxic/Flame Orb Slaking?

[tehy]

I suppose it's possible, but the point i'm making is that e-speed is base 120, facade when poisoned is base 210. Why burn a precious move-slot for 90 base power?

Personally, i think what'd be interesting is a shift gears set with facade. That might not need e-speed, if it had bulk to take ursaring's attacks, and then it could possibly sweep.

[DTC]

Hey guys, try to add more substance to your posts. This thread has been really lacking in that. I'm sure you have much more to say than just one line.

I've tried many different Guts Slaking sets... here is the one I had the most success with.


Slaking
Trait: Guts
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- ExtremeSpeed
- Facade
- Hi Jump Kick

Fake Out gives Slaking a free turn to activate Toxic Orb and can also be very useful when revenging set-up sweepers. ExtremeSpeed is even stronger priority and is a big reason in why you're using Slaking in the first place. Facade is amazing and you really shouldn't be using Guts Slaking without it. There is no reason to replace it for coverage moves such as Crunch for Giratina when it hits most other Pokemon a ton harder. Slack Off is also pointless on a Pokemon that loses a lot of health each turn that needs all of the moveslots it can get. Guts Facade actually hits harder than Pure Power ExtremeSpeed. Hi Jump Kick hits Rock/Steel-types who resist Normal.

This Slaking dies pretty quickly and will be switching out a lot, which is why Toxic Orb is best on Slaking. It gets walled by Ghost-types but what can you do? It will be doing a ton of damage to everything that isn't a Ghost-type with Fake Out + Facade.

Shift Gear Slaking might be fun. Something like Shift Gear / Facade / Hi Jump Kick / Crunch @ Flame Orb could be very effective. Someone should try it out. Slaking / Regigigas need to see more usage. I saw a severe drop in them after Pure Power was banned but they are still useful.

[Iceydude168]

I've recently fallen in love with No Guard Thundurus.

Thundurus
Trait: No Guard
Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
- Zap Cannon
- Blizzard
- Inferno
- Recover / Roost

This guy is cool :3 Thundurus brings BoltBeam to the field, however with No Guard I can abuse high-powered annoying moves such as Inferno and Zap Cannon with 100% accuracy and 100% chance of an irritating status that might shut down a sweeper. Recover recovers lost HP from priority such as Shedinja (who will almost DEFINITELY switch in but will lose to Inferno, make sure you predict correctly since Zap Cannon will prevent it from getting Burn status), however Roost can be used to stall out slower Pokemon that use Ice or Rock moves.

[Krabmeat]

I'd really love to see a write-up of some sets somewhere. Maybe sans the mons themselves? Contrary sets in particular are pretty cut+paste with maybe a few users rising above the rest, such as Lati@s, Reshiram and Dialga.


Here's my Latias again, redone with more experience in the tier:


@Soul Dew
Trait: Contrary
Impish/Careful (+Def/SDef, -SAtk)
- V-create
- Draco Meteor / Psycho Boost / Leaf Storm
- Substitute
- Milk Drink / Softboiled / Recover / Slack Off / Heal Order

Lead with either V or sub, depending on how worried you are about status. Then proceed to blast away with your SAtk upper of choice (listed there in rough order of usefulnes: Dragon hits everything nicely, Psychic does the next best average damage but gets a lot of resists, Grass hits Kyogre and Groudon lol. Don't use Overheat ever)

Healing move of choice depends largely on whim or how scared you are of Imprison! (fwiw, I only ever see people running Heal Order for recovery. List is in incredibly unscientific order of how unlikely you are to see them). If you're running a Drought team, Synthesis et al could be considered.

Latias is incredibly bulky. An Unaware phazer is probably the only sure way to get rid of her for a while. Imposter Blissey could work but struggles if you have a Sub up.


EDIT: I've been flirting with No Guard, too, but I never thought of Thundurus. Mostly just Scarf Kyogre/Mewtwo with Hydropump/Psystrike + Focus Blast + Zap Cannon + Blizzard/Hurricane. Have to admit I'd dismissed Inferno as entirely worthless, but now that you've mentioned it you can never have too many Sheddy counters!

[tehy]

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

Hey guys, try to add more substance to your posts. This thread has been really lacking in that. I'm sure you have much more to say than just one line.

I've tried many different Guts Slaking sets... here is the one I had the most success with.


Slaking
Trait: Guts
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- ExtremeSpeed
- Facade
- Hi Jump Kick

Fake Out gives Slaking a free turn to activate Toxic Orb and can also be very useful when revenging set-up sweepers. ExtremeSpeed is even stronger priority and is a big reason in why you're using Slaking in the first place. Facade is amazing and you really shouldn't be using Guts Slaking without it. There is no reason to replace it for coverage moves such as Crunch for Giratina when it hits most other Pokemon a ton harder. Slack Off is also pointless on a Pokemon that loses a lot of health each turn that needs all of the moveslots it can get. Guts Facade actually hits harder than Pure Power ExtremeSpeed. Hi Jump Kick hits Rock/Steel-types who resist Normal.

This Slaking dies pretty quickly and will be switching out a lot, which is why Toxic Orb is best on Slaking. It gets walled by Ghost-types but what can you do? It will be doing a ton of damage to everything that isn't a Ghost-type with Fake Out + Facade.

Shift Gear Slaking might be fun. Something like Shift Gear / Facade / Hi Jump Kick / Crunch @ Flame Orb could be very effective. Someone should try it out. Slaking / Regigigas need to see more usage. I saw a severe drop in them after Pure Power was banned but they are still useful.

The thing that interests me is one without hi jump kick, because blissey wouldn't automatically destroy it. Without the guts boost and status boost on facade, blissey would do far less damage to slaking, so he could theoretically take a hit and counter back. He'd still die in a few turns, but then you can have a cleaner or something.

[Gerard]

Originally Posted by Fat Krabmeat

I'd really love to see a write-up of some sets somewhere. Maybe sans the mons themselves? Contrary sets in particular are pretty cut+paste with maybe a few users rising above the rest, such as Lati@s, Reshiram and Dialga.


Here's my Latias again, redone with more experience in the tier:


@Soul Dew
Trait: Contrary
Impish/Careful (+Def/SDef, -SAtk)
- V-create
- Draco Meteor / Psycho Boost / Leaf Storm
- Substitute
- Milk Drink / Softboiled / Recover / Slack Off / Heal Order

Lead with either V or sub, depending on how worried you are about status. Then proceed to blast away with your SAtk upper of choice (listed there in rough order of usefulnes: Dragon hits everything nicely, Psychic does the next best average damage but gets a lot of resists, Grass hits Kyogre and Groudon lol. Don't use Overheat ever)

Healing move of choice depends largely on whim or how scared you are of Imprison! (fwiw, I only ever see people running Heal Order for recovery. List is in incredibly unscientific order of how unlikely you are to see them). If you're running a Drought team, Synthesis et al could be considered.

Latias is incredibly bulky. An Unaware phazer is probably the only sure way to get rid of her for a while. Imposter Blissey could work but struggles if you have a Sub up.

Chansey (with Unaware) walls you from here to eternity (and will actually gain some pretty nice boosts from V-create if she has hearth swap or just sets up herself

PS: to above, use Earthquake if you're afraid of Blissey, it hits SE to the most common steels and rock types

[verbatim]

Everything has a counter, and Unaware Blissey is a very rare set that can easily be handled by switching on the Heart Swap.

Also Krabmeat, why are you using Latias over Latios. Both will have considerable bulk after one V-Create anyways (especially factoring in Soul Dew). I'd argue that without specific calcs showing Latias surviving common hits that Latios doesn't, that Latios is a superior choice.