Balanced Hackmons

[Michael1991]

Hey; I have a quick question. Is shedinja with wonder guard banned in balanced hackmons, or is it just all other pokemon with wonder guard. I've seen different answers in different places, so I'm hoping I can get a definite answer here. Thanks.

[akela]

Originally Posted by Fat Michael1991

Hey; I have a quick question. Is shedinja with wonder guard banned in balanced hackmons, or is it just all other pokemon with wonder guard. I've seen different answers in different places, so I'm hoping I can get a definite answer here. Thanks.

All other pokemon with Wonder Guard are banned. Likewise, Meditite, Medicham, Maril, Azumaril, and Azuril can have Huge/Pure Power, but all other pokemon cannot.

EDIT: It would appear that I was wrong about Meditite, Medicham, Marill, Azumarill, and Azurill. I have alerted the developers to this issue. However, Shedinja can have Wonder Guard in all Tiers where Shedinja can be used.

[Heroes and Cons]

Thought I'd post an extremely trollish set with Lugia which I have been having tremendous success with in BH so far:

Lugia



Ability: Magic Bounce
Nature: Bold
Item: Leftovers
Moveset:
- Whirlwind / Dragon Tail
- Cosmic Power
- Stealth Rock / Stored Power
- Roost / Rest

Say hello to my premier staller / wall in BH; this Lugia has caused several rage-quits and destroyed a few SR-weak pokemon in the last couple of days. Between its flying-type and Magic Bounce, it is immune to all forms of Toxic, cannot be paralysed (except by Thunder or Zap Cannon), cannot be phazed (except by Dragon Tail) and - most importantly - cannot be Taunted. Bold is the nature chosen to boost its physical defense to a similar level as its special defense; Speed Tying is not necessary since the most Imposter Blissey can do is Cosmic Power (which I will laugh at if she is scarfed - which she practically ALWAYS is), or unexpectedly Whirlwind herself right back out as she desperately tries to remove my defense boosts.
For the first move, it is a choice between Whirlwind and Dragon-Tail. Whirlwind has 100% accuracy and twice the PP, but Dragon Tail allows Lugia to remove other, problematic Magic Bouncers who would stop it cold (assuming it is carrying SR). If you pack Stored Power, always pick Whirlwind.
Cosmic Power boosts its massive defenses to astronomical levels, to the extent that after two uses, only Choice Band Zekrom using Bolt Strike has a chance to 2HKO it outside of boosted hits or critical hits, with a Slaking's Guts-boosts Facade doing less than 30% at the same level. After 6 uses - which is surprisingly easy if the opponent lacks Zekrom / Arceus Electric or another Magic Bouncer - Lugia becomes unbreakable, able to laugh at everything thrown its way while it racks up SR damage or breaks opponents with Stored Power.
Stealth Rock is chosen as my team lacks a SR user and I don;t like relying on opponent using SR on the turn Lugia is switched it. However, if you so choose it, STAB Stored Power becomes pretty darn powerful after a few Cosmic Powers, even with no special Attack boosts. Lugia's immunity to Whirlwind and Roar means that only Dark Types (who are promptly phased away), opposing Lugia, and Pokemon with Dragon Tail can really stop this thing's defensive "onslaught".
Finally, Leftovers and Roost prolong its already considerable bulk and lasting power.

If somebody has already posted a similar set, I apologise. I have not read all 25 previous pages of this thread - just the first few.

[BigZac]

Just starting to get into this tier on Showdown..and was wondering, would it be possible to get a list of common sets added to the OP?

[Heroes and Cons]

Originally Posted by Fat BigZac

Just starting to get into this tier on Showdown..and was wondering, would it be possible to get a list of common sets added to the OP?

Probably not. Prankster Groudon with Spore and Nature Power is THE most common thing in BH though.

[verbatim]

Originally Posted by Fat Heroes and Cons

Probably not. Prankster Groudon with Spore and Nature Power is THE most common thing in BH though.

This is not true, Deoxys-S and Imposter Blissey (also various forms of Giratina) are significantly more used than any Groudon set.

Originally Posted by Fat Michael1991

Hey; I have a quick question. Is shedinja with wonder guard banned in balanced hackmons, or is it just all other pokemon with wonder guard. I've seen different answers in different places, so I'm hoping I can get a definite answer here. Thanks.

If an ability/move is banned in BH, it is banned on everything. Shedinja cannot use Wonder Guard, Medicham cannot use Pure Power, Kyogre cannot use Sheer Cold, etc.

[kiace22]

These sets have proven to be very useful in countering common meta game choices, but I would like an opinion on them as their sets are a little odd.

Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Cosmic Power
- Dragon Tail
- Clear Smog

This set is designed for trapping and killing stat raisers, walls and at the same time boosting up Giratina to be able to take any attack while healing quickly and constanly phazing or draining. But on the other hand if it gets hit by toxic it can't really do what it was meant to, and obviously has problems trapping dragons like contrary Latios.

Metagross @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Nature Power
- Heart Swap
- Recover

This is the other part of the anti-meta combo, Metagross was chosen as he can take the attacks Giratina is weak to. Pretty much either switch it in on something already boosted when you have a free switch in or on a Dragon or Psychic move and go for either spore to heart swap, or just heart swap. Can take a unboosted draco meteor without a problem, as long as you can spore them next turn to heal. Nature power is used as levitate and flying types are very rare. Recover is used to make sure it can heal up while the enemy is spored. Has problems with faster pranksters though.

Example- Latios switches in on a slow dragon(Giratina)-> Metagross switches in and takes the hit above 50% Latios gets Contrary boost-> Unexpected Spore-> Unexpected heart swap.

[Zowayix]

Originally Posted by Fat verbatim

If an ability/move is banned in BH, it is banned on everything. Shedinja cannot use Wonder Guard, Medicham cannot use Pure Power, Kyogre cannot use Sheer Cold, etc.

May I ask why? This seems a little odd to me.

[DTC]

Originally Posted by Fat Zowayix

May I ask why? This seems a little odd to me.

Zarel didn't want the bans to be more complex than they already are. It's not as if Wonder Guard Shedinja and Pure Power Medicham would see much use at all anyways.

[R7Rules]

I've used these on a rain SmashPass team with success:

Deoxys-A @ Lum Berry
Ability: Skill Link
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 in all stats
Moves:
-Icicle Spear
-Rock Blast
-Bone Rush
-ExtremeSpeed

This set works for destroying Substitutes, Imposter Blissey and Heart Swap Groudon. The reason something as Deoxys-A isn't holding a Focus Sash is because status destroys it and No Guard Pokémon (rare as they might be) and Spore users will happily exploit that. The way it destroys Groudon is simple. Groudon would happily Heart Swap away the Shell Smash boost that Deoxys-A has been given but courtesy of Deoxys-A's monstrous 504 Attack without boosting (due to the EV spread and nature) and the dropped defences Groudon Heart Swapped, Deoxys-A, hiding behind a Baton Passed Substitute, can pound away at Groudon using Icicle Spear, which grants at least a 2HKO.

Moving on to how this set destroys Imposter Blissey, it can acheive a speed tie if Blissey isn't holding a Choice Scarf and hit the Imposter on its inherited -1 defences, which does huge damage to it. The opponent may choose to use ExtremeSpeed on Deoxys-A, but if does when hiding behind a Substitute, it can obilterate the opponent with a Skill-Linked move. I can then use the transformation to my advantage, as a priority move from say, my Regigigas will KO it thanks to its fraility. Lastly, it serves as a threatening sweeper with the coverage it is granted, and also thanks to ExtremeSpeed with picks of weakened opponents.

Kyogre @Lum Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
Max EVs in every Stat
Modest Nature
Moves:
-Tail Glow
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Thunder

Since weather isn't used much in BH, this set takes advantage of the lack of Weather Wars. First Drizzle Palkia can set up the rain use its STAB coverage, Heart Swap a boost to itself and Baton Pass it to Kyogre, or alternately the SmashPasser on my team could Baton Pass a Substitute to Kyogre so to prevent Imposter Blissey coming in and ruining its day. With a Tail Glow and 2 Speed Boosts under its belt, this thing has a whopping 1095 Special Attack and a 558 Speed to top it off. Combine this with the perfect coverage this thing has (unless you're using Lanturn) and you have one hell of a sweeper on your hands, and with Speed Boost, it gets better every turn. You can't even Spore this thing thanks to its Lum Berry.

Example SmashPasser:
Giratina @ Lum Berry
Ability: Normalize
Bold Nature
Moves:
-Skill Swap
-Substitute
-Shell Smash
-Baton Pass

This thing is a brilliant and underrated SmashPasser. Thanks to its brilliant defences, it will almost always get a Skill Swap in, and once it does it renders a Pokémon absolutely useless until it switches out. Because of this it will almost always get to pass to a Substitute and a Shell Smash to a Pokémon on my team, putting the player against boosted threats on my team, namely Contrary Latios, Speed Boost Kyogre, Skill Link Deoxys-A and Scrappy Slaking.

[verbatim]

Originally Posted by Fat Zowayix

May I ask why? This seems a little odd to me.

Apart from hatred of complex bans (the real reason) letting Pokemon use moves they already know would open up the floor to all kinds of things that the bans were put in place to stop, the best example being Choice Scarf No Guard Sheer Cold Kyogre.

[Elveman]

Chansey@eviolite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Nature: Relaxed
IVs/EVs: 0/0 Spe
Moves:
1. Encore
2. Guard Split/Power Split
3. Roost (Morning Sun in Sunny team)
4. Metal burst

Main idea:
What if Chansey and Blissey can be as modified Wobbuffets? They have more HP than this punching bag and can be annoying too. the main issue is that Chansey has only 5 in Defense but that can be fixed with Guard Split or with crippling foe's Attack and SpA with Power Split.
Encore is necessary move for Chanbuffet, that's obvious.
Why Roost? Because Softboiled is too banally.
Metal burst is the main countering move of Chanbuffet that can replace CounterCoat combo because of lack of moveslots.

[TheStarRapper]

Originally Posted by Fat kiace22

These sets have proven to be very useful in countering common meta game choices, but I would like an opinion on them as their sets are a little odd.

Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Cosmic Power
- Dragon Tail
- Clear Smog



Metagross @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Nature Power
- Heart Swap
- Recover

For Giratina, leech seed and phazing are counterintuitive. Something like aqua ring might suit you better. Also, his weaknesses are ghost dark ice and dragon, two of which Metagross is neutral to. I'm not sure about how common the types of moves are in this meta, but a pure steel type like Registeel has better defensive synergy as well as higher stats than Meta (especially on special side).

[Heroes and Cons]

Okay, I seriously think that Imposter Blissey needs to be looked into, it;s broken IMO, it copies ability, stats AND boosts while keeping its enormous HP, and now that Pure / Huge Power is banned there is ZERO need to use it to stop powerful sweepers - I myself have NEVER used Imposter Blissey and have zero trouble with setup sweepers. The fact is, Imposter is already an incredibly powerful ability, but to have it on somethign with that much HP, it is becoming as centralising as - if not more than - Garchomp was in DPPt OU. It is pretty much guaranteed 100% to survive any attack, while simultaneously using your boosts to sweep, or defensive abilties completely unhindered as it brushes off even the strongest attacks in the game. This is made even worse by the fact is may copy your own Prankster sporer, where it will then simply spore your sleep-inducer itself, then do whatever it damn well wants too for the rest of the match.

No, it;s not uncounterable - but my argument is simply the fact that is is completely overcentralising and requires far too mcuh dedication to fully counter. I am desparate to see this thign banned to the unrestricted Hackmons tier.

[Varfor]

Originally Posted by Fat Heroes and Cons

my argument is simply the fact that is is completely overcentralising and requires far too mcuh dedication to fully counter. I am desparate to see this thign banned to the unrestricted Hackmons tier.

Imposter Blissey is a counter to setup sweepers, it is not a sweeper itself. Considering Imposter Blissey only gets 5 PP for each move, and only 5 PP total if it holds a choice scarf, it is far from broken, and rarely is able to pull off a sweep. Also, as copies your Pokemon, you should be able to prepare for it as you know its entire moveset and can plan your team accordingly.
Imposter Blissey does not require much dedication to counter especially considering that if you stay away from boosting sweepers, it is hardly even a threat. It also can be revenge killed by prankster spore users, which would be common even without Imposter Blissey and are therefore not exactly dedicated counters.

Originally Posted by Fat Heroes and Cons

I myself have NEVER used Imposter Blissey and have zero trouble with setup sweepers.

If you have no trouble with setup sweepers, then why do you have trouble with Imposter Blissey copying your setup sweepers?

If we ban Imposter, boosting sweepers will become very powerful and we might also have to ban abilities like Contrary and Simple. The point of Balanced Hackmons was to get rid of pokemon such as wondertomb and Pure Power Slaking, the former being almost impossible to damage and the latter being able to sweep through almost anything, Imposter Blissey is only as powerful as what it copies (though it is bulkier) and is thus a completely different type of threat. If we ban too many abilities, Balanced hackmons will become almost the same as glitchmons.

[Arkeis]

If you rely on setup sweepers, you should be more worried about Heart Swappers than Imposter Blissey. Blissey can only copy your boosts, but Heart Swap STEALS your boosts and leaves you with none. Plus it can't be blocked by Substitute and Illusion like Imposter can.

[akela]

Originally Posted by Fat aragornbird

If you rely on setup sweepers, you should be more worried about Heart Swappers than Imposter Blissey. Blissey can only copy your boosts, but Heart Swap STEALS your boosts and leaves you with none. Plus it can't be blocked by Substitute and Illusion like Imposter can.

This here, is a person who understands the real threat to setup sweepers.

aragornbird also understand that banning Imposter Blissey will just lead to another "centralizing threat" in balanced hackmons, which then will need to be banned, leading to another...

Bans in BH only occur because unless you have that pokemon on your team, you are losing. If it is so centralizing that you cannot win without a huge amount of luck without it on your team, then it needs to be banned. And it is easy to beat imposter blissey. You don't need to dedicate more than 1/2 of a pokemon towards dealing with it. No need to ban it.

[Varfor]

Originally Posted by Fat aragornbird

If you rely on setup sweepers, you should be more worried about Heart Swappers than Imposter Blissey. Blissey can only copy your boosts, but Heart Swap STEALS your boosts and leaves you with none. Plus it can't be blocked by Substitute and Illusion like Imposter can.

If your setup sweeper does not have substitute, Imposter Blissey does effectively the same thing as a Heart Swap pokemon would. If it holds Choice Scarf it will always outspeed the pokemon it switches in on and, assuming it copies a decent amount of offensive boosts, will be able to easily OHKO the opponent. This still leaves you with the boosts, with your opponent having none. If Blissey does not carry a choice scarf, you will still have a 50% chance of outspeeding it and, failing that, Blissey has a much better chance of surviving an attack than its opponent has (Which still leaves you with the boosts and your opponent with none).

[R7Rules]

Originally Posted by Fat Elveman

Chansey@eviolite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Nature: Relaxed
IVs/EVs: 0/0 Spe
Moves:
1. Encore
2. Guard Split/Power Split
3. Roost (Morning Sun in Sunny team)
4. Metal burst

Main idea:
What if Chansey and Blissey can be as modified Wobbuffets? They have more HP than this punching bag and can be annoying too. the main issue is that Chansey has only 5 in Defense but that can be fixed with Guard Split or with crippling foe's Attack and SpA with Power Split.

Chansey's physical defence is still pretty horrible after Guard Split, as on for example Slaking you're looking at around 55 Defence and a Power Split on something like Slaking wouldn't come at the right time thanks to Slaking's monstrous 160 Attack. It simply can't stand to the powerful physical attacks in BH, with things like Slaking, Regigigas and Groudon. It could work, and you made that set well, but Metal Burst won't do anything to Special Attackers thanks to the natural special bulk of Chansey, Physical Attackers will prey on this thing thanks to its rock-bottom defence stat, and it is complete Taunt bait. I would personally use something like Slaking for this set, as it has a great 150 HP stat, it doesn't need to use Guard/Power Split so it can use an attack, and it has just about the right defences for this role.

[R7Rules]

The best way to use setup sweepers is to Baton Pass a Substitute on to them; that way, Imposter Blissey won't be doing anything to them. At the end of the day, Set-up sweepers should be more worried about Heart-Swappers and Unaware than a Pokémon that actually keeps the metagame balanced (It counters Contrary users) and is used to give the opponents team a chance against things like SmashPass teams. Anyway I use SmashPass teams that deal with Blissey with no problem, yet I actually use Shadow Tag Shaymin-S to deal with Heart Swap Groudon

[Cobraroll]

New idea, if rather gimmicky:

Zekrom @ Expert Belt/Muscle Band/Lum Berry
Adamant/Jolly
Ability: Prankster
- Soak
- Fusion Bolt/Volt Tackle
- Pursuit
- Aqua Tail/other useful move

The idea is simple: Prankster Soak. Basically, it gives you 100% coverage with just one move (your STAB Electric physical move of choice. Volt Tackle has more PP, but also recoil). It also messes up any STAB of the opponent.
Should your unfortunate opponent decide to switch out after having his type decimated (you'd be crazy to stay in against Zekrom with a water type), feel free to Pursuit. With base 150 Attack, you leave a rather large dent in whatever switches out.

The last move is there for Magic Bouncers. I suggest Aqua Tail, so you can abuse your newly acquired STAB in the event that Soak gets turned against you. Other moves to bypass Sturdy Shedinja could also be used.

Imposter Blissey shouldn't be a problem. You can turn her Water, and hit HARD with your Electric move. Her only defence would be to turn Soak against you and do the same, seeing as Aqua Tail and VT/FB are both NVE against Zekrom (so no Choice Scarves messing up the speed tie). If she somehow got a free switch-in, you'd always manage to Soak her first due to Prankster. Then it would be down to speed tie who kills who the following turn. Your item of choice should give you the hardest hit.

And yes, status screws you up rather badly. Lum Berry could be used to mitigate this.

[Groudon ex]

Originally Posted by Fat aragornbird

If you rely on setup sweepers, you should be more worried about Heart Swappers than Imposter Blissey. Blissey can only copy your boosts, but Heart Swap STEALS your boosts and leaves you with none. Plus it can't be blocked by Substitute and Illusion like Imposter can.

I've been running Prankster Taunt on setup sweepers/receivers for this very reason - works wonders.

[czechm8]

I've been using Unaware Registeel for a while now and it is so so sexy. Laugh to yourself as you're opponents Mewtwo Quiver Dances to +6 while you set up hazards. When you're both finished they, secure in their thoughts of victory will let loose with a mighty aura sphere. Then rage when it does about 40% and you roar them out.

Registeel @ careful leftovers
252 Everything Unaware
Stealth Rock/spikes
Roar
Toxic/rapid spin
Recover

This works for basically all setup sweepers without really strong fire attacks.

[ForeverPerfectXI]

Imposter Blissey is very good, but it isn't so great that I think it should be banned. And imposter can even be used against it if you play right.

[DTC]

Here's this one set I used a while ago for a little bit:


Rhydon
Trait: Sap Sipper
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Shift Gear
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Rhydon has the most physical bulk out of every Pokemon in the game with Eviolite. It's so high that Rhydon can even tank most Hi Jump Kick's. Sap Sipper is a very useful ability as it makes Rhydon immune to Spore and the rare Grass-type moves that it's 4x weak to. After a Shift Gear, Rhydon outspeeds even +Speed base 110's and can hit them hard with one of its powerful attacks. What's also cool about Rhydon is that Blissey doesn't copy the Eviolite boost, which allows Rhydon to have somewhat of a chance against it. I used this Rhydon on a sand team to patch up its low Special Defense. It's also one of the only good Rock-types in Balanced Hackmons.

Also, there are now stats for Balanced Hackmons. Check them out