Balanced Hackmons

[Gerard]

Oh, Escavalier...


Escavalier (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 0 Spd
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- V-Create
- Gyro Ball
- Trick Room
- Megahorn/Earthquake

I've been using Escavalier to counter a lot of the dragons running in the tier, since unless they're running Mold Breaker Esca is incredibly hard to OHKO (and since most people uses V-Create/Overheat/Flare Blitz first most likely they'll let you set TR and get one attack before they can even do anything). Which at the very least lets you get a slower mon that can revenge. V-create lets you abuse the Flash Fire boost, and your bulk lets you take a hit even at -1, along with any priority other than Prankster Groundon's, The biggest choice there is something for Reshiran vs Latios, Megahorn OHKOes the former while Earthquake does the first as long as it hasn't acquired any defense boost (which it shouldn't have considering switching in V-create negates the contrarian boost), and neither can really hurt you that much back. Great TR supporter and sweeper, it's also fun so when Blissey thinks her scarf it's a good accesory just to be smashed before she can even move

Also, I had an idea about a Regenerator team (or at least a solid core), any thoughts? (I'm thinking Giratina/Lugia/Chansey/(something to take on dark mons) could work)

[VaporeonIce]

Uhh verbatim, why does your Latios run 0 Speed EVs and your Escavalier run 252 Speed EVs?

[verbatim]

Misstype, corrected

[nyph]

Interesting team I made today:

Lugia @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Stealth Rock
- Worry Seed
- Baton Pass

Giratina @ Leppa Berry
Trait: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fling
- Skill Swap
- Wrap
- Baton Pass

Giratina @ Lum Berry
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Acupressure
- Recover
- Baton Pass

Angel of Death (Jirachi) @ Mind Plate
Trait: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Stored Power
- Copycat
- Taunt
- Focus Blast

Lugia @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Spikes
- Worry Seed
- Baton Pass

Registeel @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Acupressure
- Recover
- Baton Pass




The idea is to trap the opponents lead and set up jirachi. This type of team is by no means new, what is new afaik is my rachi set.

Ideally you want spikes+sr to be up as well as somewhere near max stats before your opponents lead goes down. Then you sweep with prankster copycat stored power.
When finally set up this beats:
Blissey(sub)
Unaware(stored power has ridiculous power)
Prankster Heart swap(copycat prankster stored power)
Sturdy(hazards)
Anything else, barring spiritomb/sableye.


Current potential counters:
Avoiding the trap
Magic bounce lead + sturdy mon
Unaware dark types.(taunt might beat these)
Extremespeed user + prankster user sent in next to break copycat(taunt potentially beats this counter).
Sableye/spiritomb.
Afaik anything else gets stomped.

So if you get the opponent trapped and choice locked, the game is pretty much over.

Potential additions:
Recycle leppa for more set up time.

Also an explanation for the first Gira set: firstly, leppa+fling to get an extra 10 turns of set up before the enemy struggles to death. Secondly wrap+skill swap allows me to change the enemies ability to arena trap while still keeping them trapped so I can set up hazards vs magic bounce leads.

Edit: This team is absolutely destroying at the moment. So far nothing has stopped one of my fully set up rachi sweeps.

[jagged_angel]

This looks like it would be fun to try :) Wouldn't Ingrain be better though? I have seen un-Tauntable Magic Bounce users with Whirlwind flitting about before.

[nyph]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

This looks like it would be fun to try :) Wouldn't Ingrain be better though? I have seen un-Tauntable Magic Bounce users with Whirlwind flitting about before.

Ingrain is effectively useless as the main counter to boosting sweepers is heart swap not phazing. Magic bounce means you dont get the priority and so expose yourself to the ever common prankster heart swap.

My jirachi set when fully set up beats:
-Unaware
-Imposter
-Prankster

Phazers get ohkoed along with pretty much anything else.

Also ingrain should never be used in BH, not only is it useless, but you are forced to stay in against heart swappers and enemies that are setting up.

Also, revised my team in my last post to my current version.

Edit: This team is probably my best ever BH team. I have only lost 1 out of the last 40+ games I have played.

[Wobble]

There's nothing that can outspeed Jirachi at +6 so breaking Copycat with Prankster seems to be impossible.

Only Fake Out or Extreemspeed can do that.

[verbatim]

Originally Posted by Fat Nyph

Angel of Death (Jirachi) @ Mind Plate
Trait: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Stored Power
- Copycat
- Taunt
- Focus Blast

You might want to reevaluate your moveset, because currently Arena Trap Spiratomb re-traps you and puts you in a situation very similar to the one your team is designed around (if Arena Trap meets Shadow Tag, neither member can switch). Also, what benchmark does Mind Plate allow you to hit? It seems like Lum Berry/Leftovers would be useful in the long run.

[nyph]

Originally Posted by Fat verbatim

You might want to reevaluate your moveset, because currently Arena Trap Spiratomb re-traps you and puts you in a situation very similar to the one your team is designed around (if Arena Trap meets Shadow Tag, neither member can switch). Also, what benchmark does Mind Plate allow you to hit? It seems like Lum Berry/Leftovers would be useful in the long run.

I have never seen a shadow tag or arena trap spiritomb ever in BH. I have seen very few spiritombs anyway and they all ran prankster and magic bounce. Non-trapping spiritomb get choice locked and die to struggle. Prankster taunt screws this team harder than spiritomb anyway, though strangely enough I never came across it while using this team.

Mind plate has been useful a couple times, when I did not get a full set up. I remember at least one instance where stored power has done ~45% to something like lugia, which means mind plate made it a 2hko with SR. Theres probably also been many times that a 2hko has turned into a ohko but of course that isn't really noticeable unless you calc stuff, which I usually don't.
Lum Berry is near useless as jirachi would nearly always come out set up and behind a sub. Same deal with leftovers. Life orb has too much of a drawback to be worth the extra 10% damage boost over mind plate. That leaves not too many options, and when making the set I just settled for mind plate. No better alternative has shown up.




Shadow tag is far too good for balanced hackmons imo, it gives you too much leverage over the opponent and is very difficult to counter. It can either remove specific pokemon from the enemy team(via perish song or other means), or it can be used to set up a checkmate situation where the opponent cannot do anything and is near guarranteed to lose.

What this ONE team does(let alone variants):
This team means you HAVE to have prankster, shadow tag, imposter or u-turn/volt-switch/baton pass on your lead. If you do not have one of those, it is game over right from the beginning; you are screwed no matter what move you pick. It pretty much kills a lot of lead diversity. Thinking about running imposter + bellydrum/sub/es/crunch slaking lead or something? Nope, sorry that is not viable as you will lose. What about mold breaker + spore/spikes/sr/magic coat deoxys-s? Nope, thats another loss. How about getting right in there with contrary draco/v-create/psycho/sub latios? Nope, sorry can't run that either. How about magic bounce + sub/quiver/dragonpulse/recover dialga? Negative.
Also, one of these pokemon don't even have to lead, they just have to come out early in the match versus a trickscarfer and its game over, there are countless sets that get munched by it, I would guess an upwards of 70% of ALL sets that are run currently face this situation.

My three losses from using the team(70+wins):
-Klutz dialga(that set would not have beaten me if I had worry seeded him)
-Prankster groudon(spore+bellydrum+pass)
-Struggle crit breaking jirachi sub(and then imposter coming in)

I would say shadow tag is much more powerful than pure power ever was.

[Arcticblast]

I see one absolutely glaring problem with your team outside of Prankster Groudon - It's absolutely ruined by Taunt. Jirachi doesn't pack quite enough punch without the boosts, and TrickScarfing the Taunter doesn't help, since you're still Taunted. Literally only Giratina can function against a Taunter. I guess Jirachi could Copycat Taunt, but if the Taunter has Prankster or Magic Bounce, you still lose in the end. You don't have a single Bouncer of your own and you don't have Magic Coat.

Also, U-Turn + weather + Speed-boosting abilities can nip the chain in the bud. I, for example, run U-Turn on a Sand Stream Regirock for the sole purpose of avoiding Shadow Tag and losing a solid wall and my weather setter.

And like Verb said, Arena Trap Spiritomb pretty much hard counters your team once you've set up. It would have to have both Magic Coat and Heart Swap to do so though (and possibly Substitute as well...).

[verbatim]

Originally Posted by Fat nyph

Shadow tag is far too good for balanced hackmons imo, it gives you too much leverage over the opponent and is very difficult to counter. It can either remove specific pokemon from the enemy team(via perish song or other means), or it can be used to set up a checkmate situation where the opponent cannot do anything and is near guarranteed to lose.

I'm still thinking about it, but I do see where you're coming from, however, that being said, I do take issue with,

Originally Posted by Fat nyph

I would say shadow tag is much more powerful than pure power ever was.

You can't just slap Shadow Tag on a team and start winning, you also need to have some degree of skill/finesse in team organization to take full advantage of Shadow Tag while also mitigating would be counters(in this case, your double Lugia's which accounted for my U-Turn Deoxys-S and Copycat Jirachi for getting around Prankster pokemon).

[nyph]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

I see one absolutely glaring problem with your team outside of Prankster Groudon - It's absolutely ruined by Taunt. Jirachi doesn't pack quite enough punch without the boosts, and TrickScarfing the Taunter doesn't help, since you're still Taunted. Literally only Giratina can function against a Taunter. I guess Jirachi could Copycat Taunt, but if the Taunter has Prankster or Magic Bounce, you still lose in the end. You don't have a single Bouncer of your own and you don't have Magic Coat.

Also, U-Turn + weather + Speed-boosting abilities can nip the chain in the bud. I, for example, run U-Turn on a Sand Stream Regirock for the sole purpose of avoiding Shadow Tag and losing a solid wall and my weather setter.

And like Verb said, Arena Trap Spiritomb pretty much hard counters your team once you've set up. It would have to have both Magic Coat and Heart Swap to do so though (and possibly Substitute as well...).

Taunt gets pp stalled by switches, I trick the scarf back, and then lock them into a different move. Non-prankster taunt never was a problem.
U-turn works, but the thing is that you need to run it on each pokemon that runs an exploitable set. Which is 70%+ of the current sets. This team handles more diverse stuff than you would think, there is pretty much no way of stopping it other than the counters I have mentioned in the previous posts.

Arena trap spiritomb can be countered by changing focus blast to spacial rend or something(maybe could even run latios over jirachi, whats the counter then?). Plus arena trap spiritomb is a set designed solely to counter one set, and is far inferior to Giratina in normal play.
Edit: u-turn lead + prankster taunt user could be a good counter the team and still be viable in normal play. I could still run magic coat on something though, and have time to trickscarf before the taunt ends.

Originally Posted by Fat verbatim

You can't just slap Shadow Tag on a team and start winning, you also need to have some degree of skill/finesse in team organization to take full advantage of Shadow Tag while also mitigating would be counters(in this case, your double Lugia's which accounted for my U-Turn Deoxys-S and Copycat Jirachi for getting around Prankster pokemon).

Yes, that is true. Pure power could be slapped on anything and go wild, but there was still counters to that. Cotton guard existed, ghost types with encore existed, prankster existed. Although it was powerful, pure power also had its checks. I think shadow tag is too good because you cannot really account for it on a standard team without being significantly weakened versus other standard teams without the checks. If, say you ran spiritomb instead of giratina, then you would get screwed by all those things that giratina usually stops with its 150/120/120 defenses.(not to mention spiritomb is easily beatable by having a different move over focus blast). If you run u-turn on everything then you only can run effectively 3 move sets.
Plus it is way faster to lose to pure power than to shadow tag. It is pretty painful to watch a 20-30 turn careful set up and then get swept when you can do nothing(well, you can forfeit). Perish song is also really annoying.
Edit: It would not take too much skill for someone to copy this team and then proceed to wipe out 90%+ of current teams, without requiring too much skill. (95%+ with skill).

[Arcticblast]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that's a bad team at all - my post came off a bit angry, sorry :\ it's an excellent team, it just has some common counters.

Heck, I switched out my Arceus-Grass for a Shadow Tag Giratina of my own because I'm terrified of having to face that team...

[The_Eevee_General]

Nyph, I feel like Unaware Lugia would hold up to your Jirachi all day long. One with Super Fang or Night Shade (for subs) would break it down. It would just have to watch out for Trick+Choice Scarf and Worry Seed.

Why do you run Worry Seed over Gastro Acid?

[nyph]

Originally Posted by Fat The_Eevee_General

Nyph, I feel like Unaware Lugia would hold up to your Jirachi all day long. One with Super Fang or Night Shade (for subs) would break it down. It would just have to watch out for Trick+Choice Scarf and Worry Seed.

Why do you run Worry Seed over Gastro Acid?

Jirachi when set up does 97.6% - 114.9%(ohko with sr) to unaware lugia with stored power. Don't forget its 860 BP.

I dunno why worry seed, I think I remember something somewhere saying it is better somehow, but I could be wrong.

[akela]

Originally Posted by Fat nyph

Jirachi when set up does 97.6% - 114.9%(ohko with sr) to unaware lugia with stored power. Don't forget its 860 BP.

I dunno why worry seed, I think I remember something somewhere saying it is better somehow, but I could be wrong.

Worry Seed is more disruptive than Gastro. While not common, some pokemon do like sleep in BH...

[T3h_Glurak]

Haven´t post for ages, let´s change it!

Well, I just want to know what item I should use on Imposter Blissey? Blissey, because Imposter copies all stat but HP and since Blissey has the highest one, yeah :>

@ ?
EV´s: 255 HP, everything else is unimportant
DV´s 31 HP, everything else is unimportant
Nature: Hardy
Moves:
- Splash
- Tackle
- Growl
- Tail Whip

(I think the moves are not important, since Blissey will use the opponent one´s)

If nature oder moves are important I will change, but I don´t think so.

Should I use Choice Scarf to revenge stuff like Contrary Reshiram? With other Items there is a 50:50 Chance to get outspeeded and OHKO by a Draco ...

Sorry, if my english is bad, but I think you will understand me!

I also tried some Hackmon in Battle Subway and things like Huge Power Slaking and Belly Drum Wondertomb absolutely destroyed them lol.

[verbatim]

Imposter Blissey usually uses one of Leftovers, Lum Berry, or Choice Scarf, depending on how you want her to play (Choice Scarf makes a great revenge killer, while the other two are better for sweeping). It is worth noting that if you switch into someting else that has already transformed, then you will not transform, meaning that moves and nature are important every now and then. I personally use an Impish nature in combination with Wish, Rapid Spin, U-Turn, and Heal Bell. This set has a surprising amount of utility. Blissey can use slow U-Turn's to guarantee another Pokemon gets a free Wish, while Heal Bell enables me to wake up sleeping team members. Rapid Spin is mainly there to insure I win stall wars if Blissey is my last Pokemon (it has 64 PP).

[T3h_Glurak]

Thanks, I think I will try the Scarfed one with Rapid Spin, Wish, Heal Bell and U-Turn.

[verbatim]

After careful consideration, it has been decided that Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are unhealthy for the tier, and as such they have been banned.

[HAiGAizZ]

Nooooooooooo

my lead trickscarf shadow tag darkrai that baton passed QD and subsitute is no more ;(
you shall be missed
no clue why i ran darkrai over deoxys speed, i just did :/

[The_Eevee_General]

Who made the decision? How was it decided they were unhealthy for the metagame?

[verbatim]

The decision was made by knowledgeable Balanced Hackmons players who were on IRC when I brought it up for discussion. We collectively (and unanimously) agreed that Shadow Tag and Arena Trap were unhealthy for the metagame.

[Imanalt]

has anyone posted pointing out that eviolite chansey outclasses nonscarfed blissey now?

[The_Eevee_General]

Originally Posted by Fat verbatim

The decision was made by knowledgeable Balanced Hackmons players who were on IRC when I brought it up for discussion. We collectively (and unanimously) agreed that Shadow Tag and Arena Trap were unhealthy for the metagame.

I'm just curious... Was this unanimous decision made by more than one person? And if not who were these knowledgeable players?

And how was it that this conversation was held at a place and time of your choosing instead of announced or incited somewhere where we all could have participated? I'm thinking something along the lines of forum discussions similar to when something is banned from a tier.

I dunno, just adding my opinion. Not trying to step on anyone's toes...