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Mar 23rd, 2012, 11:37:22 AM
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#1 | |
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That's Dr. Antar to you
   
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,051
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Self-KO clause
I share with you a conversation I had with a friend.
Quote:
So has anyone else had a problem with self-KO clause doing this? And, more importantly, is it wrong?
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Mar 23rd, 2012, 12:41:37 PM
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#2 |
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Woof
 
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I have heard complaints about KO clause before but they are extremely rare and usually happen in events like with the user you were talking to. I am not sure about the clause but I know it doesn't disallow explosion (because I used to ladder with a CB explosion Ferrothorn to be an ass). I believe it comes down to 1-1 events were both mons are KO'd at the same time via LO, rocky helmet, aftermath, etc. This seriously should just be ruled a tie and no points are awarded to either battler but Self-KO clause is so rare an occurance I don't really know.
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Mar 23rd, 2012, 12:46:53 PM
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#3 | |
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That's Dr. Antar to you
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Quote:
Here are two (anonymized) battle logs:
LO Recoil
Iron Barbs
IMO, these both should have been declared ties. Ugh. Time to poke through PO's source code...
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Mar 23rd, 2012, 12:54:28 PM
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#4 |
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That's Dr. Antar to you
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...and here's the relevant source code:
Code:
if (recoil < 0) {
inflictDamage(source, damage, source, false);
/* Self KO Clause! */
if (koed(source)) {
/* In VGC 2011 (gen 5), the user of the recoil move wins instead of losing with the Self KO Clause */
if (gen() <= 4)
selfKoer() = source;
else
selfKoer() = target;
}
} else {
if (hasWorkingItem(source, Item::BigRoot)) /* Big root */ {
damage = damage * 13 / 10;
}
if (hasWorkingAbility(target, Ability::LiquidOoze)) {
sendMoveMessage(1,2,source,Pokemon::Poison,target);
inflictDamage(source,damage,source,false);
/* Self KO Clause! */
if (koed(source)) {
if (gen() >= 5)
selfKoer() = target;
}
} else {
if (pokeMemory(source).value("HealBlockCount").toInt() > 0) {
sendMoveMessage(60, 0, source);
} else {
healLife(source, damage);
}
}
}
}
Code:
if (c1*c2==0) {
if (c1 + c2 == 0) {
if ((clauses() & ChallengeInfo::SelfKO) && selfKoer() != -1) {
notifyClause(ChallengeInfo::SelfKO);
endBattle(Win, opponent(player(selfKoer())), player(selfKoer()));
}
endBattle(Tie, Player1, Player2);
} else if (c1 == 0) {
endBattle(Win, Player2, Player1);
} else {
endBattle(Win, Player1, Player2);
}
}
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Codes and Hacks I Use PBR FC: 4898-8739-8815 (See here) Black FC: 4040 5386 0128 / White 2 FC: 4771 3664 7215 My Narrated PBR & Gen V Battles My Trade Thread Convert any sim team to pkms Pokemetrics: A Blog |
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Mar 23rd, 2012, 4:29:33 PM
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#5 |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,086
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On a cartridge wi-fi battle, I believe it's actually impossible to tie. This is because in 5th gen, the game actually has an inherent Self-KO Clause. For these following videos, pay close attention to the ending message that says "Player defeated/lost against ____."
Life Orb user wins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESBCyHAK9yE Destiny Bond user loses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxdP0ionlFA Final Gambit user loses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HE8Mni3dxw Rocky Helmet holder wins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpeFDBpxOAU All these types of scenarios are explained here: http://www.pokemonvgc.com/static/pdf...on_2011_EN.pdf If you really wanted to emulate wi-fi battles on PO or any other simulator, you would remove Self-KO Clause from being optional, and implement it into the actual coding of all 5th gen battles. Last edited by Pidge; Mar 23rd, 2012 at 4:40:27 PM. |
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Mar 23rd, 2012, 6:07:59 PM
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#6 |
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 349
A paper bag
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In response to Pidge's post (nice finds, btw!), it seems that the rule is implemented various ways based on the mechanics of the specific method used.
Destiny Bond/Final Gambit/Explosion has the user faint as an activation cost before the effect of the move resolves. Obviously, if the user of those moves got themselves into such a situation that they need to drag the opponent down with them, they were most likely (I say "likely" instead of "certainly" because lol hax) outplayed and don't deserve the win, so this interpretation makes sense. The Rocky Helmet holder winning, however, is a bit less straightforward. In that example, note how damage from Bug Bite was applied, then Rocky Helmet's effect activated, then Scizor faints first after the effect of Rocky Helmet before Metagross bites it. Also, it's fairly common knowledge that LO recoil is applied after a KO is scored. In all of these examples, a common thread can be found: The loser was the one whose last Pokemon fainted first. (In the case of the weather double kill, for once you can be glad that your opponent outspeeds you!)
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Mar 23rd, 2012, 6:56:45 PM
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#7 |
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That's Dr. Antar to you
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,051
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So, bottom line: is PO is correctly implementing the VGC rule?
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Codes and Hacks I Use PBR FC: 4898-8739-8815 (See here) Black FC: 4040 5386 0128 / White 2 FC: 4771 3664 7215 My Narrated PBR & Gen V Battles My Trade Thread Convert any sim team to pkms Pokemetrics: A Blog |
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Mar 23rd, 2012, 9:40:36 PM
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#8 |
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b202 wifi vgc
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 933
wow, fantastic baby
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in vgc, recoil moves (double-edge, flare blitz), life orb recoil = user of move wins.
destiny bond, explosion selfdestruct = user of move loses. edit: also at the bottom of the link that pidge posted is extremely important ( # of pokemon, then average % hp remaining, then # total hp, THEN bo1 match). is any of that implemented? |
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Mar 23rd, 2012, 11:32:32 PM
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#9 | |
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That's Dr. Antar to you
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,051
DC Metro Area
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Quote:
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Codes and Hacks I Use PBR FC: 4898-8739-8815 (See here) Black FC: 4040 5386 0128 / White 2 FC: 4771 3664 7215 My Narrated PBR & Gen V Battles My Trade Thread Convert any sim team to pkms Pokemetrics: A Blog |
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Mar 30th, 2012, 6:40:43 AM
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#10 |
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,011
Maryland
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It appears that, since Pidge is correct, at least based on my past experience, the only problem with Self-KO clause is the message. Zell correctly lost points, but he shouldn't have been told that the match was a tie.
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