(OU) Doing the dance...the RAIN DANCE!!!

[minime1164]

after reading about rain dance teams, i decided to make my own. first, i started with ludicolo. then i progressed to qwilfish, and so on and so on to the rest of my team: swampert, scizor, kingdra, and jirachi. don't know if it is good or not, so plz help.
-------------------------------------
jirachi @choice scarf
ability: serene grace
modest
252 special attack, 252 speed, 4 hp
trick
thunder
rain dance
water pulse

a great lead that can fill many roles, i decided to use him to trick the other leads, as a lot of leads are slower than jirachi even with choice scarf, like forretress. plus, a lot of leads like to set up first, whether with sweeping setups(swords dance or d-dance)/ weather setting/ hazard setting. water pulse gets pseudoSTAB in the rain, thunder gets 100 percent accuracy, and both get a boost in secondary effects due to serene grace. thunder gets 60 percent chance to paralyze, and water pulse gets 40? percent chance to confuse. one threat i noticed is that any pokemon with any choice item defeats my jirachi. what can i change to fix this?

synergy:
fire--> rain dance support, kingdra, qwilfish, swampert
ground--> ludicolo
-------------------------------------
ludicolo @leftovers
ability: swift swim
modest
252 special attack, 32 hp, 224 speed
energy ball
surf
ice beam
rain dance

my favorite pokemon, and my favorite special sweeper, he's another rain dance setter so he can keep the momentum going. he is used to take out the bulky waters with energy ball. his beam takes out dragons as most of them are 4x hit by ice. surf get a huge amount of power during the rain. leftovers so he can stay alive longer. his grass and water typing leave him with weaknesses that, in my opinion, aren't used a lot, like poison and bug types.

synergy:
poison--> swampert, qwilfish, scizor, jirachi
bug--> qwilfish, scizor, swampert
flying--> jirachi
-------------------------------------
qwilfish @life orb
ability: swift swim
adamant
252 attack, 4 defence, 252 speed
swords dance
waterfall
poison jab
explosion

this little pufferfish is kabutops forgotten brother. he may not pack as much power as kabutops, but he can do things kabutops can't, namely explode and absorb toxic spikes. a plus 2 poison jab can ohko celebi, and waterfall packs a massive punch against t-tar in the rain. all in all, a great addition to the team.

synergy:
psychic--> jirachi, scizor
ground--> ludicolo
electric--> swampert
-------------------------------------
@lum berry
ability: swift swim
modest
4 hp, 252 special attack, 252 speed
dragon pulse
surf
hidden power [electric]
rain dance

another swift swimmer, this time with bulk. lum berry is so that it isn't stopped short by some sort of status. dragon pulse is to take out other dragons. surf for STAB, as every water type needs a water move. hidden power electric for those bulky waters, like vaporeon and milotic, plus to take out gyarados. rain dance to keep the momentum going.

synergy:
dragon--> jirachi, scizor
-------------------------------------
scizor @expert belt
ability: technician
adamant
248 hp, 252 attack, 8 speed
bullet punch
pursuit
superpower
u-turn

when you make a rain dance team, you almost HAVE to put him on the team. with one resistance, fire, that is doused by rain dance, plus a great threatkiller on rain dance teams, he was perfect. superpower to take out t-tar, pursuit for gengar, and bullet punch for abomasnow, he takes out three major threats. gengar especially as it can learn energy ball and thunder, taking out water types. after a superpower, you u-turn to deal with the reduced stats.

synergy:
fire--> kingdra, qwilfish, swampert, rain dance support
-------------------------------------
swampert @leftovers
ability: torrent
relaxed
248 hp, 216 s. defence, 44 speed
stealth rock
ice beam
earthquake
surf

basically, i needed a stealth rocker with decent defences and good synergy with the team. different suggestions for this spot are welcome. one thought i had was a support rotom-w.

synergy:
grass--> scizor, jirachi
-------------------------------------
keep in mind, i would like to keep qwilfish and ludicolo. also, i'd like to keep thunder and water pulse on jirachi. anything else is free game...

[Aquaaa]

Dude, you've posted like 5 RMTs in the past week, stop it. You can only have one active RMT on the go.

[minime1164]

please don't post unless it concerns my rain dance team.

thank you,
minime1164

PM me if you have issues with that, as we can talk it out IN PRIVATE, and i can explain the situation to you ;)

[LucaroarkZ]

The main problem I see is that Rain Dance on a Choice Scarf user is a little sketchy. For a lead, always use Rain Dance Azelf. The set looks like this:

Azelf @ Damp Rock
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Rain Dance
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

It works similarly to a regular lead Azelf, except it also sets up Rain Dance. Of course, with this change, Swampert is unnecessary (it isn't that good anyway). What I'd recommend to go over it is a Choice Scarf Rotom-W, one that looks like this:

Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
-Thunderbolt/Thunder
-Shadow Ball
-Trick
-Hydro Pump

Hydro Pump gets a 50% boost in the rain, making it harder for pursuiters such as Scizor and Weavile to switch in. Tyranitar and Hippowdon won't enjoy switching in on one either, and both of those are otherwise rock-solid counters to rain teams. Thunderbolt or Thunder is up to you. Thunderbolt is generally better outside of rain (which you won't always be in), but Thunder is better in rain and in particular does more to Dragonite.

After that, I just have a few item changes to recommend. You'll probably want at least one more user of Damp Rock, so I'd consider running Damp Rock on Kingdra. Also, use Life Orb on Ludicolo, so you can do more damage to Water-types and such with Energy Ball, helping out against one more thing that gives most Rain Dance teams problems. You should use Choice Band on Scizor. Overall its coverage is not good enough to warrant running an Expert Belt set, and a Choice Band will boost its damage even more, 100% of the time.

Good luck.

[minime1164]

ok thx. i was thinking of switching swampert with rotom-w, but i needed a stealth rocker. i never thought of azelf, even though hes commonly used. thx

EDIT: but, the only thing i don't like, is that hes susceptible to a faster taunt lead. it seems risky to put only one attack on him, and an attack that kills him too. but ill try it, seems good, only threat is a faster taunt lead( i said that twice lolz)

[minime1164]

ok, started a threat list for each pokemon. i only used smogon, getting the most common threats, so i might be missing some. feel free to improve.

new azelf lead:
choice scarf jirachi- lots of attacks, no real counter. * help needed*
aerodactyl lead- rain dance support, rather not explode on him:...( *help needed*
fake out infernape- rain dance support, only lose out on explosion. gets sr in
metagross- no real counter(need help)
tyranitar lead- cb scizor

ludicolo:
celebi- dealt with cb scizor u-turn
gengar- cb scizor+pursuit
abomasnow- cb scizor bullet punch
tyranitar- switching in, 2hko hydro pump, otherwise cb scizor superpower
blissey- cb scizor superpower

kingdra:
blissey- see above
snorlax- cb scizor superpower

qwilfish:
quagsire/gastrodon- energy ball ludicolo and explosion
suicune/vaporeon- same as above
CROCUNE- if gets cm in, might be a major threat. no real counter

scizor:
entry hazards bar toxic spikes-->forretress
( couldn't find much that threatans him, need help on threats.)

rotom-w:
tyranitar- see above
blissey- same as above
choice band scizor- lots o' lots of attacks:...( need suggestions.
metagross with pursuit- no real counter

EDIT: oops!!! forgot bronzong. have no real counter to it either.

plus, still haven't decided on jirachi or azelf. azelf can set things up right, but is very susceptible to popular leads. plus, i don't like the fact that he can ONLY be used as a lead, never attacking except for explosion, and thats predictable. on the other hand, jirachi suffers from choice leads, aerodactyl lead, and can't touch swampert/quagsire. also its vulnerable to other trick leads. on a positive note, it can also do some damage mid to late game. plus, it offers another drag resist.

as patrick star would say: it seems we hav reached an impasse...

which should i use? poll!!!!!

[Dragontongue195040]

I don't do past gen, but a tip overall, put in pictures. It makes your RMT look much nicer.

[Lazyboy]

Ok, so I haven't much experience with rain teams, but there are a ew things i can mention straight off the bat that might be of use.

In my opinion, lead zelf for a rain team is completely outclasses by Uxie (strange as it seems). Uxie has far more bulk than azelf, meaning it can come in during the mid game and set up rain again, which is great because then you don't have to risk 1 of your sweepers switching in to use rain dance. It's also got pretty much the perfect speed tier for the amount of bulk it has. Unless you run max speed, Gliscor can still speed tie with you and taunt you, which isn't perfect and faster leads like Aero and Azelf can prevent you setting up regardless, but against the aforementioned pokes, it's basically a free u-turn, zelf and aero get forced out by scizor, and you can switch Ludicolo into Gliscor for free setup (lead gliscor rarely carry toxic, so it shouldnt be a worry). Here's the set...

Uxie @ Damp Rock
Bold Nature
252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp.atk
-Rain Dance
-Stealth Rock
-Thunderbolt
- U-turn

Secondly, Scizor is currently your best switch to tyranitar/abomasnow/offensive grass types, which pretty much plague this team. That's an awful lot of pressure to put on a poke that has absolutely no recovery, my advice would be to change scizor to a specially defensive set, with either damp rock for extra turns or leftovers for longevity. This would help massively against problematic pokes such as shaymin and celebi, who currently wall Kingdra and the newly appointed Rotom-W locked into thunderbolt, and between Seed flare sp.def drops and thunder wave, respectively can really make it difficult for your team to walk away unscathed. Again, here the suggested set...

Scizor @ Leftovers/Damp Rock
Careful nature
248 HP/ 252 Sp.def/ 8 Spe (EVs are probably horribly inefficient, subject to change upon further testing)
-Bullet Punch
-Rain Dance
-Roost
-U-turn

Another major gripe I have with this team is the kingdra set, it's a little odd to say the least. HP electric is generally a weak move, especially combined with kingdras mediocre sp.atk stat and the lack of a power boosting item. I think a mixed dragon dancing set would be a much better choice. This allows you to act as a hybrid between wall breaker and sweeper, possibly opening up the opposing team for one of your secondary sweepers (Ludicolo, Qwilfish) to wreck the team. Also, by using dragon dance over rain dance, it gives you a chance to do some damage if you can't keep rain up (At +1 you outspeed Scarf Tyranitar, the biggest threat in the weather wars)

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Lonely Nature
252 Atk/ 24 Sp.atk/ 232 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Hydro Pump/ Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Waterfall

The benefits of going mixed mean you can eliminate threats such as skarm (who walls Qwilfish) or to weakne bulky water/grass types to the point where you can open up a sweep for your other pokes. Lonely nature is chosen over Naughty because Kingdras typing gives a 4x resistance to fire + water moves, most of which are specially based, so reducing sp.def seems pointless, especially as it is your best switch in to LO starmie.

Finally, with these new changes your team lacks something vital for rain teams: a decent status absorber. Common thunder wavers, namely Celebi and sp.def Rachi, can cause this team all sorts of problems. Also, you're a little weak to Gyara, Rotom-A can check it, but switching into gyaras rain boosted waterfall is going to hurt regardless. There are two routes you can go to amend this: switch Rotom-A to a rest talking Rotom, as this would give you a solid, reusable status sponge and a bulkier answer to Gyarados. Alternatively, as much as you may not like this, you could replace Ludicolo with Celebi. Celebi provides a relatively solid Gyara counter (Bounce still hurts) as well as nature cure for troublesome status. It also acts as a lure for non-scarf Tyranitar, which can be disposed of with leaf storm and also helps you with opposing water types, particularly Suicune who is 2hko'd by leaf storm, even after a calm mind.

Celebi @ Life Orb
Modest Nature
232 HP/ 240 Sp.atk/ 36 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power Ice
- Rain Dance
- Recover

It also provides you with another Rain dancer, which screws over Heatran switch ins who think they can KO you. Hidden power Ice works nicely as a way to damage Dragons, especially scarf Flygon if it attempts to check Qwilfish with earthquake.

Those are the major changes I would personally make to the team, whether or not you choose to is entirely up to you. 1 minor change I would suggest would be a bulkier spread on Rotom-W (for those of you who are paying attention, yes I am aware I recommend it on every team). An EV spread of 252 HP/ 40 Sp.atk/ 216 Speed still allows Rotom-W to check relevant threats such as Bounce Gyara, Subpetaya Empoleon and Agiligross, but gives it a bit more leeway to switch into resisted and neutral attacks.

Anyway, those are my two cents on the matter, good luck with your rain team and I hope the changes were helpful.

[LucaroarkZ]

I say no to Uxie actually just because of Taunt. You get a free U-turn and a switch to Scizor. Yeah, so what? You still failed to set up Rain Dance. Uxie has nonexistent offenses and cannot learn Explosion. Explosion could be the difference between winning a match and losing a match. Plus, Rain Dance on Scizor isn't good at all. It can set up against Aero and Azelf, and..... That's about it. Lead Aero and Azelf are nowhere near as common as they used to be, I'm telling you everyone's using leads like ShucaTran nowadays. That Celebi set is awful, and your Kingdra set is actually ok; HP Electric actually works for Gyarados. For Scizor, you should really only be using one of these three sets: Choice Band, Swords Dance, or Choice Scarf (and with Scarf Rotom on your team, Choice Scarf is redundant). A Mixed Rain Dance set may be better for Kingdra, but I'll have to think about that more, I literally just thought of it.

[minime1164]

i like the uxie idea, mostly because he isn'tnas effected by taunt. i can still at least 2hko taunt aero. but i don't like the thought of replacing ludicolo. one because hes my favorite pokemon, but mostly because he is a great, effective sweeper, with great coverage and not bad typing. also, i don't like celebi unless hes with heatran, as it has too many common weaknesses, like heracross's megahorn.

i like the kingdra set a lot. mostly, because it can take down blissey and skarmory, though abwell timed thunder might succeed

btw, scizor isn't so much a sweeper, as he doesn't benefit from rain, but more like a threat killer. generally, he would only be used wen t-tar, etc. is predicted. but that seems like a good set. i didn't pick more defensive pokemon because my team is mainly offensive.

still, seems like it could work as a team, cept more defensive.

thx for the reply. also, d-tongue, ill put some pics in

EDIT: sry guys. bing images is being retarded and wont let me copy paste them, as no images are shown :...(...

[Lazyboy]

ok, so let me get this straight, you expect azelf, a lead that every other lead is pretty much designed to beat, to get 2 free turns out set up to use both Rain dance and SR without a focus sash? please tell me how you're doing this as clearly I'm using it wrong. As for your criticisms of uxie, you don't set up Rain dance, but they don't set up SR, you still have a full health poke and you have momentum, and this is bad for a 1st turn play?

Scizor can only set up on 2 pokes? really? Considering how many pokes are forced out by scizor (TTar, Sub split gengar, Starmie, celebi at -2, shaymin, mamoswine) I can see how you can say scizor would never get an oppertunity to set up </sarcasm>. Also, slow U-turn to give frail rain sweepers a free switchin is an awful idea, I dont know why i even suggested it, because clearly you have a much better idea...oh wait. Alos, as you're not choice locked, you can risk a u-turn if gyara switches in. Scizor is probably going to take them a lot better than rotom, as he has plenty of opportunities to roost the damage off, despite what you say.

As for the celebi set, you're use of explaining why it's bad is inspiring, you fail to mention any reason why its bad, you just condmn it for the sake of it, whereas I've provided numerous reasons for it's inclusion, namely being able to outspeed and 2hko crocune, which minime mentioned he has a shaky answer to.

But hey, every silver lining, at least you liked the kingdra set, apart from the fact you mentioned you still intend to change it...

If you actually want to provide a decent rate for the team (which in fairness you've already done, Rotom-W was a good addition) be my guest, if you're going to sit there and criticize other people thoughts for no apparent reason, more power to you, but it's not really gunna change my thoughts on the team.

[The Exeggutor]

Originally Posted by Fat Lazyboy

ok, so let me get this straight, you expect azelf, a lead that every other lead is pretty much designed to beat, to get 2 free turns out set up to use both Rain dance and SR without a focus sash? please tell me how you're doing this as clearly I'm using it wrong. As for your criticisms of uxie, you don't set up Rain dance, but they don't set up SR, you still have a full health poke and you have momentum, and this is bad for a 1st turn play?

Scizor can only set up on 2 pokes? really? Considering how many pokes are forced out by scizor (TTar, Sub split gengar, Starmie, celebi at -2, shaymin, mamoswine) I can see how you can say scizor would never get an oppertunity to set up </sarcasm>. Also, slow U-turn to give frail rain sweepers a free switchin is an awful idea, I dont know why i even suggested it, because clearly you have a much better idea...oh wait. Alos, as you're not choice locked, you can risk a u-turn if gyara switches in. Scizor is probably going to take them a lot better than rotom, as he has plenty of opportunities to roost the damage off, despite what you say.

As for the celebi set, you're use of explaining why it's bad is inspiring, you fail to mention any reason why its bad, you just condmn it for the sake of it, whereas I've provided numerous reasons for it's inclusion, namely being able to outspeed and 2hko crocune, which minime mentioned he has a shaky answer to.

But hey, every silver lining, at least you liked the kingdra set, apart from the fact you mentioned you still intend to change it...

If you actually want to provide a decent rate for the team (which in fairness you've already done, Rotom-W was a good addition) be my guest, if you're going to sit there and criticize other people thoughts for no apparent reason, more power to you, but it's not really gunna change my thoughts on the team.

I applaud the amount of win in this post

[Imanalt]

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

I say no to Uxie actually just because of Taunt. You get a free U-turn and a switch to Scizor. Yeah, so what? You still failed to set up Rain Dance. Uxie has nonexistent offenses and cannot learn Explosion. Explosion could be the difference between winning a match and losing a match. Plus, Rain Dance on Scizor isn't good at all. It can set up against Aero and Azelf, and..... That's about it. Lead Aero and Azelf are nowhere near as common as they used to be, I'm telling you everyone's using leads like ShucaTran nowadays. That Celebi set is awful, and your Kingdra set is actually ok; HP Electric actually works for Gyarados. For Scizor, you should really only be using one of these three sets: Choice Band, Swords Dance, or Choice Scarf (and with Scarf Rotom on your team, Choice Scarf is redundant). A Mixed Rain Dance set may be better for Kingdra, but I'll have to think about that more, I literally just thought of it.

I have to object to this. Yes, uxie lead dislikes taunt, but as you said, aero and zelf usage as leads are not as common as they used to be, and theyre the 2 most common taunt leads.

Next, his celebi set is just the standard Tinkerbell, and while it isnt as good as it used to be, it is sitll a very viable set.

FInally, my biggest objection is your comments on scizor. It is one of the best rain setters, as it can easily beat tyranitar, meaning that rain lasts a bit longer as it cant switch in. RD scizor is a better set than scarfed scizor, which has very small niches...

[minime1164]

actually, subsplit gengar is onnly really forced out by PURSUIT scizor, which ur suggestion didnt hav. but, lazyboy, u said celebi counters heatran,....but would't any rain dance STAB do the trick, at least 2hko. also, i took some of your suggestions to mind, maybe not on this team, but the next(hehehe). the thing i might use tho, is 80percent probably ur kingndra set. i wouldn't want to face that with a blissey lolz
btw: yayses for amount of viewers!!!!!!
Also: what do u guys think of my jirachi set? don't think that set is on smogon!!

[Aquaaa]

You realise Gengar is OHKO'd by Scizor's Bullet Punch...Right? And pretty much every Scizor set uses Pursuit because most are Choice Band sets...

[minime1164]

my mistake, i thought gengar was 2hko by bullet punch. good catch aquaaa.
if i want to use scizor RD, bt want to keep it as a threat killer, what would be the advisable move to replace? pursuit or superpower? or should i just use lazyboy's set?

[Lazyboy]

It's forced out after its sub is broken, and yes, whilst you can't KO it with pursuit, you have access to a better form of recovery than it does, especially as many pokes on your team don't have particularly high base HP. This means you can usually outlast it. You could run pursuit over U-turn if you really felt it necessary, but providing a free switch in with a slow U-turn for frail sweepers like Qwilfish is pretty valuable.

If I said celebi counters heatran, then my apologies, becuase it doesn't, especially when its only attacking moves are resisted. But by using rain dance, it can hamper some of it's initial switch ins. Heatrans fire blast will do little damage in rain, and tyranitar loses its sp.def boost from sandstorm, meaning it can't hope to survive a leaf storm. It's main role was to be a counter to bulky water types such as crocune and vaporeon, who could be problematic to your team.

By all means, they are exactly that, suggestions. As long as you find it helpful in some way, thats fine by me

[minime1164]

the celebi suggestion was nice, thank you. other major threats to my team are jirachi, bronzong, and metagross. what can fix this?

[minime1164]

as a medium, instead of azelf or uxie, why not zoidberg?lol. no seriously, what about the jirachi set i posted, with trick switched to sr and choice scarf switched to damp rock? i gain a valuable dragon resist, plus able to take pursuits and u-turns. also, leadrachi is also able to help out by absorbing t. spikes and damaging midgame.

very happy no one suggested kabutops over qwilfish. behind ludicolo, qwilfish is my 2nd favorite poke, plus qwilfish brings a physically sweeping set to the table, with the extra benefit of explosion.

then, switchmkingdra to mixdra, except rain dance mixdra(look at smogon) life orb attached.

still torn between my pineapple and the celebi set. do i want a sweeper or a bulky water blocker?

scizor: maybe the same ev spread but substitute pursuit with roost, idk what item.

rotom-w with evs suggested by lazyboy as i like the ability to keep empoleon and gross in check.

basically, it would look like this:

jirachi @damp rock
modest
4 hp/252 s. attack/252 speed
thunder
water pulse
rain dance
stealth rock

scizor @leftovers
adamant
248 hp/252 attack/8 speed
roost
bullet punch
superpower
u-turn

qwilfish @life orb
adamant
252 attack/4 defence/252 speed
waterfall
poison jab
swords dance
explosion

rotom-w @choice scarf
modest
252 hp/40 s. attack/216 speed
thunder
hydro pump
shadow ball
trick

ludicolo @life orb
modest
32 hp/252 s. attack/224 speed
energy ball
ice beam
surf
rain dance

kingdra @lum berry
lonely
252 attack/24 s. attack/232 speed
dragon dance
waterfall
outrage
draco meteor

how does it look now. i kept ludicolo over celebi because i feel that, after repeated hits of STAB poison jab/outrage, that crocune and vaporeon are going down. i didn't change the evs on scizor because he is mostly an attacking pokemon. ill use the mixdra set cuz of blissey countering, and rotom-w over swampert( lol ).

****changes are still welcome****