(Programming) Pokemon+ : Luck-free server (DONE!)

Innocent Criminal · Jun 25th, 2011, 1:48:11 PM

POKEMON+ Custom Server

While I believe the official ladder should perfectly follow in-game mechanics, an alternate ladder offering a completely deterministic game can provide be interesting alternate experience, not only because of how frustrating it is to lose to the RNG, but mostly because it promotes and rewards deeper strategy.
All the changes made also help balance the game, as countering becomes more reliable and new revenge killing options appears thanks to the altered speed tie mechanics. Here, the only cases when the game needs to call the RNG are first turn speed ties, and everything else is purely deterministic.

There is no need to download anything, you can already chose this server from PO's list. This also means that the teambuilder will still show standard move description, but no BP was altered.

In order to avoid unnecessary code bloating and to stay close from the official metagame, these luck-based moves are banned :

Move Banlist

Sleep Talk is also banned for now as it's almost never seen in BW OU and any deterministic implementation would be way too potent. Magma Storm is banned for now, in later playtesting we could find a way to balance it.

Here's the mechanics changelist :

Mechanics Changelist

Random critical hits can't happen anymore, but moves that always crit still do.
No move will ever miss, no matter what.
Damage is always be the average of min and max rolls, rounded down. Using 92 as the random multiplier.
Protect, Detect and Endure always fail when used consecutively.
Phazing always sends the first available pokemon in the party.
Sleep always lasts two turns and the sleep counter does not reset upon switching (similar to 4th Gen Rest).
Trapping moves (Bind, Magma Storm) always last 4 turns (5 with Grip Claw).
Multi-hit moves always hit min+1 times (max with Skill Link).
Outrage, Petal Dance and Thrash always lasts two turns and lowers the user's Atk and SpA 2 stages when it ends.
Charge Beam always raise SpA, but every other luck-based secondary effect was scraped. A consequence is that freezing can't happen anymore. Sheer Force still boosts the moves it used to (intended).
Full paralysis never happens and confusion was banished to the moon. Machamp is reportedly crying under a tree.
Moves such as Scald, Lava Plume, Discharge, Body Slam and Force Palm always inflict status on the second consecutive attempt. Thunder does not. Abilities such as Flame Body activate after hitting the bearer twice consecutively with a contact move. Shed Skin always activates after three turns (including the turn when you get statused).
Def and SpD boosts will go away after being struck 20 times (counting from when you got the first boost). It will be announced as a critical hit because the server can't send custom messages, but damage doesn't get doubled.
Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Thunder, Blizzard, Focus Blast, Megahorn and Gunk Shot the user's corresponding offensive stat on stage. Thunder, Hurricane and Blizzard do not under their respective weathers, but the rain moves lose half of their power under the sun. Seed Flare, Power Whip and lolMegaKick do not have downsides for now.
If both leads tie in speed, the first pokemon to be sent will go first. After that, every tie will be determined by the previous turn :
** If both sides moved, whichever side moved last will win the tie.
** If one side switched, it will win the tie.
** If both sides switched, the outcome will be determined from the previous turn.

reyscarface · Jun 25th, 2011, 6:00:06 PM

smashlloyd20 · Jun 25th, 2011, 6:19:56 PM

Might want to make Flame Charge raise Speed all the time too.

***JabbaTheGriffin**** · Jun 25th, 2011, 8:09:59 PM

assuming crits are gone too ?_?

looking forward to this

DetroitLolcat · Jun 25th, 2011, 9:21:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat OP

Make it so you lose your defense boosts after being struck 20 times without switching (Guard Break, prevents CM wars from turning into PP stall).

Don't do this. If you want to win the CM war use Psyshock. And it takes a strategy (forcing a PP war as a last-ditch effort) out of the game. It doesn't reduce hax either as you're probably taking crits out anyway.

Lady Salamence · Jun 25th, 2011, 10:49:34 PM

This would change the metagame, TBH. If this DOES work out, anyone want to attemp a Tournament for it?

DetroitLolcat · Jun 25th, 2011, 11:16:11 PM

Will low-accuracy moves be nerfed in any way? As DynamicPunch or Zap Cannon would be incredibly broken. What about hax chances that have more than a 50% chance to hit like Jirachi Iron Head?

Or Charge Beam?

masterful · Jun 25th, 2011, 11:20:33 PM

I like this a lot. If this is for Gen 5 Whimsicott with Grasswhistle is going to be the most broken thing ever, so I'm assuming it's not

Ryukenbo · Jun 26th, 2011, 2:33:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat masterful

I like this a lot. If this is for Gen 5 Whimsicott with Grasswhistle is going to be the most broken thing ever, so I'm assuming it's not

Agreed.

Xav · Jun 26th, 2011, 3:54:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat reyscarface

Indeed.

eric the espeon · Jun 26th, 2011, 4:02:35 AM

Quite a few abilities would need to be banned (or massively altered). Effect Spore, Static, Flame Body, Cute Charm, Poison Point, Shed Skin, Cursed Body, Healer, Poison Touch, Wonder Skin. Maybe a few more. Attract/infatuation would go. And crits (other than on the 100% crit moves).

Glad someone is making this. Would be good to have somewhere for players who don't want any luck to play.

Innocent Criminal · Jun 26th, 2011, 5:42:32 AM

I forgot to put it in the OP, but of course, random crits don't happen anymore. 100% Crit moves still work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat smashlloyd20

Might want to make Flame Charge raise Speed all the time too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat DetroitLolcat

What about hax chances that have more than a 50% chance to hit like Jirachi Iron Head?

Or Charge Beam?

All guaranteed secondary effects were kept but everything else got the boot. I just ran a script through the database to remove any probability below 100%, but set Charge Beam to always work as stated in the OP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat DetroitLolcat

Will low-accuracy moves be nerfed in any way? As DynamicPunch or Zap Cannon would be incredibly broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Yoki

In order to keep code modification to the strict minimum and to stay close from the official metagame, luck-based moves are banned. This only includes moves such as Assist, Metronome, Magnitude, Present or Dynamic Punch.

This ^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat DetroitLolcat

Don't do this. If you want to win the CM war use Psyshock. And it takes a strategy (forcing a PP war as a last-ditch effort) out of the game. It doesn't reduce hax either as you're probably taking crits out anyway.

Well, this is low-priority anyway, as in, I'll only do it if the need for it arises during playtesting. Guard breaking would involve more strategy than PP stalling while being much more enjoyable, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat masterful

I like this a lot. If this is for Gen 5 Whimsicott with Grasswhistle is going to be the most broken thing ever, so I'm assuming it's not

Since Hypnosis is banned, Grasswhistle and Sing share the same fate. The sleep counter does not reset upon switching to balance Sleep Powder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

Quite a few abilities would need to be banned (or massively altered). Effect Spore, Static, Flame Body, Cute Charm, Poison Point, Shed Skin, Cursed Body, Healer, Poison Touch, Wonder Skin. Maybe a few more. Attract/infatuation would go. And crits (other than on the 100% crit moves).

Glad someone is making this. Would be good to have somewhere for players who don't want any luck to play.

All of these abilities are allowed but disabled and Attract is obviously banned. I also disabled Rivalry, as this is basically a combination of luck and teambuilder design abuse... I might make it so that all 30% effects (such as Scald, Flame Body but also Shed Skin) except flinching, confusion and infatuation will always happen on the second consecutive attempt. This is very, very low priority though, it definitely won't be in the first release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Lady Salamence

This would change the metagame, TBH. If this DOES work out, anyone want to attemp a Tournament for it?

I expect it to, but I think it will create a positive shift. When I say it should stay close to the BW OU metagame, I mean that it should use the same banlist and analyses should still be relevant (so no move BP, statspread or moveset change) but it won't be a seamless transition.*I don't think we will need to ban anything more than BW OU, as most (if not all) of the changes nerf offense. The 120 BP modification means Thundurus can no longer blast his way through Blissey, and Starmie can't Hydro Pump spam in the rain anymore. Without critical hits, random miss or Rock Slide flinches, countering will also become much more reliable, and the new speed tie mechanic will make revenge killing a lot easier. Considering the metagame will probably be less offensive even without Sleep Talk, I'm not sure it's ever going back. Any deterministic implementation would be a huge, unneeded buff to defensive play.

I don't have time to code right now, but this is definitely going to happen, as there are no technical barriers preventing what is left to do. Help would be gladly appreciated ;)
I would also like to know if anyone would be willing to host this when it is finally done ? My horrible connection prevents me from hosting it myself, but this shouldn't produce much load.

tomtom5858 · Jun 27th, 2011, 5:57:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat reyscarface

You took the words from my mouth, ray.

Innocent Criminal · Jun 27th, 2011, 6:00:07 PM

It's done, and the server is up and running !
The complete changelist can be found in the first post. Most of these are what you would expect from a luckless server, with a few twists :

Moves such as Scald, Lava Plume, Discharge, Body Slam and Force Palm always inflict status on the second consecutive attempt. Thunder does not. Abilities such as Flame Body activate after hitting the bearer twice consecutively with a contact move. Shed Skin always activates after three turns (including the turn when you get statused).
Def and SpD boosts will go away after being struck 20 times (counting from the frst boost). It will be announced as a critical hit because the server can't send custom messages, but damage doesn't get doubled.
120BP, inaccurate moves now lower the user's corresponding offensive stat on stage. Thunder, Hurricane and Blizzard do not under their respective weathers. Seed Flare and Power Whip do not have downsides for now.
If both leads tie in speed, the first pokemon to be sent will go first. After that, every tie will be determined by the previous turn :
** If both players moved, whichever side moved last will win the tie.
** If one side switched, it will win the tie.
** If both sides switched, the outcome will be determined from the previous turn.

The only ladder is BW OU, following Smogon's ruleset with, of course, additional move bans. Luck-based abilities are either modified or disabled, but allowed.

Feel free to try it, report bugs and offer suggestions !

If someone from the smogon staff sees this, can I make a quick advertisement on the Smogon server ? Thank you.

MewMaster · Jun 27th, 2011, 6:27:04 PM

Just a quick note: you banned DynamicPunch and Zap Cannon, but not Inferno, which is basically the same move. Great idea as a whole, btw.

Innocent Criminal · Jun 27th, 2011, 6:35:51 PM

Thanks for the feedback, I just corrected this. Could you please try to connect to the server and see if it works ? It doesn't work for me from the PO list, but only when connecting to localhost.
EDIT : It does work.

panamaxis · Jun 28th, 2011, 8:43:28 AM

Quote:

** If both players moved, whichever side moved last will win the tie.

Might be worth thinking about making this so whichever side moves first wins the tie (avoids people running the timer down to 0:01 so they can win a potentially very important speed tie?)

Innocent Criminal · Jun 28th, 2011, 9:44:07 AM

Oh, I guess the way I worded it can be confusing : I meant that the player whose pokemon moved last during the previous turn will lose the tie. For exemple, if Jirachi Subs and Scizor U-Turns out to Zapdos, then Zapdos will win the speed tie because Jirachi moved before Scizor. Should both pokemons stay in, the next tie would be won by Jirachi because Zapdos outsped it last turn, and so on.

EDIT : Status glitch fixed, I don't know how it got through. Server back up.
EDIT2 : Server back up, BeatUp segfaults for no apparent reason.I don't have time right now so I temporarily disabled it. I went through some of the battle logs, and everything else seems to be working as it should, though.

**Jirachi** · Jun 28th, 2011, 3:43:42 PM

Can you put the ip of the server here so we can connect through advanced connection?

Lady Salamence · Jun 28th, 2011, 4:06:46 PM

I VM'ed Yoki about the IP problem.

BTW: I've talked to Yoki the idea of running a tournament using the server, he said I could after the glitches are gone. Do not apply for it, damnit.

Innocent Criminal · Jun 28th, 2011, 4:41:30 PM

Why do you need it ? You can connect to it from the server list, which btw show the IP and port. It's currently 90.61.162.208:5080, but the IP might change. There was 7 players connected at some time, so it most definitely works. If you didn't find it, then it must have been down at that time because BeatUp crashed it while I wasn't home.

About the tournament, you can file the application right now, as this will take much more time than making sure there aren't any glitches left anyway (especially considering this kind of tourney has low priority). The status glitch was an interaction between the very first and last modifications I made and Beat Up is, well, Beat Up, but everything else is already well tested. After fixing Beat Up, I will test everything again with the latest build, just to be sure.

Delta 2777 · Jun 28th, 2011, 10:07:45 PM

Does the last bulletpoint apply to Fire Blast as well?

undisputed · Jun 28th, 2011, 10:11:54 PM

man this is really cool. thanks for doing this

Ooka · Jun 29th, 2011, 3:32:05 AM

Haven't posted here in quite a while, but wanted to show my support on this.

Keep up the good work, this will definitely be a fun alternative to the current metagame, and with the removal of hax it's definitely extremely altering. I know a lot of people have wanted to try this for a long time. :)

Innocent Criminal · Jun 29th, 2011, 4:03:39 AM

Yes, Fire Blast does lower SpA 1 stage. The reasoning behind these changes is that choosing between Hydro Pump or Surf should still be a choice between power and reliability. -1 STAB*Fire Blast has 80BP, so STABed moves are still usable on turn two, but you basically lose your coverage. This could change depending on what the metagame turns out to be, but don't forget offense also got some nice buffs and nasty strategies.

The only "perfect" 120 BP moves are Seed Flare (traded its powerful secondary effect for some accuracy) and Power Whip (hardly overpowering). The latter might be made to also lower Attack, depending on the evolution of the metagame and the community's opinion.

Thanks for the support, I really hope this will become something.

Jun 25th, 2011, 1:48:11 PM	#1
Innocent Criminal Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 138 Paris, France	Pokemon+ : Luck-free server (DONE!) POKEMON+ Custom Server While I believe the official ladder should perfectly follow in-game mechanics, an alternate ladder offering a completely deterministic game can provide be interesting alternate experience, not only because of how frustrating it is to lose to the RNG, but mostly because it promotes and rewards deeper strategy. All the changes made also help balance the game, as countering becomes more reliable and new revenge killing options appears thanks to the altered speed tie mechanics. Here, the only cases when the game needs to call the RNG are first turn speed ties, and everything else is purely deterministic. There is no need to download anything, you can already chose this server from PO's list. This also means that the teambuilder will still show standard move description, but no BP was altered. In order to avoid unnecessary code bloating and to stay close from the official metagame, these luck-based moves are banned : Move Banlist Acupressure, Assist, BeatUp, Double Team, DynamicPunch, GrassWhistle, Hypnosis, Inferno, Magma Storm, Magnitude, Metronome, Minimize, Present, Sing, Sleep Talk, Zap Cannon, OHKO moves Sleep Talk is also banned for now as it's almost never seen in BW OU and any deterministic implementation would be way too potent. Magma Storm is banned for now, in later playtesting we could find a way to balance it. Here's the mechanics changelist : Mechanics Changelist Random critical hits can't happen anymore, but moves that always crit still do. No move will ever miss, no matter what. Damage is always be the average of min and max rolls, rounded down. Using 92 as the random multiplier. Protect, Detect and Endure always fail when used consecutively. Phazing always sends the first available pokemon in the party. Sleep always lasts two turns and the sleep counter does not reset upon switching (similar to 4th Gen Rest). Trapping moves (Bind, Magma Storm) always last 4 turns (5 with Grip Claw). Multi-hit moves always hit min+1 times (max with Skill Link). Outrage, Petal Dance and Thrash always lasts two turns and lowers the user's Atk and SpA 2 stages when it ends. Charge Beam always raise SpA, but every other luck-based secondary effect was scraped. A consequence is that freezing can't happen anymore. Sheer Force still boosts the moves it used to (intended). Full paralysis never happens and confusion was banished to the moon. Machamp is reportedly crying under a tree. Moves such as Scald, Lava Plume, Discharge, Body Slam and Force Palm always inflict status on the second consecutive attempt. Thunder does not. Abilities such as Flame Body activate after hitting the bearer twice consecutively with a contact move. Shed Skin always activates after three turns (including the turn when you get statused). Def and SpD boosts will go away after being struck 20 times (counting from when you got the first boost). It will be announced as a critical hit because the server can't send custom messages, but damage doesn't get doubled. Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Thunder, Blizzard, Focus Blast, Megahorn and Gunk Shot the user's corresponding offensive stat on stage. Thunder, Hurricane and Blizzard do not under their respective weathers, but the rain moves lose half of their power under the sun. Seed Flare, Power Whip and lolMegaKick do not have downsides for now. If both leads tie in speed, the first pokemon to be sent will go first. After that, every tie will be determined by the previous turn : If both sides moved, whichever side moved last will win the tie. If one side switched, it will win the tie. ** If both sides switched, the outcome will be determined from the previous turn. Last edited by Innocent Criminal; Jul 1st, 2011 at 8:25:06 AM.

Jun 25th, 2011, 6:19:56 PM	#3
smashlloyd20 Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,814 Erry day im HEAD SMASHING	Might want to make Flame Charge raise Speed all the time too. __________________ Ten million fireflies

Jun 25th, 2011, 8:09:59 PM	#4
*JabbaTheGriffin Kid just rages for a while Super Moderator** Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,849 you get sloppy drunk, i stay whiskey neat	assuming crits are gone too ?_? looking forward to this __________________

Jun 25th, 2011, 10:49:34 PM	#6
Lady Salamence radda radda Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,291 ROFL ROFL ROFL	This would change the metagame, TBH. If this DOES work out, anyone want to attemp a Tournament for it? __________________ oh dear [sigpic] broke

Jun 25th, 2011, 11:16:11 PM	#7
DetroitLolcat It's Great! To Be! A Michigan Wolverine! Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,795	Will low-accuracy moves be nerfed in any way? As DynamicPunch or Zap Cannon would be incredibly broken. What about hax chances that have more than a 50% chance to hit like Jirachi Iron Head? Or Charge Beam? __________________ Favorite Pokemon-Swampert- formerly OU and staying that way. Cats are awesome, the best kind of cat is the Detroit Lion! Lolcat Nuzlocke Story http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou11556879 Last edited by DetroitLolcat; Jun 26th, 2011 at 12:40:26 AM.

Jun 25th, 2011, 6:00:06 PM	#2
reyscarface Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,016

Jun 25th, 2011, 11:20:33 PM	#8
masterful Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,884 The land of the champions	I like this a lot. If this is for Gen 5 Whimsicott with Grasswhistle is going to be the most broken thing ever, so I'm assuming it's not __________________

Jun 26th, 2011, 4:02:35 AM	#11
eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,695	Quite a few abilities would need to be banned (or massively altered). Effect Spore, Static, Flame Body, Cute Charm, Poison Point, Shed Skin, Cursed Body, Healer, Poison Touch, Wonder Skin. Maybe a few more. Attract/infatuation would go. And crits (other than on the 100% crit moves). Glad someone is making this. Would be good to have somewhere for players who don't want any luck to play. __________________ For people who like storing things: The Box Reading and LC? LCF, LC Guide, LC Analyses Good channels: #littlecup, #C&C, #1v1, others And for SCMS editors: SCMS group ete on IRC. Goodbye Smogon. Good luck, was fun while it lasted.

Jun 27th, 2011, 6:00:07 PM	#14
Innocent Criminal Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 138 Paris, France	It's done, and the server is up and running ! The complete changelist can be found in the first post. Most of these are what you would expect from a luckless server, with a few twists : Moves such as Scald, Lava Plume, Discharge, Body Slam and Force Palm always inflict status on the second consecutive attempt. Thunder does not. Abilities such as Flame Body activate after hitting the bearer twice consecutively with a contact move. Shed Skin always activates after three turns (including the turn when you get statused). Def and SpD boosts will go away after being struck 20 times (counting from the frst boost). It will be announced as a critical hit because the server can't send custom messages, but damage doesn't get doubled. 120BP, inaccurate moves now lower the user's corresponding offensive stat on stage. Thunder, Hurricane and Blizzard do not under their respective weathers. Seed Flare and Power Whip do not have downsides for now. If both leads tie in speed, the first pokemon to be sent will go first. After that, every tie will be determined by the previous turn : If both players moved, whichever side moved last will win the tie. If one side switched, it will win the tie. ** If both sides switched, the outcome will be determined from the previous turn. The only ladder is BW OU, following Smogon's ruleset with, of course, additional move bans. Luck-based abilities are either modified or disabled, but allowed. Feel free to try it, report bugs and offer suggestions ! If someone from the smogon staff sees this, can I make a quick advertisement on the Smogon server ? Thank you.

Jun 27th, 2011, 6:27:04 PM	#15
MewMaster Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 31	Just a quick note: you banned DynamicPunch and Zap Cannon, but not Inferno, which is basically the same move. Great idea as a whole, btw. __________________ My White FC: 5286 1328 4448. Legit hack is an oxymoron.

Jun 27th, 2011, 6:35:51 PM	#16
Innocent Criminal Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 138 Paris, France	Thanks for the feedback, I just corrected this. Could you please try to connect to the server and see if it works ? It doesn't work for me from the PO list, but only when connecting to localhost. EDIT : It does work. Last edited by Innocent Criminal; Jun 28th, 2011 at 4:49:42 AM.

Jun 28th, 2011, 9:44:07 AM	#18
Innocent Criminal Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 138 Paris, France	Oh, I guess the way I worded it can be confusing : I meant that the player whose pokemon moved last during the previous turn will lose the tie. For exemple, if Jirachi Subs and Scizor U-Turns out to Zapdos, then Zapdos will win the speed tie because Jirachi moved before Scizor. Should both pokemons stay in, the next tie would be won by Jirachi because Zapdos outsped it last turn, and so on. EDIT : Status glitch fixed, I don't know how it got through. Server back up. EDIT2 : Server back up, BeatUp segfaults for no apparent reason.I don't have time right now so I temporarily disabled it. I went through some of the battle logs, and everything else seems to be working as it should, though. Last edited by Innocent Criminal; Jun 28th, 2011 at 2:48:10 PM.

Jun 28th, 2011, 3:43:42 PM	#19
Jirachi No excuses. Moderator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 975 #27 Galchenyuk Mentor	Can you put the ip of the server here so we can connect through advanced connection?

Jun 28th, 2011, 4:06:46 PM	#20
Lady Salamence radda radda Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,291 ROFL ROFL ROFL	I VM'ed Yoki about the IP problem. BTW: I've talked to Yoki the idea of running a tournament using the server, he said I could after the glitches are gone. Do not apply for it, damnit. __________________ oh dear [sigpic] broke

Jun 28th, 2011, 4:41:30 PM	#21
Innocent Criminal Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 138 Paris, France	Why do you need it ? You can connect to it from the server list, which btw show the IP and port. It's currently 90.61.162.208:5080, but the IP might change. There was 7 players connected at some time, so it most definitely works. If you didn't find it, then it must have been down at that time because BeatUp crashed it while I wasn't home. About the tournament, you can file the application right now, as this will take much more time than making sure there aren't any glitches left anyway (especially considering this kind of tourney has low priority). The status glitch was an interaction between the very first and last modifications I made and Beat Up is, well, Beat Up, but everything else is already well tested. After fixing Beat Up, I will test everything again with the latest build, just to be sure.

Jun 28th, 2011, 10:07:45 PM	#22
Delta 2777 5% determination, 10% concentration, 85% luck Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,192	Does the last bulletpoint apply to Fire Blast as well?

Jun 28th, 2011, 10:11:54 PM	#23
undisputed The greatest oak was once a little nut that held its ground Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,031 Came by a fork in the road, and went straight	man this is really cool. thanks for doing this __________________

Jun 29th, 2011, 3:32:05 AM	#24
Ooka Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 282	Haven't posted here in quite a while, but wanted to show my support on this. Keep up the good work, this will definitely be a fun alternative to the current metagame, and with the removal of hax it's definitely extremely altering. I know a lot of people have wanted to try this for a long time. :)

Jun 29th, 2011, 4:03:39 AM	#25
Innocent Criminal Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 138 Paris, France	Yes, Fire Blast does lower SpA 1 stage. The reasoning behind these changes is that choosing between Hydro Pump or Surf should still be a choice between power and reliability. -1 STAB*Fire Blast has 80BP, so STABed moves are still usable on turn two, but you basically lose your coverage. This could change depending on what the metagame turns out to be, but don't forget offense also got some nice buffs and nasty strategies. The only "perfect" 120 BP moves are Seed Flare (traded its powerful secondary effect for some accuracy) and Power Whip (hardly overpowering). The latter might be made to also lower Attack, depending on the evolution of the metagame and the community's opinion. Thanks for the support, I really hope this will become something.