np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

[PsYch071c]

Originally Posted by Fat SStats

Also, 252 HP/252 Def + Chansey has
125,664 physical durability and
259,776 special durability
after Eviolite.

252 HP/252 SDef + Porygon2 has
121,176 physical durability and
177,837 special durability
after Eviolite

Apparently Chansey's even bulkier than P2 against non-Chandelure opponents. Physically defensive P2 can have more physical durability but has like half Chansey's special durability. Add in Natural Cure, Wish-passing, Aromatherapy, Stealth Rock, etc.--dang, what a great support Pokemon. P2 does thankfully have good offense, but I might have to start running Analytic on him for the LO boost in order to distinguish him from Chansey to the fullest.

I have no idea where to begin....I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about with those calcs lol. Anyway, these are two completely different pokemon who fill completely different niches, Chansey being a special (and often physical) wall and P2 being an offensive tank as well as a utility counter to many common threats. Don't just try to distinguish a pokemon from another by running an inferior set, as you apperently are going to do. If you think the other poke works better, then use it. You are gimping yourself otherwise.

[SStats]

Originally Posted by Fat PsYch071c

I have no idea where to begin....I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about with those calcs lol. Anyway, these are two completely different pokemon who fill completely different niches, Chansey being a special (and often physical) wall and P2 being an offensive tank as well as a utility counter to many common threats. Don't just try to distinguish a pokemon from another by running an inferior set, as you apperently are going to do. If you think the other poke works better, then use it. You are gimping yourself otherwise.

The Pokemon damage formula ends up multiplying S/Def and HP to calculate damage, so a Pokemon's physical durability is [real HP stat] * [real Def stat], and special durability is [real HP stat] * [real SDef stat]. Makes for easy durability comparisons.

Working from this is the way you maximize the benefit from EVs (making HP as close to S/Def as possible, or if maximizing both defenses, making HP twice S/Def), for instance, so I thought the nature of the calcs was apparent.

You seem to have misunderstood me. I like Porygon2 as a Pokemon. If I were to use it and build a team around it, however, I would want to avoid simply using an inferior Chansey. I'd want to build a team around a set that does something that Chansey can't do (and not "counter Chandelure" and the odd Pokemon here or there with Trace). It's hardly inferior if the team is built to fit with the set, and the set itself doesn't suck (as Analytic P2 does not).

It's not about gimping myself. Indeed, quite the opposite. It's about finding a way to use something I like without gimping myself.

[TM13IceBeam]

I understand that P2 is an inferior Chansey but what the hell can P2 do that Chansey does better? I mean, P2 can't Wishpass, SR, Cleric, and Chansey is bullshit at offense. They are two completely different things that just happen to have the same typing and use the same item to function.

[SStats]

I understand that P2 is an inferior Chansey but what the hell can P2 do that Chansey does better? I mean, P2 can't Wishpass, SR, Cleric, and Chansey is bullshit at offense. They are two completely different things that just happen to have the same typing and use the same item to function.

They're both very bulky things that are usually used to switch into special attackers. Chansey has good physical defense, but you usually don't want to be switching her *into* a Band Flygon Outrage, say--both of them would rather be switching into something like a Scarf Flygon Outrage some of the time while switching into special attackers more often (though you can EV Porygon2 to be able to take Band Outrage quite well, opting out of the special defensive spread, which isn't a bad idea). Except for the extra things given by Trace, you can use both of them to wall a lot of the same stuff--difference is, of course, Chansey does it better, due to taking special hits about 46% better.

I bring up the comparison because currently Porygon2 is just as bulky as anything commonly considered bulky in UU. Cresselia edges it out only very slightly (by 4-5,000 on each side), and that is just absurdly good. Even Snorlax, who is a top choice for special wall, is only a tiny bit bulkier than P2 on the special side, and much less so on the physical side. Specially the difference is like 183k to 177k or about 3% better. For an actual damage comparison instead of a direct durability comparison:

252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Mew Aura Sphere vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Snorlax (+SpDef) : 54.96% - 64.89%
252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Mew Aura Sphere vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Porygon2 (+SpDef) : 57.22% - 67.38%

So they're taking similar amounts of damage from special things. But as the durability calcs suggest, Chansey is taking much less. Something like:
252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Mew Aura Sphere vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 38.92% - 45.74%

So prior to Chansey's descent (if it descends), Porygon2 is one of your best choices to switch into strong special attacks while also taking unboosted physical hits, if not your best choice due to its ability to also use Toxic/TWave, recover, and threaten your opponent with 105 base SAtk. But Chansey is pretty much superior to this guy at doing that, except with much more utility instead of offense.

Analytic P2 is a different beast, and it doesn't do quite what Chansey does. With what basically amounts to a free Life Orb boost, AP2 can 2hko a lot of things it otherwise could not. For instance offensive P2 is ordinarily doing this much to offensive Mew:

252 SpAtk Porygon2 (+SpAtk) Tri Attack vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Mew: 36.36% - 43.11%

But after Analytic:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Porygon2 (+SpAtk) Tri Attack vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Mew: 47.51% - 55.72%

If Chansey does come down, it will make P2 a sad pony. But P2 can still hit stuff very hard, so it's entirely possible to use it as a bulky offensive Pokemon, like a Specs Slowbro might be used. The Analytic boost goes a long way.

[W_M]

Originally Posted by Fat PsYch071c

I have no idea where to begin....I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about with those calcs lol. Anyway, these are two completely different pokemon who fill completely different niches, Chansey being a special (and often physical) wall and P2 being an offensive tank as well as a utility counter to many common threats. Don't just try to distinguish a pokemon from another by running an inferior set, as you apperently are going to do. If you think the other poke works better, then use it. You are gimping yourself otherwise.

Hi Psycho, I'm (sometimes) Blacky in PO. He's speaking about this:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82612

I hope it could help you...

[minime1164]

honestly, im curious as to why cofagrigus isnt uu/ou yet, and is stuck in the ru tier.

[NGC-2024]

Another interesting poke from lower tiers is Cinccino. I can see WHY some people don't use it, being somewhat inconsistent and all with its coverage moves relying on rng. But it seriously is a cool pokemon. Its faster than Flygon and can be more powerful. Seriously, someone try Adamant Scarf on the little guy. Maybe even run it in conjunction with Flygon. winkwonk ;)

[Iridium]

I run band/LO cinccino on a lot of my teams. usually adamant since that outspeeds 100s, and 105-110s aren't that common, and it isn't good against them anyway. Yeah, the huge random variation in damage is lame, but the average damage is really good. 3 hits of adamant band tail slap (the average number of hits) does the same damage as jolly band flygon outrage. Just waiting for skill link to be released so it'll be more consistent.

[jamashawalker]

Originally Posted by Fat minime1164

honestly, im curious as to why cofagrigus isnt uu/ou yet, and is stuck in the ru tier.

Lack of recovery move. Doesnt hit hard enough with shadow ball and while its ability is great. Its a one shot at best. It gets worn down too easily. Though ill say the trick room+nastyplot set is pretty devastating and scary. Thats where it really shines at

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by Fat jamashawalker

Though ill say the trick room+nastyplot set is pretty devastating and scary. Thats where it really shines at

QFT. Its the reason its the best Pokemon in RU atm and I'd be interested to see if a successful team can be built around it here.

[Adam Lambert]

Originally Posted by Fat NGC-2024

Another interesting poke from lower tiers is Cinccino. I can see WHY some people don't use it, being somewhat inconsistent and all with its coverage moves relying on rng. But it seriously is a cool pokemon. Its faster than Flygon and can be more powerful. Seriously, someone try Adamant Scarf on the little guy. Maybe even run it in conjunction with Flygon. winkwonk ;)

Cinccino is like Ambipom, only a lot worse, which is saying a lot. However, Cinccino lacks U-turn and Pursuit, this fact is depressing. It also has to rely on Skill Link to do mediocre damage, which is no fun. Although, I can see him being of some use, with Bullet Seed and Rock Blast, which are cool moves.

The fact it outspeeds Flygon when it can't do much, other than getting OHKO'd by Outrage, to it is not saying a lot, if it had Icicle Spear your Flygon argument would make sense.

[PsYch071c]

As jamasha said, Cofagrigus just doesn't hit hard enough before it dies, and takes way to much setup to kill things. It takes at least 2, sometimes 3 turns to set up enough to 1HKO most threats, and by then it has already died, been statused, or been phazed. Spikes support is the only way I could see it being useful, because it would give Cofag plenty of crucial KOs at +2. The other reason I think Cofag isn't amazing is the prevalence of Substitute users in the tier. Sub allows pokemon such as Chandelure to stall out Trick Room while giving them a free sub once it has been stalled out, something that you can rarely afford against a poke as dangerous as Chandelure. But if you need a Heracross counter on an offensive team, it can be pretty damn useful, because it does still put a lot of pressure on the opponent.

[kokoloko*]

No no. Cinccino is actually better than Ambipom; and it does have U-turn, btw.

Ambipom is literally worse than Cinccino, so I definitely condone this discussion. Carry on.

[Iridium]

Cinccino doesn't have fake out, but hits harder than ambipom. Return is 102 BP, double hit is 105, and tail slap is 112.5 on average. Then bullet seed and rock blast are great coverage moves. One-shotting things like rhyperior and (with rocks) physically defensive zapdos is pretty nice. The bad part is you have a ~40% chance to do only 2 hits and fail to KO (and of course you only get the 4 or 5 hits when someone switches to a resist). Because of that I won't try argue that it's actually good until dream world happens.

[SStats]

Regarding Chansey, I don't think we have *too* much to worry about. The months are weighted by 5/6 most recent month, 1/8 middle month, and 1/24 earliest month in the period. This past month, there was a 48% chance of seeing Chansey once in 20 battles. The month before that, the chance was 49%. This month, the chance only needs to be 50.25% to counterbalance these two months. Only the last month has a significant effect on the statistics, and Chansey is almost exactly on the borderline for qualifying as OU anyway.

50.25% means that the probability of not seeing her once in 20 battles has to be 0.966177, which means about 3.38% usage. This means ~1,000 more teams that appear on the ladder have to feature Chansey than did last month, not accounting for the fact that there might be more people laddering this month since many more people are on summer vacation. So while I don't think we can collectively put Chansey in OU, it's very possible that she'll get there on her own.

[TheBaron]

I really want to enlighten people as to what a pathetic Pokémon Ambipom is. It is not valid in UU. It is outclassed by TechniTop, FONG Hitmonlee, Cinccino and Gallade. Any respectable Rock or Steel type can tank Ambipom's pathetic Low Sweeps and set up Rocks or Screens (Bronzong) or whatever. Its speed is good, but not good enough to be superior.

[jamashawalker]

Im not doing this to support Aimbipom vs Ciccino, but just posting calcs to show how its not entirely walled by steels/rocks

Jolly Aimbipom LO Low Kick Vs.

4/0 Cobalion = 70.6% - 83.6%

252/252 Bronzong= 23.1% - 27.2%

252/0 Escavilier= 33.1% - 39.2%

252/0 Empoelon= 56.5% - 66.7%

252/0 Registeel= 54.9% - 64.8%

252/0 Rhyperior= 38.9% - 45.9%

4/0 Omastar= 63.1% - 74.5%

4/0 Kabutops= 77.9% - 91.6%




And with all that im seeing just bronzong and escavilier being the only consisten safe switch into Ambipom. Cause a well predicted low kick spells out doom for the majority of these pokemon. And bronzong isnt exactly the most threatening to many teams once its in. Unlike escavilier who can also checkmate ambipom with pursuit. Again just to show some calcs

[alexwolf]

^ Cinccino has WUS, which is boosted to a 90 BP with Technician. The only plus that Ambipom has over Cinccino is Technician Fake Out... Whether this is enough for one of them to be on UU, and the other in NU, is up to you to decide. Also Cinccino hits harder in average and has other good coverage options that Ambipom lacks (Rock Blast and Bullet Seed).

My opinion, is that Ambipom is a bag full of shit, that wouldn't even be good in RU, and i cannot find a single reason as to why people are using it. The only one that i can find is noobs saying ''omg STAB Technician priority that immobilizes your target is awesome!!! '' .

EDIT: Btw what happened with Sand Veil? Weren't we supposed to get an answer on Saturday/Sunday?

[pharaohcalvin]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Btw what happened with Sand Veil? Weren't we supposed to get an answer on Saturday/Sunday?

I am kinda wondering about that too.

[Heysup]

Waiting on result to be posted / final decisions as far as I know.

[Godsend]

What is the appeal of Technitop? I've been running into it all over the place and can not really see why it is that useful.

[DetroitLolcat]

It's not that useful. TechniTop is a rather mediocre Pokemon because all it does is abuse priority attacks while wasting itself to Life Orb recoil, and priority is not that important in UU. There are better revenge killers in UU such as Scarf <anything> that can hit harder and not take recoil. Hitmontop is vastly overrated in this metagame, IMO. The worst part is that it can't even bluff the defensive set because as soon as you switch it in and Intimidate doesn't function, you know it's TechniTop. There are so many viable Choice Scarfers that can fill TechniTop's role that there's no point in using offensive Hitmontop most of the time. Unless you need priority badly, and you probably don't, then there are better Pokemon to use.

[Godsend]

Those were my thoughts exactly. And, Technitop either wastes HP spinning or wastes his potential as a spinner. The only priority that I ever use on Top is Sucker Punch, which is mostly only good for Chand. The main advantage I gather from Technitop is that it can put a huge ass dent in Stoutland with Mach Punch, but other then that its usefulness is very limited.

[Heysup]

Well if you need a revenge killer / rapid spinner he is probably the best bet.

[Forsety]

Problem is the two simply don't mix, there is a reason most of the top spinners in the game are all defensively built. Even the occasional Rapid Spin Starmie in OU packs Recover. I'll echo sentiments that Ambipom is a waste of space I've lost count how many times I've gotten off to a 6-5 start simply from smashing the thing with Crobat head on. Cincinno is where the real threat is the fact alone that you can predict his moves but it's still dangerous tells you a lot.

I'm going to take this opportunity to bring up as well that the UU Council members need to make a decision soon on both Keldeo and Chansey.

Chansey is a well overdue issue which was left unfinished without a final verdict before his departure towards OU. However with the imminent threat of it returning a verdict needs to be reached on it. Fact is before it's departure it was already heading towards a possible ban with being auto-suspect before the system was changed.

Keldeo is another major issue, anyone who has ever played the massively broken DW environments will know that even there Keldeo towers over the bulk of the entire OU game offensively. It doesn't take a lot to realize he may not be suitable for the UU game. What I propose is a grace period where he'll be temp banned whilst he is unleashed on OU and if he goes OU (likely) that's the problem sorted. However if he ends up falling to UU which I very much doubt then we'll see.

Admittedly with the upcoming B/W2 there may be major changes again such as new DW moves and move tutors. But these are two issues I honestly don't think are going to change a awful lot.