np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

[hilarious]

I am sure Stoutland is not broken at alllllllll in any way shape or form because the following reasons (I will repeat some stuff just so its easier to see a whole list of reasons)...

1. It has lots and lots of counters and checks. As in anything that resists Normal with good defenses or anything that resists Normal that is not weak to one of its (very few) coverage move, Crunch or Fire Fang or possibly Wild Charge which is really own good for Empoleon. Others good ways to deal with it include Technitop and your own Gligar. That Normal resists list includes but is not limited to Rhyperior, Aggron, Sableye, Dusclops, Cobalion, Registeel, Escalivier and Empoleon. The ones that get screwed over completely by coverage moves are not counters, I submit, but are very good checks for CB variants of Stoutland. I assume we are talking about CB Stout since LO Stout really sucks because it chips away your bulk and you get an endless stream of stuff that survive Return by 1%. I question how something with so many reliable checks and counters can be considered broken. Obviously Stoutland limits diversity in the game, every decent Pokemon does that, but there are still so many choices to beat Stout with its not even funny.

2. It is weather dependent, a lesser reason for sure, but one nonetheless. If it gets its sand somehow sapped away, perhaps by a zealous RD Kingdra, then Stout can for the most part give up a chance of a clean sweep. Stoutland also means you NEED to have a Hippo on your team.

3. It is hazard dependent, combined with the above reason, it means Stoutland is really just another sweeper. It absolutely needs either Spikes or some random lure like Choice Specs HP Grass Registeel to kill Rhyperior and friend (just kidding) to have a chance of overcoming sch solid counters. SR is of course almost mandatory (and therefore broken, but that's another story). So basically you're saying, this thing gets sweeps all the time as long as it has good weather, hazards, and dead to almost dead counters. Reminds me of Seaking really.

4. It is predictable, as in, it will be running a CB set with the only wildcard being Wild Charge or Pursuit way more than half the time. Personally I do not know why people haven't tried Howl to muscle through stuff, but the fact is, people really use only one set. Once you see it on team preview, you better realize you shouldn't sack your Rhyperior trying to tank a Zapdos or you better realize you shouldn't try to use your Bronzong to set up SR on a possible U-turn from Darmantian. People are stupid enough to let their Stoutland counters die because they make bad guesses (I see predictions as guesses) and then complain when Stoutland sweeps them?

Essentially what I am saying is the only reason Stoutland could be banned is because it is too good of a cleaner. Yet I see the conditions of the actual sweep as way too narrow for Stoutland to be broken

[Insomniac.]

The reason so few people are using Hitmontop is that it's very easily to just completely wall it was something like Zapdos or a ghost.

[/B/utterfree]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

I am sure Stoutland is not broken at alllllllll in any way shape or form because the following reasons (I will repeat some stuff just so its easier to see a whole list of reasons)...

Okay. I'll be fair and open-minded with this particular argument. I may not exactly agree that Stoutland is not too good for UU, but I'm certain I can handle myself against this argument without popping a vein. In fact, some of these points I agree with myself.

1. It has lots and lots of counters and checks. As in anything that resists Normal with good defenses or anything that resists Normal that is not weak to one of its (very few) coverage move, Crunch or Fire Fang or possibly Wild Charge which is really own good for Empoleon.

Lots of overpowered Pokemon come with a slew of counters and checks for each respective set of them. I can see how some of these can cripple Stoutland if given the chance, but I'm fairly certain the same could be said regarding most of the previous Suspects.

Others good ways to deal with it include Technitop and your own Gligar. That Normal resists list includes but is not limited to Rhyperior, Aggron, Sableye, Dusclops, Cobalion, Registeel, Escalivier and Empoleon. The ones that get screwed over completely by coverage moves are not counters, I submit, but are very good checks for CB variants of Stoutland.

Fair enough, I reckon. I can see how Technitop castrates the pooch, but I'm a little hesitant on some of those other names bar Sableye, Rhyperior and Aggron, even on a CB set.

I assume we are talking about CB Stout since LO Stout really sucks because it chips away your bulk and you get an endless stream of stuff that survive Return by 1%.

What about Zoidberg? I mean... Expert Belt. I can concur that LO Stout is simply contradictory to its decent bulk, and agree that Life Orb is not enough to ensure the demise of Stoutland's opponents. Although, that 1% health will promptly be chipped away by Sand, usually.

I question how something with so many reliable checks and counters can be considered broken.

Blaziken is another good example of something with a plethora of decent Pokemon who can counter it who is now sitting in Ubers.

Obviously Stoutland limits diversity in the game, every decent Pokemon does that, but there are still so many choices to beat Stout with its not even funny.

You only named 10 Pokes that counter/check Stoutland, at least one of which isn't UU (Aggron). Of the roster of names, you admitted that only a few of those actual names reliably counter Stoutland.

2. It is weather dependent, a lesser reason for sure, but one nonetheless. If it gets its sand somehow sapped away, perhaps by a zealous RD Kingdra, then Stout can for the most part give up a chance of a clean sweep. Stoutland also means you NEED to have a Hippo on your team.

Excadrill was just as weather dependent as Stoutland was. Outside of Sand, Exca was pretty counterable...

Other weathers aren't as popular in UU as Sand is nowadays. We pretty much made that problem ourselves by banning Drought as well as Snover and Abomasnow. However, outside of Kingdra and Arcanine, who else uses Rain Dance/Sunny Day on a set that isn't otherwise unorthodox?

Of course, Sand's popularity still persists despite the reliance of an NFE Pokemon in order to make permanent Sand.

3. It is hazard dependent, combined with the above reason, it means Stoutland is really just another sweeper. It absolutely needs either Spikes or some random lure like Choice Specs HP Grass Registeel to kill Rhyperior and friend (just kidding) to have a chance of overcoming sch solid counters. SR is of course almost mandatory (and therefore broken, but that's another story). So basically you're saying, this thing gets sweeps all the time as long as it has good weather, hazards, and dead to almost dead counters. Reminds me of Seaking really.

'Twould be the fault of the opposing player for not disposing of the hazards prior, by either not having Nidoking/Roserade around to negate Toxic Spikes or not considering a Rapid Spinner such as Blastoise. That Stoutland provokes people to make those Pokemon see more action forcibly is a bit jarring, even if such considerations for teammates should be common sense in UU.

4. It is predictable, as in, it will be running a CB set with the only wildcard being Wild Charge or Pursuit way more than half the time. Personally I do not know why people haven't tried Howl to muscle through stuff, but the fact is, people really use only one set. Once you see it on team preview, you better realize you shouldn't sack your Rhyperior trying to tank a Zapdos or you better realize you shouldn't try to use your Bronzong to set up SR on a possible U-turn from Darmantian. People are stupid enough to let their Stoutland counters die because they make bad guesses (I see predictions as guesses) and then complain when Stoutland sweeps them?

People usually only ran one set for Deoxys-D, but that was because it was also the most effective one in the UU tier. An element of the metagame would have to change in order for people to make Stoutland less predictable. I personally commend anyone who uses the Morning Glory Arcanine set, or anybody who sets up their own Swift Swimmer using Rain Dance. Hell, I'd even give someone a free order of something from Burger King for still using Hail in UU.

Essentially what I am saying is the only reason Stoutland could be banned is because it is too good of a cleaner. Yet I see the conditions of the actual sweep as way too narrow for Stoutland to be broken

Again, I agree: Stoutland is as counterable as any Pokemon. However, even the most counterable Pokemon have been banned despite these same hurdles that Stout has to go through.

[hilarious]

1. Blaziken is infinitely stronger than Stout (that was OU I see it to be irrelavant)

1 and a half. Excadrill is infinitely stronger than Stout (also OU)

1.75 Expert Belt works (actually it probably doesn't) because it gives you surprise KOs because everyone thinks you are CB because everyone uses CB.

2. You are not overpowered if upwards of half a hundred Pokemon (guessing here) check you. See http://www.smogon.com/bw/types/rock

3. Your ideas of creativity are crappy in real play. If you are going to go for creative but useless you might as well use Pikachu. Morning glory Arcanine is just shitty, any non-defensive Arcanine is shitty because there are better Fires to use. In fact, defensive Arcanine isn't good unless your team needs its Intimidate/phaze/tankish niche.

4. Tyranitar is good. Therefore depending on weather in OU is good, as far as sand goes. Hippowdon jr. is bad. Like your argument (just kidding). Therefore relying on a bad poke to take up a slot on your team is also bad.

On a side note I think listing ten checks and counters is more than enough.

[Insomniac.]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

1. Blaziken is infinitely stronger than Stout (that was OU I see it to be irrelavant)

1 and a half. Excadrill is infinitely stronger than Stout (also OU)
The strength of the mons are irrelevant. /b/utterfree is trying to draw parallels with OU and UU, and how those two broken pokemon had characteristics similar to Stoutland in UU.
1.75 Expert Belt works (actually it probably doesn't) because it gives you surprise KOs because everyone thinks you are CB because everyone uses CB.

I agree that expert belt probably doesn't work too well. There's a reason everyone uses CB. It's the best set. Especially since Return has no weaknesses anyway. And Stoutland still can't muscle through the likes of Rhyperior and co., even with switching moves.

2. You are not overpowered if upwards of half a hundred Pokemon (guessing here) check you. See [URL="http://www.smogon.com/bw/types/rock"]http://www.smogon.com/bw/types/rock

And how many are actually viable in this meta? How many can actually tank an attack? How many get OHKOd by a coverage move? (Your opponent is going to know exactly what you switchin, if you only carry one stoutland check.

3. Your ideas of creativity are crappy in real play. If you are going to go for creative but useless you might as well use Pikachu. Morning glory Arcanine is just shitty, any non-defensive Arcanine is shitty because there are better Fires to use. In fact, defensive Arcanine isn't good unless your team needs its Intimidate/phaze/tankish niche.

I personally think Sunny Day Arcanine is a menace, but I agree something shouldn't be banned because it stifles old strategies.



On a side note I think listing ten checks and counters is more than enough.

[DestinyUnknown]

I will not quote anybody because there are too many things I don't even get why they have been mentioned -.-''

1 Don't compare Stoutland with Blaziken (with 120/110 attacking stats, awesome type coverage and 0 real counters, the ''counters'' depended on the set, don't say Slowbro because it got wrecked by the mixed blaziken and etc), don't compare it either with Excadrill, who has a 135 Attack Stat, a GREAT STAB on Earthquake (seriously this is very important), Swords Dance and Rapid Spin. And don't say it had a lot of checks lol -.-'' It also limited much more because to check Excadrill you needed a pokemon that almost completely screwed the momentum of an ofensive team. On the other hand, pokemon like Rhyperior or Cobalion are good ofensively on their own.

2 Expert Belt is silly on a pokemon that 85% if the time is using Frustration, which isn't supereffective against anything. If you want a gimmicky item for Stoutland use Muscle Band, at least that still boost his power, even if it's just a bit.

I will stop there.

Don't get me wrong though, I don't like Sand presence on the metagame but Stoutland is not really broken by itself imo.

[hilarious]

Look I found another couple lists of checks and counters http://www.smogon.com/bw/types/steel and http://www.smogon.com/bw/types/ghost

Don't be stupid and say strength is irrelevant people unless you want to go to Serebii's anime fan section.

[spuds4ever]

Seeing as this sand debate seems to have established its points and no progress is really being made, what do people think of spinner-setters? When donphan left, there were no setter-spinners in UU and people didn't bother looking to RU. But what about Kabutops and Claydol now that they're our only choices, opinions?

I've been using kabutops a fair bit as a good offensive utility mon, combining stab priority and reliably getting up rocks as well as completely smashing the likes of chandelure and mismagius with stone edge, but his rock typing really lets him down sometimes seeing how common fighting and ground attacks are but he does make a good stop to CB darm and victini, or at least discourages them from v-create and FB spam, which is always nice.

[/B/utterfree]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

Look I found another couple lists of checks and counters http://www.smogon.com/bw/types/steel and http://www.smogon.com/bw/types/ghost

I'm not finding this funny - at this point you're talking down Stoutland just to talk down Stout, and being by-and-large ignorant of the counterarguments made. Most of the Ghost and Steel-types in UU get heinously destroyed by Crunch and Fire Fang (respectively) - a smart Stoutland player will make those lists nonexistent as counters.

Don't be stupid and say strength is irrelevant people unless you want to go to Serebii's anime fan section.

Now you're just being condescending. I was trying to draw parallels with other broken Pokemon in both OU and UU to establish a point that Stoutland gets over its hurdles just as easily as the other Pokemon who were banned before it.

Outside of THAT...

I am a fan of Kabutops. The next time I play in the RU/UU metagames I will try to make a team with him as a setter-spinner. Tops has a better offensive typing than Donphan, as well as a better movepool.

[PsYch071c]

“The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.”
― Albert Einstein

If you want to succeed in anything, specifically Pokemon in this case, you have to make changes and adapt to the game in its current form. If your team repeatedly gets destroyed by any major threat in the current UU metagame, do not keep using that team, or at least make a change that will allow it to succeed. Anyone who added a Froslass to their team in the Deoxys-D metagame can testify how easy it was to get setup opportunites, because Deo was practically begging Froslass to set up on it. The same goes for Stoutland, and by adding a Rhyperior, Cobalion, Bronzong, or any other pokes able to take advantage of the free switch Stout gives you, you will be able to succeed. Please just try to adapt to the threats of the metagame before you start whining about how broken they are.

In conclusion, Stout is not the thing that breaks sand, because it is easily countered by and taken advantage of by numerous pokes. Sand Veil, on the other hand, makes sand uncompetitive because there is nothing you can do in your power to adapt to it, and it can beat you no matter how prepared you might be.

PS: Also don't do stupid shit like letting your Bronzong be heavily damaged or killed just to set up rocks, if you play smart sand teams can do absolutely nothing to stop you.

[alexwolf]

Yeah sand is just fine, but Sand Veil isn't. Broken or not, Sand Veil makes the game absolute shit, and takes away any reliance on skill, making luck the main factor... Yeah sounds competitive to me...

[DetroitLolcat]

Okay, everyone stop blowing Sand Veil out of proportion. I'm not going to give the usual spiel about how luck is a positive element to the game because everyone has their own opinion on the issue and I'm not convincing anyone anyway. Even if Sand Veil was "uncompetitive" (which does not mean ban-worthy*), it still isn't worht banning the in current metagame because Sand Veil has little effect in the metagame anyway.

Look, anyone want to take a guess as to how many Pokemon in UU use Sand Veil? Hint, it's one. And this Pokemon isn't even that great anyway. Sure, Gligar might be a pretty good wall in UU, but his "abuse" of Sand Veil isn't that great anyway. The only two methods of dealing damage he has are Earthquakes coming off of one of the most pitiful Attack stats I've ever seen and Toxic. Toxic is resisted by a ton of Pokemon, and GligarQuakes really don't scare much off.

Originally Posted by Fat Someone a couple posts above me

Sand Veil, on the other hand, makes sand uncompetitive because there is nothing you can do in your power to adapt to it, and it can beat you no matter how prepared you might be.

"
Start of turn 1
Ludicolo used Rain Dance!
It started to rain!
"
Nope.


Yeah, there's two other weathers viable in UU, and even if you don't want to run a weather team to counteract Sand then why not stick Sunny Day or Rain Dance on one Pokemon to change the weather after the lil' Hippo's dead? Changing one move on your team to counteract a playstyle seems reasonable.

I'm not even going to entertain the people who think Stoutland of all things is broken. That dog requires so much prediction to use that he's very difficult to use properly. I know he's a fantastic Pokemon, but he's not invincible by any means.

This metagame right now is fantastic. Let's stop going on a witch-hunt for broken stuff and actually enjoy the metagame. The Senate did its job of balancing the metagame and the OU players were kind enough not to throw something retarded like Scrafty or Toxicroak at us, so let's just enjoy the game. And if we have to ban something, can we make it something reasonable and not sand veil.

*If you respond with "uncompetitive=broken IMO", then please stop confusing fact with opinion. Thanks.

[hilarious]

Originally Posted by Fat DetroitLolcat

Okay, everyone stop blowing Sand Veil out of proportion. I'm not going to give the usual spiel about how luck is a positive element to the game because everyone has their own opinion on the issue and I'm not convincing anyone anyway. Even if Sand Veil was "uncompetitive" (which does not mean ban-worthy*), it still isn't worht banning the in current metagame because Sand Veil has little effect in the metagame anyway.

Look, anyone want to take a guess as to how many Pokemon in UU use Sand Veil? Hint, it's one. And this Pokemon isn't even that great anyway. Sure, Gligar might be a pretty good wall in UU, but his "abuse" of Sand Veil isn't that great anyway. The only two methods of dealing damage he has are Earthquakes coming off of one of the most pitiful Attack stats I've ever seen and Toxic. Toxic is resisted by a ton of Pokemon, and GligarQuakes really don't scare much off.



"
Start of turn 1
Ludicolo used Rain Dance!
It started to rain!
"
Nope.


Yeah, there's two other weathers viable in UU, and even if you don't want to run a weather team to counteract Sand then why not stick Sunny Day or Rain Dance on one Pokemon to change the weather after the lil' Hippo's dead? Changing one move on your team to counteract a playstyle seems reasonable.

I'm not even going to entertain the people who think Stoutland of all things is broken. That dog requires so much prediction to use that he's very difficult to use properly. I know he's a fantastic Pokemon, but he's not invincible by any means.

This metagame right now is fantastic. Let's stop going on a witch-hunt for broken stuff and actually enjoy the metagame. The Senate did its job of balancing the metagame and the OU players were kind enough not to throw something retarded like Scrafty or Toxicroak at us, so let's just enjoy the game. And if we have to ban something, can we make it something reasonable and not sand veil.

*If you respond with "uncompetitive=broken IMO", then please stop confusing fact with opinion. Thanks.

It is difficult to enjoy a game that is determined by a RNG which is what sand veil often does...

As for setter/spinners I never used Kabutops but I have seen it a fair amount of times on the ladder. Before it might have had decent surprise factor as a spinner but now its generally pretty obvious if it has Rapid Spin on its set (my opponent has no other obvious spinner and is using Yanmega). I never had any problem blocking it because Sableye deals a handy burn to it which is accurate enough since Kabutops relies on Stone Edge itself a lot to hurt you decently. Smeargle is also a setter/spinner too (not that it would be good at it), just saying.

Claydol though I have been using and although its pretty perfect as a team member, I think it is only good because it is on a full stall team. I am really strapped for roles as I have to get my hazards up, protect them, and then deal with stupid shit that breaks apart stall like NP Togekiss, so chunking a spinner/SR user/Fighting, Ground and Rock resist together is beyond helpful. Pairing it with Umbreon and makes it so much more sturdy, not to mention its defenses are really good to begin with. Although it can't get past spinblockers, the switch in to said blocker is generally my cue to set up Rocks and maybe throw around a Toxic.

Essentially I see Kabutops as good but not a perfect spinner and Claydol as useful in a very narrow set of circumstances.

[SJCrew]

My opinion of Claydol is that the worst thing to happen to a Pokemon with such a specific role is for it to fail its mission statement under reasonably common conditions. If last month's usage statistics are to be believed, ~25% of teams are carrying some form of Ghost. Claydol can't beat any of them. I suppose 75% of battles is still a reasonably high percentage, but that feeling of helplessness that occurs when you're facing any sort of spinblocker has to be unpleasant. Let's just hope not many of those people are making Yanmega the star of their team.

[Heysup]

I'm not sure what the standard is for Claydol anymore, but I'm definitely going to suggest that if you're scared of Ghosts, you may want to try using Psyshock / Earth Power and use 156 SpA EVs to essentially guarantee a 2HKO on Mismagius (Psyshock) and a OHKO on Chandelure (Earth Power), both with Stealth Rock. It also has a small chance to 2HKO Froslass with Earth Power and 3HKOes Spiritomb, though you need to be careful with Sucker Punch etc.

It's not THAT bad, though I won't argue that it's a good Pokemon...it's a very niche Pokemon that has a specific set of jobs that only it can do and it CAN do them decently.

[jamashawalker]

Originally Posted by Fat DetroitLolcat

"
Start of turn 1
Ludicolo used Rain Dance!
It started to rain!
"
Nope.


Yeah, there's two other weathers viable in UU, and even if you don't want to run a weather team to counteract Sand then why not stick Sunny Day or Rain Dance on one Pokemon to change the weather after the lil' Hippo's dead? Changing one move on your team to counteract a playstyle seems reasonable.


The Senate did its job of balancing the metagame and the OU players were kind enough not to throw something retarded like Scrafty or Toxicroak at us, so let's just enjoy the game.

You know I havent played the metagame in a couple months, but im sure i can predict that people arent using Rain/sun teams which is sorta sad considering how powerful they are and with the complaints of sand. Even a simple sleeper weather inducer would be perfect! which is not going so far to counter a strategy that isnt even broken. I would like to see a counter arguement against the reasoning of NOT having a random weather inducer or just using a rain team in general

lol Sorry LolCat but have to call you out on the toxicroak reference because that pokemon is my pride and joy that needs to be UU soon!! :/

[casey90]

I think toxicroak would be rather underwhelming in UU. The biggest thing he's got for him in OU is 18.75% passive health recovery in rain, coupled with the fact that his speed is decent if you run a beneficial nature in OU. The thing's that are faster are for the most part not that threatening to him. I could elaborate on this point but I think most people here already get it.

On another note I've been using the acrobatics drifblim set lately, my goodness is that thing a monster. I honestly thought more people would expect it but people still leave in there roserades to get killed by Acro, then there Rotom-H get's D-bonded as it tries to volt switch for the RK. I don't remember who invented it but I tip my hat to you good sir (or lady if that applies). It's my second favorite mon on the team, behind technitop.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Sand Veil is annoying, sure, but the only Pokemon that even get Sand Veil aren't that great. None of them have more than 85 speed (Gligar, Cacturne, and Sandslash). Furthermore, any water faster than Cacturne can eventually kill them all with Ice Beam (Cacturne is slow anyway). None of the three are really too great at abusing sand and functioning outside of it simultaneously either, so to speak. Gligar is a really sturdy wall, but 75 Attack doesn't really stand out as scary. Sandslash is slow and can be revenge killed easily after its boost. Plus, it needs Stone Edge for coverage, which has the same exact 80% accuracy that everyone is complaining about. Cacturne gets priority, but it is slow and really frail, so anything with a neutral move can break its substitutes. Finally, all of them are royally screwed over by Burns and none other than Gligar get reliable recovery to heal off their substitutes (which they all need for their garbage Special Defense, and Gligar would only get one move in this case with Roost, Substitute, and Probably Swords Dance). If the opponent is unlucky, you may take something down. However, if you are unlucky, they might end up being dead weight.

Sand Veil can be good and is annoying, but it is a gamble to use just as much as it can be annoying to defeat.

Also, if Stoutland is causing problems, Registeel and Rhyperior are two of very many that deal with him.

[kokoloko*]

Originally Posted by Fat DetroitLolcat

*If you respond with "uncompetitive=broken IMO", then please stop confusing fact with opinion. Thanks.

I'm sorry for singling out this very specific line in the post but its quite clearly directed at me (maybe others as well but whatever) since I said those exact words earlier in the thread. Now, please explain to me how you can possibly think there's anything objective about tiering in the first place? A vote is a collection of opinions, and that's how tiering has always worked. So yeah, please stop being so condescending when trying to get your point across. We get it, you don't mind people handing control of the game to the RNG--a lot of us do.

[hilarious]

Collectively we pretty much beat this sand veil topic to death, so as my final words on this, let me say I am a simple guy who best understands things when they are simple. It seems as if choosing what and what not to ban is not so simple though with all this philosophy of Smogon and precedence and some of you using really big words like "[beat sand teams by] forcing your opponent into difficult positions by their exploiting their tactical inability to exert synergistic pressure". FlareBlitz said that, sorry I don't know how to quote bits of text, I guess I am too simple for that.

The way I see it, correct me if I am wrong, everyone here seeks a healthy UU metagame. And by healthy I simply mean a metagame that allows for diversity, skill and no overly centralizing forces. Also everyone in this thread is reporting their view on the metagame, however flawed may they be, and what they want to make this even better than it already is. If you cannot ban sand veil because technical reasons, that is no excuse not to discuss it because we are all searching for a perfect metagame; even if it cannot be achieved, the higher we aim for the farther we get.

Expanding on that, even if sand veil has little effect on the metagame, that statement in and of itself acknowledges it does have an effect. Surely it is not a good effect? As Dr. Rev. MLK jr. once said, injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We all know it is bull poop, make it go away is what I am saying.

So, simply put, I think we should all ask ourselves,"Does sand veil make the game healthier or at least does not negatively affect it?" If you think not, you have no right to try and keep that sand veil here because even if it scores you wins, you should be searching for what is good for the metagame, not your win ratios.

If you think sand veil does no harm to the game, let me say why I disagree. I really like Pokemon. Pokemon is fun. If ever I needed a philosophy for this game (god forbid), then that is the one I would use. Pokemon is fun. I do not really understand why it is so fun, but when you take or add little things to it, it becomes apparent Pokemon is not so fun anymore. One of these things is bullshitmishax (BSMH), to which sand veil greatly contributes. If you honestly enjoy losing games because of a RNG then I have no argument for you. Unlike Criticial Hits, which is also hax, sand veil does not balance out anything. Critical hits help ensure that CM Cune and friend are not exceedingly strong thus balancing the game and making it healthier. My logic, lets call it that, does not therefore support a CH ban.

Also even if my opinion is only mine, I know there are some that feel strongly for the ban too outside of what has been said in this thread. When laddering with my sand veil team, my mother and I were called very many names, none of which were positive. I guess it could have just been in the heat of the moment, but when my mother was so viciously and personally attacked I could not help but feel nobody really likes sand veil. Why the hell are we keeping it then?

Even if our opinions on BSMH are just that -opinions- I have enough faith in all of you that an overwhelming majority opinion should mandate a discussion of a ban, at least. If so many of us think this is complete bull poop, then at some point it becomes complete bull poop. (This is not, as I fear some of you will think, saying if everyone thinks two and two make five, then two and two make five. Addition is based on facts, I am saying though if everyone thinks BSMH is bull poop then it is bull poop, an opinion.) Please make that point now.

[casey90]

Well considering the track record of evasion abilities, it would seem that SV would be getting the boot right? However I look at the other aspect here. Look at the difference in abusers between the previous SV monster (Garchomp) and the more recent SC abusers, Froslass, Mamoswine and Glaceon. The difference is, all of these pokemon were great on their own. Our current lineup of sandveil abusers are Gligar, Cacturne and Sandslash. The difference? One miss against garchomp was the difference between winning and losing. One against Froslass meant multiple layers of spikes and one or more paralyzed mons. Mamo could kill your slowbro with EQ because scald missed. Glaceon finished off milotic with it's sub intact. Granted those are specific examples but the point stands, the amount of trouble each one of those could cost often came down to one miss, therefore taking a lot of the game out of your hands. Consider the current lineup again, how much damage can they cause? Will a miss determine the outcome of the match?

The point I'm getting at is this, are Cacturne, Gligar, and Sandslash powerful enough without sandveil to where a miss could make them broken? I could see how one could argue for Cacturne maybe, Besides sandveil and maybe Drain punch it's just an inferior bisharp offensively. Gligar is pathetically weak, however has an insane defense/ defensive typing, Sandslash is kind of a middle ground between Cacturne and Gligar. Add to that they're all super slow. This part I'll admit I'm a little hazy on seeing as I never use sand veil sweepers, but I have used standard defensive gligar before in sand, it didn't impress me anymore with sand veil than without. So if anyone has superior input on the matter please correct me.

Going back to an age old argument here, I remember the point being brought up about rain. If Rain breaks just a one or a few pokemon, it's probably those pokemon that are broken. If rain however break most pokemon fit to abuse it, the playstyle itself it overpowered.

TL:DR If only cacturne (just an example) is broken then perhaps just ban cacturne

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat casey90

Well considering the track record of evasion abilities, it would seem that SV would be getting the boot right? However I look at the other aspect here. Look at the difference in abusers between the previous SV monster (Garchomp) and the more recent SC abusers, Froslass, Mamoswine and Glaceon. The difference is, all of these pokemon were great on their own. Our current lineup of sandveil abusers are Gligar, Cacturne and Sandslash. The difference? One miss against garchomp was the difference between winning and losing. One against Froslass meant multiple layers of spikes and one or more paralyzed mons. Mamo could kill your slowbro with EQ because scald missed. Glaceon finished off milotic with it's sub intact. Granted those are specific examples but the point stands, the amount of trouble each one of those could cost often came down to one miss, therefore taking a lot of the game out of your hands. Consider the current lineup again, how much damage can they cause? Will a miss determine the outcome of the match?

The point I'm getting at is this, are Cacturne, Gligar, and Sandslash powerful enough without sandveil to where a miss could make them broken? I could see how one could argue for Cacturne maybe, Besides sandveil and maybe Drain punch it's just an inferior bisharp offensively. Gligar is pathetically weak, however has an insane defense/ defensive typing, Sandslash is kind of a middle ground between Cacturne and Gligar. Add to that they're all super slow. This part I'll admit I'm a little hazy on seeing as I never use sand veil sweepers, but I have used standard defensive gligar before in sand, it didn't impress me anymore with sand veil than without. So if anyone has superior input on the matter please correct me.

Going back to an age old argument here, I remember the point being brought up about rain. If Rain breaks just a one or a few pokemon, it's probably those pokemon that are broken. If rain however break most pokemon fit to abuse it, the playstyle itself it overpowered.

TL:DR If only cacturne (just an example) is broken then perhaps just ban cacturne

It doesn't matter how they perform without SV. If SV makes them win games that they shouldn't then something is wrong. Have you ever been Toxic stalled to death by a Gligar, just because your only faster mon that could ohko Gligar missed, and then Gligar easily Toxic stalled you? If yes then you should see how unhealthy for the meta SV is.

And to anyone saying that Rain Dance exists, i have to say this... You think Rain Dance is enough of a factor to balance the misses that SV brings to the table? Because i think that the answer is definitely no.
One could argue for OU, that SV Gliscor is fine because there are Politoed and Ninetales, which have their fair share of usage (although i still don't think they are enough, especially considering that they all die from a +2 Gliscor). But to say that Rain Dance is popular enough in UU to rival SV misses is simply untrue.

[Godsend]

Originally Posted by Fat casey90

Well considering the track record of evasion abilities, it would seem that SV would be getting the boot right? However I look at the other aspect here. Look at the difference in abusers between the previous SV monster (Garchomp) and the more recent SC abusers, Froslass, Mamoswine and Glaceon. The difference is, all of these pokemon were great on their own. Our current lineup of sandveil abusers are Gligar, Cacturne and Sandslash. The difference? One miss against garchomp was the difference between winning and losing. One against Froslass meant multiple layers of spikes and one or more paralyzed mons. Mamo could kill your slowbro with EQ because scald missed. Glaceon finished off milotic with it's sub intact. Granted those are specific examples but the point stands, the amount of trouble each one of those could cost often came down to one miss, therefore taking a lot of the game out of your hands. Consider the current lineup again, how much damage can they cause? Will a miss determine the outcome of the match?

The point I'm getting at is this, are Cacturne, Gligar, and Sandslash powerful enough without sandveil to where a miss could make them broken? I could see how one could argue for Cacturne maybe, Besides sandveil and maybe Drain punch it's just an inferior bisharp offensively. Gligar is pathetically weak, however has an insane defense/ defensive typing, Sandslash is kind of a middle ground between Cacturne and Gligar. Add to that they're all super slow. This part I'll admit I'm a little hazy on seeing as I never use sand veil sweepers, but I have used standard defensive gligar before in sand, it didn't impress me anymore with sand veil than without. So if anyone has superior input on the matter please correct me.

Going back to an age old argument here, I remember the point being brought up about rain. If Rain breaks just a one or a few pokemon, it's probably those pokemon that are broken. If rain however break most pokemon fit to abuse it, the playstyle itself it overpowered.

TL:DR If only cacturne (just an example) is broken then perhaps just ban cacturne

If people keep complaining, more than likely Hippopotos is going to get banned to keep perma sand from the tier, just like what happened with Hail and Snow Cloak. Only a couple of Pokemon used Snow Cloak, but both Snover and Abomasnow got banned. So yeah, that's probably what's going to happen, if anything.

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

It doesn't matter how they perform without SV. If SV makes them win games that they shouldn't then something is wrong. Have you ever been Toxic stalled to death by a Gligar, just because your only faster mon that could ohko Gligar missed, and then Gligar easily Toxic stalled you? If yes then you should see how unhealthy for the meta SV is.

And to anyone saying that Rain Dance exists, i have to say this... You think Rain Dance is enough of a factor to balance the misses that SV brings to the table? Because i think that the answer is definitely no.
One could argue for OU, that SV Gliscor is fine because there are Politoed and Ninetales, which have their fair share of usage (although i still don't think they are enough, especially considering that they all die from a +2 Gliscor). But to say that Rain Dance is popular enough in UU to rival SV misses is simply untrue.

No. I can see hilarious's point: though its not a huge problem, its still a problem so we should get rid of it. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I do agree its very reasonable. But honestly Gligar is not that good. One miss does not a toxic stall make, and with only Toxic and EQ (of of a pathetic attack stat) to deal damage, Gligar cannot deal with a variety of threats. I have never had a pokemon that can reliablely beat Gligar in normal conditions, fail to beat Gligar with Sand Veil. Can you clarify your second point? What I got from it is since people don't use Rain Dance, it doesn't counter Sand Veil, which isn't true. Overall my point is this: if you think that at its base level, Sand Veil deserves to be banned, thats reasonable. But please don't exaggerate how good it is.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Ace Emerald

No. I can see hilarious's point: though its not a huge problem, its still a problem so we should get rid of it. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I do agree its very reasonable. But honestly Gligar is not that good. One miss does not a toxic stall make, and with only Toxic and EQ (of of a pathetic attack stat) to deal damage, Gligar cannot deal with a variety of threats. I have never had a pokemon that can reliablely beat Gligar in normal conditions, fail to beat Gligar with Sand Veil. Can you clarify your second point? What I got from it is since people don't use Rain Dance, it doesn't counter Sand Veil, which isn't true. Overall my point is this: if you think that at its base level, Sand Veil deserves to be banned, thats reasonable. But please don't exaggerate how good it is.

I am not exxagerating anything. I am not claiming that SV Gligar is broken inside sand, just uncompetitve.

Also in my second point i meant that RD is not used enough and is not viable enough to pose a serious threats against the SV abusers.

Finally Gligar's Atk stat is not pathetic, it is mediocre, and it is enough to beat almost anything that it cannot Toxic-stall (Crobat, Xatu and Bronzong are the only things that cannot be beaten by EQ + Toxic stall).